55 Votes

Has Lexus Really Missed The Mark This Badly With The LS600hL?

Agent009 submitted on 11/12/2007 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 12:40:13 PM

150 user comments | Category: Report Cards | Source: | SOURCE: www.thetruthaboutcars.com

Lexus has gone green.

That’s right. The Japanese luxury automaker’s website encourages actual and potential customers to explore eco-design and hybrid living. Meditative Asian music and beautiful nature photographs accompany the explanation: “Hybrid Living explores new ideas of how we can experience our lives in such a way that minimizes our impact on earth without sacrificing comfort and luxury.” Kinda makes me want to fire-up an incense stick, slip on some sandals and go for a slow Sunday afternoon drive in an ecologically-tuned Lexus. But my inner cynic won’t let me enjoy the ride. Despite Lexus’ posturing, the two-and-a-half ton LS600hL doesn’t run on herbal tea and happy thoughts.

The LS600hL is Abel to the LS460L’s Cain. Only the dashing “Hybrid”-embossed chrome swooshes across the door panel bottoms indicate the hL’s relative virtue. The LS remains a deeply anodyne design whose size and stance are the only indication that something expensive this way cometh. Still, bonus points for not following BMW into flame surfaced Hell, and the LS’ integrated exhaust pipes are plenty wikkid.

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Has Lexus Really Missed The Mark This Badly With The LS600hL?

About the Author

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
— Agent009 (View Profile)

User Comments

Believe It Or Not:

There IS a faction of the luxury car buying public that see LEXUS a the pinnacle of the genre, and are willing go pay whatever it takes to own the Best of the Breed (LS600h).

The LUXURY of Choice is The Only True Luxury!
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 12:52:38 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -9

BTW... I hope that DeBoosting The Truth makes You Feel Better, Because It doesn't Bother Me One Bit...

Happy Posting!
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:06:13 PM | | Votes: -6

which faction is that? Best of what breed? I find that amusing to think that the Lexus LS600h is the best of the $100k sedans. In a recent comparo, didnt it come in 4th place. lol ...
— BMW4me4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:29:13 PM | | Votes: 5

DaHarder,

You are so full of it. The LS600HL isnt even more fuel efficient than the regular model. And its 20K more. The only luxury here is for those who want to allow Toyota to take an extra $20,000 out of their pockets for what is overall a worse car. And that is the real truth.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:52:15 PM | | Votes: 7

In addition, theres nothing 600 about the LS. Its purely a sticker car with nothing to back it up. A pathetic attempt at trying to equal the image of the S600 V12 Sedan.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:56:44 PM | | Votes: 6

As usual, there are those who Only Read That Which They Choose...

"There IS a faction of the luxury car buying public that see LEXUS a the pinnacle of the genre, and are willing go pay whatever it takes to own the Best of the Breed (LS600h)."

The LEXUS Breed... NOT The Entire Luxury Sedan Landscape!

What is this almost Unnatural Fear that Many of You Seem To Have of Lexus and Its Products Anyway?
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:45:04 PM | | Votes: -2

Da Harder,
You are right; there are people that are willing to dish out the premium for this car. Those people are snobs that are buying a car for the prestige of it. Those people don't know cars. They are "phonies" that are buying a car so others can see them in that car. They probably have no clue whatsoever about what Miles per Gallon means.

— Lavic (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:45:10 PM | | Votes: 4

I'm going to break this to you as gently as humanly possible...

Almost All of These Ultra Premium Luxury Sedans are Bought For 'The PRESTIGE of It'.

Note: I sincerely hope that this doesn't throw off your Life's Dynamic Equilibrium.

But - It's True!
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 4:50:37 PM | | Votes: -4

DaHarder, you're trying too hard, and it's not working.

Your posts are very contrived... yes, there are people that want this car, but not for the right reasons. I stand by my statement that the LS600hL is an unjustifiable purchase. I want to like it, but I can't. It's just too poorly executed.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:04:43 PM | | Votes: 5

... Yet Again, Your Error is Actaully Believing that I Care About What You Think of My Opinions/Posts...

You're Just NOT That Important!

Some of you are so convinced that your assessment of this or that matters to above all others, and it simply doesn't.

If you don't agree with my posts... Don't Read Them.

Note: There's Beauty in Diverse Thinking.
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 7:16:22 PM | | Votes: -7

Someone take DaHarder off the crack pot he's smoking. What a loser. Does he have a life, job, or anything else more constructive to do with his time? I notice he always posts instantly and is all over the place.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 11:26:18 AM | | Votes: 0

yep fixed
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 12:57:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

From the manufacturer's websites:

LS600h: 438 hp, 20/22 mpg, 5.5 0-60, $104,000 base price

760iL: 438 hp, 14/22 mpg, 5.8 0-60, $123,000 base price

If you compare the LS hybrid to the BMW V12 (which was what the LS hybrid was designed to compete with) it doesn't seem to be a failure at all.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 12:57:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

The 760Li is a design from 2002. The LS hybrid is brand new. It's easy to one-up someone when you study what they do before you make your move. True innovation is more difficult.
Compare the LS to a more recently designed rival: The LS is supposed to compete with the MB S600 (as if) but in fact the LS600hL is no quicker and not much more fuel efficient than the base V8 powered Mercedes-Benz S550. To quote Motortrend magazine from a recent test:
'The LS600hL over-promises and under-delivers... It is not worthy of a 600 badge.'
This makes it a failure.
— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:28:18 PM | | Votes: -1

What if BMW comes out with a 7 Series Hybrid?

What if ToyLex fanboys?
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:50:55 PM | | Votes: -4

The 760Li is the worst twelve-cylinder sedan available, period.

The 750Li is just as fast. 0-60 in 5.8 (BMW website!), 17/25MPG. That's with the 2008 EPA rating.

