Inside Line: Audi RS4 vs. BMW M5

the daily pro audi chewy post. The difference between BMW and Audi is when you go to a BMW factory you see BMW parts in BMW boxes, at the Audi factory you see a lot VW parts in VW boxes, info from New York Times. a great Audi car however a new A4 is due in Sept, so $70,000 on a car that will be outdated in the fall.

"a great Audi car"

A quote from Larry? How is that possible, but I guess when numerous publications say that an Audi is better than BMW you can't pretend anymore.

The new generation A4 will debut this September, but the A4 will only come to the states next year. And when it comes the S4 will be available which won't quite have the same performanceof the current RS4.

I reference to "the Daily Pro Audi post"? We post daily pro Toyota, BMW, Lexus, MB and most major marquees..

The main reason you see more post of some marquees is that their PR department simply does a better job sending out materials to their press sites and to other publications. This is something the Germans do very well and the Japanese choose not emphasize.

A great example is the recent flood of information of the A5 S5 from Audi. The press has tons of information on these upcoming models and you see lots of coverage. Everything from pictures to specific details In comparison the Lexus IS-F has had very little published about it since the debut. Basically Lexus doesn't mention it at all, hence the press and print for the model wanes.

In comparison of the two models, I would say the Lexus is a far more pivotal model for the industry, but the vacuum of facts by Lexus gives it little coverage. IMHO, the Japanese are not toot their horn enough for this marketplace and could be far better if they did.

Larry

the new A4 will be out in 2 years 2009 model year and the RS4 EOP is by then

Larry you said wait for the M3 and the RS4 has been out for over a year and has only one year left.

Vulgar and abusive language...automatic disconnect.

That's actually true. And kinda funny. Like seeing Corvette parts in a GM box huh. Or Cooper parts in a BMW box, or Lexus parts in a Toyota box..and on and on.

While that is true Edmunds chose the two because they are the only 400+ hp European sport sedans with a manual gearbox.

Yeah! but the BMW M5 has 500+ hp and the Audi RS4 has only 420 hp. Imagine what would this Audi RS4 do to the M5 if it has 500 hp of it own. But the RS4 is a BMW M3 competitor. Between this two I would go with the Audi RS4.

And yet, the RS4 is still better, Lexus.

Horsepower isn't all it's made out to be.

The M5 V10 was never designed to work with a 6-spd manual.

It’s the equivalent of a sprinter running a race wearing a shoe that’s one size smaller.

It’s so unlike the M-division to be this sloppy and just bolt on the transmission from the previous M5. It almost appears to be done out of spite.

BMW needs to make amends to its legion of fans for this sloppiness.

A 420 HP DSG-equipped M3 is a very good start.

You are absolutely right. The problem with the M5 as we realizing is that not every engine is designed to have an MT.
The S85 was never planned to have a MT. Unlike the S65 M3 engine that was design with MT from the inception.
We in North America craved for it, and now that we have it- we are not that impressed.

However, the manual still got a better time than the DSG.

NEITHER seem like great matches for the new M5. The last-gen was just a better machine. The RS4 seems to be an E39 M5 reincarnate.

Still, I would never trade my M5 for an RS4. They basically appeal to different people. Both are great cars no doubt, but they dont compete. And as WeaponX mentioned, the M5 isnt made for the manual gearbox. Some people cant get in their thick heads that the SMG is a manual without a cluch. Not to mention that if you put the M5 facing the RS4 it would scare the hell out of it. Anyway, both are great cars but for me, M5 is the my choice.

if smg was so good BMW would not be copying Audi to get a DSG

^It's true.

M53R, if I were you, I WOULD trade the M5 for the RS4. The Audi is more exclusive, less-expensive (ironically), and according to most publications, has a more tactile feel, like the E39 M5. I don't dislike the M5, but this article left me without good feelings towards it. Perhaps they were a little too harsh in the wake of the RS4's greatness, but I digress...

In fact, I really do like the M5. It's a beautiful car. I guess they don't cater to the same buyer.

