Is Lexus losing its' appeal?

Hmmm...smells like sour grapes to me!

001

The whole point here is that just because someone is on top now, doesn't mean they will stay on top. A number of individuals have grown tired of the now high prices and ubiquity of Lexus vehicles on the road. They are looking elsewhere.

I have two words for everyone who doubts lexus...IS 500(ISS) this car will give audi and bmw a run for their money... Lets give some more examples of Lexus innovation

1. LS 460 8 speeds i touch parking
2. LS 600h hybrid 8 speed, lane assist driving( keeps you between the lines(drives itself), accident detections( begin to adjust and apply breaks and detects weather the object is a person or an object for faster respons, and notifies you via a flashing light if your not looking at the road...Built in hardrive for music and movies..

3. LFH..Leaves mercedes in the dust.

4. GS500h -V8 hybrid with balls that can still give you 30+ mpg.

our Audi store looks like it is going to have the best month in history
and great gross also

Audi may well have its best month, it has been adding new models and if it didn't have a good month in terms of increases in sales [off a small base] I would be shocked.

There's another reason Audi will have a good month, incredibly cheap lease deals - which Lexus doesn't have to match.

Not where I'm at. Audi lease deals are relatively the same as BMW and MB.

It's this mentality of believing they can charge a premium, that I think will lead to Lexus' demise, because although the cars themselves usually are less expensive than the competition, the lease deals are not.

Diminishing quality and lessening exclusivity, while commanding higher prices = a loss of customers.

Lexus isn't going anywhere but up anytime soon. There is too much going for them. The fact that there are so many Lexus cars in the Audi dealerships is probably because there are too many of them here. The sheer number of them actually makes it interesting. It is very common to see Lexus at “tote the note” lots here, a place typically reserved for Pinto, Mavericks and Gremlins. And don’t expect to get top dollar on trade in either; there is more than an ample supply, so the resale value suffers as well.

As far as German performance goes:
I guess it all depends if you are a proactive driver and appreciate the ability to accelerate, stop, and handle in a fully competent manner. Some people are simply more passive and are concerned with the pamper factor rather than the performance factor. Passive drivers are great until they get in my way on the interstate doing 55 in a 80 mph zone. Then they are nothing more than a road hazard.

You know, if Audi and BMW can engineer large SUV's to stop at shorter distances than a Lexus sedan, I'd say you've got a point there.

The LS brakes are frighteningly incompetant.

Well I'm sorry you just can't handle the truth, Will.

The point here was that even though Audi/VW has had problems, they are improving at an alarming rate, while Toyota seems to be losing ground.

Most Lexus owners buy their cars precisely for perceived quality, what is going to happen once they see the one thing they coveted, being ripped away?

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. VAG is improving, and Lexus issues are starting to surface more due to volume.

Why doesn't Lexus sell well outside of the US? Why in Germany and across Europe, Audi, BMW, even Mercedes are perceived by consumers and the press as being higher quality than Lexus?

not according to several articles i've seen of consumer surveys in germany.

where japanese brands are in the top 5. and certain 'prestige' brands rank as low as the high teens, low 20s.

By the way if you could remember probably a month ago..Even the Germans gave the LEXUS their highest honors..The Gold Wheel Award..which none of their top cars including the 2007 Mer S500 did not win....Go fugure.

Lets give LEXUS its dues...They make far better cars than the Germans who rely on their goodwill as we call it in accounting to sell their cars.

Take the Lotus Estridge that was re-introduced last year or was it two years ago into the market. People are paying top dollars to own one..but guess what it has a toyota celica's 1.8 engine and transmission (the emperor's new clothes). Yet these same people will not buy a celica..It all boils down to perception.

Given a couple of years down the road, we will not be having this argument as the lines between the Germans and the Japanese as far as luxury cars are concerned will be very blurry.

Tell you the truth, my forte is Infinity but I very much admire Lexus for taking the lead and staying on top of all Japanese luxury brands when in the '80s people were fedup of purchasing Germans even British Luxury cars with very poor quality control.

Talking about Audi for instance people do easily forget that they had to withdraw their products from the U.S. because of the quality control issues..It is only in the past few years that they re-introduced their product into the American market. And by the way they are still struggling with quality control issues..

Whether some of us like it or not LEXUS and the other Japanese luxury brands are here to stay.

What in the hell are you talking about? Audi never withdrew from the American market.

I'd like to see how well Lexus would fare if something mechanical was said to cause Lexus vehicle's to accelerate out of control. True or not, it would affect sales.

Audi's near withdrawal was due to this.

"...if something mechanical was said to cause Lexus vehicle's to accelerate out of control. True or not, it would affect sales."


the best analysis i've read on this: while it was true that many of the unintended acceleration could be attributed to driver error rather than mechanical defect, it nevertheless was also true that POOR DESIGN contributed to this.
the brake pedals were too close to the height of the gas pedal, making for EASY misapplication of the accelerator when one meant to brake.

the fault STILL falls on audi.

some people think no one can touch the germans on anything having to do with autos and engineering.

well, they seem to be behind the japanese on ERGONOMICS. no japanese car, REGARDLESS of price, was designed where one could as easily hit the gas as the brake. toyotas are also reknown for controls that "easily fall to hand." honda is widely acknowledged as having the BEST fwd transmissions and shift linkages.

the germans trailed even the americans, to say nothing of the japanese, in designing EFFICIENT assembly plants. which build cars with far lower defect rates.

some german engineers themselves, when queried by a journalist, "Where is the most advanced engine research lab today?", replied, "In Japan."

100%
all japanese fans lost the sel,because they products are copied from mercedes and other german and europe fan.

Audiman4
"The point here was that even though Audi/VW has had problems, they are improving at an alarming rate, while Toyota seems to be losing ground."

One of the problems Audi had were lack of models in different categories. As we have already them, lately unveiling so many new models that resulted in a big turnaround for the company.