And I think you know as well as I do, answer, that most have trouble achieving Lexus's quoted time for the LS600hL.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:07:25 PM | | Votes: 0

Excuse me, it's not the worst, but the slowest (760Li). Though I don't know of many twelve-cylinder sedans that are "worse" than the stellar 760. Because even being the worst in that pack is being one of the best in the world.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 9:13:44 PM | | Votes: 1

Lets stop the bullshit. The only reason for Lexus to badge their car a "600" is to hint at a Mercedes S600, the ruler of the segment. Sure the BMW 760Li isn't worth the premium over the 750Li nor is the A8L W12 worth it over the A8L or S8, but ahh....the S600 kills the segment and the performance over the S550 is ridiculous. The average S550 can do the 60 mph thing in anywhere from 5.4-5.6 secs, the S600 nails it in 4.2-4.5. a huge difference in the real world. Your pitiful LS600hL can't even outrun a S550 so let up quit kidding here, we all know Mercedes is Lexus' target in this segment, has been since 1990...and the LS"600" doesn't even come close to the true "600", the S600 from Mercedes-Benz!

— Mercedes (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 1:27:53 AM | | Votes: 1

"The 760Li is the worst twelve-cylinder sedan available, period."

Wowoww!! Are you ok?

It's not so much about the speed in a twelve-cylinder, it's about the magic and the smoothness... wait didn't I already explain all of this to you?

445 DIN hp is plenty. I don't need more. To sixty a 750i is slightly slower but on the autobahn they're in different leagues. A 760i can easily do 180 mph.
— SevorbeupstryIsBack (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 1:40:34 AM | | Votes: 0

Its pretty lame for Lexus to target the worst performer (760iL) and still be beat by a "lesser" trim level Audi V8 TDI. What kind of excuse is it to go out and search for the car that actually underperforms the LS600h and say that "the LS600h was built to compete with it". How old is the 760iL anyway? Is it even a fair comparison of new vs old models. Its sad to see the Lexus fans so desperate.
— MeanVulcan (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:46:17 AM | | Votes: 2

Sevor, notice how I amended my post.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 11:38:11 PM | | Votes: 1

in summation...

"In the final analysis, the only point of the LS600hL is to assuage the guilt of shallow, label-conscious snobs. That’s an expensive cure for a senseless affliction. In that sense, the ‘h’ in the model’s name might as well stand for hypocrite."

my advice: buy the LS460L and use the change to buy a prius for the daily commute.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 12:58:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Posting yet another thread about this vehicle really borders on irresponsible since we know all this is going to turn into is yet another Nippo/Euro Flame War.

Question: What Was the Point of Starting This Thread... The REAL POINT?
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:03:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I give Lexus the "Missing Link" award with the LS600.

It's gunna take a few more designs before Lexus can compete with the Germans.

Missing Link 2008 Lexus Automobiles
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:47:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Competition by definition would be sales. Choose your words carefully.
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:27:33 PM | | Votes: 5

The S600 doesnt try to be something its not.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 1:58:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Of course the S600 is faster than the S550. And why on earth would a person buy a V12 and expect more fuel efficiency than a V8? Lexus made the promise of V12 power with V8 economy, not Mercedes. The S600 is all about power.

how stupid are you?
— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:04:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

The S600 is one of the quickest sedans in the world, of course it's faster. It's TWO SECONDS quicker than the LS600hL which was designed to compete with it. So it's a wonder that it gets mileage that's even close, on the highway (17, according to Mercedes). Its 11MPG city rating is horrible, but I can't expect much out of a car with a twin-turbocharged V12 (510hp/612lb ft).
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:10:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Actually the S600 gets pretty "good mileage" considering its power output and weight. Besides, the S600 doesn't try to be green. The LS600h is all about hype.
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:51:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Instead of studying magazines, debating with internet posters, etc....you could always buy one if you like it. And if you don't like it? Well, just don't buy one.

Caution: this strategy only works if you can think for yourself and don't require the approval of others for every decision you make.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:26:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

The only hype its lived up to is the sales numbers.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:59:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

And, ironically, its sales numbers are a product of the hype that it doesn't live up to. People bought it before they knew anything about it.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:11:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Does anyone buy a RR supercharged for the extra horsepower? No. They buy it for the badge. Do they actually take it off road? Hell no. Why did they buy it? The badge. Why did Lexus make this car? For those who want the badge.
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:35:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

Yes, there are people out there that covet the Lexus badge, and want an exclusive Lexus to show off to their friends at their next wine and cheese party.
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:38:15 PM | | Votes: 6

And there's no more wrong with that than those who spend exorbitant amounts of money buying an other luxury item.

It's their money, to do with as they see fit, and all the Anti-Japanese Luxury Vehicle Manufacturer Rhetoric In The World Doesn't Matter One Iota...

Vivi la Difference!
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:54:36 PM | | Votes: -1

then they could do that with an LS460. Buying the LS600h for $25k extra when all you really get is performance that is equal or worse in every respect, a half size trunk, different lights, and AWD just makes you someone who likes to showoff how little your money means to you. There is not a single justifiable reason to get the LS600h over the LS460 unless you need AWD, which isn't worth $25k, and in that case get an S8 or S550 4MATIC and you have everything the LS600h does along with the full trunk and performance befitting the cost.
— JRobUSC (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 2:58:04 PM | | Votes: 0

^ WHO CARES?

If the LS600h is want the buyer wants, Then They'll Buy It...

Without Having To Answer To You or Anyone else!

Which Part Don't You Understand?
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:02:51 PM | | Votes: -1

But M35, the difference is the RR Supercharged CAN go off-road (in this analogy). The Lexus CANNOT achieve respectable mileage numbers.

Granted, the mileage would be much more impressive if the car was quicker. But it isn't--and it is because of the hybrid system! The batter adds so much unnecessary weight and dampens the performance as well as the fuel economy. The very reason people want the car in the first place (badge) is its downfall.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:13:39 PM | | Votes: 3

*Battery.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:14:17 PM | | Votes: 2

And their's thousands of people who over-pay for an electronic nightmare just because it has a chicken foot on the hood.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:00:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

their's??? Perhaps your mastery (or lack thereof) of the english language is what blinds you to the benefits of the three-pointed star.
— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:08:53 PM | | Votes: -1

"their's"

*** sigh ***
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:04:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

The Level of Narcissism and Arrogance In This Place is Seriously Laughable!

No Individual Need Run Their Automotive Purchase/Choice Through Any of Your 'Filters Of Approval'...

If you Don't Like The LS600h, Trust Me, The Dealer Will Sell It To Someone Who'll Absolutely Love It Both During The Ownership Period, and Also At Resale Time.

