Was Chris Bangle right all along?

White also looks good in the old Lotus Esprit Turbo from the James Bond movies.

I also happen to still have an old poster of a Lamborghini Countach in White. Seems that white was the most photographed color for that car.

byhsu- Dead on with the Countach comment. I had a poster of the Countach in White.

Yes and no. More on the exterior than the interior. Style and appearance are important, but should not surpass function, especially in a driver-oriented automobile. A testament to his success is imitation by other makers, the greatest form of flattery.

He has more misses than hits in my book. At the end I'd rather have his work and the interesting designs that Infiniti came with than something boring and ubiquitous.

If styling were only a matter of right and wrong.

Bangle is NO Giugiaro, period. Beside, if the fugly 7er and 5er were so successful, why didn’t they continue that direction and take it to the next level, mo fugly? Look at the 3 er coupe, it’s nice and decent so they yielded to public pressure, enough said! BTW, Autospies, stop this kind of flame bait.

You know how you can tell who the pioneers are? They’re the ones with the arrows in their backs.

First, the red tape in a company the size of BMW is a monumental maze that would melt the minds of most "designers." Pushing an idea from one’s head onto a dealer lot is akin quantum physics for the average person. The ability to compromise between executive demands, collaborative ability, deadlines, and your own ideas is Bangle’s real artistic ability.

Bangle was and is right, regardless of how atrocious any one of the designs under his care ended up being. When you innovate, you make mistakes. Point is, he challenged people’s ideas on design. Designs that went way beyond concept illustration teasers, and into the hands of customers, which is more than I can say for much of the competition. I suppose if nothing worked, it would be much easier to brand him insane; but now elements of BMW’s ideas are handily being borrowed everywhere. The competition should thank him.

......
I am speechless....without speech.
I love your perspective, and can't help but think you are either over 40, a designer yourself, or a small business owner.

So which one is it?

p.s. <---This designer wishes the world thought like you ;)

Thanks!

You’re mostly right... I’m not 40... yet; but my perspective is certainly based on personal experience.

I have an appreciation for anyone with the mental endurance to be held accountable for pushing new ideas through the ruthless and absolutely asinine mess that is corporate politics. The fortunate ones find it mind numbing, they get promoted. The rest (the majority) fall victim to madness. In this respect, Bangle is the Superman of the auto design world. He’s responsible for dramatic changes (or innovations, depending on your view), while deflecting a continuous onslaught of very outspoken criticism, often from people who consider themselves BMW loyalists. There’s even an online petition to have him fired; but he has not failed by any objective measurement, and has had an obvious impact on his entire field. I wish the American companies had one of these... Bob Lutz will have to be the hero until then.

Let's put it this way. If I had to choose between a 2007 M5 and a M5 from 2003, the 2003 model would win hands down. Having said that, I absolutely love the new Z4/M coupe.

The only current BMW that fails in the syle department is the 5. The 7 and 3 share the same design theme, but something doesn't work on the 5.

The Z4 coupe and convertible are good designs that do take a while to warm up to.

But the 5 has been around for a while now and still is a little...off.

It's the kidney grill. From the back the car looks really good. From the front it looks like a Pontiac.

A good design doesn't inspire love it or hate it styling. Bangle has ruined what was once a really good thing. There's a reason why BMW's sales are no longer on a rocketship course. BMW faithful have been jumping ship ever since the tragic 7 series came out. It's been a series of disappointments all along.When BMW comes out with the 3 coupe which is the only good looking car they've put out lately it looks nothing like the other Bangle designs. That should tell you they're not too happy with his other designs. Imagine if the next M3 had eyelash headlights like the 5 series? I think if they did that i'd hunt down Bangle myself and strangle him.

Where are you getting these statistics?

Yes.

"smshnick" you've probably been living under a rock since 2002, but I have to break it to ya...Since the 7-series BMW's have been selling better & not only that, they've bumped Mercedes from their #1 spot as the top selling luxury car company in the world.

I will agree with you on the 5-series being ugly, but the current 3-coupe was designed by the same designers & is clearly a Bangle 'flame-surface' design.

