The WAR to settle the SCORE? Who will win? Lexus IS-F or BMW M3?

I cant believe that you would even compare these two cars. The battle should and will be between the Audi RS4 and the M3. The lexus wont even be able to hold a candle to the BMW M3.

Ethnocentrism anyone?

I don't understand why everyone keeps comparing the shitty IS to the 3. There was no comparison to begin with, so what makes you think a highpowered IS will be any different?

The real battle will be between the S5/RS5 and M3.

IS350 was faster than the 330i, and is just as fast as the 335i. The only way the 3-Series comes out on top in every comparison test is the very intangible "handling" (a.k.a. "magic feel").

The same will be the case between the M3 and IS-F, but on a more extreme level.

"Lexus and company don't mean shit overhere"

With these comments, you can really tell Lexus has put the fear in some people. I said it once, I'll say it again. Lexus is still a young company - most especially in Europe. It "don't mean shit" there because they haven't really been trying...yet.

I know and you know (though you won't admit it) that in a short space of time, Lexus will conquer Europe as well as it did the US.

You can bet on it.

Will, a sports car is more than just speed. The IS handles very poorly, and adding more power will not change that.

Oldest continent !? The idiocy of your remarks sort of underline your absolute ignorance! "It is controversial whether Earth's budget of continental crust is increasing, decreasing, or remaining about constant, but it is agreed that this inventory is constantly being reconfigured" . going by that fact to around the first supercontinent that is recorded should be Vaalbara that existed between 3.6 to 2.8 billion years ago.
However if in your mistaken stupidity you were refering to civilization, then i am afraid, it will have to be africa/asia going by current knowledge on the subject.
So with that, let me end with the same trite generalization that you made.
American cars.trucks are cool, Japanese cars are very well engineered. European cars are for poseurs who lack both the skill to drive and the common sense to make a sensible purchase.

That's DEAD ON BMW4me4ever...the IS-F looks like it was designed by some punk tuners that just won the lottery...YIKES! How can such a crisp looking car in normal IS configs be made to look that bad? BMW and Audi IS the real comparo here when the new M3 is ready to roll - even with the added weight of Quattro - it'll come down to whether the extra grip evens out the extra lbs....I'm sure in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile the RS4 is toast...On the design front, Bimmer and Audi do such a better job on the tastefulness scale with their performance variants...I have a 2006 Audi A4 S-line with Quattro...and with the S-line kit it looks better than a "standard" A4, not worse like the IS-F vs. a regular guy IS...

Thats not fear, that a statement, a true one.

thats not fear, thats a statement. A true one.

I'm not really sure how these ended up down here, but disregard these comments...

Just on looks alone the Lexus already got his ass spanked!!

That was so dumn, you should look for a cave and crawl back inside.

Don't think so!!

Flozel said: I know and you know (though you won't admit it) that in a short space of time, Lexus will conquer Europe as well as it did the US.


Keep dreaming. This is pure fanboy talk. I hate to take sides but Lexus lacks history compared to the European brands and this is its biggest drawback in a market where image and brand history are very important. Selling a car laden with technology for a "cheap" price won't attract the majority of Europeans.

Look at why Lexus is so successful here. They cater to American values: a lot of car for little money (value-for-money). Sure, this is true in Europe as well, except overthere, they place more emphasis on brand heritage as well.

I LOVE that I'm American. As usual, no one is beating down the doors in other countries to get in, and we can appreciate all thingsin the US no matter what part of the globe it's from, yeah we got it like that. That is why the world will always envy the US and I don't say that in arrogance, its a statement of truth. The US isn't perfect, but far from undesirable.

The M3 is a stunning design study, the best I've seen of the M line. The IS is awesome, but doesn't hold a candle to the M in this arena. The IS looks frumpy. I think the V -Series and Audi RS models are the true contenders in this segment. We will see what the CTS-V will have going for it. Car snobs hate the mention of the CTS-V and M3 in the same sentence..

The IS does not handle poorly. That is a terrible myth and a common figment of Euro fanboys' imaginations around here.

What do you mean how do they compare the two. Lexus has proven to be one of the most innovative car brands in our era! Yes BMW M3 is a great vehicle but the new IS can compete with the likes of BMW M3.

"the real battle is between the F/A-22 fighter and the M3".

I wouldn't count my chickens before they hatch. You should hold off on your prejudice until the verdict is out.

second that! IS totally out of it

Any normal guy out there that is into cars goes for a BMW instead of a lexus. I can also add this: any single girl out there(into cars or not) will go for sure to the guy with the bimmer.

Arent both of them over 3500-3600 lbs??
Neither of them would handle well except at street speed just enough to make ppl that spent 60k for them happy. M3s get putting on hundreds of pounds each generation without adding much mm width to their tires. Front tires are getting narrower compare to the rear tires just so that idiots that bought them won't crash and burn.

Better off using either of these cars getting groceries. Want a real sports car buy a Lotus or a Z06.

will you are an idiot. The Is350 lost to the 330 in pretty much every comparison test. Also, the IS350 is not as fast as the 335. I have not seen a single comparison or article that shows that. Get over yourself and realize that lexus doesnt and willnot compete in any performance division., except on " midnight club", need for speed, or anyother fantasy game on playstation

If you knew about cars you would not have said, the IS handles very poorly. Ford escort handles very poorly and the alike. But the correct saying is, the IS does not have as sporty handling as the 3. Now why Lexus doesn't go after that simple change of sporty handling, that's their business logic. However, everyone knows and agrees that the IS or any other Lexus line compared to its BMW/MB competitor, out runs them all. Each car manufacturer has its own touch and they stick with it. Lexus has excelent quality, reliability and speed. The German counterpart have sporty steering wheel and suspension. Each is a trade mark of that company.
I personally was a German enthusiast before, until all those shitty cars started breaking up left and right. Then when I moved to the Lexus line up, there is not a single car out there that I would trade it in with. This comparison will be very interesting, but remember, speed wise the IS will win, handling wise the 3 will win, so it all depends on the taste of the evaluator, as for which to rank #1 or #2.

Well, some of the members here (SexyLexus, Will, renlex) don't WANT the girl to go for them....

"IS350 was faster than the 330i, and is just as fast as the 335i. The only way the 3-Series comes out on top in every comparison test is the very intangible "handling" (a.k.a. "magic feel")."

I've said this many times...

SPEED ISN'T EVERYTHING.

To counter, the 335i is very well quicker than the IS350. Check your latest road test stats.

But that's irrelevant. What you can't grasp is that HANDLING MATTERS MORE THAN SPEED IN A PERFORMANCE SEDAN. Is it that much of a wonder to you as to why BMWs always win PERFORMANCE tests? They're perfectly balanced. By luxury car standards, the handling is out-of-the-park. They ENGINEER their cars. They just don't stick in a huge engine and a matching transmission. On the contrary, they make their cars as light as possible using the latest weight-saving technologies, and their tried-and-true inline six never fails, at least in the 3 and 5.

Cars can be quite fast, but still suck as performance cars. Look at monstrous vehicles like the Cayenne Turbo S. Scary fast, but it also handles frighteningly. It would tip over if it tried to keep up with an M3 or RS4 through the twisties.

You don't appreciate engineering. Why, is beyond me, Will.

I agree completely with S4cab. History has been very kind to the m3 and from driving and reviews of the new 3-series, its hard to see why it would be any different now. The m3 will be nothing short of epic and a goal for others to try and come close to.

I agree completely with S4cab. History has been very kind to the m3 and from driving and reviews of the new 3-series, its hard to see why it would be any different now. The m3 will be nothing short of epic and a goal for others to try and come close to.

