Will Hyundai's Equus Catch Lexus With Their Pants Down Again?

Yes, Hyundai is so confident, they are saying it will do better in the U.S. than the VW Phaeton.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 1:27:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 10   

lol +1

— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 1:30:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

LOL+2

— wins555 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 11:30:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

People who buy Lexus's don't buy them for brand name recognition. They buy them because they are cheap luxury. Hyundai will murder them.

— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 1:22:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Wouldn't touch a 60K Hyundai with a 10ft cattle prod.

— M0T0RH3AD (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 1:32:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 9   

I have to hand it to Hyundai. In just 1993 they were importing crap boxes over here with drive-train parts cribbed from Mitsubishi.

Now they are credibly challenging the near-luxury class.

Sometimes the most successful people or ventures are those who don't know they "cant do" something.

— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 2:06:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

Yes....the economy is getting destroyed and no one has the money for an S-Cass Mercedes anymore, even at 15-20% cheaper the Lexus LS460 and 460L are not as convincing as the Hyundai in terms of value. I personally like Lexus quality, but Hyundai is not far off. I don't like any Hyundai cars accept the Genesis but even that car has issues. There is no perfect car, more models means more competition and better products for the consumer...So bring it on Hyundai! lol

— pennfootball (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 2:26:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I believe all luxury car manufactures are watching Hyundai, don't be fooled. It is ignorant to think, that a person who is poised to purchase luxury without the label flagging in front of them, check out Hyundai, then purchase one, then is multiplied over and over, you see where this ends up. Lexus is hurt yes in the long run, but a sale is a sale and you will see an affect over a period of time the way premium makes watch Lexus eat their lunch.

— inspirion7 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 2:26:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Basically it is idiotic to compare a hyundai to a Lexus. Common sense here 009. Value wise it would compare ok aganist a fully loaded Toyota Avalon. Trust me, the Merced,BMW and Lexus crowd would'nt be seen driving a hyundai. I dont care how bad this economy gets people will still want to drive the best name brand cars.....Period. Answer to your question...Hell to the No! hyundai will catch Lexus with their pants down with some fake wana-be Japanese Import.

— lexworld (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 2:45:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I still think Hyundai should have created a new luxury nameplate for these cars. Could've made a big difference with regards to public perception.

— PlanB (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 3:05:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

If Equus is a threat to Lexus then it's a threat to the Germans too. Why no mention of them and only Lexus?

JUGNU

— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 3:19:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

Luxury knockoff bargoons!

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 3:29:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

where does the again come from? the genesis? oh yeah, lexus must be in damage control

— LexusKindaGuy12 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 4:06:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

The real question is whether Hyundai can get Koreans to lose their insecurities and actually buy one instead of leasing some dime a dozen German stripper?

Kind of makes you wonder who'd want to buy a Genesis when they can get this for a few hundred bucks more.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 4:13:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

So what does the Equus offer that Lexus and the Germans don't? Oh, just a lower price, typical.

Lexus succeeded because they offered what the Germans don't and what the Koreans can't. Watch out Hyundai, China is getting closer.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 4:15:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

I think the Equus will be equally if not more impressive than the Genesis. Hyundai is making strides and it's vehicles are proof of it. They won't be as good as Lexus is right now but they have a chance to be the same as how the rebadged Toyota's once was in the 90's. I respect Hyundai for making an effort in the luxury segments and they can do some damage whether its at a large scale or a minimal, they will capture some market share, with this recession in place.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 6:06:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Compare cars from both the Lexus and Hyundai Website. Hyundai in terms of performance is close, and in terms of Gas Mileage Hyundai is Ahead. Gas Mileage is what matter these days.

By the Way the Equus is made to fight Maybachs, Rolls Royces, and Maserattis on price. Not Lexuses. Hyundai=Lexus KIA=Toyota Equus=Maybach. Iam suprised you didnt know that Agent009. Maybe there's a reason why the thing has Rolls Level of comfort, yet only costs $70,000.

1. The Next Gen Sonata has superior Specs and Fuel Economy than an ES. This is not Hyundai Fan Boi BS, its truth look at the Lexus Website and then look at what Hyundai has been saying the specs for the Next Gen Sonata are. The Next Gen Sonata will have a V6 like the ES yet get 6 more horsepower, and 6 more MPG. The 4 banger will be rated at about 35-37 mpg, and Lexus doenst even sell a 4 Banger ES. The Sonata of course will cost $16-$17 to get in a base model, and go as high as $28 most likely.