Well if u takes out RS4, Q7 and R8 from Audi's Line-up. What has left with them?

It’s only these new Audi models which made all the difference, therefore same will happen to Lexus when they will shortly unveil IS500,LF-A,SC and LX.It will rise once again in so called Appeal, Lexus will once again rule people's heart and mind(if u think some dent has been made in it's Appeal and exclusiveness).

Will
"As people "question" these aspects, Lexus will just continue to shift their priorities to other areas (i.e. performance, luxury)."

Agree with you. Moreover, prove is the new IS500, LF-A and new SC.Which will bring revolution in Lexus's Performance.


JUGNU----->THE CARMAN

"It’s only these new Audi models which made all the difference..."

Well, not exactly. The A6 has won more awards than any other car in the last two years, and the A8 is considered a class-leader. A4 and A3 are also very strong products. They're very popular cars.

But otherwise- EXACTLY! And why shouldn't it be any other way? Their new cars are making a difference! That's not an excuse- that's progression!

Its mostly BS. Lexus was launched into the arena because it was 'somewhat exclusive'. I'm not so sure how that happened though. but I'm sure we all remember how the term 'LEXUS LS 400' would roll off your tongue. It was not a Mercedes nor a BMW. It was another make, with a luxurious interior, with chucky A, B and C pillars, giving it that umph. It was a 'Lexus' - and what a deliciously sounding name at that.
But as you know 'reasonably priced' + 'exclusive' do not hold for long and thus Toyota (seeing that the experiment had achieved positive results) then played the most obvious card that caught competition flat footed. Thus 'reliable' came into the equation. Brilliant strategy.
In the case of Dallas, the 'too common' aspect outweighed the 'reliability' aspect.

Part of the equation is that in Dallas (and in others areas) people want to stand out from the crowd.

The Lexus dealerships here do an outstanding job selling cars no doubt. But if you want to have something a bit more exclusive, then Lexus is not for you.

BMW and Mercedes and Land Rover are very popular here as well. That pretty much leaves Audi, Jaguar if you want a higher end marquee, that isn't three houses down.

It is a testament to Lexus success when you walk up to a car at the mall and press your remote to unlock it, and find you car is actually 5 more Lexus down from the one you are trying to unlock. They are that common here.

In this major metropolitan area reliability is not nearly the factor as in a small town or more rural area, so it really does not factor in.

After returning from Missouri this weekend and passing through Arkansas Mountains and the Oklahoma Indian Reservations, it was quite apparent that even if you owned a Toyota and broke down then it was a serious problem. Basically in those areas it better be a GM or Ford product or you were screwed.

except that toyotas (and lexi) just about NEVER break down. and if they EVER do, almost never in the middle of nowhere. most could 'limp home' long before other makers thot to design that in.

i've owned toyotas going back 35 years. i've lived in alaska more than 25 years. even in THIS harsh, unforgiving environment, i've NEVER been stranded out in the boonies.

"Thus 'reliable' came into the equation."

actually, it was there FROM THE START. some guy reported checking out an '89 LS400. said it STILL looked like a car no more than 4 - 5 years old. and DROVE as if it were barely broken in.

Reliable enters the equation for the paranoid only....

Will,

You and I agree on something....OMG!

I think saying that reliability matters only to those that are paranoid is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on autospies.com.

Lexus never had appeal! If it did, it would have beaten Mercedes/BMW to the top..But it doesnt..

Oh it has appeal...

To the same people that but buy "Whopper Choppers", "The Ginsu Knives", and all other infomercial gadgets. It is all marketing and Lexus should be right up there with Ronco and the "Popeil Pocket Fisherman"

As PT Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute...and I'll take two to take 'em." Lexus marketing execs. took that to heart.

obviously, you are TOTALLY IGNORANT of what happened in the u.s.

I am quite aware of what is going on in the US. Lexus is a marketing juggernaut. Probably the best example of automotive marketing to ever be seen in the US.

If you noticed the superlatives did not mention engineering.

Lexus is a marketing phenomenon, but not an engineering wonder by any stretch .

Few questions for you Plano,

Why don't you think Lexus is doing well in the engineering department?

If Lexus has the most awards for vehicle build quality (which they do), wouldn't that be engineering? Or maybe you think it's magic?

It has beaten BMW and Mercedes to the top in the world's largest luxury market the US.

Answer:

"Why don't you think Lexus is doing well in the engineering department? "

Name the industry awards Lexus has won for engineering in the last 5 years? Also name the industry advancements Lexus has made in the last 5 years? Now with that list compare them to BMW, MB, or even VW. and you will see readily.

"If Lexus has the most awards for vehicle build quality (which they do), wouldn't that be engineering? "

Manufacturing quality on the assembly line is an indication of perfection of a process, not necessarily an overall indicator in engineering competence. For example I can make the worlds most perfectly built broom; it still pales in comparison to say a Dyson Vacuum cleaner in performance. The Dyson due to all of the moving parts will mathematically be less reliable as well. So do you want a broom or a Dyson?

"Or maybe you think it's magic?"

The magic is in the marketing, They are simply the best in that area no doubt.

rather than losing it's appeal, i think lexus is ONLY JUST BEGINNING to hit its stride.

1st month sales of LS460 in japan: 9x initial estimates! mitch at lexus of marin (county, CA) reported initial allotment SOLD OUT.

when the LF-A hits the showroom, yet more traffic will be generated.

Those intial estimates of potential first years sales were very low for the LS460. But they are selling well, hence the 9 fold increase.

Obviously, this post was to get at Lexus. This thread was created by an Audi fan, duh.
Interestingly, I've come across a couple of very rich friends whom are in the market to purchase a new vehicle. They both were looking at purchasing an Audi. And a couple of my friends in response to that, said "Don't do it, I've owned Audi's before" and even went further to say that "The build quality is inferior to a Lexus".