^My hero!

Damnit..wrong spot.I retract the above statement. Oh for a delete button in these forums

Wait for those "intangible" lap times, Will_!!!

please, Lexus' innovation is a mirage that they have painted for American's that don't have the money for the Ultimate Driving Machine, and can be fooled by a car that is noisy and has risky lines.

AE86 you need to change your screen name because you are disgracing a legendary car the all mighty Trueno!!

Kudos for somebody understanding my screen name. Will_ has no idea what an AE86 is.

If you truly appreciate the hatchi roku, you too will understand that the IS-F will not compare in driving dynamics to the new M3.

I am guessing you have not driven an IS?

I am guessing you have not driven an IS? Or if you have, you are comparing its handling to a Camry...

Lexus will beat M3 & RS4 if the suspension is tuned by Lotus. Just check out what they have done for upcoming GT-R.

Lexus IS-F is a good concept but will it be a HIT? i'm not too sure. The M3 clearly has a lot more heritage than the first timer IS-"F" edition. I also like how the new M3 has a growl like no other. It will definitely sound different from the IS-F. In terms of looks hey that is all subjective so i'm not going to even start with it. The M3 is as expected, very stylish with the typical M3 cues to distinguish from the rest.

My opinion on the IS-F: it looks like a tuner car more than a car from factory. Some may like the riced out look but to others it may be a miss. For me I'll have to judge when I see it. The M3 from pictures point of view is already a winner. The interior could have been more exciting and dramatic but i'm sure the performance will more than make up for it.

-Agent63

Yeah, heritage is = performance in your eyes, and the M3's ugly hood looks beautiful too.

Without the ugly hood, the M3 looks as dull as a regular 3 coupe.

The RS4 was worth comparing to the e46 M3 but the e92 will be in a class of its own. The IS350 is one hundred percent joke interms of handling braking and so on. Adding power and tacky aesthetics will only further sour the mix.

I know Lexus advertises all over this site but please leave them out of talk about serious sportscars Autospies.

"Toyota simply has MORE heritage than BMW when it comes to building high performance cars."

I love the garbage that just spews from your mouth.

huh? evo and gt what? Those are performance cars for teenage kids that are trying to re-enact the " midnught club " on their playstation or need for speed. I cant stop laughing ... Hands down that this is the most ridiculous comment ever. I think autospies should post the " top Ten " most ridiculous comments ever .. What are the odds that Ricemaster would win most of them?

You really need to get a grip. Do some reading, and some research. You will see that many Japanese companies emulated German companies in form/function for many years. The attitude of Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Suby is so far from the elitist attitude you hold. I have seen video of the head of Nismo saying his goal was to make Nismo as good as the M Division at BMW. I have read similar statements from other top level execs from major Japanese manufacturers.
If they don't have elitist attitudes then why should you? Learn to appreciate more than just what you know.

Josh

p.s. I am still trying to stomach the looks of the isf. I am sure it will grow on me as all decent design does. I just need to get in tune with its intentions styling wise.

Thats wrong, they were tested in the 90's on several occasions in comparo's. They were both considered sports cars, cost's were comparable, and amenities were as well.

They were also 2 totally different machines.

Josh

I think you're confusing nationalistic stereotypes with automotive characteristics.

First of all, the reigning champ right now is the RS4. The IS-F and M3 are still "concept" cars so they're pretty much the figment of someone's imagination. Consider that Lexus has absolutely zero history producing these types of cars. Additionally, consider that BMW has probably made the M5 worse than the previous M5, the same could be true for the next M3.

I'll have to double check my crystal ball, but I predict the following:

1- The new M3 still reigns supreme in every single comparison test.

2- The IS-F comes in an amazingly close second place in every single comparison test.

3- Owners of the new M3 or IS-F will both be very, very happy.

I predict the RS4 will battle the M3 for 1st and 2nd in all the tests with the IS-F battling it out with the 450hp C63 for 3rd and 4th. Why? Enthusiast magazines prefer manual transmissions and the Lexus and IS don't have them. The RS4 and M3 will be pretty equally matched I believe, the RS4 having four doors will help it in tests where part of the judging involves rear seat room and the M3 will have an edge where size doesn't matter and price is a factor.

sorry, that should have said "the Lexus IS-F and MB C63 won't have manuals"

I love getting deboosted just for mentioning the MB and Lexus won't offer a stick. Sorry kids, not my fault, maybe you should deboost Lexus and MB for it.

Boosted you up.

Too early to predict. Visually I prefer the BMW....the design looks more cohesive, the Lexus looks as if the car was designed and then they attempted to make it look agressive with add on's.

The lack of a manual tranny on the IS-F will "doom" it...
And the need for a 8 speed Auto??
Come on.....just marketing to say...yeah..it has better gas mileage than the M3 or RS4...

No, in fact, AMG isn't. They're easily the fastest in every class, but the handling is well below the standards of their M/RS competition. I admire AMG cars and wouldn't dislike owning one, but they're basically poser-mobiles. The new 6.2L is awesome, though.

I am still laughing at Ricemasters comments. I am amazed he actually could type that without laughing.

2nd that , i am still laughing too

Let's be fair. This is Lexus's first foray into the high performance sedan segment. BMW has been in this segment for a long time so they already have a super strong reputation. On the other hand, Lexus knew it couldn't come up short with the new IS-F(after the failed L-tuned cars before) and had to develop a winner.
It's relatively easy to predict how the BMW will turn out. The hard part is figuring out how the Lexus will be. We all know the current Lexus offerings have the same shortcomings: numb steering, grabby brakes, floaty suspension, etc....
But the fact is, Lexus has a large of amount of customers who PREFERS that kind of feel. So they prefer to develop standard cars with higher performance, but to still compromise by keeping that 'Lexus element' there for their customers. Now, as I understand, the Lexus IS-F was developed strictly for performance and did not compromise to cater to your typical Lexus customer. The IS-F engineers were given the green light to put performance a top priority.
Therefore, I think it's unfair and probably inaccurate in this case to use what we generally think of Lexus as a reference to predict the new IS-F's capability. That's like using a floaty Infiniti I35(now discontinued) to predict the performance of the new all performance oriented Nissan GT-R. Regular Lexus cars are produced to intentionally create less of a performance feel than BMW's to satisfy a significant group of customers who simply do NOT desire the BMW feel.
But this Lexus should be very different. I am more anxious to see just how the performance oriented IS-F will drive than the BMW which will no doubt be exhilarating, but is already known for high performance.

Wow Dave, what a well written logical piece of information. I only wish other autospies contributors would follow your lead.

Josh

the c class Amg has always been behind the M3 and S/RS4, why do think it will change now. MB are straight line rockets but cant come close to BMW or Audi in the handling department.

For me its

1-RS4/M3 until the M3's numbers come out, i am not gonna pick between the 2
2-C63-
3-IS-F- the performance might be up to par with the others, but you have to be 15 to like the design

Sevorbeupstry-Ypou basically tried to correct me with the same thing i said, just in different words. All i said was the C AGM does not handle as well as the Audi or BMW, Am I wrong? NO!

And stop using this "at least over here they do" crap, stop thinking because you live in europe you know more then people in the US.yes american cars companies suck but that doesnt mean we have no clue about cars. When you say shit like that you look like an Arrogant prick

thanks, if you want to talk about how shitty american cars are then fine, i will agree 100%, but this is a car site so its fine, just stop with "the americans are stupid shit", I am an american and i would never think about buying a american or japanese car, i just dont like them.

I am not saying your wrong, there are alot of americans who have no clue, but there are also europeans who have no clue.

Yes, stop stereotyping, please.

