Germany Automakers' Hybrid Efforts Plagued by Technical Problems

I wonder what ridiculous reasons these BMW/MB lovers would come up with now.

Don't believe everything you read.

Just like these gloom and dooms that say the real estate bubble is coming.

All BS!

Get over yorself.

'yourself'

-Meant for Flozass

And why is that?

Someday every car will have a hybrid.

Boris,

You mean to tell me that they wire them in series? Am I oversimplifying?

I've always admired electrical engineers simply because I always hated my circuits class, I did relatively well in it as I recall, but always hated it. The ironic thing of course, is that now, dealing with fluid flow in porous media, there are some laws that are, on a fundamental level, the same as the ones used in EE.

Ah ha...I see now. It took a bit. I wasn't paying attention to the word "node", my apologies.

So you are saying the Japanese are better!

Meh.

EL34, for quite sometime I have been reading a hand full of topics and I find your comments quite amusing, and most times senseless, along with a touch of being worthless. Just like your recent comment that "someday every car will have a hybrid" and etc, and etc...In response to all that, is like saying one day Lexus or even possibly any other japanese brand for that matter, will over take the Germans/Euro in the luxury segment.(remember one day, not right away! but one day!) Keep in mind that I am a proud owner of Euro brands(MB, BMW, Audi,..even SAAB) and of coarse a japanese brand "Lexus". But the simple truth to a successful auto business, it's only a matter of time for the "japanese auto maker"...and this topic is another perfect example that german/euro auto engineering continues to slip or try a tad too hard.
Why do you think they push diesel technology more so than Hybrid? It's okay do not have to answer this "we all" understand...Actually since european vehicles are known for electrical failures(had my fair share of experiences)...funny enough they continue to show how they like to chase their own tail...and go nowhere with it. That's too bad, I have this love-hate feelin' for them. They are beutiful vehicles inside & out, performs great, but electrical wise with fit and finish on some...I feel so sorry for them. For at least 80 some odd years for the european automakers being in business, I hope that they do find a solution for "making it possible"...b/c time is not on their side anymore. Cheers EL34 for continuing to provide your useless thoughts and comments!...Otherwise keep up the bad work...I'm your #1 fan!...LOL!!!!

Too much to read a too much complaining.

This is a pretty damning article against several notions and attitudes so prevalent among the German car fans on this site.

"The hybrid is a German invention."
But they can't seem to get one going at the moment.

"Hybrids are not substantial or important technology worthwhile."
But they can't seem to get one going at the moment.

"Hybrids are nothing compared to diesels, and Americans are stupid."
But all of them are clamoring to produce one.

Of course now the arguments have primarily shifted to the Germans simply wanting in on the hybrid market. Porsche is so desperate for one that they almost had Toyota engineer a whole hybrid chassis for them.

Regardless of anything, acknowledgment must be given to Toyota, for they are the reason why all the major pockets of the entire automotive industry are now going the hybrid route. Toyota forced themselves down a different path. They knew North America would not get into another diesel situation anytime soon, so they came up with a new alternative that will work just as good, if not better, for everyone.

If Ford, Toyota,and GM can do it why not them? I hope this just a bunch of BS. Most likely some bias reporter

Ford can't do it,they are using Toyota's first hybrid system in the Ford Escape!!!

This article title is misleading.

If one were to actually read the article, these 'problems' are part of the development process, and one cannot expect a flawless Hybrid system to be developed in under 2 years.

How long did it take Honda and Toyota? More than two years!

I actually read the article too... The title was the most damning part of the whole thing. Basically, BMW and Mercedes are working together to make a high-tech system that fits their needs and the needs of their customers. They acknowledge that they really do need a hybrid of some form. Porsche/VW/Audi are looking for a quick fix solution but cant find one nor are they willing to buy the whole damn power train from Toyota (nor should they).

Don't count on everyone just not reading the article. There are clear indications that the Germans are having problems developing a hybrid system with as much practicality and functionality as Toyota's.

"The company has barely managed to come up with prototypes of the first construction stage, which suggests that actual production would not begin for at least another two years. System supplier Bosch has developed a power supply unit that can handle high-voltage current of up to 300 ampere, but it takes up most of the trunk. "Of course, it still leaves much to be desired," says Dürheimer, promising that the size of the wiring system will soon be reduced."

Problems.

"The biggest problem lies in the relatively crude drive train the German engineers have chosen. While Toyota uses a complicated engine-gearbox combination with two electric power units, the VW/Porsche system features only one electric motor between the internal combustion engine and the gearbox."

