If The Mercedes C63 And BMW M3 Sedan's Are SO Good, WHY Did the Lexus IS-F Outsell Them Last Month?

The "one thing that REALLY matters" is which car the buyer likes the best. They are all great autos.

— Dr550 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 3:40:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 16   

Because it's a new model.

— henbmw (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 5:31:46 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -13   

"So the Spies want to know, if the Mercedes C63 and BMW M3 sedan's are SO good, WHY did they lose the sales crown last month?"

because IS-F is also equally good. All 3 competing cars have their positives and negatives. Overall there are almost equal.

JUGNU

— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 5:51:07 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 9   

once again, toyota and lexus prove that whenever they SET THEIR MINDS TO IT, they are capable of matching or beating the germans at building and selling QUALITY cars. which they have done ever since the creation of the lexus brand.

they are just showing that now, their PERFORMANCE creds are as good as the quality creds.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 5:57:59 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Even though the IS-F lost almost all comparisons to the two, it doesn't make it a bad car. It's a great car competing in one of the most agressive segments.

— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 6:24:39 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 11   

Because the Lexus IS-F offer customers what they want. Period.

— silver1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 7:13:18 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I assume that the Lexus is less expensive than its German counterparts and though it comes in third in almost every comparison, it's still a good car. In this recession/depression, price may be as important in this segment as in all the others.

— pcar4evr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 7:15:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

the C63 is faster than those cars you listed, including the M3. No one lusts after a G37, especially since it costs the same as an ES350.

Honestly, enough with the Infiniti/Nissan cheerleading, some of your comparisons have been laughable at best.

— StarSearch (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 8:37:05 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 11   

ChuckG37

Actually, I doubt a C63 will lose out to a G37 on a track. The C63 is barely slower than an M3 around the track, because of the 6.2l engine.

— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 12:32:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

No one cross-shops a G37 with those cars. It doesn't compare in either performance or price. Stop with the G37 comparisons, it just can't compete with them.

— AudiNewEngland (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 3:34:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

Man that car is fugly! BMW 3 series is a better driving car and far better looking. The lexus figures are higher because its a new car. In the longterm the majority of buyers and critics will put the M3 ahead of it...

— comprachio (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 7:52:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -6   

Becouse better car means for everyone something different, peoples do not only look which car is getting more points OVERALL in comparison tests.

These cars are in the same class and are always compared together in comparison tests but this doesn't necessarily mean that someone who is considering IS-F is also considering C63AMG and M3.
Maybe IS-F is bought by previous owners of Supra or IS350 and than IS-F haven't taken over many M3 or C63 sales.
This is similar situation to the Hyundai Genesis from some recent post when author was thinking that Hyundai have taken over some BMW, Mercedes or Lexus customers. No, those are probably previous Hyundai owners who have bought the Genesis.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 8:16:58 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

This claim is based on what?
Neither Lexus, Mercedes nor BMW have posted the sales of the IS-F, C63, M3 in a while.
It will be nice if you show us the source of the information

— AdmiralT20 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 9:02:13 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Maybe it outsold the M3 sedan (limousine) version of the BMW M3. But remember BMW offer this car in both the Coupe and the Cabrio versions, which account for over 2/3 of the M3 production. Not so many customers go for the sedan version. But M3 sales are higher than that jap crap.

— JB007 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 9:03:05 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

001, before posting this flame war article, how about getting your loyal readers some actual sales numbers first?

— HSCenterconsole (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 9:26:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Exact sales figures, please...

— formula666 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 9:29:23 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

well you are only talking about one month what about the rest? remember lexus is giving the cars away so people that wanted the car are getting all the remaining 08's . BMW in the other hand ( I sell BMW's ) sold all 08 models 3 months ago so that leaves people having to pay full sticker for 09's

— dacosta70 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 9:41:04 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

another STUPID headline ... a car's performance is not compared by its price point. How idiotic is this?

People with money will rather buy a C-Class AMG model overwhelmingly over a Lexus. The fact is there are MORE people with less money that can only afford a Lexus.

Why not just crown the F150 or Camry Kings of Performance!!! Moron.

