Porsche's Master Plan: Position VW to Challenge Toyota?

BRRRRR!!! I feel it getting colder down here!

Will...

Just stop arguing with them. You know the only reason why there are so many haters is because they are just jealous of the success that Toyota/Lexus has been having.

I loved the title, the next in the series could be "Starbucks to be positioned to compete with WalMart."

Just ridiculous!

I loved the title, the next in the series could be "Starbucks to be positioned to compete with WalMart."

Just ridiculous!

see, these euro fanboys are so totally OUT OF TOUCH with reality, they're incapable of SEEING straight.

and/or THINK straight.

it is the Euro, NOT the Yen, that is overinflated.

it will be really FUNNY, when a VW with equivalent quality and reliability to a yaris will have to sell for $22,000+ in the u.s.

and i can just see $35,000 jettas (after adjustments to current E/$ rates) trying to compete with $25,000 camrys of SUPERIOR QUALITY.

good luck, VW! you're going to NEED a LOT of it.

And a good master plan it is. If Porsche manages to insert a bit of that "there is no subtitute" in VW. They very well may have a winner on their hands.

In order for VW to take over Toyota several things must happen. For the sake of brevity I will not go over the business case. But in all honesty, it would be very difficult for them to achieve.

Impossible to achieve is more like it. Tototas are the number 1 preferred cars in ASIA.

They have lemon laws for that sort of thing...

Whats the point of the lemon law if the damage has already been done to the consumer? The lemon law would just be something to fall back on and make the manufacturer replace or pepay you for your troubles. In the first place, as a consumer, you would want to have some thing reliable. Some car you buy and just keep driving it and nothing breaks down. Guess which car has that reputation.

Agent 009 is so out of touch. In most states it is almost impossible to meet the requirements of the lemon law no matter how bad the vehicle. I know in Texas I had a new MB SL500 in which the AC failed multiple times in two years but to apply the lemon law the AC had to fail twice in year one and twice in year two - but mine was once in year one and then multiple times in year two. Gosh I hated that car and hence was born the name "MercBasher"

When Volkswagon stops building their cars in MEXICO, maybe their serious quality issues will decrease. Volkswagon used to be among the best in quality, but recent outsourcing to Mexico to save money has bit them in the butt. (Audi doesn't suffer the same quality problem because they are all built in Germany.)
Most people who I know that purchased recent Volkswagons have had nothing but problems with them. There is a local Volkswagon dealership near me with a BMW dealer next door. The salesperson for BMW came over from Volkswagon because she said Volkswagon just had too many reliability problems.
Toyota on the hand, builds NO cars for the US market in Mexico for obvious reasons. All Toyotas are built with careful quality control in either Japan, the US, or Canada.
If Volkswagon want to challenge Toyota, they have ways to go to reclaim the position they had back in the 1980's.

Actually, I think Some Toyota Tacoma trucks sold in the US are made in Mexico.

Ah..Hmmm...let me wonder why VW is targeting Toyota, one simple answer, Toyota/Lexus are the best manufactured in the world. Especially, in reality, quality and bang for your $$$.

You know how it goes "To be the Best" you Got to Beat the Best". That what VW pretty much say here, VW want to proof to the world that they are the best that why they want to beat Toyota/Lexus. Which it "Won't" happen anytime soon. Look at the dawn VW Jetta, a cheap imitation of the Toyota Corrolla. Heck everyone is coming Toyota/Lexus, heck.. I would too, If I was in the car business;).

You guys/girls on this website don't get it don't you? The owner of Toyota/Lexus love their brand and would never trade in for anything else. They might trade it in for another Japanese brand but not VW for sure.

Lexus

You are absolutely, 100% right. People who know quality and dependability (mostly Japanese buyers) know to stay away from VW. And the majority of people out there own a Japanese car and most likely know to stay away from VW. That is why their little plan won't work.

Best of luck to VW. If Honda can't beat Toyota, they certainly can't come close.

This should be interesting. When Porsche wants something, it gets it.

What will be more interesting is whether or not Porsche can save VW's reliability- AKA, demolish its Mexican plant and move the manufacturing for American-bound VWs back to Europe; or at the least, the US. That strategy has worked well for the Asian manufacturers.

Unlike Toyota, VW has the potential to be much more than a one-trick pony. If Porsche succeeds in its quest, VW could not only be reliable, but it could be the manufacturer of stylish, sporty, semi-luxurious, reliable, affordable every-day cars. I had VW Rabbit myself- a very, very long time ago. It was built like a tank and was very reliable. Too bad the Mexican plant has ruined VW's reputation for durability.