Problems.

"The most difficult part of the system is achieving a smooth transition from pure electric mode to combined combustion engine and electric mode. The prototypes are still plagued by unappealing hiccups."

Problems.

And so on...

I agree though. I think the major issue here is that the Germans are simply late to the game. They see the way the market has shifted and is now trying rush to get in. I hate to say it, but we all know what happens when the Europeans rush into technology... If the Germans really want to cash in as soon as possible, the best "quick fix" to that problem would be to partner up with Toyota, like Nissan did, but that would hurt their pride as well as their image. What a dilemma for them!

But Will, I just said that it was Porsche/VW/Audi in bad shape while other German manufactures seem to be on schedule while all of your quotes refer directly to the Porsche/VW/Audi quick fix implying this is some country wide epidemic. If people actually read the article, they'd see that the quick fix solution is not the only one the Germans are working on, like the title and some of the comments here would suggest. Your selective paraphrasing is what bugged me in the first place and that repeated form just shows further that people should read the article. For example, you said that Porsche almost had Toyota engineer them a whole system while the article clearly states Porsche simply wanted to buy components and refused when Toyota said they would only provide the whole vehicle platform and rightly so! Porsche makes their own cars! This is clear misdirection on your part..

Further, I still dont see the hybrid as a miracle of automotive technology nor the German's forced entry as a submission of such. The Germans need a hybrid to compete in the US like Japanese needed a diesel to compete in Europe. But, for good measure I'll add my rebuttals.

"The hybrid is a German invention."
But they can't seem to get one going at the moment.
--They invented the rocket too, doesnt mean they sent someone to the moon. Speaking of the moon, why havent we been back in 35 years?

"Hybrids are not substantial or important technology worthwhile."
But they can't seem to get one going at the moment.
--Does the fact that they dont have one working make the technology more important, substantial or worthwile? Somehow I dont understand your agument... Must be my fault.

"Hybrids are nothing compared to diesels, and Americans are stupid."
But all of them are clamoring to produce one.
--That's right, keyword one hybrid! Tell me again how many diesels does Mercedes sells each year? As far as money is concerned, hybrids are NOTHING compared to diesels, should their be any reason for a company interested in profits to think otherwise?

The fundamental point is that Toyota definitely has the upper-hand in this situation. The article speaks of all the German manufacturers having "problems" developing a substantial hybrid drivetrain. The article uses Porsche/VW/Audi as but of one example that represents the entire situation. Of course Porsche makes their own cars, I think we all agree that it should remain this way, but we cannot have it both ways here, as Will explained several times already. However, the fact that Porsche even looked to Toyota for help is a clear indication of desperation, and a piece of information I'm sure Porsche would like to have erased off the record.

Yes, the Germans need a hybrid to remain competitive in North America, and yes, the Japanese need a diesel to remain competitive throughout Europe. However, the Japanese have easier access to good diesel engines than the German do to a good hybrid system. The Japanese have the know-how to make good diesel engines, and they are starting to do so. The Germans on the other hand, have access to a hybrid, but don't want to pay up to Toyota, which in my opinion, and yours apparently is totally respectable.

Additionally, nowhere was it implied that hybrids are the magic solution to global climate change, or whatever. Hybrids and diesels are both means of accomplishing what we are ultimately after, which is more efficient and less toxic automobiles, and hybrids are simply newer to the party, which explains all the attention they are getting. It's like when the spoiled only-child gets a new baby sibling that suddenly gets all the attention for its successes.

I think the point of Will's assertions were to point out the hypocritical arguments of many allegations against hybrids here. Whenever there is an article pertaining to a hybrid, all three of those arguments are presented, go back and look at one to see for yourself. I think it is important to point out that all of those "white lie" assertions have holes, specially considering they were continuously and almost unanimously argued with such ferocity.

Many posters here made all of those arguments...Hybrids were supposedly a German invention. Toyota's hybrid system was often patronized and underminded as "no big deal" because of that. If that really were so, why can't they get it together? What's changed? Brush the dust off one, study it, update it and ship it here already.

Hybrids aren't as "worthwhile" as diesels. Why? Because the European manufacturers have paid them no attention until now? I don't think we will ever truly know the full reasoning as to why the German manufacturers now want to push hybrid power. Do they want to stay competitive as far as profits? From a business perspective, it's pretty safe to assume that. Do the Germans just truly care about the environment and want to start doing something about it now? From a humanitarian perspective, you could say that. Is it both reasons? Could be, we will never know.

