DETROIT AUTO SHOW: New Lexus F-Car to topple next BMW M3's supremacy? New details..

let the games begin!

Indeed.

I think if Lexus is actually focusing on performance, they may have a chance to be a true performer in this field. Resources aren't a problem for them. If anything, it will just help the rivals to offer more performance without a huge increase in price for the next generation. Should be interesting none the less.

Now if they can do something about the every-day look.

Not that the new Bimmers look that good, but at least they 3s look more manly than IS.

What?!? The 3-Series design sucks next to the IS.

We will wait and see what it brings to the table. Judging by previous Lexuses it won't bring much in performance. But Iwill give them the benifit of the doubt until I see some performance tests.

AGREE!!

It better have a 6 SPEED MANUAL if it even thinks of competing....that's what's hurting the C Class the most!

The handling of AMG's is underrated. On a daily drive from A to B or on the track, the handling qualities of your typical AMG car are very good.

When you compare it to a BMW M product however, things change. AMG doesn't build cars for the purist driver, BMW M does. Both appeal to different target groups.

I bet "if" the IS-F out performs the M3 in acceleration and handling,you guy would still bash Lexus!!!
You guys say that Lexus does not have any racing heritage,then what about the Rolex Series,I always see the Lexus killing the BMWs in that series.
plus the engine will be tuned by Yamaha and they have tons of racing heritage(Note:Toyota owns part of Yamaha so that does not make the engine out sourced)!!This car will have good stopping power with the big Brembo brakes,and it will have a modified version of the LS 8 speed trans.I sure hope it comes with some nice BBS wheels!!!

You guys say that Lexus does not have any racing heritage,then what about the Rolex Series,I always see the Lexus killing the BMWs in that series.


Laughing out loud. You call that "racing heritage"? Don't even begin to compare Lexus' "racing heritage" to the racing heritage of Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Bentley, Porsche, Maserati, Alfa Romeo etc.

The truth is, Lexus has no racing heritage. Participation in this Rolex Series means nothing for Lexus. Racing heritage is built up through motorsport success, innovation etc. Read a book about the racing heritage of the European brands, then come back and say you're sorry for even claiming Lexus has a "racing heritage". They don't.

You right, but couldn't they have picked a better symbole or name than F**king "F"?

This is very interesting UNLESS BMW goes with the V10 engine in the M3 then the cars won't be competitors anymore.

BMW won't produce a car that has a lower series number that is faster than a model above it (ie. the M6 is faster than the M5 which is faster than the M3) besides the CSL, so i cant see BMW putting the V10 in the 3.

yeah, no.

bmw has become the pinnacle of automotive performance within the m3 segment. do you really think they are going to roll over and play dead just because some company that made fortune and fame by copying the old designs of it's competitors is coming out to challenge them?

i don't think so.

i have no doubt at all the the is-f will be an amazing car. it will definitely be something to behold once it comes out; but, if a rookie wants to play ball with an all-star pro, then the rookie is bound to get schooled. needless to say, the rookie has a few tricks it can show the pro in return.

I think their first attempt will be a very good one. You see the difference with Lexus and German automakers is that they just don't reproduce vehicles if they don't it will change the market one way or another. Granted, they've tried and fail numerous times. Now, the M3 and RS4 were exclusive vehicles in their own right, but that's because there was really nothing else to compare it to. Of course, the IS-F will be a contender regardless, its a performance division, right? If its not, then whats the M Series from BMW and S from Audi is?
How good the car will be is really up to personal preference. Knowing Lexus, they're geared more toward luxury than anything else because thats what Luxury line is, regardless if its just the entry level luxury.

I would like to see them try.

I seem to recall that back in 1989, people were saying that Lexus would not be a true challenger to the established marques when Lexus first appeared. I remember when all the magazines and reviewers were floored to see that Toyota had produced an automobile that had set new standars for the segment. For people to say that this will never happen with the M3 is the exact same thing that people said back in 1989. I guess that history does have a tendecy to repeat itself.

The Germans (Benz) were the one making these claims.

i agree 1995e34

I think sexylexusdude finally got banned. All of his comments have been deleted.

This is quite different, you must realize.

Lexus has always stood out as a no-hassle, LUXURY brand.

Toyota's magic wand will not simply create a perfect performance sedan.

In all sincerety, it takes a lot more precision (and practice) to create a perfect performance sedan than it does to take a perfect luxury sedan. Ask BMW, ask Audi. The RS4 and M3/M5 took years to perfect.

I must add- the A8L took only one generation to perfect!

Toyota does have a well deserved reputation of trying until they get it right. They’ve been deservedly laughed at during nearly every market entrance they’ve made (T100 anyone?), and have since quelled the critics just about every time... (who’s building their truck manufacturing in Texas now?)

However, they have yet to quell the laughter among the high-performance customers. It will no doubt compete with 0-60 and 60-0 numbers; but there’s more to it than that. ..

The transmission: I hear rumors it will use the 8-speed from the LS. I hope they don’t repeat their single most catastrophic mistake from the 350 by doing this. The “Performance car = Manual Control” equation has baffled even the brightest executives at Toyota to this day who can’t get their head around the fact that some people like driving; and even enjoy bringing their cars to the brink of sideways insanity. 8 speeds is too many gears to control manually… the availability of an “old school” 6-speed manual may be the single most make or break decision for this car.