Note: Great Resale - Something Few (Euro or otherwise) Full-Sized Luxury Makers Can Claim.
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:12:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

But they would love the LS460L MORE. Because it does everything better! What about that do YOU not understand?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:15:21 PM | | Votes: 1

Well every auto has good/bad reviews. It is the only way to know how a car performs throug hthe eyes of experts. I do not believe any of us are in the auto Mag business. Of course there is the other side of the coin with personal preference.

There is also another side called hype. Toyota has been known to over hype the hybrids. Definitely a valiant effort but does nto deliver as promised. Just like the Prius, after the new EPA standards kicked in the Prius is rated at 46MPG from the marketed 60MPG. Still trying to figure out how they got away with that.

Anyways Toyota is putting great effort and perhaps the second generation will prove better results. Toyota/Lexus wins hands down in the marketing dept!
— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:13:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:20:50 AM | | Votes: 0

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:21:00 AM | | Votes: 0

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:21:05 AM | | Votes: 0

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:21:10 AM | | Votes: 0

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:21:17 AM | | Votes: 0

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:21:19 AM | | Votes: 0

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:21:23 AM | | Votes: 0

that 60 mpg was derived by running the car thru the EPA's OWN TEST cycle. that's how they got away with that.

so it was the EPA cycle that was overoptimistic. don't blame toyota for that.

and even 46 real mpg is far better than ANYONE ELSE can manage, other than the diesels.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:21:29 AM | | Votes: 0

sorry for the muiltiple posts. the server is as slow as molasses at minus 8 degrees tonite. which it is, outside.

hit the 'submit' button so often 'cuz i thot it was DEAD!
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 3:34:32 AM | | Votes: 0

It should be illegal to take advantage of senior citizens regardless of their financial status...
— AgentOrange (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:29:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

I would prefer de merc 500HP bi-turbo V12 in the LS instead of the hibrid technology.
— noname00 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:45:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Makes perfect sense to me ;)
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 4:25:29 PM | | Votes: 2

I would rather get the regular Lexus LS460L and save the $20k. The only thing that I really like about the Lexus LS600hl is the Xenon lights.

Buy the regular Lexus LS460L and still have $20k left to go on a vacation in Hawaii and get a good tan ;)
— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 3:58:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

I agree, Lexus. The LS460L is an excellent harmony of engineering and comfort. The LS600hL pushes it too far and ruins a great thing in the process.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:16:56 PM | | Votes: 1

But as far as look go, Lexus LS600hl rank #1 in this class for sure.

Lexus
— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 4:03:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Why?

:(
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 4:24:27 PM | | Votes: -2

Because...

As foreign as this concept seems to be in this forum -

It's His Opinion, and He Need Not Explain It To To You or Anyone Else.

Note: Good For Him!
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 4:37:58 PM | | Votes: -2

Well, DaHarder, I'm sick of your defending other people's OPINIONS. He stated this as a FACT.

The LS600hL looks good... but MY OPINION is that the S600 and A8L W12 look better. EL34 SHARES that OPINION.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:17:52 PM | | Votes: 3

What class?

The LS600h is in a league of its own with no real competition. Oh yeah, now I get it! No competition = 1st place!
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:57:11 PM | | Votes: 0

"There IS a faction of the luxury car buying public that see LEXUS a the pinnacle of the genre, and are willing go pay whatever it takes to own the Best of the Breed (LS600h)."

People, somewhere in this world actually consider Lexus a luxury brand? Geeze...
— Czelinski (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 5:19:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

it's mostly women.
— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:07:09 PM | | Votes: 1

"But as far as look go, Lexus LS600hl rank #1 in this class for sure."

And no, it doesn't.
— Czelinski (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 5:20:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

^ Question: Will You Be Searching Through All Previous Posts So As To Offer Your Disapproval For Anything With Which You Don't Agree?

Just Curious...
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 5:33:36 PM | | Votes: -4

I know several people who shopped the LS600hL and stopped when they looked at the trunk. The LS600hL is barely faster than the S550 and the LS600hL shares that now generic Lexus look with the ES, IS, and GS. What looked fresh with the introduction of the GS now is ho-hum now that every other Lexus sedan shares the same look. Lexus builds great boring, fast cars.
— lyonboy (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 5:41:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

So a family resemblance for (i.e. common visual connection) AUDI/Mercedes/BMW vehicles is Fine, Yet a Cohesive Design Language for LEXUS is Wrong?

Just Curious...
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 5:46:30 PM | | Votes: -2

"I know several people who shopped the LS600hL and stopped when they looked at the trunk" Ya, sure.
— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:48:27 PM | | Votes: -3

it's no worse, and FAR BETTER, than when if you wanted a bmw, whether you paid $28k or $98k you just got the SAME SAUSAGE, in different LENGTHS! lol!

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:04:06 AM | | Votes: -1

Lexus promised that LS600hL will give the power/Luxury/and other things that come with these Top End sedans like Prestige and Image, but with the Economy and Emissions of V8.

Now Morons tell me what's wrong in that? why u think it doesn't make sense?

In a recent thread about LS600hL VS A8 Diesel many morons said that Lexus promised Emissions of V6 therefore Lexus over-promised but under-delivered.

Idiots don't forget it already has a V8(Which is even bigger than that of LS460's)
so how on earth can it deliever the mileage of a V6.
(maybe u guys are confusing it with GS450h)

anyway i won't waste my time convincing u ignorants any more.

Believe what u believe.

but to me LS600hL is like no other.It's one of the best.and Lexus will sell every they make.

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 5:48:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

"Lexus promised that LS600hL will give the power/Luxury/and other things that come with these Top End sedans like Prestige and Image, but with the Economy and Emissions of V8.

Now Morons tell me what's wrong in that? why u think it doesn't make sense?"

Because it's NOT TRUE. They didn't DELIVER on those promises!

"In a recent thread about LS600hL VS A8 Diesel many morons said that Lexus promised Emissions of V6 therefore Lexus over-promised but under-delivered."

No... we said they promised the power of a V12 with the economy of a V8, which they did. But while it has the power of a V12, for sure, don't be deceived. It's NOT as fast as any twelve-cylinder sedan and can barely keeping up with eight-cylinder models. Its fuel economy is only average as an eight-cylinder car, also, which is strange seeing as it's a V8 HYBRID.

JUGNU, I can't comprehend this car. It's so easy to pick on, and you still defend it. It looks good, but is that all you want?