As far as diesels being

Ooops... I have a terrible tendency to type too much.

That last line was the beginning of a paragraph where I was just going to make the point that diesels and hybrids both have their strongpoints and weakpoints pertaining to fuel economy and emissions. Also, of course Mercedes sells more diesels in Europe compared to Toyota, yet equally, Toyota sells more hybrids in North America than...all the European manufacturers.

May I conclude that this whole "diesel vs. hybrid" thing is a bit unnecessary. I think we should all at least appreciate that more and more auto manufacturers are finally starting to take the necessary steps to get the "less fuel and emissions" thing going.

"The hybrid is a German invention."
But they can't seem to get one going at the moment.
--They invented the rocket too, doesnt mean they sent someone to the moon. Speaking of the moon, why havent we been back in 35 years?

Good point. I have heard so many people say that the going to the moon thing was just fake, thats why no one went from 35 years. I also heard a very good proof, and that is, if the moon doesnt have an atmosphere (no wind) why is the american flag in the picture they took is not down? Also, in the picture there is shadow, while in the moon there is no shadow.
Anyway thats way off topic, but I find it interesting....

Back to the topic... Im sure that the germans will make a fin hybrid, they just need time. I still dont like the idea of everyone making a hybrid, but it has a high demand in the american market. Whats a purpose of any company? Its to make money, so please toyota fans dont tell me germans are copying the japanese.

"If Ford, Toyota,and GM can do it why not them? I hope this just a bunch of BS. Most likely some bias reporter"

Correction. Only Toyota and Lexus can deliver it consistently and reliably.
Much as I love German cars, they are light years behind Jap in terms of electronics and hybrid technology.

That should show the German that they are NOT good at everything. Japanese brand win this one for sure. Honda also has hybrid to, and recently I belief Toyota help Nissan built a hybrid of their own. I heard that from a rumor so NOT to sure if Toyota indeed help Nissan. I know that Toyota has the hybrid system right now as we concern.

Take a chill pill there laddy.

What's the matter didn't you have a good St. Paddy's day?

Somebody asked, "If Ford, GM and Chrysler can do it, why can't they?"

Remember that BMW, DCX (which includes Mercedes) and GM are developing hybrids together? If Mercedes's hybrids didn't work, neither would theirs.

Don't worry, you will soon be seeing German Uberhybrids rolling down the roads!!!

Just Downloaded that Discovery Show - Futurecars...

They optimistic talking about cars that run on air.

Norway gots a good thing going with Hydrogen.

But all in all, I say electric is the way to go. Look at the Tesla, if that thing can be so efficient, why bother using hybrids.

Or diesels for that matter?

No automanufacturer stated it was easy to make a hybrid, not even GM.

Toyota has been working on hybrids for how many years, atleast 2 generations of Prius and research that went/goes with it.

Someone may have missed a nice point about VW putting hybrids on the backburner until Wintekorn showed up

"Eliminating this weakness could become a matter of destiny for this type of hybrid, to which the Volkswagen Group has fully committed itself. The system will also be offered for the Golf class, but a little farther down the road, because hybrid development at VW was put on ice until Martin Winterkorn took the helm as the company's new CEO" -jan1, 2007

I am glad VW/Porsche did not by up some Prius models to break down and reverse engineer them, anyone can do that.

You know, before you just ignorantly dismiss the article as completely not true, try doing more than just skimming the first line of each paragraph, and try reading some of the other comments beforehand.

huu76,

Screw your political agenda and focus on the cars.

The benefits of diesel for the driver are numerous. They are now seen by many in Europe as the 'performance' alternative to petrol, with numerous regarded tuning companies offering aftermarket chips giving these European hatchbacks 300bhp+ and LOTS of torque.

Big torque in a small car= big performance, and all with fuel economy comparable to a 1.6 petrol with less than half the power.

Not only that, but they offer relaxing motorway cruising, with engines barely pushing 3000rpm, comparable to a big displacement V8. This makes for excellent economy and relaxing travel. The torque also means that overtaking is as instant as it is easy, unlike petrol cars which need time to 'get on the boil', as it were. Modern European Turbo-diesels offer their power at almost any rpm.

These obvious benefits for not only the enthusiastic driver, but also the money-conscious one, and you soon discover why diesel cars are so popular in Europe. There is a big market for performance diesels over there, and you can see why.

