Should Lexus Be Striving for an Image Makover?

Being known as a premium luxury company has always been their trademark.That is why they have never introduced cheaper vehicles to the market like BMW's plans with introducing a 1 series in North America. To maintain and increase that premium reputation, you can't go downmarket for the sake of some low profit sales.

they started life as 80% of a premium german car for 70% of the price, so don't get on you high horse...
more importantly i believe it is the normal course of things that they start by building a solid reputation for themselves, then , and only once that is established, they can start working on getting into fantasy land. They are anyway to be commanded for their efforts!

I never have seen Lexus call themselves a premium maker. Only a luxury maker. There is a difference.

You're wrong on that. You can't be looking down on BMW or Mercedes or any German company if they offer lower end models. Have you seen the models they offer in Europe.

When the IS300 was out there was IS200D, IS250D, IS255(JDM) and probably others I don't know about. Does that mean they're going down market?. A luxury brand can still maintain reputation even though they offer a car that's more affordable.

We are talking about brand image in North America as per the article. Lexus does not plan to introduce cheaper products here because their goal is to raise the brand, not make it less exclusive. In Europe, whenever they see an IS model, you will many times have a comment about the quality of the vehicle.

Lexus has no need to offer cheaper models. What would be the point? Unlike VW/Audi, Toyota/Lexus knows better than to step on the toes of an existing model with a new one just for the sake of trying to up a brand's image.

The whole point of a luxury brand is to offer the luxury attributes of a car above the mass-market mark. There's a reason a Lexus ES costs more than a Toyota Camry, and no, they are not just "the same car" as some ignorant people keep trying to force here on this site. There's a higher level of engineering, build quality, luxury features, attention to detail, etc. among the ES than there is the Camry. They just happen to be based off of the same chassis. This applies just as it does to the VW Golf and the more expensive Audi A3, just as it does to the E-Class and more expensive CLS-Class.

Mercedes also has their own idea about how people perceive their brand. One question: why doesn't North America get the A- and B-Classes? Audi the A2? The intro of the BMW 1-Series into the North American market will be watched intensely I'm sure.

The lexus IS250 is less expensive by a few thousand the the BMW 328i. If BMW wants to offer a 1-series to compete in the 29k to 30k price range, then so be it. It will be a more formidable competition to the IS250.

The 1-Series is not and will not be a competitor to the IS. And the IS250 is simply a cheaper version of an existing luxury-sport sedan by means of equipment level and engine options, NOT an "economy car."

and, the IS250 and IS350 are based on....a toyota.

Don't be upset that a "Toyota" betters most of the entire line-up from your favorite brand in many ways. Namely, quality and refinement.

It goes without saying that the IS is NOT a Toyota though. Your ignorance is excused...

no dumbass, the IS is an IS and is not based on anything else. you are talking about the previous gen IS which was a rebadged altezza. now go buy a clue.

boring...

That's also a nice photo representation of what a modern Lexus car looks like.
I supposen next time there is an article about Mercedes or BMW, you will place a picture of a 17 year old vehicle next to the article.

Not really indicative of a modern Lexus, but possibly a forgettable design style.

A 17 year old Benz would feature seats with school-bus style suspension. A 17 year old BMW would feature a non-functioning trip computer.

No, it's the Merc seats that have a similar suspension to a school bus. Crappy in other words.

No, it's the Merc seats that have a similar suspension to a school bus. Crappy in other words.

You are trying to project a lower image of the brand by placing a less-than-flattering picture of an older model vehicle. You obviously have an agenda, but that is ok, it creates debate.

Are you ashamed of the Lexus past models?

I would be much more ashamed of a 17 year old BMW or Mercedes, and especially an Audi.

i agree, the ES250 is a rare car that ive seen fetch a good amount of money (good condition). its one of those cars that built the whole brand to where it is now. think of it as the 300SL gullwing, except in 80s form....and has japanese modernist styling. heh ok...

Lexus should stay with what they do best. How many times do you see car companies trying to tap into a foreign market only to see them fail each and every time? When is enough, enough? Stay with what you do best and improve on it. Lexus should stay away from the exotic ultra premium marques. Bentley, Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Maybach, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Bugatti to name the select few are in a league of their own. There is so much Heritage and Prestige in that segment, that unless you have that to back up your car you will never succeed. Lexus is looked upon in the US, in their luxury cars as second class to BMW & Mercedes. I do agree and think lexus should offer more conv and coupes to their lineup, but as far as saying that you want to compete with Rolls & Bentley I have to ask, who are you crappin?