I don't think the M5 "scares the hell" out of the RS4. Neither of them is a lightweight!

I am happy Edmunds saw the big picture, not just 0-60 or the quarter mile like so many other magazines/forums where this 2 car get compared. Yes, the M5 is a faster car at any speed, but the transmission are the big problem for it. SMG or manual, none of them makes me wanna buy an M5. Other then that, the engine is a masterpiece, and they should come out with a proper transmission for it. From the article I read the manual sucks really bad and not even the SMG clutch cannot really sustain the engine properly. M5 is really bad at regular driving and that is completely turning me off.

I would choose the RS4 over the M5 at any day. Especially after reading this article, but I had that feeling before, of course. One article doesn't change a lot.

But I wanna wait for the new S5 now, just to see how is the new Audi (supposed to be with all new technology..)

This article is a tad short sighted. It does not elaborate as to why the M5 won't let you turn the traction control completely off(btw most sport sedans with this much power wont let you turn it completely off i.e. merc, jag)

The engine as stated above was not made to run with a manual trans. It rev's to fast, and drivers could not handle the engine without the restraint of the SMG transmission. Personally I do not know why you would compare the handicapped manual trans to the amazing RS4 platform, it just does not tell the entire story.

Read up on the engine/trans combo out of the M5 and you will see its not as straight forward as other engine/trans combo's out there.

That being said I have no doubts the rs4 with a manual out performs the m5 with the manual, but I just can't get over the sound of the new m5.

Could just be my dreams of driving anything formula 1 related coming out.
Josh

p.s. There are plenty of people who love the SMG, they knew what they were getting when they bought the car and understand that race technology sometimes has the feel of race cars. It is not a Merc, Audi, or Jag. It is a BMW, if we can all assume that they all do things just a bit different and that certain brands align better with certain needs we can get over the idea that one is better than the other.

Personally like I said above, I just want something related for F1. Although I would never sell my manual cars, not in a heartbeat, but I won't say that the SMG is bad, it is just different, and fast, and exhilarating.

:)

If you heard the sound of the RS4's V8 (one of the sexiest V8 sounds on the planet, as of now), it would be hard to choose even from the sounds of these two beasts. Both have some of the most distinctive exhaust notes in sport sedan-ry.

week argument.

The porsche GT lets you turn it off / the reason is the poor trans will not take the power

What I dont understand is how the SMG trans is so misunderstood? It is a race inspired transmission. If you are looking for a everyday driving car, then buy an automatic 550 or Audi S5. The M5 is a high revving race car saloon. If you drive it for what it is, then the SMG is awesome. My clients that have M5's dont use them as everyday cars. My friend who has a M5, loves his car. I find the smg very easy to use and understand. I also would use the car for what it is and not what it isnt.

But the whole point of the M5 is that you're supposed to use it everyday. It's not some race-bred lunatic car, it's a 5 series with a warp engine. And when using it everyday is uncomfortable, it makes you look elsewhere.

rupert ... what are you talking about? The SMG can be driven everyday, but the M5 was not designed for an everyday sitting in traffic kind of car. It is a performance saloon and the fastest 4 dr of its kind. It is a Performance sports sedan. It uses a v10 engine which is race inspired. If you want an everyday car, then go buy the Audi S6, the BMW 550, The mercedes E550 or something along those lines. I love the Smg and have never had any problems that people on here have. It is not that difficult to drive.

About the RS4, for the money why not save it and buy a 335xi. Take out your computer and download a software upgrade to boost the horsepower and torque. Basically, I can have the same performance on a superior car for about 15k less.

a) DSG is not amazing everywhere. You are correct to say that it is the fastest shifting automatic in the world. If I want an automatic transmission, then I will buy an automatic.

b) how is Idrive hard to use? My girlfriend who is not computer literate at all, figured it out in 10 minutes. Most of the things on the Idrive you will use one time to set up radio stations and ventilation settings. Once you do that, it can be operated via the steering wheel buttons or voice commands. Why is that so hard? Maybe you believe everything you read.

e) audi has more brand loyalty than BMW? You are right and it shows. That is why they are and always will sell less cars than BMW. That is why the resale of an Audi will always be in the toilet. If their brand loyalty is so high, wouldnt that relate to how successful they are. How exactly is the A6 selling? A8? the A4? Compared to BMW, there is no comparison...