I guess you will dismiss all this as nonsense, but I have come to expect nothing less of you. You hardly make yourself out as an enthusiastic driver, so you wouldn't 'get' all of what I have mentioned.

However, if you ever wanted to know what the fuss is about diesel, my post is a pretty good starting point.

Make of it what you wish.

Lets respect what the author of the article was saying. The German manufacturers want in on the Hybrid market, but it is a much more difficult technology to implement than they expected. This should be no surprise to anyone. They should just have bought the technology from Toyota when it was offered and moved on.

Guess who the Germans are going to buy their hybrid batteries from?

The Japanese.

I bet you didn't know that either, but then again, you still haven't bothered to read the article.

You didnt bother to read it either Will, and this is the second time I've had to point that out...

Quoted directly from the article:
"The supplier of the batteries for the S class will be French battery maker Saft, a company with experience mainly in the aerospace and defense industries."

Here's a quote suggesting that he did read the article:

"Meanwhile Varta, a Hanover-based institution in the battery-making business, is trying desperately to keep up. Even German carmakers are buying nickel metal hydride batteries, currently the standard in hybrid automobiles, elsewhere. VW buys its batteries in Japan, from Honda supplier Sanyo."

The article is from a German magazine that is pointing out how difficult it is to develop reliable hybrid technology. Why people get upset here is a mystery.

You do realize that Toyota will be releasing the next generation hybrids (lithium-ion) in about a year, don't you.

If the BMW/MB can't even get past Hybrid 101, how the hell do you figure they'd match up against the big boys.

These guys should just concentrate on an enhancing their "image" and improve on an empty subjective quality called "heritage" cause it sure works for a lot of old farts on this site.

They should leave technological innovation to the new kids on the block.

Huu,

Boris was right. You're an idiot. I don't usually insult people but you're a big candidate for the "Autolies Dumbest Troll" award. Here's why:

"What are the sales volumes of Toyota trucks vs. German V8s?"

Are you serious? Toyota's, even with a V8, are substantially cheaper than a German car with a V6 motor.

Toyota = mainstream

German cars in the US = luxury


And modern diesels have proven to be clean and efficient. As technology improves, diesels and petrol powered cars will become even cleaner.

So once again, you're an idiot.

Actually, I would argue that the "facts" are against you in this particular case. Though diesels emit more during their life of operation, the dust to dust energy that it takes to make them, their fuel and run them is less than a hybrid effectively killing your argument.

http://cnwmr.com--- here you can see the dust to dust energy of every car. You'll find that a Prius takes the same dust to dust energy as a Hummer H3.

Shut up.

European small engines are extremely clean.

You know jack.

I love you guys!

Who else could provide such entertaining reading on a Sunday afternoon?

Few months ago: "Hybrids suck!"
Today: "the German hybrids will be better than Toyota's"
So, by that logic, the German hybrids will really suck?

You really cannot underestimate the power of prescribed culture. That's what tells people that German cars will always be best, the sun revolves around the earth, etc. etc...

Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

And for the jackass that is bragging about Mercedes only making hybrids because customers are demanding it is very stupid. Caving in to peer pressure is hardly in line with the "innovator of all things" label some apply to Merc.

Being an innovator is one thing, but losing market share is another.

All car manufacturers want to follow the money, no way around it.

Gee, that was a valid comparison.

You compared the latest Toyota offering with a 1300cc capacity engine against a VW model with 1400cc that isn't even in production anymore! Also VW's 1.4 motor is hardly a 'new' unit.

If you had a wider scope, you would have also visited Renault and Peugeot, Reanult having 28 cars in its range emitting less than 120g/km.

By law, car manufacturers in Europe must display Co2 levels on all models.

Yeah, the Prius looks better than the current design leader in Europe...

*Newsflash* Renault design is much more inspiring than anything Toyota could produce.

Also, these models you mentioned are entry level cars, so performance is not going to be a strong point. However the way they drive is another story...

Guys... leave huu alone, hes a hypocrite.
He drives a jeep and is talkin about how dirty diesels are and about how to save the enviroment..... SAD!

german cars are overpriced and overrated.

german engineers are overrated.

heck, they still can't even match AMERICANS in making their cars nearly as RELIABLE as japanese cars.

it took HONDA to force them to catch up with variable valve timing systems.

now they're struggling to catch up with toyota.

will they have to copy suzuki next?