At the limits: The current IS ride is best described as “compliant.” It listens well, but doesn’t laugh at you and ask “is that all you got?!” when you reach the limits like the German competition does.

Seats: Thigh support, bolstering adjustments?

The senses: With 400HP and 60K price tag, I’m not looking for sound-deadening sun visors… I don’t’ want anything deadening. I want road feel, engine rumble and the putrid yet satisfying smell of molten rubber.

I think the time has finally come for Lexus to say "F that" to the M3 always staying in that number 1 spot.

This should be really nice!

Serioulsy how do you know. Lexus might very easily lay down a goose egg with its IS-F. How do you know? Lexus has no history of sporty vehicles. Absolutely none, zip, zero nada. Just like you Lexus fanboys (and Toyota) assume that some cars are unreliable because of some history, EVERYONE can assume that Lexus can't build a sporty vehicle because of their HISTORY. Treat others like you want to be treated. And I do have proof, take a look at the braking distances of the LS 460 and GS 450h, attrocious. Now, of course Lexus could have a very sporting vehicle with the IS-F, but so far they haven't shown anything in their history that they can build a sporty vehicle.

wow, okay.

(1) what does the m3 have that the lexus doesn't

heritage. bmw's m division knows what it's doing. it doesnt have to go and start from scratch.

(2) m3 is overrated, as are "ALL" german cars? have you driven an m3? please explain why german cars are overrated. pretty please?

(3) they had more time to develop it because they DEVELOPED it. now as for lexus doing it in a shorter amount of time: how long do you think it takes to take a developed product, slightly alter it, and add a dash of blandliness? yeah. it's like that.

i don't mean to be condescending. I am looking forward to the is-f; i think it will be a great vehicle. but please dont go and try to defame others before the product is in the market and proves itself.

Show me proof. Oh wait, you can't. NO ONE has ever tested the IS-F yet. Before it is tested, you can't pretend that it will handle, accelerate, and brake excellently. The Audi RS4 and BMW M3 and MB C 55 AMG class have all been tested and their performance measured. I am just saying that you folks are running ahead of the train, as like a player guaraneeing that his team will win the championship even before the season has started or even before he knows who his teammates are.

quiet v8 performance engine.



the biggest oxymoron ever.
I DON'T WANT A QUIET ENGINE IN A PERFORAMANCE CAR!

have mercedes ever offered quality? yes. for 30 years mercedes benz made THE BEST CARS IN THE WORLD.
lexus should not aim this car at the m3 or rs4, but the c55/63. that is its true competetion.

reliability reliability reliability.

just ask around in this forum how many people that own german cars are actually displeased with them? they ARE reliable. maybe that's why we see so many old european cars on the road still?

mr lexus1s250, i'll quote from jd power, your bible.
lexus has on average 100-110 issues per 100 cars. bmw has 140-150.
smoking at the side of the road? i think that is what you've been doing.
btw you've turned this post into a flame war where everyone is against you.

LexusIS250-
They're calling you sexy lexus because there was a guy, who I think has been banned, who would get on this site and drive everyone crazy. So, what they're saying is you're just like him.

I've wondered that myself.

they'll all get speeding tickets

Oh, I totally agree.

Except for me it's the S4.

It has that unbelievable V8 sound that none can duplicate, the silky six-speed transmission, the beautiful feeling when you go all-out on the highway, the ability to have the wind-in-your-hair-at-130mph-experience. The car is everything I've always wanted in it, and for half the price of a comparable machine. It's indescribable, the connection between man and his performance car.

This comment was a reply to MDalle.

How did it get here? I clicked the reply button!

I guess it will have close to 450HP/400+lb.ft, and weight around 3600lb.

BMW is great in this segment. It's even the best with it's M. They've a huge experience on this kind of cars!
LEXUS has to realy work on it's F to be competive with the M of BMW. Knowing that LEXUS is quiet challeng oriented, i would realy like to see and try this car! It will be also in Geneva auto show in march!

Just let the game start!

reliable does not equal best.
and best in class> last time i checked only the IS was. gs, rx, sc and ls are not.

i'll say again:
mr lexus1s250, i'll quote from jd power, your bible.
lexus has on average 100-110 issues per 100 cars. bmw has 140-150. so bmw has .5 of an issue more per car than lexus. wow.

and i'll say again too:
my german "unreliable" cars have NEVER FAILED to get me from A-B.

Rupert, the IS isnt' the best in its class.

Where did you get that conclusion?

If he wants to discuss sales only, then the 3 Series, A4 and C-Class are all better- in that order.

I'll bet 50 Quid the New Lexus F-Car brakes are not as good as the M3's nor the RS4's.

But I know, the Lexus will come with the Mark Levinson CD player.

<<They both will handle well and be top in their class. >>
First of all, neither car is out so it is impossible to tell. Judging from the base sedans the 3-series most has the edge handline-wise, something you can't deny.

<<But the M3 will very likely not be as reliable as the Lexus, so that means the Lexus is the true winner in this class.>>

I disagree. In this league, performance and styling win sales, not being slightly more reliable. Not to mention the fact that BMW has free 4 year 50,000 mile maintnance which Lexus does not.