Right. "No comparison." They're a lowly #2 to BMW right now- it would be SO hard for them to be #1!

As if.

"About the RS4, for the money why not save it and buy a 335xi. Take out your computer and download a software upgrade to boost the horsepower and torque. Basically, I can have the same performance on a superior car for about 15k less. "

You just don't get it, do you?

And, THE WHOLE POINT OF THE M5 IS THAT IT'S A FAST CAR THAT YOU CAN DRIVE EVERY DAY. I don't want to hear any excuses about a jerky "race-bred" transmission or a high-revving engine. It IS a car that plenty of people sit in traffic with, but that's what it was designed for. It's made to carve corners AND eat interstate miles. That's what's beautiful about it, and the RS4. I'd take either, regarldess of the stupid SMG. I COULD get either if I really wanted to, but I'm not getting a sedan for my daily driver any time soon.

BMW-the M5 WAS built for everyday use! Are you a moron? Its certainly not a track car, its an everyday 4 door sports car for people who love driving.Your comment is just so stupid i really think you have no clue what you are talking about.

a) SMG is good, on a track, when screaming. Not anywhere else. DSG is amazing, everywhere. Fastest shifting auto in the world.

b) iDrive solves a prablem that never existed, and is hard to use while driving

c) Your brain is full of straw. There is 1 much changed Porsche (Q7 shares more with Cayenne than Touareg), 1 much changed Lambo (R8), 1 much changed Golf (A3) and another Golf that shares under 10% of parts, with 58% by weight aluminium (TT).

d) Quattro is the best 4WD in the world.

e) not true. usually a slight difference. but the 3.2 A6 with quattro is more expensive than a 530i. Audi has had brand loyalty comprable to BMW for the last 20 years.

I don't have an Audi, my family have 2 BMWs.

the best part of that comment is that you have a 9 year old son and you own a M5.. so you had your kid when you were 5 years old because you act like your 14, aand i dont know any 14 yr old with a M5. Stop lying about having a kid and owning a M5, no mature Adult would ever post the crap that you post on this site.

idiot

please ban this idiot

look at his last 300 post they are all the same stupid comments

Well the Audi R8 is defeating Porsche in comparison tests and the RS4 is taking down the BMW M5.

The RS4 prices are staggering for an A4 on steroids and the R8 price tag for the V8 is approaching levels beyond an M6 convertible.

The V10 will be more expensive than any BMW ever produced at a price tag starting at $125K for a base car.

Nut...two words

M3 CSL.

German nut ... news flash about pricing.. The R8 at $125 is and will not be more expensive than any BMW. 2003 we had the Alpina Z8 or from 2000 to 2003 the regular Z8 .. how bout the 2007 760li individual edition ..Just because Audi is going to build a R8 V10 doesnt mean that it is worth the money. Dont get me wrong, the R8 I think is the best car that Audi has built in years. The RS4 is a phenomenal car. I think though, and this is just my opinion, that it is a little too price heavy and that could hurt it in the long run

528i- good try at being funny, but you made yourself look stupid...M3 is not a word its a name, a word cannot contain numbers and CSL also is not a word it actually stands for 3 words (Coupé Sports Lightweight)

but I am not surprised, alot of BMW fans have no clue what they are talking about.

"2003 we had the Alpina Z8 or from 2000 to 2003 the regular Z8 .. how bout the 2007 760li individual edition"

The Z8 was not $125,000, if I remember. If it was, it was WAY overpriced.