Its performance is subpar. Its mileage is subpar. Every luxury feature on this car is available on the LS460L. What does it have left? A badge?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:21:33 PM | | Votes: 5

The 600h is actally a much better deal than all the other V12's, and faster than the non turbo V12's. Most get 5.5 sec 0-60 time. Given the amount of luxury equipment and the aftermarket subwoofer like bass from the Mark Levinson, it's a better deal. Plus under normal driving in a crowded city on a day-to-day basis, the gas mileage is much better than the other V12s for such a fast car.
— StickShiftCamry (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 5:55:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

The A8L achieves a 5.0 sec 0-60 times in most tests; its fastest time is 4.8.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:22:08 PM | | Votes: 3

this is the point most totally MISS.

in city driving, where v12 limos see MOST duty, this car gives some 50% BETTER MILEAGE. much of it ghosting along in TOTAL SILENCE, with electric drive.

this alone sets it apart from and ABOVE ALL competitors.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:12:25 AM | | Votes: 0

I wouldn't want "total silence" or "ghosting." I'm being perfectly honest here. Even in my ultra-lux sedan I should hear its marvelous engine working. Not loud, but audible.

The LS600hL misses the mark. Why is it so hard for you to admit that?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 11:42:32 PM | | Votes: 2

And, BTW, the Jaguar Super V8 is quieter than the LS600hL if that's REALLY what you want. This is from Motor Trend's COMPARISON, in which they had real test results.

Audi also says the A8 has the lowest wind/tire noise in its class for 2008. Although it would take nothing less than a doctor with a stethoscope to detect any sound difference between the cars in this class, I'm glad you can still hear the engines... in MOST of them.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 11:45:05 PM | | Votes: 2

I just want to over-pay for a car with a chicken foot on the hood. At least when I'm broken down on the side of the road people will know I'm rich.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:07:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

What sense does S8 and A8 W12 make then? Both makes 450BHP.

and what sense does a S600 and S63 AMG make? Both makes 510BHP.

just to name a few.

Here the subjective things make the difference.What the buyer is more towards.

and don't tell me that the S63AMG and S8 are 911s compar to their Luxury-oriented Variants.

Same way if u want all the things of V12,but want it to be relatively (compare to rivals) good to the envionment.Then the LS600h is your car.

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:09:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

What are you talking about? The A8L W12/S8 and S600/S63 AMG are all SIGNIFICANTLY quicker and faster than their A8 4.2/S550 counterparts. What's your point? Is it because Audi and Mercedes both offer an ultra-luxury and a performance version of their sedans? What does that have to do with the LS600hL? One is available as simply a go-fast cruiser with every feature imaginable (W12 & S600), and the other is for performance enthusiasts who need space and class (S8 & S63).
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:24:18 PM | | Votes: 3

How this car even sells is beyond my understanding, it really is an overpriced toyota with leather. They should have lowered the price by 20K.
— xj13 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:23:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

LS600h loses once again. This time to 3 V8s.

Motor Trend sums it up

"4th place: Lexus LS 600hL
Overpromises and underdelivers on performance, fuel economy, and even luxury."

The LS600 had no performance advantage versus the gasoline V8s from the competition, and only managed 15% better fuel economy, a gas guzzling 14.9 in the end.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0712_high_end_luxury_sedan_comparison/index.html

the LS600h also overheated driving up some hills, and it had the worst handling
— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 6:37:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

I have stayed away from this "War of Opinions" for as long as i care to.

Let me see if i can clear this up for people like Da Harder and JUNGU

With the Exception of the 760li ALL the other German Manufacturers offer V12 powered alternatives for their Super Saloons

{You have to forgive the 760il as it made sense when it was first introduced in 2001/2, it was placed above the 745i which had less power and performance but the 750i replacement has narrowed the HP and performance gap with the 760i}

Now with MB and AUDI the V12 poweplants provide a considerable jump in HP and Performance as well as the Bragging rights that come with having that HP & Performance Superiority over others that have V8/V6 or Diesel powered variants of the same Luxury Vehicle {Remember you can order every concievable Option on the smaller Engined Vehicles that you get on the V12 as Standard}

SO THIS IS MOSTLY ABOUT BRAGGING RIGHTS OVER SUPERIOR HP AND PERFORMANCE

The problem most of us have with the LS600h/hl is that:
(1) While it may claim 483hp (More than A8 & 760i V12 hp figures) the vehicle's performance is about on par with the V8 model offering from the Germans, SO NO BRAGGING RIGHTS THERE

(2) The whole Emissions Advantage thing is very dependent on CITY DRIVING ONLY and as soon as you include Highways and Surburban roads the Advantage over other petrol V8s including the LS460 Dissapears and when you introduce the German V8 diesels with Equal Performance & Luxury the LS600h is totally trounced

I was one of those defending the LS460 as a very good Vehicle from Lexus which will have the German Engineers scratching their heads for a while.

But as a Sensible Adult I would feel INSULTED if i was fed constant promises of V12 Performance & V8 Economy and i ordered one and then when the Vehicle arrived it performed as woefully as the LS600h does.

Heavier Vehicle with Less Trunk Space and Similar Performance Does Not a Better Car Make
The LS600h is an example in Marketing Brilliance, but i am afraid thats where the credit ends.
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 7:22:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

Correction:
LS600h: 438bhp
760i : 444bhp
A8W12: 446bhp

So its Much Heavier than its V12 Rivals with Less Power, Slower Performance and Less Trunk Space.
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 7:33:29 PM | | Votes: 7

That's interesting. In the US, the 760Li has an identical rating to the LS600hL--438hp. Which is no coincidence, IMO. Also the A8L W12 has 450hp here. Not massive differences.

Otherwise I completely agree. Great post. Very persuasive.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 9:19:00 PM | | Votes: 3

It is very obvious that some bunch are having a go at the Lexus, which is ok, because you are entitled to your views. Well, and my view is that articles like this are not going to detract me from the magnificence of the Lexus LS, this car is a technology showcase, it has got every gadget that is available to luxury car manufacturers today, and the car is one of the most sophisticated piece of machine in world of automobiles. I also like the design, very clear cut and ultra modern with fantastic use of state of the art materials.

Well how can i prove all that i have said above about the car, well all that you have to do is check out lexus.com and you'll see how my claims are validated.