Aside from that, there was a post earlier while I was reading that stated along the lines of why Lexus isn't well known outside of the U.S.. I really don't like to mock on people for any reason, but the level of misinformed and extremely bias opinion when it comes to car companies just baffles me.
Does one not know that Lexus has only been around for 17-18 some odd years? Did he/she know that it started in the States? Did they know that Ford/MBz/BMW has been around for more than 50 years possibly more than a century. A lot of people are familiar with these cars for the simple reason of being around longer.
The fact that Lexus has been around for only 18 years and have gone international with the company and has been praise for their build quality, might just lead some people to think that in 20 more years, they might just surpass some of the "prestige" car makers.
For now, Lexus doesn't hold up a level of achievement that some might perceive MBz or BMW to be. One has to wonder why a car company so young surpassed them in build quality and almost up to the same level of driving experience among other things on so many levels. Although, Lexus doesn't seem to care a lot about driving dynamics and are more geared toward luxury and accomodation for intuitive driving. One might also think, why does a German car that costs 100K or more, is not intuitive. Isn't that what defines a luxury vehicle. It's suppose to make everything 'easy' for you. Well, for one, its not called an IDrive.

My two cents.

lexus is breaking never seen before sales records in the South African automotive history because their new global strategy is starting to bear fruit.for a brand that was relaunched in july this year here is remarkable, the IS is selling like hot cakes.

lexus is breaking never seen before sales records in the South African automotive history because their new global strategy is starting to bear fruit.for a brand that was relaunched in july this year here is remarkable, the IS is selling like hot cakes.

Well Yugos used to sell in Yugoslavia too...

Why has the Lexus ES350 blended in with the scenery so fast?

EL34^^^^^^??????

Will, here is a phto of a Altima and one of a S550, please tell how the Benz looks like the Nissan, because I don't see it!

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/01/altimaser06_05.jpg

http://www.dennigcars.com/2007_Mercedes_Benz_S_Class_S500_Side_View.jpg

The lexus design philosphy is 'play it safe'. That is why the line between the Toyota and Lexus is so very fine. Lexus needs to branch out on their own, have their own design studio and develop a unique style and driving dynamic that doesnt mimic the parent Toyota.

Will, I looked at those photos of that old Altima youre comparing to the new S-Class and the only thing I can say is, that's a real dome scratcher, a real eye blinker because the Altima is clearly a ripoff of the MB 300E.

Altleast the S-class doesn't look the a bloated Camry LS. You can slap a Lexus badge on an imposter, but it's still a Toyota.

Speaking of imminent Toyota/Lexus demise, just take a look at the monthly sales numbers posted on this very website every month. Toyota/Lexus is outselling itself every month and Lexus has the highest sales in the luxury brands.

I understand that people in this forum are not drawn to Lexus. This is an auto enthusiasts forum! But guess what, you're in the minority. Revel in your difference but don't bash the winner just because they are the winner.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, and I truthfully hope it doesn't, but believe me when I tell you it's only a matter of time before Toyota experiences what all other car manufacturers of their scale have gone through. No one could have imagined Ford on the brink of bankruptcy or GM struggling to get into the black neither.

There are three things working against Toyota.
1.) What goes up, must come down. Companies simply can not continue to grow at the same rate. Think Microsoft.
2.) Not everyone wants a Toyota.
3.) The theory of inevitabilty. Toyota will have a major recall. They already have had several "smallish" ones this year. Look at the effect reliability had on Mercedes and you can see that this could be a major problem.

Excellent point. Look back twenty years ago, the Taurus was the best selling and most highly respected family sedan. Ford was extrememly profitable during this period, as was GM.

Then, Toyota took over. But now we're starting to see some cracks (however small they might be) emerge. Quality was the one thing that drove people to Toyota initially, now that is starting to deteriorate.

Hyundai is posing some serious threats to Toyota, and actually delivering. Empire's rise and fall, and it's high time for Toyota!

good point, will.

on another forum, some guy was always crowing about how the phenomenal growth of hyundai meant certain doom for toyota.

had to point out to him: hyundai market share, UP. toyota market share, UP. gm and ford market share, DOWN. hyundai's sales growth was coming at the expense of gm and ford. while toyota also CONTINUED to grow in sales as well.

some people love to CREATE their own (false) realities, from ISOLATED facts.

The very success of current Lexus sales will hurt it in the long run. They seem to prioritize a Wal-Mart type approach, sell as many as they can to the largest demographic they can (this dilutes their design philosphy). They are trying to be all things to all people. Not appealing to the enthusiast.

While I have lots of respect for their reliability I feel (read: my opinion)is Lexus needs time to mature, develop something (an image) of their own, as currently they are young and have not earned the respect their elders have. They basically have entered the market by 'borrowing' what others have taken decades to learn, by trial and error, research, development, etc. Lexus needs to learn a few things for themselves in order to gain the respect that they seem to demand by their overly zealous fans.

They aren't trying to be everything to everyone as this community can attest to. They are great at what they do to a large part of the population and they are voting with their checkbooks.

In what way specifically?

I know of the extra gear in the normal transmission and the crystal look headlights. The self park Feature is not getting good reviews at present. But I guess I want to know where it breaks new ground?

Its more refine than a S-Class. It has body sensored climate control. In my opinion, it looks better than a S Class. What makes the Lexus more refined than a S Class, you might ask? How about little things like a 36 feet turning radius as oppose to the Benz whopping 40 feet turning radius (engineering gone wrong), rear view camera that, I think, should be standard on the Benz is not. The car doesn't look as gappy as a Benz. How about being able to extract 380 horses from a 4.6 liter as oppose to the benz 5.5 liter 382 horses.
It just goes to show that the Benz was trying to take shortcuts.

Hey MarkUSuck Lexus in the US is selling based on its product features and reputation - as opposed to Mercedes, BMW and Audi which are all doing incredibly cheap lease deals to support their market share.

Lexus is pushing the RX with a cheap lease, but Audi is the pushing the A3, A4, A4 convertible, A6; BMW is pushing the 3 series, 5 series, X3 and its horrible little convertible, while Mercedes is pushing the R, ML, C, CLK and E classes [see the Winter Sales Event].