<<I think the M3 is overrated, like all German cars.>>

The new M3 is not out, so it cannot be rated or overrated.

<<Lexus has been around for around 20 years and look how much they achieved.>>

Yeah, your right. A sedan (LS460) which takes over 200 feet to stop from 70mph, pretty unimpressive. The case is hardly closed.

It's not so much the strength of the Lexus marketing department as it is a testament to the inability for the German brands to create an equally reliable vehicle.

me too! i've never had less than 1 german car in the household and they've never let me down. only car that has broken down at the side of the road was a saab, and that was just a stuck thermostat so the engine overheated.

If the Lexus F-car can lay down a 0-60 in 4.3 sec and handle like a pure racing machine; then yes it may have a chance. Otherwise, the Lexus F-car will not topple BMW M3's supremacy.

Or the current Audi RS4's that really holds the top position right now.

<<Buddy, the Lexus will be the best. Every standard Lexus is already the best in class.>>

Keep telling yourself this. If this was the case Lexus would sell more IS's then BMW sells 3-series; which obviously isn't the case.

Yup....
BMW sold over 10K 3 series and even Audi was #2 with over 5,500 A4s. Lexus was last with barely more than 3,500 IS sold..not good for a car in its second year.
Looks like the "new car" thing has worn off.

Oh look....LexusIS250 is SexyLexusDude with the same lame comments.
This car goes against everything Lexus stands for...Soft, quiet, plush...
i don't think many of the current Lexus owners will be buying this car. But that Lexus IS-F will not be able to compete well for the simple reason that...it won't have a 6 Speed Manual. You can't get BMW and Audi enthusiasts into this car without a Manual.
The RS4 has place the bar way high in this category. It will be a great car no doubt, but don't think it will dethrone the kings (M3 and RS4).

No way is Lexus ever going to be able to beat an M3, ever! Dream on! Next someone is going to say something even more ridiculous like that they're going to challenge Porsche or Ferrari. Ha. Lexus should stick to what it does best, extremely reliable grandpa-movers.

fun to drive?
i disagree...as does everybody else in the entire world.

and as for saying you're not a fanboy, you're about 50 posts too late.
you're not even trying to have a discussion, you're just laying down statements like "lexus is the best", "lexus will take down all german brands" and don't actually give any reasons. and then "lexus will take on porsche ion the future and win because they're so reliable and fun to drive". that is the biggest fanboy statement i've ever read.
a) you are making stuff up - we have no idea whether lexus will compete with porsche
b) we don't know who good it will be
c) lexi are not fun to drive, and do not handle as well as the bmw or audi counterpart
d) realiability has nothing to do with sports cars.
this is lexus' FIRST performance car EVER. i don't think it will beat the m3 or rs4. i don't think it will handle very well. this car goes completely against lexus' core philosophy.
seriously, listen to yourself, then decide whether you're a fanboy. you're more biased than amazing bimmer!

yes lexus is reliable.
that is your only truth.
your doing the opposite of goebbels PR laws - you're doing 90% lie, 10% truth!

No need to bring that up, last time someone mentioned WW2 here the discussion went completely off topic. Just some facts, Japan was with Germany in WW2 and lost. And the German sure did just about take over half the world before they lost. But there is no need to even mention that as it has no relevance to production cars today.

Mr Lexus IS250,

It is amazing that Germany held out for so long against the material and manpower might of the United States and the USSR and their allies. Germany's major military allies in Europe were of no use to her. Italy, Romania, Slovakia and Hungary all had poorly trained and outdated armies. It was the Germany Army which kept up the fight and they fought skillfully. The average German soldier and commander was a capable fighting machine.

In the words of Bryan Mark Riggs: "The German Army may have been outnumbered, but it was never outclassed."


Japan on the other hand...

They borrowed, bought and relied heavily on German technological aid. Germany shipped over some FW-190 fighter planes via submarine for technical evaluation, they shipped over the blueprints for the Messerschmidt ME-163B Rocket Fighter (and even shipped over a sample aircraft), they shipped over blueprints for the 30mm MK-108 aircraft cannon etc. etc. etc. Japan had some advanced technology during World War II, but the Germans were simply far more advanced and ahead of the Japanese.

Your bogus claims here are full of shit, excuse the language. You want to talk modern history? Then you talk to me, because I am a history professor (part time nowadays) and I know my history.

Instead of trolling on this site, read a book and learn something.

mr "history professor," how do you explain the ignominous defeat of the brits by the (far OUTNUMBERED) japanese in the malaya-singapore campaign?

yes, the germans were great fighters. and so were the japanese, with far less material resources.

it was largely just thru HUGE resource advantages that the allies won wwII.

LexusIS250 is a collection of straight angles drawn by children with their plastic rulers and the BMW 3 Series is sculpted out of a single block of aircraft grade aluminum by master craftsmen.

I don't know about that. I would take the IS over the 3 series any day based on design. In fact I would rate the IS as the best designed car in its class currently.

<<In fact I would rate the IS as the best designed car in its class currently.>>

Based on what, exactly?