It gives me the impression that Europeans are snoots.

I'm not in the mood for your BS.

This is going to be annoying for the next year of these posts, pitting 2 cars that havent even come out against each other in every sort of mock up comparo.

For my waste of time 2 cents tho...Nobody wants a manual transmission anymore. The bulging BMW hood is somehow forgiven by German fanboys, while the IS-F hood was ridiculed. Gotta love that. Same with the side skirts, just as tuner spec'ed out as any IS-F vents.

Go ahead and de-boost and flame on. After this comment, I will desperately try to wait until they actually come out before any more comments on these 2 cars.

"Nobody wants a manual transmission anymore"- speak for yourself. Thats just a stupid comment

Please explain how the Japanese "destroyed" the American automotive industry?

Maybe it's the lack of quality that destroyed us(Americans).

What does my nationality have to do with anything? I drive Japanese cars, and lived outside of the US for 18 years. As for manual trannies, the numbers speak for themselves, they're not selling. Look at the M5, BMW didnt even want a manual, and when forced to put one in to satisfy the few purists, it was slower and less smooth (no more magic feel). How many Ferraris, Astons and Lambos are sold nowadays with manuals??

So grow up, get your head out of the sand, learn to craft an argument based on facts or at least well-reasoned opinions, and cut out the school yard "stupid" and "retard" b.s.

And, damn, I just broke my vow not to post anymore on this freakin topic until the cars come out. You people bring out the worst in me.

I'm not usually biased about any brand but with this stupid comparison i am TOTALLY BIASED.Compare the new M3 with the RS4...not with a Lexus.Lexus simply doesen't have the experience to play with the big fellas.

100% agree

"stupid Americans"

...from a European...

*shocked*

Yeah, we live for the future and embrace new things. EU lives in the past and holds on to the good old days when people payed attention to Europe. Stop hating on America its completly irrevelant to the topic.

NOW you're pissing me off.

I agree with you in cars, but your political views are horrendous.

Get a life. Maybe travel to America?

You probably can't afford it.

If you're going to talk about American ignorance and stupidity, at least spell Caucasian right.

Im with you with reguards to this guy. I dont understand why Europeans are so ethnocentric. They walk around with their chins up high and act like their shi* doesn't stink.

"Now that they have both been announced, it looks like a battle of epic proportions is being planned with the winner gaining the ultimate prize...The ability to brag that they truly make the ULTIMATE driving machine."

Agent001- your crazy, the IS-F is not even close, and why with every M3 post do you only compare the IS-F and not the RS4. Who ever wins the battle between the M3 and RS4 will have "The ability to brag that they truly make the ULTIMATE driving machine." The IS-F will be a distant 3rd or 4th with the C63 amg.
You act like there's only 2 cars in this class, when the only one with real numbers is the RS4, and you never mention it.

I agree, its incredible how a car as brilliant as the RS4 can be totally disregarded when it is currently the class of the field, and likely will remain...

In the immortal words of JC...the new M3 will have to “come with it’s own moon” to be better than the RS4...

As for the IS-F; it lacks subtlety; and that bulging hood is just butt ugly...

The IS-F and the M3 are both new car thats why they are being compared. Even thought the IS-F dosen't stant a chance.

Saying Lexus "simply doesn't have the experience" is stupid. Of course they don't. Name the previous Lexus performance models?

These types of threads are unbearable! Literally 5-10 BMW-fanatics claiming superiority on two cars that aren't even out yet, through endless near-satirical statements with incorrect spelling left and right.

I think it's amazing that the IS-F is even here. a Japanese luxury brand no older than most college graduates, known for their strictly-luxury-oriented cars, now coming out with a high-performance compact sedan with 400+ horsepower. Many say it can't be done, just as they said Lexus would never be successful.

Of course the IS-F will lose every comparison test, and the ones that it will win, will be disregarded and attacked as not a "viable auto enthusiast source" and blah blah. The simple fact that the IS-F will wear a Lexus badge and not a German one means that it has 10 times as many hurdles to jump through in the very selective, very biased, very opinionated, very nationalistic automotive community. The only measurement for success for the IS-F will be how it stacks up against the M3. Who in their right mind honestly believes that BMW-loving Car and Driver will rank a Lexus fresh out of the metalwork over the "legendary" M3? This is something that we all have to come to terms with. I am not looking for the IS-F to top any comparison. That will not be the measurement of its worth for me. What will be is how the actual customers of the car respond to it, as is the case for all Lexus cars. Lexus understands its customers very well, and that's what Lexus patrons love about the brand. The IS-F is definitely a step to the left for the brand, but Lexus would not have even attempted this project if they did not believe that they would gain a great customer following.

All in all, prediction and speculation is meaningless.

The BMW M3 is the clear winner just on looks alone.

The current champ is the RS4.

this is true and by the time they actually come out we might be hearing news on a new B8 RS4.

I love both these cars equally, but my LUST for the M3 is much greater than the LEXUS. I just want to bend it over and stick it in it's quad exhaust!

But There may be a new cat in town soon! C63 anyone?

Until the comparos are actually made and measured, right now this is all talk and speculation.

Let's see what the test numbers say 12 months from now.

The M3 is a legend.You CANNOT build a competitor just buy popping your fingers.Yes,it'a start but having similar HP doesen't mean that it's better or even close.It's the driving dynamics a chapter where i think we all agree that the bimmer wins all the time.Every time i see a bimmer,especially a M-modell the result is:Stunning driving dynamics,handling,brakes and ENGINE.

Since everyone is so seriously debating the performance of future vehicles, I have to say that the 2015 Infiniti J50 will blow everything else out of the water.

Then, in 2018 the Lexus ISF will have a gasoline/wheatgrass hybrid that will do a 3.5 second dash to 60 MPH.

For the 2022 model year BMW will only offer the M3 in one color, electric pink. It will still be labeled the "Car of the Year" by most car magazines.

LOL I'm getting a 2035 RS4. It goes from 0-400mph in 1.7 seconds... the 10,000hp Bugatti Veyron of that time will be able to make 500mph in half that time.

Acceleration: IS-F with 450+hp, 380+lb.ft will be faster even it may weight 200lbs heavier.

MPG: IS-F no gas guzzling tax, at least 5mpg better.
Transmission: IS-F 8 sp with the segment’s fastest paddle-shift gear change > BMW's sucking SMG.

Handling: unknown, but you will be shocked if Lexus uses stiffer springs than BMW.

wher are you getting 450+HP, and the 8 speed blows, stop making excuses why they didnt use a manual

Do some research about the advanced IS-F' 5.0L v8 engine, you will see those are reasonable numbers.

Auto gets better performance. The fastest F1 gear shift time is 0.05s, 0.1s for IS-F 8 sp.

The little bump on the new M3 looks better than the big bump on the hood of the IS-F.

The M3's hood bump is similar to the previous E46's M3 hood bump.

The IS-F hood bumb just reminds me of a humpback whale's head.

the M3 makes the somewhat aggressive looking IS-F look like a rice burning cartoon character when they're side by side.

the M3 makes the somewhat aggressive looking IS-F look like a rice burning cartoon character when they're side by side.

Lexus sucks

The only reason they get so much attention on here is because Lexus pays this site. Everyone knows Toyota lacks the ability to create a true performance car.

Is that why this site seems to be flooded with whiny Euro-only car fans? Trying to even up the score or something?

Saying something like that is just as bad as a Lexus fan saying BMW wins comparison tests because they advertise in the magazines.

I'd say you should check out Consumer Reports for an unbiased and commercial free source of automotive information, but German-only-brand-whore-ignorant-fools such as yourself don't seem to be to fond of what they write. Oh well.