You gotta be on some serious crack if you think Lexus is second tier to BMW and Mercedes. Ignorances is bliss and you're the prime example of it.

but they are second tier.

it's not complicated people...brands that are able to charge a MASSIVE premium (especially mercedes) are simply more valuable in the minds of consumers.

lexus couldn't compete if it were not priced at a huge discount to BMW and mercedes.

There are no discounts on Lexus vehicles, but there are on Merecdes(R,C,S Class)
BMW (7,X3) and Audi (A8,A4,Q7). When you take into account these incentives,
the artificially higher price becomes much closer to the actual selling price of
the lexus vehicles. Lexus is protecting their luxury brand image by not discounting to the badge whores.

lexus runs plenty of deals on cars that are selling slowly....lately the RX.

even with discounts (on certain less popular models), average sales price of mercedes/bmw are still higher. in the case of upper end models....MUCH higher.

Mercedes always has a hard time moving their higher-ended models off dealer lots. Anyone can go get a pretty good deal on a CLS, R, SL, and even an SLR right now if they want to.

and just saw a TV commercial with lease specials on the IS too!

now you're being silly.
the SL and SLR! are you kidding?

The SL is getting a major refresh to keep it sales up, and it's no secret that the SLR had less than desirable sales, even considering its "ultra-exclusive" status. The 722 Edition and rumored convertible edition are being implemented to help...

they are considered second class by ball cap wearing losers who cant afford any luxury car. such as yourself. but you dont have to believe it. just go to any lexus dealer and count the benzes and bmws and audis on the lot. you never see lexus on any bmw or benz lot. just like you dont see lexus in the shop being repaired every quarter unlike benzes. as they say, like no other [over priced piece of junk]

Lexus needs a new design team with cars that look exciting, not boring.

Where is Lexus looked upon as second class to BMW and Mercedes in the U.S.?
They are, as stated many times, the Number 1 Luxury brand in the U.S. That is the toughest market to rule because of all the competition from other great vehicles.
To reach the top speaks volumes about the quality of the Lexus brand.

yes number 1 in sales, but thats it, just because they sell the most does not mean they are the best car. They are great at advertising and making people bbuy into there crap. i would say about 95% of americans(I am an american) who buy lexus have no clue about the car they are buying(ex- HP,Engine type,)True enthusiasts buy Audi,BMW, and MB, plain and simple.


All you lexus guys have is your sales in The US, besides that lexus pales in comparision to there german counterparts

#1 luxury brand is just marketing blather.
the ES and RX are hardly luxury cars...they're rebadged toyotas with better service and nice leather.

the RX alone account for 1/3 of lexus sales (108,000 last year).

take those two immensely boring cars away and you don't have much left.

#1 luxury brand is just marketing blather.
the ES and RX are hardly luxury cars...they're rebadged toyotas with better service and nice leather.

the RX alone account for 1/3 of lexus sales (108,000 last year).

take those two immensely boring cars away and you don't have much left.

Again, sales in North America are indicative of what the Luxury car consumer prefers there. A base ES or RX is a much nicer vehicle than any base BMW or Mercedes. Lexus also has much better reliability and quality than your favourite Euro brands. These are facts, and I know it hurts when you feel fleeced putting down hard earned money on a car that might not start in the morning when you
have to get to work.

ES is nicer from YOUR perspective. clearly, you're willing to sacrifice style and performance for a little more reliability. not me. besides, who in their right mind cross-shops an ES and a 3-series. they're totally different cars.

oh, and i've never had my BMW not start on me. and nearly all cars today are incredibly reliable. they start and get you from A to B.

The majority of 3-Series sales are the lower-end 325i's and such with automatic engines. The perfect alternative is the Lexus ES, which sells better than the 3-Series and C-Class in North America.

Why do the haters insist on trying to take away the RX and ES sales?