The German made VW's have the same number of problems as the Mexican ones.

"If Porsche succeeds in its quest, VW could not only be reliable, but it could be the manufacturer of stylish, sporty, semi-luxurious, reliable, affordable every-day cars."

IF, IF Porsche succeeds, which it won't, VW will never, I repeat NEVER be as good as a Toyota.

uzj-

No, they actually don't. Europeans consider VW to have very good reliability- SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY'RE EUROPEAN BUILT. The place of manufacture makes all the difference. Not the place, the employees.

lexusis350, things change. Look at GM- it was on top of the world. Now they've lost it all.

And, because Toyota sells better, it's a better car? No, it's not. A lot of people do want a boring commuter car with no styling and no frills- for that, there's Toyota. But for people wanting something that can not only be a great commuter car, but looks good and goes very well, there's VW. I actually consider VW to be a class above Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc, because their cars command premiums for a reason. They have impeccable engineering and interiors, if spiffed up a bit, that would almost be good enough for an Audi.

A long time ago, presumably before you were alive, VW was one of the best-selling brands in the world. It still is, but the magical car I'm speaking of is the Beetle. It seems as if its spiritual successor is the Golf/Rabbit, which sells tremendously well on its own. The New Beetle, however, is embarrassing to say the least. The Camry, Toyota's bread-and-butter in the US, does not inspire nearly the same fun-factor, value, or cutsie-ness that the Beetle did. The Beetle was designed by Ferry Porsche himself. If Porsche could start the VW brand from scratch, they can certainly revive it.

I think the first new model to really make a splash will be the new Scirroco. Perhaps they'll make spin-offs of that and start a selling craze.

S4-
The thing you will never get through your tiny little brain is this: Volskwagens, as well as anything Volkswagen is associated with (yes Bentley, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, etc.), are not good cars. They might be more exciting to some people, but when it boils down do it, people want reliability, not problems. Volkswagen fails in that area. They always have, and as far as I'm concerned, always will. And yes, GM was on top of the world, but can you see where they went wrong? They only made good trucks and SUVs, not cars. Trucks basically only sell in North America, their SUVs didn't sell very well anywhere, and their cars aren't interesting or very nice. Toyota sells internationally every vehicle (except the Tundra and Tacoma) and they have success with it, something GM didn't have. Toyota will be here for a long time, get used to it.

"The thing you will never get through your tiny little brain is this: Volskwagens, as well as anything Volkswagen is associated with (yes Bentley, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, etc.), are not good cars. They might be more exciting to some people, but when it boils down do it, people want reliability, not problems."

You have no idea how sick and tired I am of hearing this. As well as anyone else.

American VWs are not reliable cars, for sure. I've never owned a Mexican-built model, but I haven't heard good things.

However, STOP PUTTING THE OTHER BRANDS WITH THEM. Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley- how do you know they have bad reliability? You simply assume! Porsche is above average in reliability- I believe it's the most reliable exotic manufacturer! Who knows how reliable the Veyron is? I haven't had a single problem with my Audis- and I believe five of them are highly recommended by CR! Bentley? I have no idea, but I'm sure they do fine. Lamborghini drivers live for the drama that bad reliability and a coarse ride gives them. If they wanted an easy rider with good reliability, they should've gotten a 911 Turbo. Lambos are quirky, and though Audi may have toned down the issues a bit, it's part of their soul.

You make me sick, you Toyota fans.

its weird, here, vw is quite high quality, and not too unreliable. it got worse recently (lots of electrics) but it can get better. i didn't know the mexican vws were so bad.

In the US, VW is routinely at the bottom of the reliability leagues along with Land Rover. The difference with Europe may be due to the tendency of US buyers tend to buy higher spec'd vehicles [AC, sunroof, electronically controlled seats, larger engines, etc. etc. ] and VWs have trouble with electronics.

Toyotas are easier to repair aside from the fact that it takes a long time before anything gets broken under normal use. Specially the Pick ups and SUVs. Here in the Philippines, ten year old toyotas are dirt cheap to maintain. Every corner repair shop can fix those Toyotas. As for European cars, you have to bring it to the dealer and they need diagnostics to fix and reset those faults and irritating warning lights on the dash. VWs are good cars but the expensive parts, difficulty to fix, unpopularity (compared to Toyota), more expensive selling price, and overall reliability are too far to compare to Toyotas in the coming years. So VW, in order to beat Toyota would be like climbing Mt. Everest ten times or more in the next 15 to 20 years.

Ricemaster-you need to post a link to that info.