2. The Genesis Sedan outperforms the LS that costs $40,000 more in almost every category. Only the LS 60 has superior performance, but in these times fuel economy matters, and even the Genesis V8 has superior Fuel Economy.

3. Lexus has abandoned small cars and hatches in favor of big baby boomer sedans. Hyundai is determined on making the small cars as good as a Genesis.

4.The Azera is catching up to the ES. One Engine upgrade and it can be ahead of the ES. For $10,000 less, Hummm.....


In some cases Hyundai Performance can be a little Lacking, but the Lexus Products do not give value conscious buyers like myself a good arguement to buy besides, "Oh its a Lexus." You get Nearly ES, GS, and LS performance and Fit and Finish for the same price as Grandaddy's Accords, Camrys, Impalas, and Tauruses. You cant beat that, Guys!!!!



This is the first time I have compared Lexus and Hyundai Products, becuase ive never saw a reason why out of respect for Lexus. However, I have deduced that Lexus is in more trouble than what I thought it was.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 10:19:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

I meant LS 460

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 10:20:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

Some of the comments here show a little too much defense toward Lexus.
And the other side of the comments show the other way for Hyundai. If a Chinese car can compete with good quality and lower price, then it's good for all consumers, isn't it? If Hyundai can compete with Lexus, then let the game roll. Consumers don't need to stand in defense for a particular company because of past nameplate. When I see an overly defensive comment by some of the users here for Lexus, I question their intention of posting it. Why is it so angry and disturbing for Hyundai to stand up against Lexus? Us consumers love competition. and if it can bring down absurdly high price of the luxury cars, it need to be praised for even initiating. We can't just let the prices to go high. Our salary increase lately has not been able to match with the pace of these German and Japanese manufacturer's. In fact, our jobs have been cutting lately. Hyundai, actually, is help us consumers to want those luxury features and performance at an affordable prices. And if Hyundai succeeds, Japanese and German will also lower their prices. All this because of competition. My two cents...

— zorovac (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 10:27:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

As with Lexus who needs to go "sporty" in order to grow, Hyundai needs to go "decent and pseudo luxury" in order to grow too. LOL!!!

— wins555 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2009 11:37:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Hyundaismoke,
How about you back that up with facts? Go to www.fueleconomy.gov and see how the EPA rates Toyotas and Hyundais versus your "claimed" mileage for next year after Hyundai rips apart Toyota's engines to find out how its done.

2010 Camry I4 and V6 = 22/33/25mpg 19/28/23mpg
2010 Sonata I4 and V6 = 22/32/25mpg 19/29/22mpg
In both cases, the Toyota has a lower carbon footprint and consumes less oil per year.

2009 GS350/GS460 = 19/26/22mpg 17/24/20mpg
2009 Genesis V6/V8 = 18/27/21mpg 17/25/19mpg
2009 Toyota Avalon = 19/28/23mpg
Once again, the Lexus/Toyota engine is cleaner and consumes less oil than Hyundai's latest and greatest Tao engine. The Lexus V6 also matches the Genesis V8 in performance. As you'll notice, the Avalon, Genesis' true competition outmileages it and is cleaner.

Go down the entire model lineup, Yaris easily beats Accent.
Corolla lays a beatdown on the Elentra.
Bigger displacement Highlander matches Santa Fe.
Toyota RAV4's V6 gets better mileage than the Tucson's 4-cylinder and has the same carbon footprint and oil consumption. Thats pathetic.
On top of this, Hyundai doesn't even have a clone of the Prius and Camry-hybrid yet (maybe they'll be able to put one back together next year).

Zorovac,
Because some people like to blindly parrot what journalists are paid to say even if the facts say otherwise.
Read the fine print and you'll see what the true cost of the lower initial prices are (inferior jobloss protection, higher fees like delivery and missing features such as curtain airbags).
Hyundai should be reminded where its true place is, behind Toyota until it can prove otherwise. Luxury cars require first rate engineering, not just loads of dead animals, copycat designs and paying bribes to journalists.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 12:03:56 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Hyundaismoke,
Here's an Edmunds compario between the Genesis V8 and GS350.
Key notes are Genesis interior is good, but it doesn't match the Lexus.
Genesis feature are also difficult to use (i.e. iDrive clone and crappy iPod feature).
GS has better handling characteristics (big fail for Hyundai there).
Performance wise, Genesis was disappointing relative to its specs.
Genesis interior felt cheaper and brakes wore down faster (meaning cheap).
Mileage wasn't even close.
Lastly, Genesis was too generic looking without any badging on it (I wonder why).