"Is that why this site seems to be flooded with whiny Euro-only car fans? Trying to even up the score or something?"

Anthony, please, spare me.

There seems to be a never-ended stream of Lexus fans EVERY DAY. None of them have good grammar except about three, and that's out of fifty. They exclaim the beauty of all Lexus models in every post, regardless of how they actually appear.

AND THEY SAY THE DUMBEST THINGS BASED ON NO INFORMATION AT ALL.

That's the difference.

They say, "LEXUS WILL CATCH ON IN EUROPE BECAUSE ITS IN US NOW HERE" and "lexus makes the most Beautiful car in World."

I wish the site resembled its former self, about four years ago. I was there all the way back. Will, was, too. So were a few others, but some of them got booted by 001. The flame wars were ocassional and indulgent, and I enjoyed the site.

Now I hate it, but I'm just addicted to it.

Lexus has never made a true hard-edged, beat you up, track-oriented sportscar and I am not convinced they ever will. BMW has some made brutal cars for a long time now. I would be shocked if the IS-F will be competitive in any way other than engine power.

Prepare to be shocked then...

for those idiots that love the lexus.... Do you know HOW LONG BMW has been in MOTORSPORTS????????
DO you think some "lexus soda can" can denounce all the hard work and experience of BMW's legendary track performance? LOL. Not even Mercedes Benz can topple BMW in that respect, although they are a lot closer than "lexus" will EVER get!!!

Perfectly said.Couldn't have said it better myself.

Its the other way round, everybody can fight and squirm for this and that, but NO BRAND will ever topple the almighty king, MERCEDES...

the m3 will come out with the win due to performance and design. IS looks like a rice rocket

the m3 will come out with the win due to performance and design. IS looks like a rice rocket

the m3 will come out with the win due to performance and design. IS looks like a rice rocket

It used to be that 0-60, quarter-mile, and torque ratings/tests were the measure of a real sports car. Lexus delivers on all that and now its all about "handling." Why is this? Because as other manufacturers have bested the best from BMW, their marketing departments have switched the focus. Who says Lexus is #1 in marketing? I disagree. What other brand can sell so many products based off the sole idea that their products can take an unrealistic corner faster than a rollercoaster?

Will, the only country that has been focused on those numbers is the US. Even in the US there were sports car clubs buying the cars which focused on a complete package. Not just power, not just handling, but the overall 'feel'. I think I like everyone else here, is interested to know the feel of the new isf. I don't assume it wont handle well, I just wait until I read decent review, or have driven in myself.

Josh

Since Lexus started in 1989, it has always been the underdog. BMW simply dominates and this super sedan class is no exception. It's easy to say BMW will be the best.
But you also have to remember that when Lexus was about to launch in 1989, most people couldn't even comprehend the very idea of a Japanese luxury sedan, much less go and purchase one. Furthermore, the big boys then like Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, etc all thought Lexus would turn out to be a joke. Even then the Volvo chairman didn't think Lexus would amount to anything. Eighteen years later, Lexus has come a very long way, and is finally now starting to enter the higher performance market.
It's easy to quickly say that the BMW M3 is the best, but let's not rule out the new IS-F so soon........

WRONG. Mercedes' motorsport history is much longer than that of BMW. Mercedes has equally had a lot of success in motorsport. A lot of the motorsport technology and innovation we have today comes from Mercedes-Benz.


WHAT? What are you smoking over there?? MUCH LONGER?????
So longer means better?
Have you heard of a car called the M3? Does MB have competition for that? The answer is NOOOOOOO!
Oh and, look out for Formula 1 this year. Mclaren is lucky to have Alonso. BMW will be on its doorstep this year, only in its 2nd year at that. Ha

My, hasn’t this dialogue disintegrated into the intellectual cacophony that is ad hominem.
Do I believe that those intending to purchase the M3 will seriously consider the Lexus instead? No, I don’t.
Come now really, all Americans are stupid? I happen to have gone to school with a kid when I was a freshman who was a senior in college and in lots of honors classes and advanced programs: and also happened to be 12 years old. The rumor around campus is that he had the highest IQ of anyone who had taken the Stanford-Binet in the last 10 years. This is probably right; his advancement demonstrates an IQ between 200 and 208 or so. I have actually already said this one here: I know I run out of stories quickly. Stupid: far from it. Do Americans have a sense of entitlement and are whiners: probably.

Whiners. Word :)

These BMW goons are a joke. They'll never let their head up from in between their legs. In their world, only BMW is capable of making a performance car, and then call themselves "automobile enthusiasts." It doesn't get more ignorant than that.

When the latest RS4 came out, these fools swore on the Bible that it wouldn't topple the M3, and that nobody would take it seriously. Surprise surprise the RS4 kicked the M3's ass.

It's nothing short of comical that this same crowd is now trying to shoot down the IS-F. I find it disappointing that so many are willing to sacrifice their sanity and respect just to insult Lexus out of insecurity. As I just read somewhere above, there's nothing wrong with questioning blanketed speculation about the IS-F taking over this segment, but it is equally as foolish to make more blanketed statements about the IS-F being a piece of crap.

relax. Take a breath. First off, the previous M3 and the current RS4 weren't even competitors. I know Audi fans like to pretend they were just so you can talk about spanking the M3 but come on. Let's be fair here, the M3 is a six year old model and was $55k. The RS4 is brand new and $70k. The M3 was a benchmark and Audi wanted to step above and beyond the old M3 to have a car that would be viable for a while. That makes sense, kudos to Audi. But it's ridiculous to compare the two. Now it's BMW's turn to revamp the M3, and they have Audi to benchmark. That makes sense, kudos to BMW. The new M3 AND the RS4 are both awesome vehicles (admittedly I'm guessing on the M3). They can mutually co-exist. And when BWM releases the M3 sedan next year and Audi has the RS5 coupe, we'll have four of the finest automobiles play with and make comparisons that actually MAKE SENSE.

anthony, you are a COMPLETE moron. Yeah, swallow that.
RS4 came out MUCH later. Of course it HAS TO BE faster, otherwise it would be a complete FAILURE on Audi's side. Now, that the M3 has a V8. Oh God!!!! Audi will be in the dust once again. You see, Anthony, when it comes to BMW's performance, eVERYONE always plays CATCH-UP to them. They set the trend and everyone else tries to follow it. That history, my friend, its been proven. OK NOw you can breathe!!

Check yourself before you call someone a moron, you transsexual. I'm such a moron, yet you and your fellow clown posse aren't when you were on this site making stupid assumptions about how the "RS4 will be no match for the M3, even if it does have a V8." You kids swore up and down that the RS4 would be just a "nose-heavy pig" and all your other bullshit comments.

Nobody plays "catch-up" to BMW. Other manufacturers just take different routes than the one-track-minded BMW. Mercedes, Audi, and even now Lexus have all realized that the true testament to a great machine is the perfect balance of road AND track performance. BMWs only perform so "magically" on closed-circuit driving. Let's see what your "magic feel" does for you on the freeway.... absolutely nothing.

razzy calm your horses buddy, the M3 will be an amazing car, no doubt , but to say just because it has a V8 now that "Audi will be in the dust once again" is a premature idiotic comment. A true car enthusiast would see that and not say crap like that.

The old M3 was faster then the B6 S4 in a straight line, but the S4 was faster on the track, so what catch up are you talking about?

Before you make bold ass statements like that why not wait for the car to actually come out and see what it can do, unless you work for BMW and know the real numbers , please stop.