— MeanVulcan (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 9:41:35 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

dacosta,
Really, BMW has been giving away ALL their cars for over a year now. 0.9% financing on an M3 Conv. in NY.
http://www.bmwofmanhattan.com/lease/dsp_leasespecial.cfm?id=14
BMW of Sarasota FL offers 0.9% on all M3s.
http://www.bmwofsarasota.com/campaign/2008-bmw-m3.jsp
Same with this dealership.
http://www.elmhurstbmw.com/onlinespecials/onlinefinance.jsp?menu=Online%20Specials&ptitle=Finance%20Specials

In fact, its company policy to give cars away at 0.9%.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/23/bmw-offering-all-its-models-with-0-9-apr/

Lexus only approaches this if you pay off the car in 3yrs otherwise its 3.9%.
http://www.lexusofmanhattan.com/MiscPage_6

In Canada, Lexus cuts back by starting at 4.9% and cutting 0.1% for each $1000 you put down. You want 0.9% on an IS-F, you put down $40,000.
BMW is STILL offering 0.9% on most of their models (granted the M3 isn't included) but every other M model is going for 1% with $10,000+ in factory to retailer credits.
http://www.bmw.ca/content/springsale/springSale_fs.asp?lang=en

Seems to me BMW is a little more desperate for any type of sale.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 11:23:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Brainwashed Americans who think Lexus is an actual premium marquee that's who.

— VISO (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 11:31:44 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -7   

Boy I tell you, this agent001 geek thrives on throwing out flame bait. How someone with the apparent brains to run a website shows such little common sense in his logic and posts is beyond me.

If a one-month sales figure equals superiority in your mind, then I guess the 3/5 series, and c/e classes, are FAR superior to the is and gs, since they frankly kick both the toyota's asses in sales.

As for the is-f outselling in one month, so the hell what? Maybe they're piling up on lots, whereas the M and c are rarer and more special-order type vehicles. And this 'morsel' did come from a toyota mouthpiece, who's to say he even has his facts right?

Bottom line, it doesnt matter if toyota moves 5k a month, and the germans move 10 of each, this boy-racer jap toy still and always will play backup and 3rd best.

— tattedtwice (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 11:41:30 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Well Lexus currently has a $3000.00 dollar deal incentive and a .9% interest rate. BMW has the interest rate but not the cash. In addition, The IS-F has more of a margin to discount, take a look;

Base price BMW M3 Sedan

MSRP $53,800 Invoice $49,495 = $4305 Mark up

Base price Lexus IS-F

MSRP $56,000 Invoice $ 49,280 = $6720.00 Mark up + 3000 dealer cash = $9720 in possible discounts,

$5415 more room to discount than the M3

The BMW M3 sedan has always been a niche player in the U.S. and a stronger sell in Europe.

What is suspect about the number are they for U.S or the World? How much did they out sell them by?

Here’s a quote for Autoblog,

“We can't confirm, since Lexus doesn't break down sales of the IS by model”

As Mark Twain said “There are three kind of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics”.

— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 11:47:14 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

IS-F has a very hard suspension. People are actually complaining that its too hard.

But yeah, the ISF is supposed to be an sport car that anyone can drive, while bmw is more for very experienced drivers. that could be a big part of it

— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 5:16:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Dude, whatever. I don't care about clarkson or stig or any other racer/journalist. I make up my own mind. And so do most other people.

— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 10:51:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

"But yeah, the ISF is supposed to be an sport car that anyone can drive, while bmw is more for very experienced drivers. that could be a big part of it"

have you seen the fifth gear comparison test? the fast round in the is-f looked like a suicid attempt. it's not meant to be for unexperiened drivers, it's not meant to be driven fast around corners, like any lexus

— 100octane (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2008 7:50:07 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

because as the M3 goes, everyone wants the coupe! how did the M3 coupe sell against the IS-f? exactly...

— 2ndbimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 12:01:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

and i would like exact sales figures as well.

— 2ndbimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 12:06:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Because many consumers are finally coming around to understanding that the actual price of a vehicle should be directly proportional to the tangible attributes it represents.

They're all fine automobiles, but (apparently) for many shopping in this segment, the IS-F simply represents the better overall package/value.

Note: add a few options to either the BMW or the Mercedes, and they can easily top 70k, whereas the IS-F comes (pretty much) fully loaded at around 60k.

— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 12:27:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 10   

"the IS-F simply represents the better overall package/value."

Every car magazine in the world disagrees with you.

— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 12:58:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -10   

The ISF was launched at the worse possible time.Cars like this always slow down(ex.porsche)in tough times.Lexus hasn't spent that much money advertising this car.It will take time for the public to be aware that Lexus offers a high performance vehicle.I know it doesn't beat the M3 or C63 but it is the first of its kind.It still offers a great driving experience,and known quality and service.

— truthpursuit (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 1:49:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Yeah, let's just go by what someone says. Kind of like when Cadillac used to call themselves the standard of the world or something. WE shouldn't comment until there's true, raw data to support the claim. Another thread by 001 to show his allegiance and bias.

— senorgato (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 2:08:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

Ahh.... that would be SEDANS, not Sedan's......

— 204E60 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 2:44:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I for one believe Templin but one month of sales figs means nothing. How about the month before or the month before that? A LOT of reasons could have contributed to the IS-F's success and it may have nothing to do with it being "better" than the C63 or M3....
Personally I'd take the C63. It's cheaper than the "M", roomier than the IS-F and faster than both. True, it takes no skill to mash the throttle but if I wanted a challenge I'd buy an EVO and go drifting all day.....

— BondMI6 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 2:44:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

To all the fools who still think BMW commands a premium, offer up a website or dealer site that shows Lexus coming close to what BMW is giving away.

I showed you what Lexus discounts are, and they're nothing compared to what BMW has to offer to get their cars off the lot.

Bring it, anyone. Providing a little proof should be easy if BWM really is still a premium car company, not some discounting marketing gimmick that's seeing their sales/leases slowly move from 3series to 1 and Minis.

You also conveniently left out that Toyota/Lexus has only recently started offering lower rates while its old school for BMW to charge next to nothing. It's practically expected that GM, Ford and BMW pony up incentives including the kitchen sink.

BMW should go back to its roots and focus on engineering, not marketing.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 2:53:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

another bs post, all 3 of these cars are good cars and they all have been around a few months now, where are the sales figures..........lol and if you are judging how good cars are by sales........than that really saids alot and nothing good

— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 2:55:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I'm sure the IS-F is a fine, high-performance sedan...BUT the view of the auto, in front of the A-pillar makes the car look like a pregnant whale.
Not good, when the M3 and MBenz C63 look terrific.

— BMW995 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 3:17:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

The IS-F outsold the C63 and M3 as the B7 RS4 is out of production. Just wait till the RS5 comes into play, order will be restored.

— AudiNewEngland (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 3:38:38 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Before you deboost me, read below:

The IS-F is a brand new model, newer than the C63 and M3 (not saying they are old or anything), and it is normally always like this with cars people have been waiting a long time for. Also, it is Lexus' first real go at a big sports car market (don't you dare say the SC is even a bit sporty). Unlike BMW, Mercedes and Audi, who have been doing, alongside there other models, sports cars that are fast and agressive, Lexus never have really got into that market until now. Also, Lexus is pretty popular in the US so many people might be switching, as their kids get older, from their RX 330 to an IS-F. You get the point.

motor1

— motor1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 4:46:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

It's probably because people are different and have different tastes.

I'll never understand some people's attitudes here.

If an M3 or a C63 were your dream car (or what you actually drive) would you prefer that everyone else likes and drives the same car as you?

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 4:58:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

So can we assume theres a coupe-convert IS-F coming?

btw thats the regular IS in that picture

— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 5:16:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I just got home from Buca di Beppo Italian Restaurant and I was parked next to a new BMW M3 at the Irvine Market Place.

It was awesome ;->

Here's a photo of the outdoor mall.

http://www.lamf.com/pics/irvine_tustin_market_place.jpg

— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 9:34:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

optimist,
That's all fine and dandy, none of your comments explain why BMW has no choice but to offer every conceivable incentive there is to get some fob or mamma's boy to get their parents to buy/lease them a BMW.

BMW's should sell themselves, but its obvious they don't.

The E46's never needed any form of discount, even on leases. BMW's current pile of garbage would sit on the lots and rust if not for BMW HQ borrowing money so fobs can drive around interest free.

I know BMW's enough, even more than people who supposedly own 9 of them (amazinbimmer amazingly disappeared after he couldn't answer my question). If you're such a bimmer expert, what's on the rear doors of a 5-series that you don't find on most cars? Should be simple since you probably consider yourself an enthusiast.