Based on my own observations. The Audi A4 is nice of course, but you can see that it is a bit old in a few places. The redesign was very nice though. And the RS4 is still the best designed sports sedan. But I would have to give the Lexus IS an edge over the current A4, the next gen A4 I am sure will looks very excellent, but we will have to wait to see how it will look like. The C class is out of production, it looks old. The BMW 3 series is ok, but has nothing special. The tail lights are extra weak IMO. See Lexus fans, I don't hate Lexus, it just the fact that we HAVE to wait to see what the IS-F brings to the table before we proclaim it as best.

The IS Series has the worst lookin' tail lights of almost any car on the road.

I mean, were they the last thing the designers thought about?

Where is the inspiration for those tail lights???

anime?

You know what? The more I think about it I really hope this ISF pales in comparison to the new M3. I hope it brakes in long distances, has a 5 sec. plus 0-60 time, and handles like a Camry.

The more I read these posts it seems quite obvious that were the ISF beat out the new M3, some of you here would have a psychotic breakdown.

Put the Lexus IS-F next to the amazing Sexy Alfa Romeo Competizione 8C and you will notice how Corolla like the IS really is!

Put an M3 next to an Aston Martin to get a smiliar feelinlg.

The crime is how much Lexus is charging for the IS/Corolla wedge on wheels and the M3 is not as exotic as an Aston, but it's not comparable to any cheap car.

MDalle, the next time you see a BMW 6 Series check out the small bumps on the tail lights, they're there to reduce drag as the car is flying down the highway in fine form.

DB9 for me, plaese.

not bashing; defending.

don't attack our camp, we won't set fire on yours.

THe reason there are so many Lexus "haters" is because of people like you.
I like Lexus, but it's people like you that gives the brand a bad name.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!

The Lexus GS has a LOWER initial quality rating than the Audi A6 AND the BMW 5 series!
hahahahahhahahahahahahah oh i'm laughing.

Rupe, where did you read that?

I will enjoy reading that comparison test.

see for yourself.
EVERYONE GO TO THIS ADDRESS:
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/car-comparison/compare.aspx

put in the gs, a6 and 5 series and you'll see the GS has the lower rating use 2006 models though, they don't have proper data for 2007 models.

Yes, Rupert just compared the 2006 A6 Quattro 4.2 Tiptronic versus the Lexus GS430 and the A6 has a higher reliability rating. Take that Lexus fans, take that and eat it.

it's true for the 300AWD, 3.2 and 530i as well.
and the SC has the same as the 650 and sl500.
and the 750 has the same as the LS460.

Chalk one up for the good guys at Audi!

it's not BS, it's the truth.

yeah, who cares about 90-day reports.

how do the cars hold up after 90 MONTHS? the german brands are ALL inferior to corollas in this respect!

When you can't afford a BMW you buy a Lexus because after all we know Lexus has an uphill battle with BMW when it comes to design.

To all The BMW haters around the globe, you don't stand a chance So get down to the BMW dealer and get acquainted with what quality automobiles are all about.

And don't forget to stop in the Audi and Mercedes dealers too!!

The 335i completely outclasses the Lexus IS350. And I've also read the reports that the 335i makes more than "306-horsepower". The power ratings on this car are underrated.

People know what a quality automobile is and that's why they keep coming back to German cars.

It's all about the term, "Made In Germany".

"People know what a quality automobile is and that's why they keep coming back to German cars."



Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! You're funny. Completely wrong, though.

Mr Lexus IS350, Renlex and Mr Lexus IS250,

You're WRONG.

Germany produces high-quality automobiles. They might currently not be as reliable as some Japanese makes, but they are still high-quality products. Quality and reliability are two different things.

Stop acting like silly kids and grow up.

That's true. German's do make quality cars. They're slacking a bit in the reliability area, though. Don't get me wrong, they're 800 times better than a Kia or a Hyundai, but not quite as reliable as a Honda or Toyota.

The good thing about the IS-F is that the German fanboys won't have anything else to say bad about Lexus. Up until now, the main argument over the IS is, "it isn't fast enough to keep up with the Germans." Well, now it's fast enough. But, the question now is, will it have a manual transmission? Nonetheless, I think this car will be a hit.

How do you know if it is fast or quick enough. It hasn't been tested, as far as I know, Lexus will overestimate the acceleration as it has on the latest models. I am looking forward to a Car and Driver, Road and Track or Motor Trend full instrumented test before I will agree that the IS-F is a true competitor. Before that, plese don't gloat because th IS-F HASN'T PROVEN ANYTHING YET.

Please, it will have 400 hp. It WILL be fast. I don't have to read a review to know that.

Based on previous Lexus', they weren't as fast as competition either. Like 10 years ago, BMW and Mercedes were both faster than Lexus. Now, Lexus is faster than both of them. I wouldn't underestimate Lexus here. I bet they've done their homework and will have a good handling, fast vehicle that will compete with the RS/M/AMG and compete well.

yup. in less time than anyone thinks, the last line of defense the german fanboys will have against the lexus onslaught will be "but it doesn't have a manual option."

big deal.

how many new ferraris have clutches these days?

99% of the people that buy Toyota or Nissan trucks put bling bling wheels on them to simple drive around and be annoying.