And the 760Li Individual? It's not an "edition", it's a package. Compare apples to apples, here. If you want to play that way-- the A8L W12, with INDIVIDUAL, custom-designed wood, piping and color options, can reach about $180,000. There was one at the Audi Forum in NY, in an amazing crystal-like custom blue color, for $174,000. I didn't see it myself, but I read that a man walked up to the Forum, saw the car, and said "May I buy that car, please?" They replied, "Sir, it's on display." "Just give me it. How much?" "$174,000 (or something along that number)." He then wrote the check, and smugly stated, "I will now lend you my car for this event."

was the CSL sold in the United States?

Get your facts correct before posting.

THE CSL was a European ONLY car.

it dosn't matter.

german nut .. before you quote something , maybe get your facts str8. Last time I checked, the V10 R8 hasnt been announced with pricing. So you are speculating at the cost of the vehicle. Better yet, has pricing been announced on the V8 R8?

look for the R8s to come out with pricing in about a month and look for the 120k + number

The reason why Audi has not sold as well as BMW is because for maximum performance Audi charges WAY too much and doesn't even offer BMWesque drive engagement to compliment that performance.

If you look at the prices of Audi's RS cars they are greater than BMW M cars but the problem is Audi's RS cars don't offer that extra all-around performance to warrant their higher prices.

Sure the RS6 may have been faster than the M5, but did it corner as well or provide as much feedback....NOPE.

The RS4 may be faster than the M3 in the straights but does it offer the same feedback.....NOPE

The R8 may look like an exotic, it may offer Porsche rivaling straight-line and track performance but does it provide feedback the way the 911 Turbo does....NOPE.

If Audi can manage to build their RS line with maximum feedback to add to their maximum performance capabilities...Audi will become the world's best selling luxury brand hands-down.

"The RS4 may be faster than the M3 in the straights but does it offer the same feedback.....NOPE

The R8 may look like an exotic, it may offer Porsche rivaling straight-line and track performance but does it provide feedback the way the 911 Turbo does....NOPE."

In fact, you're wrong. The RS4 has bested the M3 quite a few times in handling feel, and in this article, easily beats the M5. They rated the RS4's handling as "Excellent" and the M5's only as "Good."

Fast, but unengaging RS cars are a thing of the past.

As for the R8... read the latest articles. Beats the 911 in every one.

These poor BMW fans, making so many excuses for Audi's success.

I pity them, pulling these comments out of their @sses. It must hurt.

I agreed.... they cant take the truth...

Yea i am an Audi and MB fans, but I respect the 3 series and M5 too. They are all good cars

BMW4me4ever, the pricing has been announced on the R8, in Europe, at least.

It's (in England) £76,725. Check your latest CAR magazine, where they compared it to the Carrera 2S and the Gallardo.

However, it will be less expensive than that ("translated" into $) in the US, because all of our cars are cheaper. :-P

S4 ... how pathetic is it that audi fans are so defensive of their cars. What did I say about the M5? It is a performance saloon that is meant to be driven hard and aggressive. For the people that like to drive it everyday, then you sacrifice some comfort for that. The SMG is not a jerky transmission. If you just get in the vehicle and drive it without proper instruction, then " yes" it will be jerky and annoying. As with anything, when you get proper instruction about the dynamics of functionality of the transmission, then it is a blast to drive. I enjoy driving my cars. I love the drive-by-wire feel that the SMG provides you.

What are you talking about not geting it? I have been doing this line of work for 12 years now. I have been to alot of driving schools across the country. My race cars professionally and love to go to driving events whenever I get the chance. What is annoying is people that come on here and suggest things that arent true or base their knowledge on things they havent experienced ... The RS4 is a nice car. Do I think it is worth $74k in the US no? I have driven it extensively. My brother is one of the top mechanics for Audi. Please dont explain to me how I dont get it.