Read the 2nd last paragraph, it states the obvious. At ths price range, money generally isn't much of a concern to those who actually have it.
The last paragraph should say Hyundai is better off playing with Toyota.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=130686

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 12:17:02 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

But huu, thats the point of Hyundais new Kuxry Initiative. Its not quite a Lexus, but its a damm good try, and for that price or even much more you get cheaper quality i.e. American Products (Buick, Lincoln, Chrysler).

You know Ima right huu!!! Hyundai may have their eyes on Lexus, but we we all know Allan Mulally, Sergio Marchionne, and Fritz Henderson are wearing depends just in case of an accident. I think Hyundai knows this too.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:13:57 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Lucury

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:14:54 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Sorry Luxury.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:15:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

"Oh its a Lexus." You get Nearly ES, GS, and LS performance and Fit and Finish for the same price as Grandaddy's Accords, Camrys, Impalas, and Tauruses.- HyundaiSmoke

Didnt I say that huu? Let me emphasize again. The key term is NEARLY!!!

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:19:51 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu, you may call us. Well what did you say before? "Imitation Luxury Cars." huu, this economy is done for the next 10 years. I believe in that double dip W shaped recession the doom sayers speak of. The Problem in the long term is oil prices and will continue to be so forever. In this time wher eyou have ex executives on Food Stamps and cooking rats on the sid eof a bridge. Hey, you need. Well what did you say? "Imitation Luxury Cars."

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:25:14 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Hyundai needs all of its line up to be "Imitation Luxury Cars" to build upon a sturdy platform, which is their well established fuel efficiency and quality. Thats the same basis Lexus, Infinti, and Acura started from.

The forst 10-12 years of these brads were about high fuel efficiency and quality. That time these cars were just rebadged and dazzled up versions of Nissans, Toyotas, and Hondas. Why wouldnt Hyundai in some cases follow that recipe? Get a KIA, do lots of work do it and put basic Luxury Items in them such as leather as standard. Hyundai is doing thta with its small Accent and Elantra Sized cars in Europe. It has paid dividends, becuase those cars are the final nominees for European car of the year.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:35:13 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

By 2011, Hyundai will have all of its pieces together in this aspect, and you will see the Kit (But better and more updated) in the small cars from Europe that will get passed on to cars here. While in Europe they will get the Big car product sold here in the US.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:39:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

Having spent many days driving Lexus GS/LS/IS and also the Hyundai Genesis here a some thoughts.

Genesis quality. Matter of personal choice but I found the Genesis to be just as luxurious as an LS460/GS and I liked the dash design better- very reminiscent of the current S550 and its curved dash with a slight bulge in the middle.

Performance. oooooo....not so good.....BUT.....handling thru the twisties is not this car's game anyways so this is a moot point.

Based on my experience driving Benzes, Bimmers, Jags(yes the XF not just the geriatric XJ) and Lexus(including the LS 600) I would say Hyundai is at a similar point to Lexus say, oh around 1998 or so....

Based on this and as long as they don't screw it up somehow then Hyundai will in short time be right up there w/ the rest- especially if the econ downturn continues for another year or so....

Oh, and kudos to Jeff Bridges doing the voice for Hyundai's commercials- not quite as good as the Lexus guy but very good indeed....

— BondMI6 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 1:51:43 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

According to Car and Driver's Expedition they did to Europe. "Hyundai Small Euro cars are Almost Audi Good." "They surely are ahead of the Hondas of the world now, but the Hyundai i20 just doesnt ooze the Interior craftsmship of an Audi A2 not quite yet, however this car bodes well for the Accent model in the US enough to convince American buyers that Hyundai has become a premium brand."

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 2:53:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

http://www.hyundaibuzz.com/2009/04/hyundai%e2%80%99s-50000-puzzle-how-to-sell-new-luxury-car/

This is why there will be no Genesis brand, and the Genesis will be a RWD badging they use. This is from the Hyundai Corporate Blog and Web Magazine.