People that need trucks for work and beat the hell out of them on a daily basis buy American trucks and will continue to and besides, no consrtuction worker would dare drive up to work with that goofy lookin' Tundra or Nissan.

the current tundra has ALREADY been rated higher than the domestic 2.5 trucks by some reviewers.

the '07 will just EXTEND the lead.

but the tundra WILL NOT outsell them for a few years as there's 1) not enuff production capacity and 2) not enuff time for loyal owner base to build up yet.

but the superior qualities of the tundra WILL become wider known as recognition trickles down. i LIVE in truck country. dominated by 2.5 now.

tundra owners i personally know are the better educated, higher income, professionals.

toyota itself is hoping to capture supervisors and foremen first. average joes later.

tundra IS after all, The Lexus of pickup truckdom.

LexusIS250,

Please stop beating the reliability drum - we all know that Lexus has figured it out and you've spent this argument like its going out of style. Most people who are looking for performance - via M3 - have reliability at #4 or 5 on their list behind power, handling, torque, and safety.

I have two BMW's a 1997 740iL and a 2003 Z4 - I bought them both new and have never had one problem. The 740 currently has 175,000 + miles and the Z4 has better than 60,000. I will never buy anything else other than BMW based on their reliability and plan on putting in an order for a new M3.

BTW, Given your lovefest with Consumer Reports - you should know that they have "Recomended" ratings on 4 BMW models (3,5,6, and the Z4) compared to Lexus' 5 (GX,GS,IS,GX and RX). No One deny's BMW has had some issues with a few model years, but I have yet to see any problems in my stable.

I anticipate the M3 will be 10 times the car any IS-F could ever hope to be. Just wait until Car & Driver and MotorTrend put these two against each other (You may want to start stocking up on Kleenex now)

LexusIS250,

Please stop beating the reliability drum - we all know that Lexus has figured it out and you've spent this argument like its going out of style. Most people who are looking for performance - via M3 - have reliability at #4 or 5 on their list behind power, handling, torque, and safety.

I have two BMW's a 1997 740iL and a 2003 Z4 - I bought them both new and have never had one problem. The 740 currently has 175,000 + miles and the Z4 has better than 60,000. I will never buy anything else other than BMW based on their reliability and plan on putting in an order for a new M3.

BTW, Given your lovefest with Consumer Reports - you should know that they have "Recomended" ratings on 4 BMW models (3,5,6, and the Z4) compared to Lexus' 5 (GX,GS,IS,GX and RX). No One deny's BMW has had some issues with a few model years, but I have yet to see any problems in my stable.

I anticipate the M3 will be 10 times the car any IS-F could ever hope to be. Just wait until Car & Driver and MotorTrend put these two against each other (You may want to start stocking up on Kleenex now)

LexusIS250,

Please stop beating the reliability drum - we all know that Lexus has figured it out and you've spent this argument like its going out of style. Most people who are looking for performance - via M3 - have reliability at #4 or 5 on their list behind power, handling, torque, and safety.

I have two BMW's a 1997 740iL and a 2003 Z4 - I bought them both new and have never had one problem. The 740 currently has 175,000 + miles and the Z4 has better than 60,000. I will never buy anything else other than BMW based on their reliability and plan on putting in an order for a new M3.

BTW, Given your lovefest with Consumer Reports - you should know that they have "Recomended" ratings on 4 BMW models (3,5,6, and the Z4) compared to Lexus' 5 (GX,GS,IS,GX and RX). No One deny's BMW has had some issues with a few model years, but I have yet to see any problems in my stable.

I anticipate the M3 will be 10 times the car any IS-F could ever hope to be. Just wait until Car & Driver and MotorTrend put these two against each other (You may want to start stocking up on Kleenex now)

LexusIS250,

Please stop beating the reliability drum - we all know that Lexus has figured it out and you've spent this argument like its going out of style. Most people who are looking for performance - via M3 - have reliability at #4 or 5 on their list behind power, handling, torque, and safety.

I have two BMW's a 1997 740iL and a 2003 Z4 - I bought them both new and have never had one problem. The 740 currently has 175,000 + miles and the Z4 has better than 60,000. I will never buy anything else other than BMW based on their reliability and plan on putting in an order for a new M3.

BTW, Given your lovefest with Consumer Reports - you should know that they have "Recomended" ratings on 4 BMW models (3,5,6, and the Z4) compared to Lexus' 5 (GX,GS,IS,GX and RX). No One deny's BMW has had some issues with a few model years, but I have yet to see any problems in my stable.

I anticipate the M3 will be 10 times the car any IS-F could ever hope to be. Just wait until Car & Driver and MotorTrend put these two against each other (You may want to start stocking up on Kleenex now)

LexusIS250,

Please stop beating the reliability drum - we all know that Lexus has figured it out and you've spent this argument like its going out of style. Most people who are looking for performance - via M3 - have reliability at #4 or 5 on their list behind power, handling, torque, and safety.

I have two BMW's a 1997 740iL and a 2003 Z4 - I bought them both new and have never had one problem. The 740 currently has 175,000 + miles and the Z4 has better than 60,000. I will never buy anything else other than BMW based on their reliability and plan on putting in an order for a new M3.

BTW, Given your lovefest with Consumer Reports - you should know that they have "Recomended" ratings on 4 BMW models (3,5,6, and the Z4) compared to Lexus' 5 (GX,GS,IS,GX and RX). No One deny's BMW has had some issues with a few model years, but I have yet to see any problems in my stable.