To be fair with both brands, I would rate or judge the two cars by look and performance. As for a look hand down the Lexus IS-F is mean and more aggressive looking than the 3 Series. As for the performance wise, I cannot tell or judge because Lexus has improve alot. Both of this car is not even out yet so how can one say which is better.

To be fair with both brands, I would rate or judge the two cars by look and performance. As for a look hand down the Lexus IS-F is mean and more aggressive looking than the 3 Series. As for the performance wise, I cannot tell or judge because Lexus has improve alot. Both of this car is not even out yet so how can one say which is better.

lol. i really enjoy the comparisons and the such strong positions when neither car is even out yet.

its a silly topic

From look alone the I would rate the Lexus IS-F and Audi RS4 for 1st, 2rd BMW M3 because it is very soft looking. The new M3 look like it was made for a chic, you know a "gal" as an girl, know what I what mean. What bunch freaking dweeb, both of the cars is not even out yet.

The Lexus just looks like yet another japanesy car with big wheels....it does nothing for me. The M3 is a work of art and gets my vote!

Love the people acting as if they work for BMW and designed the damn thing.

Yes, Lexus does have their work cut out for them in hoping to compete against the M3, but I'm sure the people at Lexus know that.

Relax people. Relax. Both cars will be awesome!

The brand spankin' new BMW M3 will run circles around the Lexus IS-Failure.

Sorry Toy-Boys, I only speak the truth!

001, I don't think the IS-F is even in contention.

Why didn't you make an article like this when the vastly better RS4 came out?

BIAS.

It's plain and easy to see. You get your free GS450h and all the sudden you start trumpeting how the IS-F will be the best competitor to the M3.

If the other Lexus models are any indication, it won't be up-to-par when you are looking for the ultimate DRIVING machine. It will be fast... that's a given. But the handling will suck and it only comes with the lethargic automatic transmission.

All the Lexus fans are going to say, "THIS IS DIFFERENT. LEXUS CAN DO ANYTHING. THIS IS A PERFORMANCE SEDAN." I'll just say, "Look at the IS and GS. Those are 'performance' sedans, too, right? Well, neither has had handling that even matches their MB counterparts, let alone BMW and Audi."

I'm a bit sick.

The M3 will be the best, of course. The RS4 will be close, and there's a possibility of the IS-F being better than the C63, but the possibility of either being better than the RS4/M3 is quite bleak.

I know I'm going to get flamed to -600 in ten minutes, but I couldn't care less. This is my opinion, my prediction. I will stand by it.

The only thing i dont agree with is "The M3 will be the best, of course. The RS4 will be close, "

I am not saying it wont be but let it come out first before we predict anything, Its gonna take a great M3 to beat the RS4. Then there is the design of the car, I personally would take the RS4 over the M3 on looks alone. I wouldnt even consider the IS-F or C63.

"the IS 350 is flat out better, faster, and handles better then any A4 that doesn't have a S or RS in place of A. "

I like the IS350, but you just have no idea what you're talking about.

Have you even driven an A4? The B7. Not some 1997 A4 2.8 quattro.

The Lexus may be faster and may even prove handle better but why would we compare BMW to an ugly rice rocket? I must be missing something.

who is running scared? You think that some rice rocket cereal box car from the fast and the furious has us running scared?! I guess as a lexus fan you have to have that mentality: "well i want it to be true so, um, let’s see, I'll just make it up!" It makes sense that you think that way, you sort of have to think that Lexus makes a car that runs in the German league.

I don't even know why that put that "Ultra New BMW M3 on this website. This new M3 is ugly and an embrass to the last M3 gen. The new M3 look very soft, like it was made for a "gal" you know as an girl;) I guess German would buy anything from BMW as long as it has a BMW logo on it. I bet you if any of this German fanboy visit a foreign country where they see a BMW logo on "Donkey" as a Jackass, they probably says, it could 0-60 in 3.1 sec.

Wake up!....stop dreaming, the RS4 is current the king in this segment. The Lexus IS-F will have their fair of a shot for the throne at the RS4 like the M3. Who will come first place, how the heck am I suppose to know?; I'm not a fortune teller. Just look alone this M3 is ugly when compare to the Lexus IS-F and RS4.

M3 or ISF350? Well, we all know that Lexus strives to be a company that resembles BMW and Mercedes-Benz. They have had success copying the German companies' innovative and progressive minds. Lexus has done this quite well, but are from competing. The fact of the matter is that BMW knows how to build a car that is thrilling to drive, comfortable to ride in, and pleasing to look at. Lexus knows how to fool customers into thinking that they have achieved this, and sometimes they even get one out of the three, but it has always been a fact that BMW simply builds a much better car. I believe that this fact will remain a fact in the future, and I believe that when each of the cars are finally compared, we will yet again see the BMW absolutely "spank" the ISF.

Wow, 001. You posted this about twelve hours ago... and it already has over 180 comments.

You know how to stir the site like noone else.

lets face it, anything with lexus or toyo always has mass responses. rs4 is sweet but when these two cars come out, no one is gonna be talking about the rs4, just like how nobody really is now. if there was no lexus, everybody would be bashing audi.

sewingmachine, didn't you notice about half the posters on this page saying that the RS4 is the M3's true competition?

sewing- when both these come out everyone will be talking about the RS4 , because every comparision test will include the RS4. Stop with your bullshit bashing, the RS4 is going to blow the IS-F away, now the M3 is a different story, we will have to wait and see between the M3 and RS4, either way the lexus is a joke

And yet, the S6 has won two out of three articles comparing it to the M5 and E63 AMG, and came in second in the third one.

Power doesn't matter that much, does it?

The S4 has beaten the M3 on numerous occasions, also. As well as the CTS-V, C55 AMG and C32 AMG.

"Oh yeah, well my d*ck is bigger than yours!"

Get a hold of yourselves people. I'm sure both cars will please their fans and sway no one on this board.

Kudos to Lexus for braving into this new segment.
Kudos to BMW/Audi for your continual persuit of automotive excelence.
Kudos to Mercedes for keeping quiet! (Even though they'll probably have a C63 out before either of these cars given the way AMG likes to do things)

"Oh yeah, well my d*ck is bigger than yours!"

Get a hold of yourselves people. I'm sure both cars will please their fans and sway no one on this board.

Kudos to Lexus for braving into this new segment.
Kudos to BMW/Audi for your continual pursuit of automotive excellence.
Kudos to Mercedes for keeping quiet! (Even though they'll probably have a C63 out before either of these cars given the way AMG likes to do things)

dude, there is no middle ground, ur either left or right period! or until u get off the computer and back to reality.

You people that say that the IS-F will not handle well are a bunch of morons,first of all you people have not driven the IS-F or the M3,second is this is a performance car overrall,the IS-F like the M3 has been tested at the Nurburgring!!

As if those who are saying that the IS-F WILL handle well aren't?!

We know nothing! Not even the true horsepower!

How can you be any more sure?

Will the IS-F come with the gold trim/emblem package? How about a vinyl roof?

You are truely a moron,poor excuse for sarcasm!!

My vote goes to the Bimmer, just because BMW has made the best sports sedan forever and Lexus has just jumped into this type of car. Toyota never seems to get it right the first time because this has not been their focus.

You guys say that Lexus are not for performance vehicles,but I bet most you people don't even come close to how I drive my
"Lexus SC300 TT",I drift,drag race,time attack and auto cross!!So tell me the truth,do you guys do any of those things,or do you just drive your Ultimate driving machine with a baby seat in the back from home to work and back??

Mistype:
You guys say that Lexus are not performance vehicles ,but I bet most you people don't even come close to how I drive my
"Lexus SC300 TT",I drift,drag race,time attack and auto cross!!So tell me the truth,do you guys do any of those things,or do you just drive your Ultimate driving machine with a baby seat in the back from home to work and back??