If Lexus matched the lease deals that the Germans are offering, then Lexus sales would go through the roof!

I expect a Lexus recall or refund for that joke self-parking whatchumacallit.

Somebody stop the madness!

Once you strip the AWD from Audi what's left,just a Volkswagon,the style is even too close to tell them apart,one example is the Audi A8 and the Volkswagon Phaeton!!!

Actually that is far from the truth. Maybe a little research would be in order for you to prove that bold but inaccurate statement. If you take out quattro, The vehicles will still stand on their own quite nicely.

Um, without quattro they would be front wheel drive as the other non-quattro Audis are.

Sorry Agent009, but your open display of ignorance is casting a nasty shadow on the title of "agent" here at autospies.com.

Your are entitled to your opinion my friend, however last time I looked about 80% of all Audi outside the US are sold as non-quattro. This means they are indeed standing up to the test of sales.

Audi has so much more going for it than Quattro. Racing/motorsport success, diesel engine development, interiors, global respect, etc.

Take away the "quality" and what is really left? Just another advanced car (no more advanced than the competition).

Agent 009 rarely does sufficient research before posting comments. Audi sales in the US are shockingly low, the marketplace is voting and its not voting for Audi.

That's funny because the marketplace "votes" internationally (where Lexus has ZERO image) show otherwise--Lexus is a loser. Namely in Europe. Get off the superiority trip.

two things faulty about the "lexus fails INTERNATIONALLY" argument.

1) lexus has only recently entered markets other than u.s. (u.s.) lexus models were even sold as toyotas in japan until recently.

2) unlike the german big III, lexus is not a "full line" brand. there are NO cheap, entry level lexuses.

now, when you adjust for both the above, and combine lexus with TOYOTA (which fully equals or BETTERS anyone on Quality), together they outsell EVERYONE except gm on the whole planet. and it won't be long before they pass gm too.

I agree US sales are low, But I tend to look at the global picture which is far different.

VAG in general has done a poor job marketing in the US. Something the Japanese have excelled at.

Mercbasher- Audi sales in the US are the best in it's history. So I think 009 is right on this one.

That is why I am happy agent 001 is back! he is more neutral than 009!

He tends to balance us all out...That is why he is 001...

no offence 009!

none taken.

Okay, this has gotten totally out of control. Of course the Toyota boys couldn't take the heat so they resorted to personal attacks.

The new LS is NOT being as well received as initially hoped for, and the "innovations" it brought are also coming under scrutiny--a difficult to operate self-park feature, and "the world's first 8 speed transmission".

The point of this article was to discuss that Lexus IS coming under scrutiny, and a number of consumers are looking elsewhere because Lexus is just not delivering. You believe the marketing hype, you'd think the IS and GS are sporty, yet you go and drive one and it quickly becomes apparent that was nothing but good advertising.

Now, Audi on the other hand, doesn't do this, yet they consistently deliver products which live up to customer expectations, in terms of driving dynamics, fit and finish, and overall experience.

Audi performs, Lexus talks. End of discussion.

Sales in the US don't support your personal impressions of the marketplace. However I am amazed that Lexus sales are up this year when Audi, BMW and Mercedes have had incredible lease deals.

But sales internationally certainly do, a place where Lexus consistently fails. Lexus may be experiencing international growth, but so is Audi, at an astounding rate.

Lexus just hasn't had the setbacks Audi has in America, so it's simply an unfair comparison.

Lexus never had much appeal in my book.

What's so great about them, anyway?

I don't care about value/reliability blah blah... if I'm buying a $90-100K car in a few years, I'd like the Lexus fans to convince me why it should come from their brand.

LF-A

I can't wait for the Lexus LF-A proverbial shoe to drop on everyone's head. When this sports coupe hits the market it will silence a lot of you Lexus performance nay sayers.

No it won't. Lexus and Toyota lately have proved that they can't create anything that's actually enjoyable to drive--that ended with the Supra.

Sorry but soft steering, couch-like suspension settings, and horrendous brakes (a hallmark of nearly every Lexus) does not equate sportiness.

Three reasons why there are a lot of existing customers parked at the Lexus dealership:
(i.) Lexus in the US has a higher customer retention rate than Mercedes, BMW and Audi
(ii.) Lexus has a lot of new models, and existing customers are interested in going for a test drive, for example the ES350, LS460, GS350 and the IS250/IS350 is gaining momentum
(iii.) Lexus is doing a lot of advertising at the moment, for example the "December to Remember Campaign" and individual campaigns for the ES and LS

"By the way, the IS is extremely sporty, and so is the GS."

Oh, puhleez! Get your thinking cap on!

And why would I care about how Lexus delivers on everybody ELSE'S expectations, when they don't deliver on MINE alone?!? I don't care about stats- I want to drive a car that I like! Not a car that everybody else likes! Lexus is for followers!

Most of the people that buy a Lexus are not into driving like a BMW, MB or Audi driver are. Lexus drivers need self-parking for cyrin' out loud!

Do you know which other company has self-parking technology in an existing production model - its VW/Audi in Europe. So cut out the crap EL34

MercBasher, I always check out who is driving cars and most of the time people that drive a Lexus are not really into driving, but need a badge to stay aheade of Joneses.

Matter of fact, I'm jonesing for the MB S550 with the AMG package.

We don't NEED anything. Audi makes fabulous cars. Did it ever occur to you that we're NOT badge whores?

VW tested self-parking 15 years ago. Lexus just took the idea, and ran with it.

hmm funny you say this audiman. where i live, all i see at my lexus dealership is audis beemers and mb's.

on which planet do you live where audis outsell lexus?

and i thought there was a sort of audi-lexus rivalry in bashing mb and bmw... (we both have understated elegance and fine interiors)

...way to kill that

"on which planet do you live where audis outsell lexus?"