"Unlike Toyota and Honda, which sell their luxury models through separate dealerships, Hyundai may either offer Equus to all U.S. dealers that want it or to only those with the best sales and highest quality service, Krafcik said. Starting a stand-alone luxury network would be difficult during the current slump as dealers would have trouble getting financing, he said.

“That would be a terrible idea,” said Rick Case, who owns six Hyundai dealerships in Florida, Georgia and Ohio. “In this market, no dealer could afford it.”

Fort Lauderdale, Florida-based Case said Genesis is attracting luxury buyers because it isn’t a well-known premium vehicle, a benefit amid the current recession"

-Hyundai Motor America

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 5:05:30 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

problem here is we seem to underestimate just how powerful Lexus is when it comes to their marketing and advertising strategy. Dont think for a second Lexus is going to let Hyundai beat them at their own game when they technically are not in the same class. Trust me they'll get trumped by Toyota before that will happen.

— lexworld (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 3:11:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Hyundai is not in the same class as Lexus today, but Hyundai is in the same class as Lexus was humm lets say in 1992.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 9:04:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

1. Lexus had to build a reputation of Luxury and style with the backbone of Toyota Quality and Fuel Efficiency. Lexus sold their cars at a Bargain compared to the Estabhlished American Luxury Makes. Lexus essentially raped Mercury, Lincoln, Chrysler, Cadillac, and Buick for the first 5-10 years of its existence.

2. Lexus in the last 10 years has raised the bar and Prices naturally in terms of Interior appointment and Performance oriented high end models. Lexus is now Raping and pillaging the Established European Makes: BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Benz in terms of price. Only Audi comes even close to competing with Lexus on Price.

3. Since Lexus has gone even more upmarket theres a big wide gap open for an afforable, quality, fuel efficent Premium make to just walk on in. However, Hyundai hasnt been walking in, they have been crawling. Examples: XG 300, and XG 350 cars.

4. Do you guys really think that the Americans are going to clean up and make quality affordable Luxury models? My ass, they will!!! I bet that Baby Buick, Baby Lincoln, and that Baby Caddy will be the price of a Base trim IS, and most likely with less features, including power, and material fitment. Thats not making new customers and taking some marketshare, thats what Hyundai is about.

5. Look at the age of the Average American Luxury buyer. These are people who harken back to the days of 1957 Mercury Turnpike Crusiers, where the Koreans were still riding Donkeys while the Japanese were making Yugos, and the Germans were making Hyundai Genesises, Azeras, and Sonatas. BTW, Our baby Brother KIA makes a Modern Mercury Turnpike Crusier for only $24,000 called the Amanti.

Hyundai/KIA/Equus doesnt care if they are the number one make in the world. They love to stay in the top five, but they want to be the dominant undisputed quality leader. They are about taking some marketshare, and getting new customers. By the way, price targets arent a big factor in products anymore. Getting a whale of a car for what you pay is their phillosophy.

Unlike Lexus/Toyota/Scion/Subaru who are out to destroy companies i.e. GM.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 9:31:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Humm abcd, I didnt see then say that in that article, and that site is the official Hyundai News provider. Its a corporate and fan site. That Left Lane News Article was questionable, however.

BTW They dont even call it the Hyundai American Division. Lmao!!!!

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 9:40:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

And its from a guy who was just a spokesman, whos not even employed by Hyundai anymore, LMAO!!!!!

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 9:46:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Invisible,
I can't believe you actually tried to refute me.
Both cars have similiar mileage, but Hyundai burns more oil to get it. Understand now? Toyota engineering is superior, Hyundai just plays catch up all the time. That's why Toyota can get more out of less.

Hyundaismoke,
So now Hyundai goes from Lexus killer to Lexus near immitator. Which is it? Also, if all Hyundai has going for it is price, then its not going to steal people who can afford a Lexus because if they want one, they'll buy one. Hyundai's immitation mechanicals are no match for Toyota's engineering, so how are they going to take on an engine/chassis massaged for Lexus?

The Genesis was designed to steal sales from the Avalon which it still can't outsell. Journalists decided to hype up Hyundai as a Lexus killer because the Germans can't do it.