Did you do a swap on that SC? Got pics? I always appreciate a swapped SC.

Your comments about motorsports seesm to miss an important point. If you want to claim that most BMW owners on this site don't use there cars what they are made for, then you have to claim the same thing about the Lexus owners. As for me I will do whatever the hell I want with my BMW. Just so happens that I use it for its purpose.

Josh

Lexus wrote:"I don't even know why that put that "Ultra New BMW M3 on this website. This new M3 is ugly and an embrass to the last M3 gen. The new M3 look very soft, like it was made for a "gal" you know as an girl;) I guess German would buy anything from BMW as long as it has a BMW logo on it. I bet you if any of this German fanboy visit a foreign country where they see a BMW logo on "Donkey" as a Jackass, they probably says, it could 0-60 in 3.1 sec.

Wake up!....stop dreaming, the RS4 is current the king in this segment. The Lexus IS-F will have their fair of a shot for the throne at the RS4 like the M3. Who will come first place, how the heck am I suppose to know?; I'm not a fortune teller. Just look alone this M3 is ugly when compare to the Lexus IS-F and RS4."

--------------

I'm sorry to give you a hard time but your rubbish comments continue to pour out of your mouth. First off to say the new M3 is very feminine is quite funny. Just remember Lexus has the SC430 which is much more feminine than that of the new M3 you're talking about. Another thing is, it's not like Lexus has come out with a proper sports car yet so you shouldn't talk.

Your comment in regards to people will buy anything with a BMW badge. You think Lexus buyers don't consider a Lexus car because it has an L logo on it? be real. You know very well that if the IS had a Toyota badging on it, it won't seem like a 'luxury' car anymore. Another thing is at least BMW wouldn't have any issues against them in terms of 'rebadging'. BMW is BMW. Lexus is technically Toyota don't forget that.

HOWEVER, I do agree with you on the looks of the M3. It does not look as rugged as the previous generation. However I shall judge when I see it in person. Same goes for the IS-F.

-Agent63

people need to take off their colored goggles to appreciate a car for what it is. both cars are nice. does anyone doubt that the is-f will not sell even if the m3 turns out to be the "most bestest car ever??"

people also forget the era where japanese cars were dominating the market right before the launch of the e46 m3 at least in the us market. how many 300z, supras, rx-7s, or nsxs were sold? where were all the eyes of the world turned? after us regulations loosened and allowed its market to receive the same hp as europe, european car market caught on fire again.

just wait. the japanese market will shine again with cars like the skyline, gt-f and ascc. this is a natural progession of the market. nothing stays on top forever, not even rossi or schumacher.

Here's a new concept...why don't you, <put your name here>, just buy the car that feels good to you. Stop trying to convince the whole f*&*ing world that you know so much more about cars that you, <put your name here>, are qualified to dictate what everyone else in the world should be driving. Not for nothing...at the end of the day...your the one making the car and insurance payments. Who gives a rats ass what the other guy thinks! Take it to the track instead of trying to settle it in some friggin forum if it's that important!

agent63, the last comment that I made for the BMW M3 was made intention to make the German fanboy mad. Because two post before that I say we "CANNOT" really judge both vechicles because it not out yet. But all German fanboys keep putting the Lexus IS-F down, I throw one back at them. You should know me better by now, alot time I say to make the German mad. So they will know how I feel when they say the same thing about the Lexus IS-F. I say many thing, but that "NOT" mean I'm right, but most the time I'm am. So do not take personally.

Lexus

Agent63, actually this where have to disagree with you that Lexus a rebadge Toyota. Starting with 2006 Lexus all use their own platform. They don't share anything with Toyota anymore like VW, Audi and Lambo. Lexus is a Lexus.

Like says two post previous to that we cannot accurate judge both vechicle because they are "NOT" even out yet.

And like i've said before. I will judge when they both come out. I don't doubt they are true performers either. I know that they both will be fast. As for design it's up to the person. Just don't put down the M3 so quick and jump on the Lexus band wagon before it comes out.

These cars no longer exist in the Toyota line up ever since the L-Finess Lexus came out,so please stop using that rebadge excuse because it's getting old!!!Also don't forget that most brands platform share,or rebadge not only Toyota!!!

Starting with the bottom of the lineup...

ES: Camry platform

RX: Highlander platform

GX: 4Runner platform

LX: LC platform

And we all know that the next LX will be based on the Land Cruiser, so there's no debating that one.

THE M3 IS AWESOME!

Great. 200+ comments about the M3 vs IS-F and now all of a sudden we hear some bashing against the RS4 and the upcoming C63 AMG. I "love" this site.

RS4 and the C63 are both sedans. It IS funny that some bashing is going on. It's funny that the M3 and the IS-F is even in comparison to begin with.

I would take either the RS4 or the C63 hands down. It's had more years behind them in building the special models. The IS-F is still too fresh. It has to be out on the market first and driven for a year at least to get some feedback from consumers.

M3 is against RS4 and RS5 Coupe cause first M3 will be coupe so do not compare to RS4...when M3 saloon will be released than you can compare to RS4 saloon and when M3 CC will come than compare it to the RS5 cabrio...that's the way the cars has to be compared!And the other thing who is the idiot who compare S6 with M5?S6 is compared to 550i and RS6 to M5, like S5 coupe to 335i Coupe not with the new M3 coupe...offf..i hope you all know to compare the cars...
and the other thing the new M3 coupe rival will have more than 440HP and the new RS6 more than 550HP...ohh BMW i just wait to die and see how audi kicks u off!!!!

"And the other thing who is the idiot who compare S6 with M5?S6 is compared to 550i and RS6 to M5..."

I'll agree that the S4 isn't quite an M3 competitor but in-between the 335i and M3, but the S6 has beaten the M5 on two occasions, and the E63 AMG on three.

Well, I will say exactly what Im thinking.

The M3 is MADE to be the king in this segment. Im quite sure BMW did their best to make it the benchmark again and to take back the title from the RS4. Lexus was brave enough to try and compete, but to beat the benchmark? Thats hard to believe. A performace sedan is not a sedan with a big engine that has loads of HP. Its a sedan that can go fast and be driven at a racing circuit. I dont think lexus knows about that. Thats why they claim the GS-IS to be a performance sedan while it only has a powerful engine with average handling. On the other hand, the M3 is made for the track! It was designed to eat the corners! We will have to wait for the specs before the final judgement but Lexus has a poor chance of touching the mighty M3. I cant wait till the M3, RS4, C63 and IS-F are compared together. As for now, the M3 is king (based on reputation and looks).

I agree, BMW have their site's taking the title from the RS4 which is currently the benchmark to beat (although there'll be a new RS4 take year when the new A4 launches this Sept). I'm pretty sure the new M3 will be king when it first arrives, then it'll be up to Audi to do the same when the new RS4 launches. Like all M3s in the past, this will be a great all-rounder from BMW. Good to see that Lexus are jumping in on this segment but I don't think the current Chassis on the new IS will be able to compete with BMW's or Audi. Power isn't everything but at least Lexus are making a good start and no doubt be in there for the longterm.

Look how many people are scared now that lexus has more power it's a shame BMW sucks ass

What?

How do you know the IS-F has more power?

They're both about 400hp, and actually, M3 will probably have closer to 420.

If you're talking about Lexus as a BRAND being more powerful than BMW, you'll be laughed off the site. BMW is the world's #1 premium brand, and also the richest. Don't talk to me about Toyota profits- compare apples to oranges. BMW is richer and more profitable than Lexus.