Earth. Audi outsells Lexus by about 3 to 1.

Why are Lexus owners so shortsighted? AUDI GLOBAL SALES TRUMP LEXUS SIGNIFICANTLY.

Go to Europe and say Lexus. Lexus who? That's how irrelevant the brand there.

Actually due to the large amount of Lexus on the road. It mathmatically is feasable to see a large amount of Lexus trade ins at any luxury dealership. It is a simple numbers game. The same thing goes for Aston Martins. There will be a low number of them on the lots due to the rarity.

*correction-- audi-lexus ALLIANCE

It really does amaze me how many people consider themselves to be very keen at judging a car company against another.

I really don't understand how someone could really come out and put their biased views like this. And this is coming from someone within the Audi camp, and the rest of the camp came along for the ride; for once it wasn't the BMW guys (and gals).

Save these never ending points of view for the water cooler people. We'll be right back here in a week with someone else shooting off their mouth about one company or another.

Lexus is a strong company backed up from Toyota and they will continue to be a strong company and build and innovate their products to compete with everyone else.

Deal with it.

Ok kids, you need to shut up. Especially with these comm ents:

LEXUS CAN EXTRACT 380-HP FROM A 4.6 WHILE MB NEEDS A 5.5 TO GET 388-HP.

This proves absolutely nothing. Mercedes engines have usually had bigger displacements for torque and low-hp per liter figures which affect engine life positively (less wear and tear). I'm sick of these frankly dumbass claims.

Those of you who claim such BS obviously know nothing about cars.

And give me a break, the S-Class doesn't need parking cameras. Heck, Lexus is brilliant with their marketing, telling people that they need this because it will make their life easier. That may be so, but in my 35 years of driving, I have never needed such a system when parking inbetween two cars. Also, the S-Class doesn't come as well-equipped as the LS because MB sells this car in other markets where people don't want or need those gizmos. True, the S-Class should be better equipped for the US, but then again, there's always the folks who buy the car but don't need this and that. Those guys will be happy their S-Class doesn't have this feature and that they didn't need to pay extra for it in the price.

I'm done here. Every Lexus thread turns to bullshit on Autospies.

BMW530i,
I was just reading your post. Sounds a little heated and really ridiculous. Posting my comments and then responding to it with 5th grade thinking.

"LEXUS CAN EXTRACT 380-HP FROM A 4.6 WHILE MB NEEDS A 5.5 TO GET 388-HP.

This proves absolutely nothing. Mercedes engines have usually had bigger displacements for torque and low-hp per liter figures which affect engine life positively (less wear and tear). I'm sick of these frankly dumbass claims."

--Proves nothing? WTF, are you blind, you can't read? What part of 4.6 to 5.5 can't you understand? Your horsepower to liter ratio doesn't justify anything when both cars does the 0-60 in about 5.4 seconds. Positively affects the engine? Yeah, last I heard the Lexus engine didn't have any problems with theirs either. Same concept applies to the steering radius.

You claim all that gizmos and gadgets might not be needed by everybody. Then explain this to me. How does one pay 80-100k for a car? For four wheels and an engine? The last I checked, a luxury car is suppose to go beyond the normal car standard. You claim you don't need any parking assistance...so, what if it just came with the car for the hell of it. Its there for luxury etiquette, it doesn't have to have a real purpose, when you pay big bucks, you kinda have to expect things you don't normally find for a car that cost 25k.
Lastly, and this has to be the dumbest statement you typed in that post.
"the S-Class should be better equipped for the US, but then again, there's always the folks who buy the car but don't need this and that. Those guys will be happy their S-Class doesn't have this feature and that they didn't need to pay extra for it in the price.

So they didn't pay extra for it? Umm..I thought the S550 started with a base price of 82K without those options. The LS460 just comes with it like it suppose to. After all, a luxury car is suppose to be a luxury car with nothing spared. BTW - How's the nightvision on the SClass? Yeah, useless feature like the parking feature on the Lexus, right?

Right.

@SSP350

Proves nothing? WTF, are you blind, you can't read? What part of 4.6 to 5.5 can't you understand? Your horsepower to liter ratio doesn't justify anything when both cars does the 0-60 in about 5.4 seconds. Positively affects the engine?
===============================================

Exactly, PROVES NOTHING. Why Lexus chose a 4.6-l is beyond me, but kudos to them for getting 380-hp out of it. I was following the development of the MB 5.5-l V8 and the reason for the higher displacement is for torque and engine longlivity benefits. HP/Liter in this case proves nothing, because if Mercedes' wanted to, they could get 700-hp+ out of the same engine. Also, keep in mind that an engine with bigger displacement needs to rev less higher to make more power and torque, again, positive for engine life and fuel economy. HP/Liter isn't everything, and in this case, it proves nothing. Oh, and the Lexus LS did 0-60 in 6.2 seconds according to Car and Driver. The Benz needed 5.6 seconds.


You claim all that gizmos and gadgets might not be needed by everybody. Then explain this to me. How does one pay 80-100k for a car? For four wheels and an engine? The last I checked, a luxury car is suppose to go beyond the normal car standard. You claim you don't need any parking assistance...so, what if it just came with the car for the hell of it. Its there for luxury etiquette, it doesn't have to have a real purpose, when you pay big bucks, you kinda have to expect things you don't normally find for a car that cost 25k.
===============================================

What's the point of having extra gizmos in the car when you'll never need them? I'll glady pay extra for some crap I need. All those extra gizmos in the LS do one thing: add weight, and that means poorer fuel economy.



Lastly, and this has to be the dumbest statement you typed in that post.
"the S-Class should be better equipped for the US, but then again, there's always the folks who buy the car but don't need this and that. Those guys will be happy their S-Class doesn't have this feature and that they didn't need to pay extra for it in the price.
==============================================

Dumb? Buddy, that's how they think in Europe. I've been over there for many years so I've gotten to know the European psyche. Most buyers in Europe, even with luxury cars, don't want electric seats, don't want this and that etc. Europeans just want the basic stuff for their car. I'm an American, but I prefer the European mentality when it comes to this stuff. My E39 530i is basically a stripper, because I didn't want all that other garbage BMW offered. I applaud Lexus for offering this stuff as standard, but I don't need it.