Whoever said BMW's are men's cars because the have sticks, well, if I'm not mistaken, the new M3s offer manu-matics as well. I could be wrong, but I just assume the double-clutch-magic feel transmission is an automatic. I could very well be wrong and it's just a jazzed up manual.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 10:12:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

What's the big fuss about? So it outsold a c63amg and m3 for one month and how long has is-f been out. Next month it could be c63amg outselling m3 and is-f. The thread is pointless and just blatant flame bait.

— recca7 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2008 11:17:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

ISF sold more because of those narly faux floating exhaust tips!

Haha couldn't resist.

Lexus did a GREAT job on its first try and will be a force to be reckoned with in the next few product cycles.....but please with those retarded body panel exhaust tips, taaaaaaaaaaacky.

— kablaam (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2008 10:18:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

enthusiast,
Yes, doesn't change the fact BMW won't sell unless 0.9% is somewhere on the windshield.

BMW should've stuck with being a specialty carmaker, instead, they tried to pump out as many cars to anyone who could afford a lease just to claim they sold the highest volume.

Prove your numbers. I'd be surprised if BMW broke even with all their factory credits and low financing.

IS3,
Fobs and mamma's boys on cellphones are practically women, so BMW is the more feminine brand.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2008 3:28:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

btw enthusiast,
Toyota in the US only recently started giving 0% financing because of the economy. BMW has been offering 0.9% for over a year now, even before the economy went into the crapper.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2008 3:46:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

LOL, Toyota's $12 billion in annual profits beg to differ.

Here's some math for you. 5% financing (much less than what Toyota actually charges in Canada and what they were charging in the US until recently) over 5 years works out to be 25% of the price of a car.
Assuming your BS numbers are even true, the extra $1000 markup BMW "makes" on a sale are nothing in comparison to the $8-10,000 Toyota makes on financing. BMW salespeople (more like Leasepeople) probably haven't got a clue what financing is since most losers who show up in their garage can only afford to lease.
So what was that you were blabbering about? Oh yeah, PROFIT. Toyota has it, BMW dreams about it.

B = Bitches
M = Mamma's boys
W = Wannabes

Another fact that I've posted in the past. Toyota by itself makes nearly as much money as all of Germany's car companies combined. That's the difference when you make cars people want to get again, not cars they feel they need to lease because they're insecure.

Just found this one out. No wonder BMW moves so many Minis, their volume models in Canada charge 0%, 0 down, no 1st payment.
http://www.mini.ca/en/specialoffer/default.aspx
Same thing in the US.
http://www.miniusa.com/#/financialServices/leaseLoanSpecials-s

Sucks knowing BMW is spiralling downward to compete against Hyundai, hence all the incentives and budget 1/2 series cars to steal away Accent buyers.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2008 12:35:44 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

SHut UP!!!! and make the GS-F GS-F GS-F !!!!!!!!!

— Chaos29 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2008 1:17:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Another BS story that this site is known for. Sales numbers please! We all know the IS-F gets it ass kicked each and every time it gets compared to the M3 or C63. One month of good sales and all of sudden the Lexus is a better car? The Infiniti M killed the GS recently, does that make the Infiniti better too? WHAT BS.

— Mercedes (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2008 7:51:18 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Lexus have sold more probably becauseits different, the type of person who is in that market of buyers has probably had a BMW and a merc before. Plus the Lexus offers everything (almost) as standard. Its looks are fairly pleasing and makes a great sound. That along with 8 speed auto, comfort, a lot of power and clever , but prolonged pre-marketting has done the sales figures no harm.

— ste_u6 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2008 8:31:31 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Sales figures?
Or we just gonna believe you?

Statements like this require hard evidence. Without evidence, why all this girlie talk?

— vladyxa (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2008 3:18:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Blah blah blah for all tha comments above. Same ol comments, same ol BS.

SORRY, this is jus rediculous.

Buy each of those 3 cars and drive them 1 year each...than comment here. Thats tha only way to find out TRUTH!!!


G

— RefuG (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2008 3:03:49 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Because IS-F is a lot CHEAPER than C63 or M3.

Due to the economy, Lexus is offering really low APR + Pricing right now.

I chose to buy M3 DCT anyways.

— MrGunFun (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2008 5:36:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1