I anticipate the M3 will be 10 times the car any IS-F could ever hope to be. Just wait until Car & Driver and MotorTrend put these two against each other (You may want to start stocking up on Kleenex now)

LexusIS250,

Please stop beating the reliability drum - we all know that Lexus has figured it out and you've spent this argument like its going out of style. Most people who are looking for performance - via M3 - have reliability at #4 or 5 on their list behind power, handling, torque, and safety.

I have two BMW's a 1997 740iL and a 2003 Z4 - I bought them both new and have never had one problem. The 740 currently has 175,000 + miles and the Z4 has better than 60,000. I will never buy anything else other than BMW based on their reliability and plan on putting in an order for a new M3.

BTW, Given your lovefest with Consumer Reports - you should know that they have "Recomended" ratings on 4 BMW models (3,5,6, and the Z4) compared to Lexus' 5 (GX,GS,IS,GX and RX). No One deny's BMW has had some issues with a few model years, but I have yet to see any problems in my stable.

I anticipate the M3 will be 10 times the car any IS-F could ever hope to be. Just wait until Car & Driver and MotorTrend put these two against each other (You may want to start stocking up on Kleenex now)

sextuple post? is that a record? the site is a bit slow today though

I completely agree. You seem like a welcome addition to our website.

I had leased a 2000 Audi A6 2.7T quattro, and gave it back in 2005 with over 80,000 miles.

The only problem I had with it was the headlight washer caps coming off at high speeds on the highway. It happened twice- neither time was in rainy weather. I didn't care at all.

In 2002 I bought my son a 1998 A4 1.8T quattro. We had an oil leak. That doesn't really count as a problem at all. We gave that up in December 2005- it was eight years old (model year '98, but came out in 1997).

I replaced the A6 with my current S4 Cabriolet in April 2005. I have about 22,000 miles on it, and haven't had a single problem. Love the car.

I also replaced the A4 with an '06 A3 2.0T DSG, as my winter car. It has about 9K miles on it and hasn't had any problems. It's almost as fun as the S4- but in a very different way.

Just my own observations. It doesn't seem like many German car fans have had serious problems with their cars on this site.

the lexus fan post are so ignorant i don't they they deserve a response. No sense of history, no depth just like the lexus products. The Lexus fan post like Lexusis250 are the type of talk your hear from soccer moms at Baby showers.

the lexus fan post are so ignorant i don't they they deserve a response. No sense of history, no depth just like the lexus products. The Lexus fan post like Lexusis250 are the type of talk your hear from soccer moms at Baby showers.

No sense of history, no depth just like the lexus products. The Lexus fan post like Lexusis250 are the type of talk your hear from soccer moms at Baby showers.

PREDICTION:

1. BMW M3.

2. The rest.

After reading all the idiotic posts from the idiots RENLEX and LEXUSIS250, I have come to the conclusion that 99% of Autospies Toyota/Lexus fans are total retards with nothing better to do than bash German or American cars (etc.) and praise "perfect Toyota/Lexus".

Seriously, can't you guys just shut up and appreciate what makes European cars special? European cars are rich in history and heritage, innovation and design. Put on paper, the Europeans dominated and still dominate the car business. The Japanese contribution has been in the production and cost process. They pioneered the low-cost/high-quality car building process as well as production band and organizational efficiency. Add to that Toyota's JIT and Kaizen philosophy.

All this anti-Euro / German flaming and pro-Japan stance is bordering on racism and retardedness, seriously. Both these countries make excellent cars and it all comes down to personal choice, finances and location. When I was working in the Philippines, I could have easily driven a German car, but since they were perceived as luxury vehicles in that country, I opted for a simple Mitsubishi Lancer because I didn't want to upset the locals. "Social Jealousy" is a phenomenon prevalent among some of the worlds poorer cultures.

Oh, I think RENLEX and LEXUSIS250 are the same people by the way.

You make good points, but you must know that there are a lot of anti-Lexus people doing the same ranting here.

There is a uneven equation here at autospies where defending Lexus is seen as a negative, but defending German brands is OK.

Typical flow of things:

Pro-Lexus story

People saying how the Germans do it better

Defensive Lexus postings

Anti-Lexus postings

etc., etc....

I am not excusing morons who trash the German brands when vaunting the Lexus name, but I sure don't think it's fair to give a free pass to those bashing Lexus while boosting their brand.

Autospies, like the rest of the world, is better off with both Lexus and the German makes in the marketplace. People that don't see that are idiots.

Let's all try not to let those said idiots ruin this place.

I agree, Answer.

A Lexus thread always turns into a bashfest here.

So does an Audi, BMW or MB thread.

There are simply so many trolls on this board that have nothing better to do but bash German or Japanese marques.

Can't we all respect each other? I might not be the biggest Lexus fan, but I give props to them for all that they've done. However, when a Lexus fanboy is out of line and I correct him, I get ganged up on by his buddies because they cannot admit that their brand has faults etc.

Either way, enough posting for now. I need to run out and do some Christmas shopping for the family. See you folks later.

jmr2480-

I wanna know what you smoking dude because road and track or even car and drivers ain't close to a real car magazine. They just a bunch garbage edit from high school students. I look at Top Gear Magazine before i look at those kind of garbages.