I don't have a problem with any of their designs now, but they depend greatly on picking the right wheels. A 5 series does not look good on 16 inchers, neither does a 3 series. And a 7 series looks really good on 20 inch wheels. (stock of course, I hate aftermarket).
My problem is with the 7 series. The design is fine, but it has become far too bloated and fat (hence need for big wheels). I prefer the previous 7 series more.

webguy ... I am in total agreement with you in regards to Bangle's influence on design and the idea or risk/reward behind it. Like it or not, Bangle has probably been the most influencial designer in the last 5 years. People are critical of the back end of the 7-series and overall shaped of it, but why does the LS460 profile look like a carbon copy of the 7-series or does the Mercedes rear remind one of the 7-series ... He took chances and it has paid off. BMW is more profitable and successful than it has ever been. BMW has sold more 7-series in the worldwide than it had in the 2 previuos generations combined. BMW is #1 in the world as a luxury car maker. The new 3-series coupe and soon to be conv are very hot, the new 2007 X5, the Z4, the 6-series and the M brand are the leaders in their perspective segments in sales and profit ... I dont agree with all his designs and would like to change a few things, but have to applaud him for the chance he took and the one BMW took. I work for BMW

Huu76 you are absolutely right! As a matter of facts, the so call “flame boiled surface” and “paradigm shift” bull craps already started when “NO Giugiaro” Bangle was working at Fiat as a no name designer. He did the fugly Fiat coupe and NOBODY gave a clam! Just because he pumps out crap after crap for Bimmers, then his “is” genius!!

Uhh do you guys remember how much flak he caught for the 745i?

huu76, that a bunch of malarkey.

So are you comparing the SC430 of 1999 with the Z9 brand concept?

I see very few design similarities.

Lexus is what it has always been, a brand.

Bangle is a genius. The "Bangle Butt" now adorns so many other brands, as well as "flame surfacing" treatment that plays with light on surfaces... He knows what he is/was doing.

In my opinion...

His successful exterior designs:

7 Series refresh
6 Series (if that counts as a redesign)
3 Series (more coupe than sedan)
5 Series
X5
X3 refresh

Unfortunate exterior designs:

Z4
2002-2005 7 Series
2002(?)-2006 X3
1 Series

Good interior designs:

7 Series
6 Series
X5
X3 refresh

Bad interior designs:

5 Series
3 Series
2002(?)-2006 X3
Z4
1 Series

Most of his exterior designs have aged fairly well over time, and I find the 5 Series, 3 Series coupe and 6 Series particularly beautiful. Most people disagree about the 5- but I've gotten to like it, with the right wheel choice.

For comparison, I will do approval ratings for Audi and Mercedes.

Audi-

Good exterior designs:

2005-2008 A4
A6 (with 18" wheels and up)
A8
TT (new and old)
Q7
A3

Bad exterior designs:

A6 (17" wheels and smaller)
2002-2005 A4

Good interior designs:

All

Mercedes-Benz-

Good exterior designs:

S-Class
CL-Class
CLK-Class
CLS-Class
SL-Class 2003-2006
GL-Class
G-Class
C-Class 2005-2007
E-Class
B-Class

Bad exterior designs:

R-Class
C-Class 2000(?)-2005
SLK-Class
M-Class
SL-Class 2007-2009ish
A-Class

Good interior designs:

S-Class
SL-Class
CL-Class
CLS-Class
CLK-Class
GL-Class
E-Class

Bad interior designs:

R-Class
SLK-Class
M-Class
C-Class
B-Class
A-Class

I agree with most of your exterior choices. Note: I don't think Bangle designed most of the BMW's you list.

You list the Z4 as a failure? Widely regarded as one of the rewarding cars to look at? Every time I look at that car I see another line which highlights the cars active stance, and hunkered good looks.

Its a handsome car, not a pretty one. I take that back its pretty too.

I do. I clearly said it was my "OPINION".

AE-

Yes, van Hooydonk was the main designer for 6, 7 and new X5, but Bangle oversaw every car that I named.

Your opinion is quite amusing.

And you think the Lexus designer (L-Finesse shroud of crap) is a genious, I presume?

as mentioned above, innovation means taking risks. inevitably, there will be failures. but there will also be tremendous successes....the 3 series coupe, the x5, the refreshed 7, etc.

and, ultimately, imitation is the greatest form of flattery. witness the hofmeister kink on every new lexus. the much-maligned rear end of the 7 on countless sedans. the sharp characters lines taken from the first year of the current 5 on mercedes, lexus and numerous other cars.

bangle is one of the few truly creative individuals in the car business.
can you even name another auto designer?

Walter de'Silva.

"S4" I almost agree 100% with your comment on good & bad exterior/interior designs.

The only things I'd change would be the 5er under bad exterior designs (though your right, it looks worlds better with the proper wheels), the Benz B-class under bad designs (I actually prefer the R-class), & the Z4 coupe under good designs.

bring back the old BMW'S.

Go buy one www.ebay.com www.craigslist.com

I happen to have one for sale 1978 Euro 323i.

No one wants old BMW's, there is a reason new BMW's sell better.