*sigh* BMW530i,
Let me quote you on more thing.

"What's the point of having extra gizmos in the car when you'll never need them? I'll glady pay extra for some crap I need. All those extra gizmos in the LS do one thing: add weight, and that means poorer fuel economy."

-- Ok, maybe you should check your facts before you respond, because if you don't, it just leads me to believe you're just bias against Lexus. So you've been driving for 35 years? In that case, you just sound like a grumpy old guy whose stoic, old fashion thinking, whose mind can't wander beyong the German engineering and if it ain't German it can't be all that great philosophy.
Aside from that, all that extra gizmos in the LS still amounts to a weight that's about 200lbs less than the S550 and with better fuel economy, you might want to look that up, since I can safely assume you won't beliieve me.
Regardless, I'm not trying to dumb down the MBz. I'm just pointing out the "Why isn't it standard" factor. Which will also lead me to say, if I can remember correctly. If BMW is a luxury car, why do they offer things like fake leather? Shouldn't that factor be a given that they should all come with leather. Little things like heated steering wheel, on certain German cars, is listed as an option. Again, why is it an option? It should just come with the car. They should all be incline to rethink the term 'luxury'. Since they're solely luxury makes. So if you're buying a stripped down BMW or MBz, then buddy, you just paid too much for your car, but I guess you like the 'magic feel' and will probably pay for that factor.
Cheers!

Look it up yourself. The LS stopping distance is further than the Q7.

So much for alleged "Lexus safety".

two things faulty about the "lexus fails INTERNATIONALLY" argument.

1) lexus has only recently entered markets other than u.s. lexus models were sold as toyotas even in japan until recently.

2) unlike the german big III, lexus is not a "full line" brand. there are NO cheap, entry level lexuses.

now, when you adjust for both the above, and combine lexus with TOYOTA (which fully equals or BETTERS anyone on Quality), together they outsell EVERYONE on the whole planet except gm. and it won't be long before they pass gm too.

toyota has models in japan they don't export, like the V12 Century sedan. were they to market some of THESE models, toyota by itself could be pitted against ANY manufacturer, with or without the lexus brand.

and it would simply STOMP audi.

The Q7 received five stars from the NHTSA, not sure where you got your "facts".

Along with the A4 and A6, Audi makes some of the safest cars on the road.

Sometimes I wonder if us autospies posters are more passionate about these cars than the heads of the companies making them.

I think it is time to end this debate though. Autospies.com has the money and they need to something. Get a new A8, LS, and S Class. Do not race them. Do not measure their performance. Do not give thought to reliability/build quality. Just put the three of them in a demolition derby and see what happens.

Imagine the video footage, photo galleries you could have. Please Autospies.com, do this for the sake of our sanity!

I am new to this, but I am amazed about the lack of research people do before responding to comments and the substitution of opinion for facts on this site! It looks like everyone is a victim to the media on this site regarding recalls. Toyota/Lexus has had fewer than a handful of government mandated recalls in their entire U.S. sales history! Toyota/Lexus voluntarily recalls the vehicles back if a parcticular number of vehicles exhibit a concern. This percentage is much lower than the 5% U.S. Government mandated recall that so many other companies were required to file this year with their customers. Comparing recalls is comparing apples to oranges, in favor of the companies who are reactive. If you don't believe me, call your favorite car company's 800# and ask about the recall process. If you call Toyota or Lexus, you will get the same information about their proactive policies, which less than a handful of companies have.

If you are a German auto enthusiast, you might have even gone to Germany to see your car being made! If you have, you would know that Lexus sells very few cars there and in Asia. The reason for this is that Lexus was just launched in the past few years in Europe and Asia, not because Germans think the Lexus quality or design is subpar (although they might)! Since when has anyone in America relied on the German opinion in purchasing their car or anything for that matter? If the German peoples' opinions on any product are superior, why haven't lederhosen and polka music become more popular? I am not insulting the Germans, but merely pointing out to many of you that what matters most in vehicle superiority are the votes you make with your wallet, not the opinions of others. The fact that Lexus was the highest selling luxury brand in the US last year shows that they deserve some respect, just as BMW or Mercedes deserved in the high flying 80s, when big tri-star emblems, gold Rolex's and Flock of Flock of Seagulls music world the world.

I love this idea - maybe we could start donations (say $5 per posting in December) to fund this.

While I do agree with your assessment that Lexus does deserve recognition for capturing America, I disagree that it was nothing more than--1. The right timing, 2. A gullable customer base susceptible to clever marketing, and 3. Products priced lower the competition.

The three factors, coupled with an alleged quality advantage made it an easier purchasing choice for Americans. I doubt you'd have seen the same pheonemenon in Europe. This is still evident today--few Lexus owners know the first bit of information about their cars, let alone that Lexus is a subsidiary of Toyota and made in Japan.

*make that last line "ruled the world."

Just face the fact that Lexus = low class, American luxury. Afterall this is the only place they really sell and are considered competition.

Lexus has so desperately tried to break through, but they will always be "the little Japanese company that could(n't").

Are you from Europe, Audiman4? My guess is that either you are based on the unfounded arrogance of this comment or that you know very little about American marketing and demographic research. If you are from America and do know the demographic research conducted in America, you would know that people who are brand loyal to any brand are actually less educated than those who shop around, and typically make less money, too. If your opinion of Lexus is low class luxury, than Lexus isn't the greatest car company and failed at something....convincing you that their car is superior to the competition. However, to say that they are "low class" because they only sell in high volumes in America lacks any correlation to the fact that they have been winning many of the automobile awards, have the highest sales in the U.S. luxury market, and still remain wildly profitable. I don't think Lexus minds that you think they are low class - they had over 300,000 US customers with lots of disposable income purchase their American luxury cars (made in Japan) last year! I am sure Audi needs you much more on their cheerleading bench.