Renlex,

Japanese cars have a lot of heritage, but it is in no way comparable to the heritage of the European brands. Even a biased fanboy like you should be able to admit that, because every automotive history book will tell you the same thing I posted in my post above you.

The Japanese car industry started out with imitations (aka "copies")of European and American cars (the latter which was especially popular during the 1960s-1980s). It was only in the mid 1980s that they started developing their own style.

I like Japanese cars myself, owned a couple of them in the past including various Toyota's.

TW, what does the F stand for again?...could it be, Funny?

That's it, the Lexus Funny.

And I told you I like the LS460, but that's the only Lexus I like.

BMW says the new M3 will out-perform the M5...The M3 will probably out-perform the M6 in everything but acceleration, as it is a true sport car & not a high-performance GT like the M6.

So most of the Lexus sales are for that barge the ES/Camry?

Those people would'nt know how to drive a BMW.

renlex495,

You have to put your sales figures into perspective. Lexus/Toyota cars are much cheaper than BMW's so naturally they would sell more (not discounting percieved relaibility of Toyota relative to price for the avg. Joe) at least in America.

If BMW marketed a 318 diesel in the American market, they wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand (hell i'd pass up a camry as a day-to-day "commuter" car for that), but the truth of the matter is that BMW would be simultaneously sacrificing their reputation as a premium label (reason Toyota has seperate brand for their luxury segment) and no one would buy the same looking car for twice as much - via 335 - Just like people won't pay $44,000 for a souped up Camry unless it has an "L" on the front (ES).

Sales are irrelevent, when comparing Lexus to BMW. Drive a BMW and then drive a Lexus. If you can't tell the black vs. white difference, then you'll never get it.

P.S. Not sure how my previous post got loaded 6 times, but sorry for clogging up the pipeline.

jmr2480,

Take a Xanax......

Are you inferring that Toyota's/Lexus perform and handle better than BMW's? - If so, may God help you in your quest (you've got alot of work to do)

BMW's are superior in not only handling and performance, but also in the quality of materials used when compared to Toyota. If you sit in a BMW (nevermind drive one), it's quite apparent.

I assume that in your world "real car enthusiasts" consist of teenage twits who wasted money on their honda/toyota by adding on a worthless body-kit and a coffee-can muffler that sounds like a perpetual fart, who don't know a damn thing about engineering and use branding jeans as an argument for damning german cars.

In my world, someone who understands the German racing heritage, engine and design evolution as a just cause for a superiority complex over Japanese imports has a touch more credibility.

BTW, Don't degrade yourself more than you already have by calling me a moron.

Renlex,

You're an idiot. I'm sorry, but I can't help it. You cannot make logical posts or logical assumptions.

Anyone who claims "Toyota's sell more than BMW, therefore they're better." is an idiot. Toyota's are cheaper, hell of a lot of cheaper. Simple economics. You'll learn about that once you reach high school...

this topic was posted with the intention of igniting a flame war. The heading says it all.

There have been many rumor of the up and coming IS-F/500. Some source says it engine has close to 400 hp and and other says 400+ hp. I figure if they put a V8 in the Lexus IS-F, it probably going to have aleast 400 hp to compete with the German. I would be surprise if it come out with 450 hp. If Lexus want to compete with the M3, RS4, and MB C-class, it has to put at least 400 hp under the hood of the IS. The RS4 has 420 hp, the up and coming M3, rumor to have 420 hp too, and the rumor that the next C-class with have will over 400+ hp; Lexus have no choice but to put at least 400+ hp off it own under the hood.

sorry for the fragment sentence:)

Lexus

No need to worry about 400+hp thing. Considering 4.6L 1UR-FSE in LS460 already outputs 380hp/370lb.ft, IS-F with 5.0L 2UR-FSE will be definitely above 400+hp/400lb.ft mark without any drama. 450+hp if redline limit is tuned up for another 1000 RPM up to 7500rpm.

"this topic was posted with the intention of igniting a flame war. The heading says it all." -Boss8can

Indeed. In fact, lets just have another look at the offending heading:

"New Lexus F-Car to topple next BMW M3's supremacy? New details.."

First, how is it that the next M3 has supremacy when it hasn't even been launched yet? How is that possible?

Second, where are the 'new details'?

So it will have competition-rivalling power and a more aggressive nose? Is that a scoop? I mean really....

Talk about over-sensationalised hype. What Autospies readers want is substance to an article, leaked specifications, real spy shots, cars snapped without camo, the first to see new official images of upcoming models....

And can someone fire Agent009? He is polluting Autospies with all manner of useless Toyota-related articles, there is only so much interest one can have in Toyota!

I think people would be more interested in the new S-Class convertible concept car pics which have surfaced on the net, rather than more boring cut-and-pastes regarding some mainstream carmaker that retired people buy....


Maybe it will help limit the amount of drivel-spouting fan boys who can't get their head out of their favourite manufacturer's backside.

r u gonna cry now.

actually yeah, this isn't news at all.
GIVE US NEWS!

I think there is nothing wrong with a little flame going on this website. It nice to see everyone has different opinion and view about the up and coming IS-F. Hey!... if anyone here is bore or don't like this blog, don't read it. But if you would like to state your opinion, etc..good or bad, it does not matter.