The comment below is an outright lie unfortunatly... post 964 model (1994-5), before they started to produce the 993, Porsche hired Toyota to help re-organize their factories and integrate a "just in time" parts system. Toyota did do an outstanding job in terms of structuring the factories to be faster and more productive, unfortunatly at the cost of much of the hand built feel and exclusivity. AT NO TIME DID TOYOTA OR ANY OTHER JAPANESE (don't use the derogitory term "jap" like the poster below) INVEST IN PORSCHE. They were hired as consultants and nothing more.
They certainly NEVER managed Porsche in any way shape or form!
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"BTW.....You never hear Porsche having reliability issues while all other German or euro makers have issues. Why is that? Porsche had Japnese management!! That's right y'all. It might come as a huge surprise and be very hard for some folks here to believe their German Icons would be managed by a Jap comapny, but it's true. Many years ago(pre Porsche SUV time), Porsche was on the verge on bankruptcy, they had poor quality due to poor wasteful management/run down plants and old manufacturing techniques and only 1 model to sell. A Japanese company injected much needed cash and clean house, they made Porsche redo everything. Now Porsche is the most profitable of all automakers!!!"

My uncle use to have a VW Rabbits back in the 80's. My dad and my uncle use to praise how good the VW Rabbit was. They would talk about how great is handle and how quick it was. Then when my uncle got married he need a family car so he brought a 1989 Toyota Camry. Stick with that car for 12 years and then as years past by the Camry was getting old he need a new car. So he decided to go back to VW and finally brought a 2002 VW Jetta. For 5 whole months he got problems with his Jetta. He thought VW was good as they were when he first brought his VW Rabbits. He later traded his 2002 VW Jetta for a 2001 Toyota Camry. He has the Toyota for 3 years now and he has not encounter a problems yet.

VW/Porsche is not the one who know how to make a sporty family car. Look the at the new and just release Toyota Camry SE with 268 hp. It goes faster than the Audi Audi with 255 hp and the BMW 330i with 255 hp from 0-60. This is a fact proven by one of those auto magazine, forgot which one. The 2007 design are very sporty for a family sedan, and European version is even sportier.

Most of you German car fan here never really give credit that Toyota/Lexus deserve. Anything with Toyota/Lexus or Japanese label you say inferior. That just to show how bias you're are. Japan make cars that is just as good, rival or even better than German car for sure.

Heck I bet if we put a BMW, MB or Audi emblem on a Jackass/Donkey! you would says it can do 0-60 in 4.0 second or less. Read my above comment why Porsche/VW is targeting Toyota/Lexus.

Lexus

Ever heard of the Volkswagen Passat V6; 280 hp and 265 lb-ft of torque. 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, 1/4 mile in 14.3 seconds @ 101 mph.

BTW, the Camry is not faster than the BMW 330i.

btw, there was a discussion somewhere about replacing thermostats.

an easy, 10 minute job on MOST cars.

with a V6 vw, it was a half-day job! requiring taking the engine 1/2 apart to just access the damn thing. then blindly working it out.

no wonder people in the philippines LOVE toyotas. and SNEER at that "great, unbeatable german engineering." ;)

No, offend to anyone here, isn't the Bettle a chic car? that what I thought. Comapare the VW to the Camry SE, Accord, and Nissan SE, the Bettle is chic car. Do you want to seem by your friends that you're driving a Bettle, hell no....

I thought VW mean people wagon back in Europe? VW is a good brand but not as good as Toyota. Were talking between VW and Toyota, not Audi or Lexus. Even Audi having a hard time keeping up with the Lexus IS350. I bet ya Audi will add more hp to it new A4 to catch the IS350.

Ah....ha...ha...ha...ha...ha...

Lexus

"VW is a good brand..."

That is where you are wrong. VW is not a good brand. My sister had a Jetta and it broke down constantly, I'm not even talking about things like the sparkplugs stopped working, I'm talking about the engine, for some reason, just stopped. Just stopped without warning. And it never worked again. Well, let's just say that car is now a recycled pop can or something.

wish you folks would get your facts straight.
VW makes more money in a month than GM makes in a good year (although its been a few since they made money).
But Toyota makes the most money. Why? they let the Europeans develop the technology.

The US is a hard market for VW as the Dollar and Euro exchange rate really hurts the bottomline.

i will concede you this point.

but shitty quality, poor reliability isSTILL no excuse.

Something ironic is that Audi is approaching VW's sales in the US. They currently selling over half of what VW sells per month- which not only makes Audi look good, but makes VW look bad. Audi sold 9K cars this month, VW sold 17K.

If, in their massive product push, Audi reaches VW's sales levels and/or surpasses them, it would just be hilarious.