I assume you have an e39? Is that the 'old' you want brought back?

contrary to popular MISconception, the bangle butt is NOT being widely copied today.

what IS being copied, is the clean roof to bumper line first intro'd on a NISSAN maxima of a coupla generations ago. it's a meld of a long fastback roof to bumper crease line, with the rectangular lower body, with the "intersecting" line merely IMPLIED.

the bangle butt, is similar only is making the trunk volume BULGE OUT, with NO integration of forms. it has since been modified, to more closely approach the FAR cleaner nissan theme.

the hofmeister kink is likewise not original with bmw.

it was a feature of MANY late '40s and early '50s gm cars. and even on early '70s toyotas.

so one could even say, "bmw COPIED toyota!" (who copied gm).

Being an ex e34 owner myself I agree with you completely. The car drove uber well, and fit the era well, but in stock form it looked fat(You have to admit lowered with some Alpina wheels and M5 bumper the e39 looked athletic). It lost the lean straight cut lines of the e34. It got more and more pleasing to the masses, less and less controversial, but also at the end of its life dated and old.
Long live tension in surfacing :)

Josh

I'm changing my mind on the M-Class. I was thinking about it last night- and the ML320 CDI popped into my head. That would definitely be a car to look at for the wife. Fantastic AMG bodykit (looks just like an ML63 except for the exhausts), interior which I have yet to experience looks no worse than the RX, and filled with options for $60,245. That would be a great price for almost 400 lb. ft of torque and almost every option.

Agreed. He does look odd there, and many other pictures.

I admire him as a designer.

It's his eyes. They're creepy.

He was right, look at BMWs sales right now! Before bangle BMW were far behind in sales, now.... they are on top. Seriously Lexus fans stop all the moaning and jealousy. Bangle is probably the most famous designer in our time, almost everyone heard his name somewhere! He changed the world, and I admire him and like his designs. He put BMW 100 years forward with his stunning and futuristic designs. Look at the old 5 series, too simple that it almost looked like a box! Look at the new one, although about 4 years old, still stunning and doesnt look dated. Go BMW!

NO matter how ugly the BMWs get, they continue to sell. I think most people would agree they drive well, even if they're not everyone's preference. But since most people dont drive their cars at the limits, and many people agree that the designs have been unattractive since Bangle took over, why do the sales keep going up? Marketing. From the early 80s, BMW has cultivated their image- with yuppies, as the ultimate driving machine, appearing in movies and videos- and they are now reaping the rewards. You take the propeller off any one of those cars, and the sales would tank.
And while Bangle did ruin gorgeous cars, he cannot take the blame for the horrid Bangle butt. that ridiculous design cue has been around far too long. Accords, Volvos, some Chryslers had them in the 90s. So basically everybody today is emulating a Plymouth Breeze. Gotta love that.

there is an ad on British TV now advertising the whole BMW brand, with most (if not all) of their cars. It's very audi-like in appearance, all dark and brooding (audi adverts in the UK are very dark and evil).
I've never seen a "brand" advert before like that, and it is a long advert. must have been expensive.

actually, the RX is the only lexus that doesn't look like anything else on the road.

huu ... what are you talking about? Aside from the Rx. Copy and paste the Supposedly new and fabulous design of the Lexus LS460 side shot and then take the BMW 745Li do the same and they are 90% the same. I know Lexus is not like anything else on the road. Why does the back of the Lexus look almost exactly alike the Acura TL with the same exhaust set up which is flush to the corners of the lower fascia ...

How bout take the back of the lexus GS and look at the back of the Nissan Maxima ( which came out first ) and tell me that they are not almost identical ( even down to the arch in the C-pillar .... How the Lexus Es compared to the Camry? I think you have to get over yourself and realize like the rest of thw world that Lexus builds a boring car which is a copy of everything else on the market. I know but you will say that the IS is different. I would agree until you deck out a Honda Civic with ground effects and before you know it you have a IS-F or the new M3 fighter by Lexus .... Will Lexus every come up with an original design? I will give Lexus Props for the RX, cause that has been and always will be a nice looking vehicle, if you are a woman that is. The only people ever driving the Lexus Rx are women. The Lexus RX is the ONLY Reason Lexus sells more vehicles in the US, than BMW. THE ONLY REASON.

the RX far outsells ES and IS.
according to automotive news the RX sold over 100k in '06, the ES around 70k and the IS around 45k.

i think that was he was right, what people on here think aside, or anyone else for that matter, how you can tell whether a car was a success or not is by how it sold, the 3 series, and 5 series are very succesful as are the rest of the bmw line (for the most part). alot of the styling in the new s class, interior and exterior seem bangle inspired, its just that bmw has really always had somewhat conservative desighns, and with so many cars looking the same it was important for a brand like bmw to not be caught up in it that looks just like this, so be unique and different, make it stand out from the crowd....every other luxury car company is trying the much more radical and bolder styling cues, and desighns, well except volvo, so everyone else must agree also

huu, the Lexus looks like no other car on the road? You must be joking.