"Lexus = low class, American luxury"


as opposed to all the "high class" audis that are re-badged volkswagens!?? LLLOOOLLLL!

even the vaunted A8 is based on the VW phaeton, the biggest marketing flop of the century (so far)

SO Alex, what about this?

Taking a Toyota Landcruiser / Toyota Harrier and selling it as an expensive Lexus LX / RX.

This any bette? Chassis sharing is ok, everyone does it. At least, Audi doesn't sell cars that look like VW's. Your RX and LX and ES look like run-of-the-mill Toyota's...

the difference is, even "run of the mill toyotas" are ALSO superior in build quality and reliability to ANY brand on the planet, save lexus.

toyota had NO qualms about badging lexus ls400s and ls430s as TOYOTAs in japan, prior to using the lexus name in japan.

the german big3 don't export their entry level models to the u.s., for fear of "brand dilution."
toyota wisely side-stepped that issue by introducing the lexus brand to SUPPLEMENT the already highly regarded (but not highly respected due to many 'economy models') toyota nameplate.

mb has tried to copy this strategy with the introduction of the Maybach line. which may or may not work; it's just TOO upmarket.

there is NOTHING to be modest about, having a toyota. lexus is a whole NEW level.

I've read every word of every post here, and I am convinced from the intelligent comments that Lexus is losing its appeal. Agent 009 said it well. Reliability is a selling point for the paranoid mind. And we are seeing, paranoid minds think alike. Unfortunately, not enough to make Lexus a brand to covet with those who know better.

Yeah, all those people at Boeing that endeavor to make their jetliners safe and dependable are just paranoid too.

And when Audi slapped on a spoiler to the butt of the TT to make it "safer" at high speeds they were...you guessed it, paranoid too.

Mercedes research team must be made up of real frady-cats, they created that whole "pre-safe" system didn't they? What a bunch of worry-warts.

You're confusing safety innovations, which every major brand covers superbly, with day-to-day driveability concerns, which Lexus drivers are hyper-worried about.

You are confused. I cannot help you.

So you are saying the desire to get from point A to point B consistantly makes one paranoid?

Lexus is losing its appeal with people who waited to see its next-generation cars. Those cars, the redesigned GS, IS and LS, are lacking in key areas.

To the uninitiated and worried set, Lexus will always be the solution to A/B transportation problems. For those who know cars better, Lexus potential has not been realized--because Toyota is a conservative company that wants 100% of the market, instead of being something specific to someone.

Sorry if you fail to get that logic!

Arguably there is not a car sold in the US that will typically have an issue that will leave it on the side of the road any time soon.

The problem is in the surveys themselves. Somewhere along the way reliability and other issues have been purposely mixed. JD Power considers a cup holder not retracting as a potential reliability issue. They make no difference between what we all would consider a true reliability issue such as a transmission failure and the mundane such as the cup holder.

So if you want to believe the hype that a top scoring Lexus is 5 times as reliable as a bottom scoring Land Rover, then you can spend the money on the Lexus and assume a fetal position in the corner of the room. For the rest of us it is a mute point, we know we will get from point A to Point B all of the time without any drama..

I support any car that is not made by American Union workers and that includes Lexus, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz.

I do not support American Union made cars.

I am with EL34 , all these over paid lazy union workers
made tons of $$$$ just by clocking in and out are overrated !!!!

The reasons I dislike Unions is because I have and my family have had problems with them attacking us when they strike.

Once my Uncle had just bought a brand new Cadillac Deville and he crossed a Union picket line at a little gourmet grocery store and instead of telling him not to shop there they slashed all 4 of his tires.

And there's many more stories to tell, but I have to go eat now, but I refuse to support them and the prducts they make.

The salesperson you spoke to is an idiot, and you use this to falsly identify a national trend? I realize that most people in this forum despise Lexus, and I (to your satisfaction I am sure) will most likely take my leave of this negative envirnment once and for all, but rest assured, Lexus is strong and getting stronger, and very deservedly so. They are an astoundingly good corporation who does nearly everything right for nearly everyone concerned, including their employees (who are the most satisfied in the business unlike the cesspool which is Audi/BMW/Mercedes and who have consistantly the most unsatisfied dealers as per JD powers and all of whom I have worked for) to the consumer who they coddle and care for like they were one of their children, to the envirnment which they are truly trying to sustain. I am sick of the haters here and no, Lexus is not losing their appeal.I realize the cars are not made for the enthusiast, but really- stop the negative BS against this brand.

Mitch, calm down dude. There has been a lot of Toyota megalomania around here as of late. Whenever one brand tries to take over this site, it's met with resistance. (BMW was the last attempted coup). Rest assured that people don't hate you or your brand, from what I see. You of all people should realize, when you're #1--and that stat has been touted around here more than once--people are going to challenge you.

Dude, anti-Toyota is stripping this site of the Toyota fanboy comments that run 1 1/2 screens long, all caps, filled with grammatical errors, belligerent comments that are incorrect or just plain dumb. But we know that doesn't happen. Anti-Toyota is refusing to post Toyota material--like, "Spies told you the ES350 would be a hot seller!!" But that came from 001 himself.

Don't you think screaming anti-Toyota bias on a pro-Toyota site (which has run Lexus banner ads for months) is a bit ridiculous? Your Lexus doesn't get the respect you believe it deserves, but that's not from a lack of information or support from Autospies.

Pish posh.

Will- In all honesty they post Anti Audi, BMW, and Merc articles too. The TT test by Clarkson is no worse than LS460 one that 009 posted from TTAC.

The problem really is, when you are on top of the sales game like Lexus then you get rocks tossed your way. It simply is part of being number one, it would be the same if Jaguar was on top. (Notice I didn’t mention the Germans)

For all manner of speaking you Lexus guys are fighting two battles here:

1. The battle for sales: You probably will win that one, because Lexus is a mass market company, selling successfully their marquee to all comers in most markets.