Why would anyone have to make excuses for Audi's success? Lets get this str8, Audi will not catch BMW in sales. In the US, they are simply overlooked. No offense the Audi A4 3.2 doesnt compete very well to the BMW 330/335. The A6 doesnt compete very well with the BMW 5-series ... The A8 doesnt compete very well with the 7-series ... The Q7 as you will see now that the X5 is up to full production, wont compete very well with the X5... I cant speak for Europe but here in the US, everyone knows that Audi is treated as a 2nd class citizen. The sales in the US speak for themselves ... BMW 3-series sells more cars in the US than the entire Audi lineup.

Let me start by saying that the last generation M5 (and the whole 5-series) was my favorite car outside of a Porsche 911. It's not Audi's fault that BMW did not design the M5 with a manual in mind - this was BMW's mistake. The M division now seems to add all of the "electronic nannies" that they complained Mercedes was doing to their vehicles. It seems BMW has lost their way with this new M5. Everybody makes mistakes sometime. The M5 hasn't really done well in any recent comparisons it's been in.
As for Audi - they just made a great car - there is nothing else to argue about...
As an fyi - It is true that in the U.S. Audi is "perceived" to be a notch below BMW and Mercedes it's not in the rest of the world. Read this link (it's easier than downloading from Audi's site) and you will see that the A6 actually is the leading car in it's segment worldwide - so imagine if it actually sold well here. You will also see the numerous international awards that the company received from the industry and voted by consumers. Facts are facts - BMW is #1 worldwide but the gap is closing:

http://www.audiworld.com/news/07/2007-audi-press-conference-part1/

"how pathetic is it that audi fans are so defensive of their cars. What did I say about the M5? It is a performance saloon that is meant to be driven hard and aggressive. For the people that like to drive it everyday, then you sacrifice some comfort for that. The SMG is not a jerky transmission. If you just get in the vehicle and drive it without proper instruction, then " yes" it will be jerky and annoying."

What you don't get is, THE M5 ISN'T A TRACK CAR. It is a performance sedan, designed for EVERY DAY USE. I'd say about 10% of M5 owners take it to the track, and that number is even smaller in the US.

"Why would anyone have to make excuses for Audi's success? Lets get this str8, Audi will not catch BMW in sales. In the US, they are simply overlooked. No offense the Audi A4 3.2 doesnt compete very well to the BMW 330/335. The A6 doesnt compete very well with the BMW 5-series ... The A8 doesnt compete very well with the 7-series ... The Q7 as you will see now that the X5 is up to full production, wont compete very well with the X5..."

Saying they won't "catch" BMW in sales is pretty short-sighted. As if you haven't noticed, the US simply isn't Audi's most important market. The brand has a HUGE foothold in Europe and Asia, and the US is probably a distant fifth or sixth compared to some of their other markets. They sell about twice as well in Britain, to give you an idea. Britain isn't even their largest market.

They've already surpassed Mercedes. Don't be too surprised if they eat BMW's lunch.

Another 911 fan. The last generation 5 series was also my favorite. How do build an M5 w/ a manual tranny as an afterthought? Hey, I can't afford one so it doesn't matter much to me.

To go on...

"No offense the Audi A4 3.2 doesnt compete very well to the BMW 330/335. The A6 doesnt compete very well with the BMW 5-series ... The A8 doesnt compete very well with the 7-series ... The Q7 as you will see now that the X5 is up to full production, wont compete very well with the X5..."

I agree about the A4 3.2. I hate the 3.1L engine (it's actually a 3.1 but they badge it as a 3.2), and the 2.0T is much more fun. The 2.0T is probably more fun than the 328i- it was better than the 325i.

The A6 and 5 are quite different. A6 sells better worldwide, and is more of a design/luxury leader. 5 is the performance sedan in this segment. As Lexus has shown this country, luxury usually appeals to a larger market. I like them both, a lot. I wouldn't ever buy a 525i (the new 528i is justifiable), because it's pathetic, but I'd take a 530/535i over an A6 3.2 and an A6 4.2 S-Line over a 550i Sport, because I love the 4.2L V8 so much.