I was parking my car at the mall a few weeks ago, and there were two... 5 Serieses? One of them was a 545i... and then I got closer to the other one... it was an LS460. They were two spaces away from each other, with a car in between, and I honestly thought it was two BMWs.

It isn't the designs of Lexus cars overall that lend them their drabness- it's the puke-inducing use of styling details from other automakers which, when combined, don't fuse to make the most attractive car. Take the new LS, for example:

It has...

S-Class grille, just without the bar in the middle

Phaeton-look headlamps, but too large for the rest of the body

Single chrome strip at the bottom à la Bentley

Hoffmeister kink

Undeniably 5 Series taillamps, with a hint of Honda Odyssey

A dash of 7 Series butt

And there you have the new, "beautiful" LS460. Just add slab sides and water, bake for ten minutes, and it's ready!

ALL luxury cars had increased sales in recent years. including UGLY beemers.

compare against the PERCENTAGE GROWTH of Lexus. UNafflicted with dumb Banglisms.

lexus is largely two cars: ES and RX. enough said.

oh look, another idiot.

Where did all the logical argument, and discussion go. It has come down to I think this looks like this, and you think this looks like this.

For some reason brand loyalty has clouded good judgment. We can analyze these cars exterior designs and critique them up and down and chances are we will still be far of.

The limited amount I know about BMW suggests it is not likely that they would have used a competing car, from the past or future car from the competitor to base there future design theme. It would probably be wiser to look outside the closest and most obvious connections and look more towards things not so obvious.

It does not take much time to look into these companies and get a feel for how they do things. Lexus is a brand before anything. They started as a brand, and continue to be profitable operating in that manner. They are a brand of Toyota, cars are developed by Toyota for the Lexus brand, or cars are developed by Toyota and shared with the Lexus brand.

BMW is an independent company, not a subsidiary. They use one of there own in or out of house design teams to develop there product.

From looking at that corporate/design structure what is more likely. BMW is chasing Lexus styling, or Lexus is responding to BMW styling. Or maybe neither of them give 2 shits about the other, and just chase sales, and customer satisfaction, and just maybe sometimes customers demand something similar from 2 different companies?

I am so sick and tired of hearing about the "hofmeister kink".

That curved line has been around since a hairy caveman carved it into a slab of rock. Just because BMW gave it a name doesn't mean they invented the damn thing.

And I would really love it if people would ditch those stupid Lexus GS/ Nissan design comments. Nissan's recent designs were heavily influenced by the second generation GS. Nobody mentions this fact. People crap on Lexus for continuing a design theme they originated with their 3rd generation GS. That makes the kind of sense that doesn't.

To be fair to BMW I don't think they ever officially named the kink. I have not seen any formal statement claiming that 'look', or the name as there own.

The fanboys on the other hand forget that designers are inspired by everything including past cars.

I do like the fact that they have kept this 'kink'.

The article starts with the incorrect assumption that BMW's profitability and sales numbers are a result of the Flame Surface styling language. There is no evidence to support this notion.

BMW has always been profitable, thanks to their strong leadership and management team. BMW's unit sales have always been trending upwards, thanks to BMW being an outstandingly well branded car, and because it delivers the BMW Drive.

Conclusion: People want BMW, and they buy BMW, because it is BMW. They do so in spite of the disappointing defect numbers, the ugly duckling styling, the insanity of iDrive, and gadgets that just plain don't work (read up on Launch Control, which has a high probability of trashing the transmission and/or differential if used exactly as intended).

So was Bangle "right". He did as he was told, and delivered on BMW executives' expectations: His team took BMW in a bold new styling direction.

Unfortunatly, most of the world still thinks BMW makes ugly cars.

I know someone (I say know...and I say someone...meaning I heard of a rich Saudi Prince) whose SMG on his M5 locked up...solid. On a 3 lane, 70mph road.
scary.

He did nothing to "challenge design." All he did was bend sheet metal in weird ways around existing platforms. Radical design is like the McLaren F1, putting the driver in the center of the car and with a passenger on either side. Nobody is doing anything radical these days, just making windows smaller and adding polygons.

I assume by existing platforms you mean that the 3/5/7 series most recent variations are really just the underpinnings of the e46, e39, and e38 with some new metal?