2. The battle for respect: Being a solid reliable car will put you at the top of the game in mass marketing venues. However, you are on exclusive turf with the same song and dance Toyota successfully markets to the masses. The same strength (sales) you wield also alienates you from those wanting to set themselves apart. Setting yourself apart is a major deal in that market place. You will get the masses but not necessarily the respect that exclusiveness gives. That is why you are having a tough time in Europe and Japan.

You can build the best of the best, but some people are looking for something else.

To use an analogy: Timex may sell 500 times more watches than Rolex, and their watches may be 500 times more accurate than a Rolex...but who cares? Money no object, what would you rather have? It takes more than mere quality to build a brand. How many engineers at Lexus believe that driving should be fun, above all else? NONE.

Clearly people that want to know the correct time would care.

You can say that build quality matters not in the automotive world, but the ability to endure the passing of time is important. The pyramids of Egypt are but one example.

Clearly people that want to know the correct time would care.

You can say that build quality matters not in the automotive world, but the ability to endure the passing of time is important. The pyramids of Egypt are but one example.

Excellent analysis. Every day on my way home from work, I see at least 20-25 BMW 3-Series clogging the roads, their engines blazing. It's a real problem here in SoCal. There are so many BMW engine fires--every day--on the roads here, it's a national emergency. And you can't pull off to the side of the road, because there are 50-100 BMW's parked with their hazards on!

You must be from here in L.A. because you have hit on the #1 life issue we deal with. BMW engine fires.

Tool.

audiot, i KNOW you were being sarcastic, but the image you drew up is NOT so fantastic.

the 'sporty' pontiac fiero was also prone to engine fires. so much so, that it was calculated that IF ALL those fieros were on the new jersey turnpike at the same time...

you'd see one BURNING EVERY 1/4 mile, and people running around like crazy!

just hypothetical, but a HILARIOUS IMAGE to picture in one's head.

most of the fires were from pistons exiting and PUNCHING HOLES in the engines on their way out, spewing hot oil all over the engine bays. so they COULD've been "dogging" thru traffic like you said.

I didn't know Lexus was appealing to begin with...no one I know drives a Lexus. All of my colleagues at the hospital drive German brands.

I saw a silver LS 460 today on Culver Dr. in Irvine, Ca and it's really only OK lookin', but I was very impressed with the looks when I test drove a white LS 460L, and I think I still like the look of the Mercedes S550 more.

"I've heard so many Lexus owners tell me, "driving a Lexus simply is not exclusive anymore", and I'd have to agree with that assessment."


this is just the same as "owning a Rolex is not exclusive anymore."

no doubt, having the BEST quality will make a brand very popular. and there will always be the OVERLY status conscious for whom, once too many OTHER people also choose the best, will have the brand diminished in THEIR OWN snooty, uppity vision.

poor little rich snobs.

Is Lexus losing its appeal? What inspired this question? A consistent and statistically relevant decline in sales and/or market share? Nope. Boredom, perhaps, on the part of the writer?

I have grown weary of posting that seem to be written for the sole purpose of gratification on the part of the writer, in seeing his stuff appear on a web page.

I'm also a happy Audi driver but that is not why I am turned off by Lexus. I recently saw the new LS460 which has a driver's seat that is cloned from the Mercedes S-class seat. Lexus installs this seat with a completely independent seat cushion length adjustment only on the driver's side while both S-class front seats have this highly desirable feature. This makes it look like Lexus is short-changing its customers and I would therefore be embarrased to drive one.

I'm also a happy Audi driver but that is not why I am turned off by Lexus. I recently saw the new LS460 which has a driver's seat that is cloned from the Mercedes S-class seat. Lexus installs this seat with a completely independent seat cushion length adjustment only on the driver's side while both S-class front seats have this highly desirable feature. This makes it look like Lexus is short-changing its customers and I would therefore be embarrased to drive one.

What's with all the hype about Lexus? Besides relaibility that's all they have going for them. The other day I saw a Mercedes S class parked next to a LS in Beverly Hills and sorry folks, the Lexus lacks presence. For years they been copying the Germans and they still can't pull it off. As Robert Cumberford said.."Japanese luxury designers lack the courage to venture out in their own." I totally agree. The LS essentially is a stretched limo of the Camary. Look at the styling cues. And all this automated parking assistance hype..I'd be ashamed to drive a car that suggests that I can not park the car myself. Just goes to show people who can't drive buy Lexuses...

actually, now it can be bragged by toyota owners that their cars ARE JUST LIKE lexuses!

a previous generation ES was actually designed FIRST. then the camry version was made.

so the camrys of that generation, were TRULY rebadged (and slightly de-contented) LEXUSes. so is it ANY wonder camrys have been the runaway success they are?

whether or not the order of design is true for the '07s has little relevance today. BOTH are leaders in their respective price class.

toyota has far more models sold in japan, than what they offer here. they are as much a FULL LINE maker as mercedes, with an even WIDER range of products, if you include Hino commercial vehicles and the Scions.

they offer a V12 limo called the Century, which is more comparable to Rolls-Royce than even the S-class.

so whether the label says "Lexus" OR "Toyota," the truly knowledgeable know that the products are the BEST in the world.

superior to even MB in engineering and reliability. RR too, for that matter, which prior to the bmw takeover, had ONLY warmed-over PUSHROD gm V8 engines.

Lexus is a solid car, however they dont have the it factor, at least not for me. The ES 350 is already looking like a beater around town, and i have several friends who have endless problems and they are at the dealer constantly - trans, blue tooth, seats, etc..

The car lacks any type of passion, and its the opposite of tough. Unless your a relyability freak they have nothing to separate them from the other Japanese sedans. Big three blew it so bad that cars like this are top sellers.. what fools.

poor little rich snobs.