You're wrong about the A8; it's the other way around. The 7 Series weighs more, isn't as good to look at, isn't as nice on the inside, has almost identical acceleration times (350hp vs. 360hp, but the A8 weighs less, I mention again), and although handling is subjective, I can bring up a few articles that prefer the A8's handling to the 7's.

The Q7 and the X5 won't have drastically different sales worlwide. I'm not sure which one sells better, but the X5 sells better (by a small margin) in the US.

Finally some logic about brand alignment:)

I think they are nuts, a CTS-V or 335i are much cheaper, better choices. For $45k-$50k you can have a proper RWD car not a FWD car in drag. And for under $6k the V can be modified to 500 hp and the 335i to 420 or so. I personally like the aproach of having a dedicated sports car and a luxury sedan.

The CTS-V is way over priced for the $2 interior that it offers. Great engine, but it is way to cheap inside.
Oh and by the way.....The SMG is more of an Automatic than the DSG is!!
DSG is based on a manual tranny and SMG on an Auto.
Search around, you'll see...

Wrong.

People on this topic need to really educate themselves before sharing there opinion as fact.

The BMW SMG is based off of a sequential box which is electronically actuated. Why not electronically actuate the normal H pattern 6 speed? It is easier to electronically actuate a sequential box (like most motorcycle transmissions). I assume you can see why it is easier. If not read this :)
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox.htm

The DSG is a 'new' transmission. Which although the DSG was coined by VW/Audi, it is really a Borg Warner transmission. It uses twin clutch packs, and 2 sets of gears. I think this link best explains it.
http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/ag_howDSGworks.htm

Because of two rows of gears/clutch, it can perform virtually seamless shifts. I think the DSG is great, and I can't wait to see what other brands do with the Borg Warner technology.

Josh

How is this so hard for you fanboys to get. The BMW is what it is, who cares what it has been in the past(which BTW if you ask M they would probably say they were working at this all along). They are now deciding to do things different with the inclusion of the SMG. They have changed the tone of the M5 to be abit more high strung. This is OK. This does not make it any better or any worse than the RS4, or s8 or whatever. It is just more high strung, and some people including myself love that. I long for F1 technology....

That being said the RS4 is a different car, the idea that one is better than the other is asinine. They are different cars, they provide different experiences. Quit thinking that what you want in a car has to be what others want. We all have different ideas of good. When you start believing your idea of 'good' is superior to others you assume you are not only an expert, but that your opinion is so well rounded that you can assert your opinion as some sort of fact meant for argument. This is not science, this is opinion. It's not your job to change mine.

What is right for you is not right for everyone. If you don't like the RS4 because its roots are a fwd car then thats fine, but it does not take away from the cars feats, and abilities. If you don't like SMG and I-Drive then that is also fine, but it does not take away from the cars hugely technical abilities, race bred manners, and F1 demeanor.

It just means they are different cars and your needs or desires align better with one or the other.

Peace,
Josh

i'm sure the BMW fans on this web site will hate to admit it but the current M5 is an overpriced piece of junk. between the vanos line failures and the smg crapping out who would ever want one of these cars? dont' believe me? just check out the m5board. BMW blew it with this generation M 5.
sure it is a true performer but at what price? the RS 4 may not put up as good as straight line numbers but it delivers very well everywhere else. plus....it looks a lot better inside and out!

I frequently lurk on the m5 board. It seems the problems you stated don't pollute the general idea that the M5 is still a great car. After searching and reading faq's I just don't get the feeling that buying an M5 will mean It will spend its lifetime in the shop.

Trust me I believe the vanos line failure and some sensor failures that have been seen are a disheartening sight, but it is hardly a reason to dismiss the car as 'junk'.

Bringing up weak points about a car is a great thing, highlighting its weakness creates better cars in the future. Formulating a one sided brand loyalty based opinion seems like a bad idea to me. Especially one which sacrifices critical thinking for loyalty.