Lexus

Agent 001 a war is going out of hand now i think you should start sending your CIA(Cars Intellagent Agents) to start doing their work.

Hyundi is one of the most relieable carmakers so that means that it is the best. Give me a break!!!!!!!!

I'm a car fan but not particulary BMW or Lexus fan so i will give a kind of outsider opinion, as great as both cars might turn out to be the IS will never (ok, never is a lont time) be a menace to M3 supremacy! The target market for lexus isn't really the same as BMW it is more a Mercedes market so i consider this to be a "menace" to C-class AMG! M3 as a huge heritage and it is not that easy to catch up! The RS4 might have done it temporarly but when the new M3 comes out it will be the best one again and a few years later the new RS4 will top it again but in these story IS or C AMG will never be in the leading role!!! Great products perhaps but to a whole diferent market!!

I think IS-F sounds wierd and only time will tell.. if it is better then the m3. It will prob take lexus years tho..lol

I think IS-F sounds wierd and only time will tell.. if it is better then the m3. It will prob take lexus years tho..lol

You are wrong, bulldogz.

M sounded cool from the word go.

A car is a car. It gets from point a to b. All the other stuff is just that stuff. Most Americans go to work in the morning in rush hour traffic with maybe 2 chances to pass another car before you get ran over by a ford F150 that's been lifted in the air like a want to be Bigfoot with the huge loud oversized tires that make no since at all, It screams (redneck) I would take the fancy bling rims any day over that bigfoot trap, getting back to the point Americans who buy high performance cars do not get to really enjoy them at full speed with out getting a ticket. American interstates are not nascar laps no matter how bad you think your car is you will never be Tony or JR you are not them get over it. The germans make great cars but they are just overrated and overpriced God be with you when it comes time to pay for repairs after the short warranty go off. Lexus makes some refined cars with great fit and finish, but lack character , BMW M make great handling car but have ugly (oops) odd style , Audi they all look the same inside and outside most people have no idea what a Audi is .Mercedes amg have high horsepower but not the entire package. I would take the smart way like corvette buyers and save thousands over the german brands that are overrated and overpriced and buy at 300 SRT/8 or STS-V OR CTS-V each one cost thousand less depending on model compared to and offer the same or more power, and with the very popular redesigned CTS-V GETTING READY TO WALK ALL OVER it's so called german rivals with close to 500 hp and tight control game over. When it comes down to it muscle cars back in the day sold because of raw power not fancy interiors that are soft and perfectly put together. For the people and magazines that judge cars on how the dash board feels to the touch you need to get serious help who goes around feeling up dashboards I never met one person that said I love the entire car but the dash feels hard I am not going to buy it. That's like buying BMW X5 and go half a mile off the road to get stuck and learn you brought a 40 50 + soft roader. If you want raw power that’s what you want power and control not how pretty your interior looks like. Lexus I think will not do so good in this crowd.It's to goodie goodie to get a bad boy racer look it's as dead as the IS sportcross or whatever they called that ugly wagon thing.

You're an idiot.

no, he has a clearer view of REALITY on america's roads, than the majority of POSEURS who blow thousands of $$$ just to "look cool" in flashmobiles with magic feel.

hey, not only do i save tons of cash, but i have far more FUN than the poseur dudes. after all, it's FAR MORE FUN DRIVING A SLOW CAR FAST, than HAVING TO DRIVE a fast car SLOW. :}

ApexAlex I agree with you 100% on everything you said.

To that thing called S4cabriofoxone you have clearly shown who the real idiot is YOURSELF.How can you call me a idiot because of a post,you need to get it together.Next time if you have something to say please explain what part you do not like.Why do I even bother something like yourself will never understand.

score, you have a CLEARER VIEW of REALITY on driving in today's traffic clogged roads.

i am fortunate that i'm in an environment of relatively low traffic density. so i do NOT have to limit myself like most fellow citizens elsewhere. and i STILL very rarely unleash all the horses pent-up in my ENORMOUS 1.8 l engine! ;)

not that i drive like a granny. i cruise at 70 on URBAN 4-lanes, 40 - 50 in 35 zones, etc. and i get from pt A to pt B faster than 99% of everyone else.

i also just LOVE winter driving, where i even outdrag 6 and 7 liter beasts, who gotta scrabble for traction. winter is the great equalizer! if there were more poseurs here, i'd have a ball showing them up! (there aren't many, 'cuz most euro cars don't like our interior alaska winter temperatures. the few porsches i ever see only come out in the summer. bimmers" pfaff! the local dealer went out of business! audi, never even had a toehold.)

and yes, RELIABILITY IS a big thing for us out here.

You guy sound like a bunch of **ches in here...Calling yourself car enthusiast; let me put it this way. You like the car: Go get it/ Dont like it, cant afford it...well...then go read about it. Why trip! when car manufacturer compete; you "the consumer win"----Yall should be glad where there’re more cars to choose from. Consider yourself lucky owning one of those car; enjoy it.
Peace out.

You guy sound like a bunch of **ches in here...Calling yourself car enthusiast; let me put it this way. You like the car: Go get it/ Dont like it, cant afford it...well...then go read about it. Why trip! when car manufacturer compete; you "the consumer win"----Yall should be glad where there’re more cars to choose from. Consider yourself lucky owning one of those car; enjoy it.
Peace out.