I can get some stick for supporting Lexus, but i think this car is created from too great an effort to be ignored with ignominy.
— farabira1 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 7:52:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

The argument is not about Lexus as a company or even The LS Model

The argument is about the LS600h and its Flaws or Lack Of advantage over the LS460

Our point is that the LS600h is bested by its own little Brother the LS460 not to mention the German offerings.
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 8:27:51 PM | | Votes: 4

I95 beat me to it. The LS in itself is a marvelous technological masterpiece, yes. But that's where the greatness ends for the LS600hL. In everything but the tech count, the hybrid is handily beaten by its $30K-less LS460 sibling. THAT is why this car doesn't make sense. If it was better, the hybrid would be a great new way to generate power and efficiency in luxury cars. But it isn't. And thus ends Lexus's experimentation with this powertrain in the LS.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 9:21:49 PM | | Votes: 2

The GS450h has been a sales flop, time will tell on the LS600hL. The LS460/L are undeniable values, the LS600hL to me is much less so. Anyone who does not think the trunk on the LS600hL is a problem needs glasses. The trunk is too small for a full-size luxury car.
— lyonboy (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 8:25:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

The trunk is also too small for a mid-sized sedan and would only cut it in the IS class.

And IMO the GS450h is justifiable over its siblings because it offers a real performance advantage at no real fuel economy expense (it actually does get better mileage than the GS350 in most conditions). It also doesn't cost a staggering $35K more than its siblings, like this vehicle.

But the LS600hL just isn't. I can't stress that enough. I'm sure Lexus will improve it for the next model... if there IS a next model.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 9:24:06 PM | | Votes: 2

I don't think Lexus has missed the mark with the LShL. It is a hybrid. Hybrids aren't only about getting less gas mileage, but also polluting less. The LS does everything a hybrid should, even if the numbers aren't comparable to a Prius.
— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 9:49:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

This car is Lexus’ attempt at pushing the “green factor” too far, IMO. The LS600hL’s environmental impact is TRIVIAL due to the small number of cars it will sell. This “green factor” argument works FOR the Prius, since it has mass market appeal (and sold in such numbers), and has a much larger (if still small) positive environmental impact vs. the LS600hL. Lexus is a luxury make, and the LS is the pinnacle, so far fewer LS’ are sold than ES/GS/RX. If Lexus were really trying to help the environment, it would apply their hybrid technology to the volume leaders first. Lexus (with Toyota) has the enviable position to set the precedent by example (by being the worldwide volume leader). Toyota is doing its part, but Lexus is not. Thus, the LS600hL is just a marketing stunt (and an expensive one at that). Don’t drink the LS600hL Koolaid!
— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 11:13:20 PM | | Votes: 1

I'm sure Lexus realizes this. They probably don't mass-produce the LSh in large amounts. The LSh is for those rich people who want to be environmentally friendly without having to give up a lot. They still get an ultra luxury vehicle and a powerful engine but are still being conscientious to the environment by not driving the LS. Plus, the LSh is a technological revolution in the auto market. I would buy an LSh over an LS just because it's faster and has more features on it. Just because it's a hybrid doesn't mean it's for tree huggers only.
— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/12/2007 11:59:39 PM | | Votes: -2

"The LSh is for those rich people who want to be environmentally friendly without having to give up a lot."

But it DOESN'T DO THAT. It's simply a FACADE. You CANNOT have your cake and eat it, too! At least not in this car!

But IMO, with the German diesels, you can... S420 CDI, A8L 4.2TDI have impressive performance, even better fuel economy, all the style you would expect and all the luxury that comes with their badges. For much less money than the LS600hL. It's a win-win type of purchase and I'm waiting for them to become available in the States.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 8:17:25 PM | | Votes: 3

If he was an actual/professional journalist, I'd accuse him of journalistic irresponsibility...

But He's Not.
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 1:51:02 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

To answer the question posed, YES they have. The 600 clearly isn't worth the premium over the 460 nor does it even begin to compare to the V12 rivals it was supposed humiliate. What a farce.

— Mercedes (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 1:22:12 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

What do you open minded "enthusiasts" prefer?

A 5 litre V8 with an electric motor
or
A 5.5 litre V12 bi-turbo

— SevorbeupstryIsBack (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 1:43:48 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

V12 Bi-Turbo Please : )
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 3:39:25 PM | | Votes: 1

OF COURSE, the 5.5 bi-TURBO if you want to help the BigOilys make even MORE big profits!
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:27:31 AM | | Votes: 1

apex:

and the LS600 is putting the oil companies out of business with it's 14.9MPG right? lol
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 12:01:02 PM | | Votes: 1

Sevor

5 litre V8 with an electric motor because compare to it's rivals(S600,760i,A8 W12), LS600hL is more cleaner, more economical and cheaper(maybe not that fast).

5.5 litre V12 bi-turbo is just cruel.

and if fast is your thing then better get the 6.3 V8 and not the 5.5 litre V12 bi-turbo.

S4

"One is available as simply a go-fast cruiser with every feature imaginable (W12 & S600), and the other is for performance enthusiasts who need space and class (S8 & S63)."

that's very funny.U mean S600 and A8 W12 doesn't offer/have space and class. or S63 and S8 doesn't have every feature imaginable and they r not go-fast cruisers.

first go and learn what these cars are for.

These V12 are made for badge more than anything else.That 600 badge carry a lot of prestige.
They are very KINGishhhh.

any sensible person will not go for them(sales are the proof).

So don't find much sense in LS600hL too. It’s targeted towards a very tiny group of people.(Well some would buy it for looks alone)

and Lexus have injected as much sense as possible from their side.
Made it more clean and fuel efficient.

U need to give Lexus credit for that.

195Speeding

"You have to forgive the 760il....."

Why u guys are feeling so sorry/protective/defensive about the 760i.

Yes because it's a German.

Same way we can talk about the all new Porsche Cayenne Turbo with 500BHP which defeated the 2 year old(but still 2 more to go before a change) Porsche cayenne Turbo S with 520BHP in a recent comparison done by a Local magazine here in Dubai.

Turbo S was in every category (Enginnering looks and price) defeated by the new 500BHP Cayenne Turbo.

But nobody will say anything about that.

Even though Cayenne Turbo S is 20K expensive than the Turbo.

Why yes because it's German.

Now please stop this hating of Lexus. Be sensible and grow up babies.