You also keep forgetting that the original LS offered people technology the Germans didn't at a lower price, now that price has nearly matched the Germans. What is Hyundai offering right now that Toyoat doesn't offer? Hyundai will be a Toyota competitor, if they want Lexus, they'll have to beat Toyota first.
All the incentives, rebates, gas cards and offers Hyundai is offering on the Genesis must do wonders for its resale value.

As for the Equus, if all its going to be equipped with is the Tao engine, don't hold your breath for blazing performance.

You know I'm right, that's why you're changing your tune.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 11:40:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Hyundaismoke,
Hyundai is not in the same class as Lexus of 1992 because even then the Lexus offered things no one else did. What does Hyundai have to offer besides a lower price to attract people who want to live beyond their means?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/30/2009 11:42:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Huu, The Azera offers near Lexus ES perfomance for $10,000 less. I dont see Buick or Mercury providng that. It was not designed to out sell an Avalon huu. It was a car to get people to look a tthe brand, and then to get people to want Hyundai do that to all of their cars.

Hyundais are not Lexus Killers. Hyundais are going to be Buick and Mercury Killers. I have said that time and time again, huu. Don't make me go back and get my quotes from the Lexus Killer articles from 8,9, 10 months ago.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 7/1/2009 1:22:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

The Young people like Buicks, but arent willing to pay too much for them. Hyundai can provide the same appointment for thousands less.

Hyundai will be what Buick could be if they Modernized. The way GM tried to pass SAAB off as, and Ford tried Volvo. The premium car for the person who makes a decent wage, but doesnt want to pay even Lexus Prices, much less BMW prices. The Kind of people who are Conservative in their Personal Finances, but do want a little bit of Premium taste as long as they can get it for less. They also want the Kind of people who will buy the 5, 10 year old used Audi, Infiniti, Cadillac, etc... "Hey you get the same appointment and perforances as that used Audi, but its new, and it might even be cheaper." That who's Hyundia going for.

Hyundai should have a Bentley like (But much cheaper) brand to test out performance and Luxury Tech. Huu, they are going to stretch that motor to 5.5 Liters by the way, of course coming with a boatload more power.

Think about it:

The Brand should be called Equus. I mean its already has VS 460 on the back as well.

I can See:

Equus VS 260

Equus VS 360

and

Equus VS 460

VS Then 4 for Model 60 for appointment level and trim.
Equus should and can be an affordable alternative to Bentley or Rolls Royce. Just look at the Appointment on this car, its not Lexus Comparable, its Bentley Comparable. Even the Sonata has more in common with a Lexus than this thing. They should make a Coupe priced at $56,000. Make it Ferarri Enzo fast like a Covette, but for half the price.

The Big Sedan should be VS 400 Series. The Coupe should be VS 300 Series. An Azera Sized Sedan should be the VS 200 Series.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 7/1/2009 1:35:27 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

foez,
Please read my previous comments.
A first test proves nothing when in a head to head, the Genesis clearly underperformed vs a GS350.
The more spacious interior is mainly because of the big dome roofline, legroom is not better than the Avalon. You should actually sit in a Genesis before you pretend to know something about it.
Also, I'll trust the gov't updated EPA (which generally is the same as what magazine tests end up with) than what you say.

Hyundaismoke,
Hyundai can stretch the engine to 5.5 litres, but can their engineers do anything with it (i.e. GS350 leaves the Genesis V6 in the dust, matches the V8. GS460 beats them all. Then there's the GS450h)? Judging by the Tao, all it'll do is end up burning more gas.

As for image, you may think Hyundai is reaching for the realm of luxury, I disagree with you. Sales and incentives will show who's right, and right now Hyundai is following the same path thats BMW is taking, the one that leads downmarket.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/1/2009 12:02:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Lmao@huu!!!! How? In this Eocnomy you need incentives. Then again huu you guys at Toyota/Lexus/Scion/Subaru know nothing of the sort. Yet, you guys have the nerve to question why your sales have been down by 30, 0, and 50% for almost a year.

Why is that huu? I wonder what would happen if Toyota/Lexus/Scion/Subaru offered real incentives. I bet their sales would be up a couple of points, and not down by over 40, but hey thats my 2 cents.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 7/1/2009 9:10:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

40

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 7/1/2009 9:10:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1