Josh

I'm really dissappointed in BMW with the current 5. Both the interior and exterior styling is OFF. Then they don't design the M5 like an M car but like an AMG Benz. They ruined what was my favorite sedan (the previous 5 series). That is why I respect Porsche so much - th 911 stays the 911 and doesn't become something else.

Most would say they went less enthusiast and more hardcore. Less easy, more challenge. Which does not remind me of AMG.

I say less enthusiast because they are in the process of creating tomorrow's enthusiast, and are not doing the best job at pleasing todays. It has been this way for awhile. You can't imagine the pissing and moaning about the e30 m3 being no replacment for a Tii, because of its weight.

This is a cycle. If they pleased the enthusiasts of today, they wouldn't have customers tomorrow. If they were not hardcore cutting edge in there motorsports branded car then I would lose interest in BMW and maybe switch to another brand making the hardcore motorsports variants. Wait I already did :)

Josh

The M5 is cutting edge yes - but hardcore - no. Hardcore is something that uses less - not more electronic aids and such like. A Porsche Carrera GT is hardcore - as opposed to a McLaren SLR Benz. The Benz can probably be driven by anybody but not that Porsche. A Dodge Viper is hardcore - as opposed to a BMW 6-series. One small example a stick-shift might be old news - but you have some people that just want to shift themselves. It's like comparing Formula 1 to prototype racing. F1 might oooh and ahhh for its technology - but prototype racing is more "hardcore" to me because it doesn't have all the electronic trappings of F1. In this comparison the RS4 is more hardcore than the M5 - my point is that you could never say that before. As I write this it makes sense to me - BMW is heavily involved in F1 while Audi is competing in prototype racing.

Prototype racing is as ohh and awee as F1. That being said I agree with you and maybe hardcore was not the right word. I do think the M5 is a F1 showcase in a road car. I do not think the RS4 is a prototype showcase in a road car. I think its just a good car, with a great engine, if only they could move it back. :) oh wait they did.

Josh

Both cars are awesome.

Of the two in this review I would pick the M5. But that is only because I hate that blue color on the Audi. If both were in black, I would take the Audi.

Nothing wrong with the M5 but, like others have said, that manual does not belong. SMG doesn't bother me.

My beef with the M5 is its damn computer. I want a car that I don't have to dial up the perfect settings just to use all of the performance. The CLS63 has 8/10ths of the handling, looks better, and performs without the distractions.

You guys need to read european articles about the rs4 & M5 & M3,RS4 is a new generation car,new M3 must still come out .The Audi R8 is a RS4 with a new body and a much higher price.I would take the BM's over audis & mercs,mercs over audis,i have been fortunate to have driven BMW320i & A4 2,0 & merc C180 K all 06 to 07 models and i found the BM the sportiest,including 90's models.

You guys need to read european articles about the rs4 & M5 & M3,RS4 is a new generation car,new M3 must still come out .The Audi R8 is a RS4 with a new body and a much higher price.I would take the BM's over audis & mercs,mercs over audis,i have been fortunate to have driven BMW320i & A4 2,0 & merc C180 K all 06 to 07 models and i found the BM the sportiest,including 90's models.

Reading this pissing match is too funny. These are sports sedans - not sports cars. Right off the bat, the platforms have major compromises compared to what could be built in a car. They are both portly. They have too many doors. The seating positions are too high. If you want a real sports car, easily livable in the real world - buy a Porsche. Forget 0-60 times etc, the driving experience is superior.

That said, tomorrow I'm writing a check for an RS4. My A3 bores me, my modified 911 turbo will eat alive any BMW or Audi street car ever made (and has been doing so at track events for over a decade) and my older 911 C4S is now totally outclassed in every performance envelop by the RS4, even if the C4S feels more sporty.

Most people who can afford either and M5 or and RS4 can afford to have real sports car as well. So this arguing over "sporty" minutiae in cars that aren't even sports cars....is pretty silly. I need my car to perform well in rain (Seattle) and take me snowboarding. Not gonna do that in an M5. End of my story. Each of you has YOUR story. Get lives.