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 5:43:12 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Buying the LS600hL based on its advanced technology is a sane decision, as it does showcase the best of parallel hybrid technology with luxury features.

Buying it for reducing its environmental impact is an insane decision! (Tree-hugging luxury car buyer = oxymoron)

The only scenario I can think of that this car will help the environment is if everyone on the planet drove V12’s and decided to switch to this car.
— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 7:56:56 AM | | Votes: 2

Jugnu, you need to grow up.

The environmental impact from cars like the S600, A8 W12 etc. is minimal because these cars are actually LOW VOLUME models. For every 50 S320 CDI's that Mercedes' sells in Europe they sell possibly 10 S550's and 1 S600, again in Europe. These aren't the exact numbers but the bottom line is that these are low volume models.

Clean? An S600 is clean. An A8 W12 is clean. Sure, they consume a lot of fuel, especially if driven hard and within the city but that's the price you pay for so much power in a heavy car loaded with luxury features.

Must I remind you that the LS600h become a gas-guzzler the moment you leave the urban environment? Let's see, you have an "inefficient" CVT transmission in an overweight car loaded with an electric engine and heavy batteries now being powered by a powerful V8. Doesn't sound like a fuel efficient car to me. So cut the bullshit and face the fact that the LS600h is simply marketing hype. In fact I despise the way hybrids are marketed in the US. It's a light fraud.
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 8:24:23 AM | | Votes: 7

"These V12 are made for badge more than anything else.That 600 badge carry a lot of prestige.
They are very KINGishhhh.

any sensible person will not go for them(sales are the proof)."

Oh, right, and it has nothing to do with how about 2% of the world population can afford them. LOL!

Your Cayenne Turbo vs. Cayenne Turbo S comparison makes absolutely no sense. You say we "forgive" the Turbo S because it's German? What, is the new one not German or something? Because it just appears to me that they improved in engine technology over the old model. What does that have to do with anything? Why would anybody COMPLAIN that the updated Cayenne is better than the old one?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 8:14:47 PM | | Votes: 1

I found this on a German website. Hybrids ain't doing too good in Germany because they're too expensive and the fuel savings you obtain, if at all, don't warrant their expensive purchasing price.

Hybrid-Pkw sind deutschen Autofahrern zu teuer

Nur jeder Fünfte akzeptiert Aufpreis für Hybrid-Pkw, Verbrennungsmotor bleibt dominierend
Ohne überzeugendes Marketing und eine konstruktive Unterstützung durch die Politik bleibt die Automobilindustrie auf den Kosten für den Klimaschutz sitzen. Denn die große Mehrheit der deutschen Autofahrer ist zwar über den Zusammenhang von CO2-Emissionen und Treibhauseffekt informiert, aber nur die wenigsten ziehen aus dieser Einsicht Konsequenzen für das eigene Fahr- und Kaufverhalten, wie aus einer Umfrage für die Studie "The Automotive Industry and Climate Change" der Wirtschaftsprüfungs- und Beratungsgesellschaft PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) hervor geht.

So stoßen Pkw mit einem Hybrid-Antrieb bei knapp jedem dritten Autofahrer auf Interesse, aber nur jeder fünfte ist dazu bereit, für die teure Technologie einen höheren Kaufpreis zu zahlen. "Auch die Vergangenheit zeigt, dass Erfolge der Automobilhersteller bei der Verbrauchsreduzierung der Motoren durch die Präferenz der Kunden nach mehr Leistung, Komfort und Sicherheit förmlich aufgefressen wurden. Hier müssen die Hersteller ansetzen," sagt Felix Kuhnert, Leiter der Automobilberatung bei PwC. (dpa)
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 8:17:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Yeah i guess, i have to agree with S4carbio and 195speeding ticket. Very rightly said. LS460 is probably better than LS600HL.
— farabira1 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 8:57:56 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

Broke ass hybrid Maybach... WITH ONLY 1 RECLINER!
— CLK63BlackSeries (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 9:37:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

Do you Agents have a Lexus sales breakdown for 2007 YTD ? I would be really curious if they can sell more than 5 600hLs in a month.
— JWalkerLegrande (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 11:52:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

oh they're selling....for now.

apparently 175 LS600/month for the first month or two.

confirmation that intelligence has little correlation with wealth.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 12:18:01 PM | | Votes: 2

Just becasue they have money doesnt mean they throw it away.

Where have you been 06GS? We missed you :)
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 3:48:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Major props to Lexus for making this car. And I agree that there is a major faction of the Luxury car buyers who sees Lexus as the pinnacle of this sort of technology, because it is.

Look how everyone is suddently copying the hybrid technology. That alone should tell you something.
— bleek516 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 6:42:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Nobody is copying. They're RESPONDING so they can offer a competitive model against the Lexus hybrids. Just the way that Lexus "copied" the Germans in Europe and added a diesel IS (they responded, not copied).
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 11/13/2007 7:58:46 PM | | Votes: 1

Actually OEMs are coming out with better hybrid systems, admittedly after Lexus, but improved systems nonetheless. The Porsche hybrid system which will be used by Audi is one clear example. I really wish though they respond with diesels rather than overhyped, overweight and overpriced hybrids.
— MeanVulcan (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2007 11:04:28 AM | | Votes: 2

Well, MeanVulcan, they will have both excellent diesels and overhyped hybrids. So it's a win-win situation.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2007 12:11:42 AM | | Votes: 1

It amazes me how many people are so envious of Lexus' ability to make a car that pollutes less than their competition while outperforming them.

The guy can mock Japanese culture all he wants, doesn't change the fact that Lexus has it and the German's don't.

Hahah, the guy even tries to use the hybrid premium to knock hybrid systems. It may take 57 years to pay off the premium, but it's still cleaner than a V12.

Weren't peopel just recently complaining that the LSh was lower priced than its German competition? These critics can never decide which argument to use, which is understandable since hybrids have all the bases covered (unless you need to tow a 747 around).
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 1:00:45 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

honestly, you're a complete idiot who is incapable of substantive discussion.

just go away.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 12:14:55 PM | | Votes: 3

midengine,
Sorry to rain on your German parade, but the LS600hL holds its own even when you try to knock it down with V8s, and it still outdoes the German V12s.
So which argument will we choose today? The German V8's can out-miser a hybrid V8/V12, or the German V12s can't keep up with a Japanese V8?
Take your time.