Look how many people are scared now that lexus has more power it's a shame BMW sucks ass

Look how many people are scared now that lexus has more power it's a shame BMW sucks ass

A car having more power doesn't mean it can distribute those horsepower around to make it an all around great car.

A Porsche for example, it is rear engined and their overall great handling cars. They manage to distribute the weight to power ratio that well.

This is stupid. What will all this retarded arguing solve? We still have the BMW-fanatics claiming that the yet-to-be-released M3 will always be the king of this segment, the wishy-washy Audi guys touting about the RS4 being king, the few Mercedes guys saying give the C63 a chance, and all of them attacking the IS-F.

You expected otherwise?

From civilized, rational, non-insecure people, yes.

The ///M3 is a motoring icon.

Enthusiasts gravitate to it the same way a 4-year old would to Santa Claus.

It represents the epitome of a true driver’s car that's equally at home in the road or track.

While some cars in this segment started out as a sedan/coupe, and then tried to be sporty, the M3 started out as a race car equipped with just enough touches of civility that qualify it as a daily driver. No one even comes close to striking that almost perfect balance between ultra-sport and everyday drivability.

It’s very essence is derived from a racing pedigree that Lexus can only dream about. The M3 was already dominating racetracks and roads even before Lexus was an itch in Toyota's pants.

It's fair to say that in its 20-year history there has never been a bad iteration of this racy, lightweight coupe from the BMW Motorsport Division.

I expect nothing less than this latest version to uphold a very high standard of excellence in performance, dynamic looks and technology.

^^ well said. ^^

true. reason the m3 also makes all the wannabes flock to it as well. even when they have no clue what it really is about.

BMW M3, the clear winner.

Toyoya IS-F is a kids car.

I think the only thing lexus will be the M3 in.. is maybe having a better Nav/sound system... other than that.... M3 will own it on the track and street...

I think the only thing lexus will be the M3 in.. is maybe having a better Nav/sound system... other than that.... M3 will own it on the track and street...

I think the only thing lexus will be the M3 in.. is maybe having a better Nav/sound system... other than that.... M3 will own it on the track and street...

I think the only thing lexus will be the M3 in.. is maybe having a better Nav/sound system... other than that.... M3 will own it on the track and street...

I'm not impressed by how the M3 concept looks IMHO. I wish it looks a little more aggressive, more flair. Is Lexus coming out with a coupe IS? They should. My opinion is purely based on looks alone.

I know the article is not about Audi. But I had to say this. While Lexus has done a good job with IS-F the BMW M3 is just to good. Hands down the M3 will win this fight. It's the Audi RS4 that the M3 has to dethrone. If any car can put the RS4 in it's place it's the BMW M3.

agree , The IS-F is a little over-the-top for me, Butit is going to be a great car.

Its going to be hard to top the RS4, but if any car can do it , its the M3.These cars are gonna be so close its gonna come down to brand loyalty, if you like Audi like me, you get the S5/RS5?/RS4, if you like BMW the M3 and lexus the IS-F

Imagine how many comments there will be when the cars actually are out.

Imagine how many people posting here will actually purchase an ISF or M3, let alone ride in one.

Imagine this website without all the bickering.

I actually believe there will be LESS comments when we know the statistics.

Think about it. In this thread, we can speculate all we want.

The Lexus fans are able to say "THE ISF WILL BE THE BEST-HANDLING CAR EVER" and get away with it. The BMW camp can trumpet the M3's "4.0 0-60" and get away with it.

When the numbers are out, at least ONE of the sides will be disappointed, and they'll back off and shut their mouths.

it seems that lexus doesn't think it has an M3 beater on its hands. i just read the press release about the IS-F on their site and here's a quote from the head of lexus:

“The intent of creating the IS-F was not to be a competitor to other performance-sport sedans,” said Carter. “Rather, the goal was to create a true performance sedan in a uniquely Lexus way.’”

he even admitted that they don't make performance cars yet:

“Lexus has long been perceived as the maker of mainstream luxury vehicles, but the unveiling of the IS-F and LF-A not only changes this perception, it also introduces a new Lexus marque,” said Bob Carter, Lexus Division group vice president and general manager.

C'mon guys this is not a good comparison. I know others have said this, but it's true: M3 vs. RS4 is the real match up here.

Relative to that, I've got my money on the M3. In terms of design it's not even a question, but the track times will be interesting.

Regardless, as soon as my wife's X5 comes in in a fews months, the order will be made.

The Lexus IS-F is going to gave the M3 and the RS4 the run for their money. It would be really funny if Lexus decided to put 500 hp in this Lexus IS-F. I would really like to see the Lexus IS-F beat the BMW M3 and the RS4.

C63 over both, because the IS-F look like a honda civic and the M3 has 2 door.

i think mercedes will do a c class that competes with the m3 because it it a coupe and the clk is more powerful than the m3 i dont know we have to wait to see....

The final argument will be that Mercedes and BMW have both been in the motor sports business for how many years now? Lexus hasn't come out with a proper sports car EVER. Not saying the IS-F is not capable of performing but is it better than those of the MB and BMW that is yet to be known.

Just remember a lot of the technology you see in cars today first came from Mercedes first so all you Lexus fans who want to say you guys are true innovators you are totally wrong on that. It's facts not my opinion. You would be surprised on how much contribution Mercedes has made in the auto industry in the last century. BMW itself dates back to what 1929 at least and has come out with some great performers as well so credit must be given where credit is due.

To say the IS-F is going to be a better car than the mighty M3 is stupid. To say that Lexus is the best brand that's just stupid as well.

Keep in mind that Lexus even though they have come a long ways to making good cars that they still are the luxury brand of Toyota. Mercedes and BMW didn't have the luxury of having a parent company to give them a boost.

In conclusion, wait till the IS-F comes out before saying it is better than the M3. After all, your statements are based on your taste of car, which is what you see in the photos and also the numbers that are released to the fans. It doesn't necessarily mean it will beat an the M3: (a car with much more years behind them than the Toyota Altezza which came out in around 1997.5-1998 in the JDM and later re badged as a Lexus for the US Market as an 2001 model.)

-Agent63

*****You Lexus nutheads are true loyalists and I respect that but remember the history of Lexus and respect the German's for their long history.

true that lexus is the luxury version of toyota and toyota has a very long racing history. lol.

I find it laughable that people cannot seem to let this go. What's there to be upset about? The German fans are always going to believe that their cars are blessed by God, and that Lexus is a nobody. They have to restate it every other comment to make themselves feel worthy.

"Lexus is nothing" is like a prayer to a German fan. It affirms their "religious belief" that Lexus cannot build a car comparable to a German one.

"The WAR to settle the SCORE? Who will win? Lexus IS-F or BMW M3?"

Takes the cake as the most ridiculous title ever on Autospies.


Anthony, I feel that you are giving European car fans a bad wrap.

My personal opinion is that people who love European cars buy cars based purely on an emotional stand-point, so cars they like usually create an emotional connection resulting in affection.

However, often Lexus does not achieve these connections. They aren't styled by flamboyant Italians or talented but disciplined Germans, and so when these certain German fans try to express their opinion of Lexus, they simply say 'Lexus isn't as good' as [insert loved brand here] because they don't ever delve into the emotional connections they make with automobiles, therefore never express it.

I am sure that if many European car fans -and Japanese/American car fans for that matter- were to say: "The new IS-F doesn't do anything for me I'm sorry", many of these 200+ comment threads would never materialise.


Sound like a load of crock to you? Fine, but may I ask you to get off your high horse.