All VW needs to do like any other car company is to build cars as reliable as Toyota does because the bread and butter of Toyota is the Corolla and 4cyl. Camry.

You don't think people that buy Toyota's are into sports cars do ya?

of course! many of us are.

we LOVE machines like the MR2 and the Celica. but toyota just happened to be a little TOO smart for its own good.

we can get the SAME hot engine in the corolla and the matrix. so we can get STEALTHY sporty cars, DISGUISED as a sedan or wagon.

with MORE practicality. for less money. (which can also be used to make sneakier/hotter Q-SHIPS!)

Duhhh!!!!! Read the history books guys!

Most of you forget, that Porsche and Toyota had a manufacturing technology partnership in the 90's.

Porsche is quite aware of the advances made by Toyota and the inherent strengths and weakness of the approach. By using the knowledge learned and applying it successfully to VW, Toyota might indeed have a formidable opponent.

After all Porsche is the most profitable maker for good reason.

sure, in another decade or so! ;)

it merely took toyota 20 years to develop and perfect their production system.

others can COPY it, but they still won't get all the nuances down overnite. it's been estimated it may take others up to 10 years to refine the system in their own plants.

huu76, you realize that Porsche makes the most profit, PER VEHICLE. Toyota may be richer- but if Porshce even sold half the amount of cars Toyota did, they'd have far deeper pockets [than Toyota], assuming they had the same profit margins they do now.

Dream on

S4 you better start counting your sheep then LOL.

Wow, both of you are simply ignoring the facts!

Sounds like something Will would say.

And, by the way, how can you not LOVE Porsche?

Who cares if they're German?

How about a reality check: a posting based on FACTS!
(this will be a new concept for many of you...)
If you ignore SUVs and pickups and minivans (in other words, look at part of the US market, plus ALL of the rest of the world market), then Toyota is the #1 manufacturer, and VW is #2 (note: Toyota includes Lexus, as the cars called Lexus in the US are sold as Toyota everywhere else, and VW include Audi)

BUT UNTIL RECENTLY, VW WAS #1 AND TOYOTA WAS #2.

For all you arm-chair BS-artists: here is the site for automotive production statistics: http://www.oica.net/

If you look at Passenger car production, you'll see that Japan builds more cars than Germany, but Germany builds more than the US (but not more than NAFTA: US/Can/Mex).
And North American plus the 2 million from South America match Japanese production.

Again, looking at passenger cars (because light-trucks in these stats include delivery-vans, postal vehicles, etc.) the most recent stats are 2005:

TOYOTA: 6,157,038 (includes Lexus)
VW: 4,979,487 (includes Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti, ...)
GM: 4,526,312 (includes Cadillac)
FORD: 3,514,496 (includes Lincoln, but not Volvo, Jag...)
HONDA: 3,324,282
Peugot: 2,982,690 (includes Citroen)
Daimler/Chrysler:
1,965,410 (includes Jeep)

So kids, get used to the fact that "the big 3" are Toyota, VW and GM.
And in terms of cash, those 3 companies fit into the same order!

Also, unlike Toyota, VW designs almost everything it builds, such as Twin-cam heads (whereas Toyota's "Corolla GTS-16" used heads from Yamaha ... even now that they "make" TC heads, I don't believe that they have the technology to design them).

VW builds its own diesel engines (arguably more challenging than gas engines). Who do the other car makers use?
Nissan uses Nissan engines.
Volvo used 6-cyl. VW engines
Toyota trucks (Land Cruiser 3.5L 4-cyl) use Hino engines built by Toyota.
Toyota cars (Versa in Europe) used VW engines

Toyota is smart ... they don't spend R&D money when they can buy other company's technology (as a fall-back to copying German engineering). And they're not too shy to copy other company's designs ... like that new Lexus Phaeton (I think they call it 460H?)
And the LS460 from the side is the front half of an Audi mated to the back-half of a BMW ... what's with that?
Surely they have enough money to hire their own designers?

Weaving through your twisting and crunching of numbers I only could make out this:

"And the LS460 from the side is the front half of an Audi mated to the back-half of a BMW..."

And just like that you lost all credibility. :(

precisely.

aside from the fact that designers often start from similar ideas and final products sometimes look similar just BY COINCIDENCE, sheet metal similarities have NO relationship to the engineering underneath.

in any case, what is the basis for ignoring trucks and vans? those are popular thruout the world. (suvs may be a primarily american fad)

add back trucks and vans, and toyota outsells everybody by EVEN BIGGER figures. look at videos and newsclips. toyota trucks are amongst the most popular vehicles in 3rd world countries.