(well, at least they still have heritage and magic feel to satisfy loyal customers. ;) )

"...German car-makers -- who have a reputation in Europe as laggards when it comes to implementing environmentally friendly technologies..."

excerpt from another item also in spiegel:

FUMING WITH RAGE

EU Environment Minister Plans to Buy Japanese Car to Spite Germans

Under pressure from Germany, Brussels says it will water down a proposal to force car-makers to cut greenhouse gas emissions in new models. But the European Union's environment commissioner plans to strike back by replacing his gas-guzzling Mercedes -- with a Japanese hybrid.


AP
Waging war against the gas guzzlers: EU Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas is planning to swap his Mercedes for a fuel-efficient Japanese car.
Stavros Dimas, the European Union's environment commissioner, is none too happy with the German government or auto industry.

The European Commission, led by President Jose Manuel Barroso, says it will water down a Dimas-penned plan that would have required auto-makers to create lines of cars that would limit greenhouse gas emissions to an average of 120 grams of CO2 per kilometer by 2012. That's down from an environmentally unfriendly average of about 160 grams today. But Dimas is hatching a revenge plan that, if nothing else, would deal a PR blow to Germany's luxury car industry.

The commissioner is reportedly preparing to swap the gas-guzzling Mercedes sedan that ferries him around Brussels each day with an environmentally friendly Japanese hybrid. The EU is planning to replace its current fleet of luxury sedans, and Dimas is said to be looking at Toyota's Prius hybrid, as well as a higher-end Lexus hybrid made by the same company.

By switching, he could simultaneously serve as a role model for the 27 other EU commissioners while at the same time giving German car-makers -- who have a reputation in Europe as laggards when it comes to implementing environmentally friendly technologies -- a slap in the face. Currently, most of the EU's top brass are shuttled from their homes to their appointments in luxury sedans made by Audi, BMW and Mercedes.

Sources in Brussels told the German news agency DPA that Dimas is leaning towards a Lexus hybrid. The 340-horsepower Lexus emits approximately 186 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre, whereas the DaimlerChrysler model currently driven spews close to 270 grams of greenhouse gases per kilometer into the atmosphere.

also from spiegel:

SPIEGEL: But it doesn't seem to be as clear to the German automobile industry. Otherwise it wouldn't oppose your environmental requirements so vehemently. Is the German automobile industry behind the times?

Dimas: No, I have great confidence in the German auto industry. The car was invented in Germany, after all.

SPIEGEL: But filters for diesel exhaust particles were long used primarily in French and Japanese cars. Both countries also build some of the most environmentally friendly cars. Why?

Dimas: I also wonder where German engineers, with their tremendous history, are when it comes to incorporating the latest in exhaust gas filtering into vehicles. As it happens, others are making the money in this field. It's clear that the old technology will not survive.

SPIEGEL: Perhaps carmakers will continue to achieve nice little compromises, just as they have done in the past, so that they won't have to do too much.

Dimas: I don't think so. Things are different now, because too many people now recognize the fatal consequences we could face if we do not act now. For example, particulate matter from automobile exhaust fumes claims about 300,000 lives in the EU each year, from respiratory illnesses and their consequences. Under these circumstances, there can be no compromises with the automobile industry that come at the cost of health.


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SPIEGEL: Is that why you are now switching to a Japanese car?

Dimas: My driver told me three months ago that we should lease a new car for official business. Of course, the car we ordered was a Toyota Prius with an environmentally friendly hybrid engine.

SPIEGEL: Can an EU commissioner really drive a Japanese car?

Dimas: Of course. This hybrid is at the top of the German Automobile Club's list of the most environmentally friendly cars.

SPIEGEL: But the VW Polo BlueMotion is also on that list.

Dimas: The Polo is an excellent car, but I need a vehicle for long journeys which, like the Prius, is also big enough to work in. But I do wonder why there isn't a German, Italian or French hybrid that I could drive.

Interview conducted by Sebastian Knauer, Hans-Jürgen Schlamp, and Markus Verbeet

Politicians lecturing us on cars.

I guess everyone kindly forgot that Hybrid cars cause damage to the environment in the manufacturing process, much more than a conventional engine.

and unlike conventional engines, diesels KILL 300,000 people a year in the EU.

Electrical problems with a german car? Are we surprised? How hard cAN it be? They can see how the other companies do it and lets hope they can improve apon it. I like the idea of a plug in hybrid!

The whole diesel versus hybrid issue is pointless. Diesel and hybrid are not mutually exclusive. One technology does not rule out the other. I have seen a diesel hybrid made (I think by BMW or Renault).