You've got some nerve to talk about every other brand in the world having "emotions" EXCEPT Lexus, and then tell someone to "get off their high horse."

I want to know how you seem to know 100% that there is no Lexus customer who gets emotionally attached to their car? Have you learned nothing from the various Lexus fans on this site?

Well blow me down if I ever said that in my post!

Is-F - Brand new... Heavy ... 8speed tras... weird styling.. 4 doors.... 5.0 v8.. from Where??? ... 8spd trans!! why!!

M3 - Build on Sucess ... Carbon Fiber roof ... V8 made from the V10 right out of the fast as hell M6... 6spd man and Clutchless SMG (prob) ....


to sum it up... Is350 gets smoked by a 335i ... coupe and sedan ....

oh and who wants to pay to have that 5.0 lt v8 Serviced... not me!

Before opening your big mouth, you should do some research on the IS-F's technique advanced powertrain.

From Lexus PR:

5.0 LITRE V8 PETROL ENGINE

The IS-F’s new, 2UR-GSE 5.0 litre V8 engine combines all the
precision engineering and technological sophistication of the
LS 600h’s renowned 5.0 litre powerplant -from which it is derivedwith
a range of specific, sports tuning enhancements designed to
realise ultra-high performance appropriate to the new Lexus F Sports
marque without compromise to the brand’s legendary engine
refinement and durability.

Over 300kW/400DiN hp and 500Nm/370lb.ft of torque.

The new 5.0L unit features a D-4S stoichiometric direct injection system, the
world’s only high compression ratio injection system to adopt two injectors
per cylinder. The system combines the strengths of both direct and port
injection, realizing optimum engine efficiency throughout the power band
and improving torque whilst minimizing fuel consumption and emissions.
Under heavy throttle loads, D-4S employs direct injection alone, which
improves the efficiency of each charge and allows for a higher compression
ratio, thus improving engine output and balanced performance.

The V8 powerplant is also equipped with Lexus’ third-generation Dual VVT-i.
This optimised, low pressure loss, variable intake and exhaust timing system
incorporates VVT-iE, the world’s first electric motor driven intake camshaft
which, unlike hydraulic VVT, is capable of operating across the full engine
rpm range down to idle and totally independent from air temperature.

Allied to D-4S and Dual VVT-i, the 5.0 litre unit’s sports tuning
enhancements include a new cylinder head design and dual air intake,
whilst the extra throttle operation for the secondary port controls intake air
volume under high performance driving conditions without compromising
performance in the lower part of the rpm band.

Designed with circuit performance in mind, the Lexus iS-F’s new V8 also
benefits from heavy duty engine oil and transmission fluid coolers, as well
as a head scavenger oil pump to maintain optimum engine oil circulation
under lateral gravitational forces of up to over .2G. The 5.0 litre powerplant
further features a unique, low pressure loss Sports exhaust system
incorporating a semi dual exhaust manifold which reduces interference in
the flow of exhaust gases for improved output and combustion efficiency.
Particular attention has been paid to the tuning of the new engine and exhaust
systems to create the iS-F’s unique, highly distinctive sound signature. Lexus
engineers focused on a sound that changes linearly through each speed
range, with an emphasis placed on exhaust sound at low speeds and in
response to light throttle pressure, air intake sound in the high speed range
and mechanical sound during times of maximum performance.

Tuning centred on an air intake flow optimisation that responds in a linear
relation to the throttle openi

8-SPEED DIRECT PADDLE SHIFT
The new 5.0 litre V8 is mated to a highly sophisticated, 8-speed automatic
transmission which features ‘Flash Shift’ –the segment’s fastest paddle-shift
gear change- to elicit instantaneous gear engagement, prompt throttle
response and entirely linear acceleration throughout the rev’ range.

A derivation of the world’s first 8-speed automatic transmission featured on
the LS 460, the new gearbox’s sports shift control facilitates its operation
in both fully automatic and manual modes, and has been designed to
combine refined performance in everyday use with the ultimate in manual
response under circuit driving conditions.

With the goal of a gear shift speed of just 0.1 seconds (the fastest shift time
in Formula cars is 0.05 seconds), over 100 shift-related components
have been re-evaluated and optimised, including control software and
structure, the dimension of the brake plates and its supporting spring
forces, and the movement of the solenoid valves that switches and controls
the oil pressure.

Rather than attempting to erase all sense of gear shifting, the norm with a
Lexus automatic gear change, the iS-F’s F-Sports transmission has been
designed to incorporate tolerable shift response torque steps to further
enliven the sports driving experience without the previously associated
penalties of time lag and hesitation in power delivery. To that end, an ultra-fast
engine control system has also been developed to eradicate the potential
errors associated with an exceptionally rapid gearshift – just 0. seconds -
such as partial combustion or non-synchronised engine speed.
in addition, the sports control system automatically blips the throttle
whenever the driver downshifts a gear, ensuring a perfectly smooth
downshift under all driving conditions.

Furthermore, in order to maximise the speed of response to throttle inputs
–traditionally dulled by the use of a torque converter within automatic
transmissions- the new 8-speed gearbox implements lockup in all gear
steps from 2nd and above in manual mode. The lockup clutch offers a
mechanical connection between the torque converter’s pump and turbine
wheel, transmitting engine torque directly to the transmission. Though
lockup can be implemented in every gear step, general torque converter
characteristics actually enhance off-the-line acceleration, obviating the
need to engage lockup in 1st gear.

Engine:
IS-F ~450hp/400lb.ft 5.0L 7000rpm vs M3 ~420/300lb.ft 4.0L 8000rpm

no numbers have come out so why do you think the IS-F will have 450HP, stop assuming it will, even with 450HP, its handling will suck.

WOW, you wrote all that in 24 mins. To bad the BMW will still be better to drive. And for Will because of the Magic feel. lol. just in good humor.

I luv me sum magic!

I will wait to comment on this techno/auto until I drive one. My feelings are mixed from reading the tech data on it, but would love to be proved wrong.

I will say that this paragraph seems alarming to me.
"Rather than attempting to erase all sense of gear shifting, the norm with a
Lexus automatic gear change, the iS-F’s F-Sports transmission has been
designed to incorporate tolerable shift response torque steps to further
enliven the sports driving experience without the previously associated
penalties of time lag and hesitation in power delivery. "


Josh

If Lexus comps an IS-F to Agent 001 AKA King of All Lexus Fanboys, we will never hear the end of him raving about his new free ride.

Cool. Everyone's been arguing about future vehicles, and now we even have a future conspiracy theory.

I'll say it again, if you wanted a truly advertisement-free automoitive review you would check out Consumer Reports. But you Bavarian fan boys don't seem to like CR for some reason.

The M3 with an 8cylinder will mop any Lexus like it did on the race track.

Of course, a Cayman with more power would eat up both of them.

Be clear about what you mean by "power". BMW engine might has better horsepower output by revving to higher RPM, but one thing has never changed- bigger capacity has higher torque output, unless you turbocharge it. With 5 liter against 4 liter, there's no doubt IS will mop M3 on stright, and probably only on straight, unless....... LOOK DOWN!

It all depends. IS-F got a better engine, and shorter wheel base definitely helps. If the suspension is tuned by Lotus like what GT-R does, it'll definitely shoot M3 down, let alone RS4.

european fanboys make me sick but hey ive got to say i like my car in my garage more than in the shop :P. Lexus- reliability and quality hands down
BMW- History and the amazing m line

im not being biased my friend has a 2003 m3 and most of the time it is in the shop, but ive got to say bmw does look hotter and meaner than lexus and also knows how to handle. I just wanna see these beast out there in the market then we can talk about which car is the "ultimate driving machine"