Here's a cut and paste of my post from the other forum showing how silly all the jealous "driving enthusiasts" are.

"I knew it, Motortrend purposely set out to make the LS600hL look bad. Comparing a V12 to V8s and then complaing about price.

"who cares about gas mileage in this realm?" I have a better question, why do the Germans put diesels in their flagship sedans if no one cares about mileage in this price range? I guess the category only matters when the Japanese don't win it.

"Our quest started off in southern Orange County with a long freeway slog"
Perfect for showing everyone that V8s all get roughly the same mileage on the highway. It's too bad Motortrend didn't feel it necessary to do any city driving where they would've found out the LS' V8 shuts off.

Of course, they had to mention the small trunk. I wonder how 5 adults in an A4 manage?

2nd best in braking, only a .2 sec spread in 0-60 eventhough the LS600 is carrying up to 1000lbs more chub. Lateral grip equal to the rest. Best mileage and emissions (by 20%). AWD probably was considered a negative in this comparison (a detriment to handling or something).

The Maserati definitely deserves the win, it takes almost every category.

If the LS600hL is so bad compared to V8's, what would you call the German V12s then if the LS600hL can beat them all (except the S600 in 0-60)?

BMW760Li "We've timed a 760Li at just over 6 seconds for the 0-60-mph run"
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/7series/2007/review.html

Audi A8 W12 0-60 5.8sec
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=106174/pageId=64463

I ask again, where was the LS460 if Motortrend really wanted a non-bias comparison? Judging from the one sided negative comments about everything, the LS is getting the IS-F treatment.

Just so the buttheads can't say I didn't include it.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=120486/pageNumber=1?synpartner=edmunds&pageurl=www.edmunds.com/new/2008/lexus/ls600hl/100874931/roadtestarticle.html&articleId=120486

Edmund's brings up points that I mentioned. They also question if it's justifiable compared to the LS460 V8. Perhaps, but compared to the German V12s, it's obvious the LS600hL beats them hands down in performance, mileage (20mpg city vs the S600's thrifty 12mpg city) and luxury (unless luxury means simply a little badge on your hood).

Love how they complain that the battery drains faster when you floor it in an LSh. I wonder if Motortrend knows that the gas gauge drops faster when you floor an ICE? As I said, looking for any little detail to try and bring the LSh down. Grasping at straws."
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 1:09:28 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

huu:

"Sorry to rain on your German parade, but the LS600hL holds its own even when you try to knock it down with V8s, and it still outdoes the German V12s."

it's like you've joined a cult and been completely brainwashed.

exactly how does the LS600 outdo the german V12s?

(i can hardly believe i have to ask this question)
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 12:05:26 PM | | Votes: 3

huu, I absolutely love how you can find exactly the worst acceleration times for the German sedans.

Would you like me to dig up all of the tests where the W12 got a 5.0 sec run and the 760Li got a 5.3 sec time? I also LOVE how you compare these WORST times to Lexus's fastest time, which has been proven to be UNATTAINABLE by publications who formally tested it.

""who cares about gas mileage in this realm?" I have a better question, why do the Germans put diesels in their flagship sedans if no one cares about mileage in this price range? I guess the category only matters when the Japanese don't win it."

You are WRONG. By "realm," it is pretty damn obvious that he meant TWELVE-CYLINDER $100K+ sedans! And it's also pretty obvious that they DON'T care about fuel efficiency, not in the least! No, not for the LS600hL, either, because if they cared even the slightest bit they wouldn't be getting a car that gets 16MPG in the city. That's what my car gets. Do I CARE? No!

The thing about the German diesels is... THEY'RE FASTER AND MORE FUEL-EFFICIENT AND LESS EXPENSIVE THAN THE LS600HL. It's hard to argue with that... because you can't. You are so stubborn and so wrong, it's driving me insane.

"Perfect for showing everyone that V8s all get roughly the same mileage on the highway. It's too bad Motortrend didn't feel it necessary to do any city driving where they would've found out the LS' V8 shuts off."

No... the LS hybrid's V8 gets WORSE mileage on the highway than the non-hybrid version. This doesn't make any sense at all.

The LS's V8 does NOT shut off in the city. You can only coast for thirty seconds and there's a certain speed limit for the electric engine (I forgot, something like 20MPH). I drive faster than 20 in the city, thanks.

"Of course, they had to mention the small trunk. I wonder how 5 adults in an A4 manage?"

What are you talking about?

"If the LS600hL is so bad compared to V8's, what would you call the German V12s then if the LS600hL can beat them all (except the S600 in 0-60)?"

It CAN'T. The only one it can even run with is the 760Li. Obviously, that will be "fixed" with the next 760 and it will leave the LS600hL in the dust with the others.

"I ask again, where was the LS460 if Motortrend really wanted a non-bias comparison? Judging from the one sided negative comments about everything, the LS is getting the IS-F treatment."

Ahh, yes. The old "BIASED!" rant. So cliché. And so pathetic! I feel sorry for you, because you have to go so low to defend your favorite brand.

But what you don't understand is you don't HAVE to defend Lexus in this case. This car is NOT what it should be. No matter how you spin it, it is an underperforming excuse for a 440hp "hybrid--" lacking in fuel economy as well as performance. Yes, it may get better mileage than the rest but why does it matter if it's not as fast?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 11:57:26 PM | | Votes: 4

Just spotted this thread and though late I just have to comment. I am the owner of a new 2008 S600 and I have also driven and spent time with the LS600h... So I am one of those who really puts down $145K for a car... not for the badge and prestige as some (idiotically) state... but because I want the best of the best, for which as in all things there is a price attached, and I analyzed the merits of the competition minutely before parting with that amount of hard-earned cash...

Judging by many misinformed comments I am pretty sure that most here have not sat in or driven a 2008 S600... Or an LS600h for that matter..

First do not use the S550 as a basis of comparison... The interior of the S600 is in a completely different league to either that model or the LS600... Every front and back surface is the highest quality premium leather and wood... the Alcantara headliner is so plush it is like pushing your finger into a cushion... There is virtually no plastic visible except some minor areas such as the air-vent and seat control surrounds... Every feature and option is standard also... And as for the V12... In launching, acceleration, mid-range over-taking... there is nothing, repeat nothing, like 612 ft/lb of torque and 510hp.. 0-60 in 4.5 seconds is definitely conservative... Tie that in with ABC suspension.. well the contrast with an average luxury sedan is astonishing... The S600 is perfectly balanced in design and performance - as it should be given Mercedes experience in this segment!

And that is what is wrong with the LS600... besides its environmental hypocrisy it is a totally unbalanced design... it is a standard LS460 into which Lexus has shoehorned a hybrid powertrain, lengthened the wheelbase to accomodate, and is marketing as green and "responsible"... while at the same time promoting it as a viable S600 alternative... They can't have it both ways...

Interior-wise the LS600 superficially looks like a viable competitor... on closer inspection there are are some cheap materials such as plastic looking metal trim around the navigation screen and plastic door panel segments.. the controls/buttons are all over the place... ergonomically the LS has none of the design elegance of the S-Class... Even in the areas of interior and comfort it fails to match the S600... (Except it has a rear entertainment system as standard which the S600 does not)

In my test drives I was hoping the electric motor would provide some noticeable torque... but I could hardly detect it... another big surprise... interior noise was higher over a rough stretch of freeway than the S600 and it dissapointed on the luxury ride side of things... (Perhaps because of the sheer weight/suspension dynamics) Also the small size of the LS600 trunk is quite a shock...

I don't like the LS600 because I am a Lexus basher... I currently own one.. (and have owned several) Lexus makes fine cars when they stay true to their core character and identity... If they had put a
— cjf_moraga (View Profile)

Posted on 11/24/2007 8:49:48 PM | | Votes: 1

S4

"Your Cayenne Turbo vs. Cayenne Turbo S comparison makes absolutely no sense"

"Why would anybody COMPLAIN that the updated Cayenne is better than the old one?"

because both are available as 2008 models.Cayenne Turbo S still got two more years to go (before a change like Cayenne Turbo) and it's 20K more expensive then the facelifetd Cayenne Turbo.

So who r u calling 'old one'?

so sir, now can we say that Porsche is ripping people by selling a car (2008 Turbo S) which is 20K expensive then it's lower sibling (2008 Turbo) but offeres exaclty nothing over it?

Same example as BMW 7 Series, (2006 745i got a power lift to 750i,but 760 didnot.Thus now they both are exactly same in everything.Performance and luxury) but 760i is 20K more expensive then 750i.

but nobody especially the Agent009, said anything to these two German examples,but are all over Lexus for doing nearly the same.

DOUBLE STANDARDS.

and bill what u got from a German website was very informative.What a good read.I understood each word.LOL

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 5:25:13 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

jugnu:

do you see BMW promoting this 760Li at all? no. because they know that since the 750i came out, there's not enough difference to advertise it and so they just shut up about the 760. BMW isn't making any outrageous claims about the 760.

lexus on the other hand, is making all kinds of claims about the LS600 that it can't live up to and they're promoting it LIKE CRAZY. better than a V12! FALSE. amazing mileage! FALSE. etc. etc. and, sadly, it can't even do anything better than the LS460.

this car is for poseurs who want a hybrid badge next to their lexus badge so they can say they're saving the world. hypocrisy at its height.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 12:12:07 PM | | Votes: 2

They actually canned the Turbo S model. The new Turbo model replaces the old Turbo and Turbo S models.
— uscgame (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 11:28:57 PM | | Votes: 2

The Cayenne Turbo S has been discontinued. DO YOUR RESEARCH before posting.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 11:47:26 PM | | Votes: 3

huu: "Edmund's brings up points that I mentioned. They also question if it's justifiable compared to the LS460 V8. Perhaps, but compared to the German V12s, it's obvious the LS600hL beats them hands down in performance, mileage (20mpg city vs the S600's thrifty 12mpg city."

the critics love to diss the MEAGER mpg difference on the hwy, but this is a whopping 67% difference!

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:40:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

And the S600 is also 2 sec faster to 60! Your point?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/14/2007 11:58:11 PM | | Votes: 2

how OFTEN do owners of these class of cars take them to the dragstrip???

against that, how often can you AVOID being in urban traffic on your daily commutes to the office?

so what is YOUR point?
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2007 6:43:07 AM | | Votes: -1

apex:

where are you getting this 67% better mileage idea from?

in the motor trend test, the LS600 averaged 14.9 and the S550 averaged 12.9. saving the world one car at a time! wooohoo!
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2007 12:16:22 PM | | Votes: 1

"how OFTEN do owners of these class of cars take them to the dragstrip???"

Is it that hard for you to comprehend the fact that a car that is TWO SECONDS quicker will make a REAL difference in everyday driving? I mean, honestly, do you not notice the difference in speed between a Audi S8 and a Toyota Camry V6? Because that's a two-second gap. You don't HAVE to take the S600 to the drag strip to feel a difference. And I would buy it because of its amazing power alone.

I just don't think you can sit there and honestly tell me you'd rather have an LS600hL than an S600.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2007 12:14:29 AM | | Votes: 1

i WOULD.

because i rarely take my own engine beyond 2500 - 3000 rpm, and its redline is 6000 rpm. yet, i get from ANY given pt a to pt b quicker than 99% of ALL other vehicles on the road with me.

acceleration IS NOT the be all and end all measure of cars, EXCEPT in the minds of juveniles. higher maintained cruising speed, accounting for traffic and signals, is THE determining factor in urban commutes.

how much diff does TWO SECONDS make in a 20 MINUTE trip? and i more than wipe out that advantage when muscleheads are still SITTING at a red, when i, having timed the synchro'd signals, zap past them at 20 - 30 mph!

again, the buyers of this class of car tend NOT to be juveniles obsessed with 0 - 60 times. the cars, DESPITE what's under the hoods, tend to be driven SENSIBLY, with DIGNITY, and yet (with SKILLED chaffeurs) NOT NECESSARILY in a pokey manner either!

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2007 4:22:47 AM | | Votes: 1

the 600hL has the FURTHER ADVANTAGE of silent operation before the gas engine kicks in.

it's dependent on state of battery charge and power demand of course, but the only thing that would give me MORE pleasure than zapping past "faster" vehicles at all of 25 mph, is DOING IT IN TOTAL SILENCE!

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2007 4:36:39 AM | | Votes: 1

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Has Lexus Really Missed The Mark This Badly With The LS600hL?

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