Let's just take away BMW's 3-Series sales then...

and even the 325i is fun to drive!
and it's not a rebadged version of some cheaper car.

you've got to be kidding me with the ES. it's an old lady car. average buyer is 60! 20 years older than the average 3-series buyer.

because the RX and ES are rebadged toyotas. poser cars for people who aren't secure enough to drive a toyota (which i think are great cars for most people).

"poser cars?"

Says a BMW/Mercedes fan?

the 3-Series and C-Class are the two biggest "poser cars" available on the market. No more luxury than a Toyota Camry for thousands of more dollars. At least with the ES you get MORE luxury, not just a pretty fancy badge. Honestly, what would be the appeal of the C-Class without the Mercedes badge?

you just made my point for me.
the ES is truly just a badge.

As well as the 3-Series and C-Class.

You ignored my point entirely. The idea behind the ES is that it's NOT "just a Camry." No such idea exists behind the C-Class.

they pale in comparison to repair history. again, you cant afford any of these cars so go back to your civic and shut up.

but will, it's BASED on a camry....same chassis, powertrain, features, etc.

the C and 3 aren't based on economy cars.

david ... lexus is number one due to their success of selling the RX models and the ES models. Lexus really doesnt sell alot of LS and GS sedans compared to BMW or Mercedes. Look at the numbers over the last 5 years and it will show you that. For that matter, BMW sells more 5-series in the US than lexus sells GS & LS models combined. This is with the fact both MB & BMW have much more expensive products.

David ... you missed my point from before. Lexus builds a great, reliable & quiet car. It is nothing special. I work in an area that has extremely affluent cliental and most of them have in their driveway a BMW 7-series, S-class, Range Rover & a Lexus Truck. Lexus sedans pale in comparison to the German Counterparts in regards to Exclusivity, Prestige, Ego, Status & Luxury. I think for Lexus to say they want to try and tap into the Premium Ultra Luxury brands is a mistake.

Very smart of Lexus to spend money on an image upgrade. What is Rolex to the general public but slick marketing? True watch connoisseurs are not impressed by Rolex, but the average wanna-be rich guy sees a Rolex and assumes the best.

Lexus wants that sort of public image. They no longer want to be perceived as the "value luxury" car. They now want to be a luxury icon, along the lines of Rolex, Prada, Louis Vuitton, etc. MB has spent decades cultivating this image. Cadillac HAD that image but screwed it up royally in the late 80's and 90's.

It's going to take more than 5 years for Lexus to succeed, but once they are committed to this image makeover, all it takes is money, slick marketing and patience.

Come on, Rolex is certainly more than a marketing success story...here is a bit of Rolex history...once again it has a history and shown to be an innovator in their field...something Lexus will need to develop in order for it to be thought of as true competitors in the market. Lexus cannot just force feed marketing hype and clever associations (Prada, LV, etc) to the masses and expect enthusiasts to fall in line (unless they think of themselves as relavent as a handbag/leather accessory)..they need to earn the right with technology, innovation and history (TIME)..its so much more than marketing..and a self parking gizmo. I know they want it now but they need to be wary of trying to hard, going to fast or you will become last years 'must have' consumer luxury good...

ABOUT ROLEX: Among the company's innovations are the first waterproof watch case; the first wristwatch with a date on the dial; the first watch to show two timezones at once; and most importantly the first watchmakers to earn the coveted chronometer certification for a wristwatch.[2] To date, Rolex still holds the record for the most certified chronometer movements in the category of wristwatches.

Another little known fact is that Rolex participated in the development of the original quartz watch movements. the company's engineers were instrumental in design and implementation of the technology during the late 1960s and early 1970s.

BMW's popularity stems from the 3 series sedan, their least expensive model until the 1 series hits our shores. What exclusivity and luxury are you refering to with a BMW? I see them everywhere. BMW fans despise the 7 series, and do not think much more highly of the 5. They also have huge lease incentives to try and push their vehicles out the door, as well as free maintenance for your lease.

Lexus shares platforms with toyota to help lower costs to push their cars out of the showrooms. Lexus also uses really attractive leases to move their cars out with big discounts. Mercedes does the same, so does audi, porsche, acura, infiniti, cadillac, jaguar, and a few others. what is your point?

What is the current state of BMW and their cars? X5 ( 3.0si or 4.8L ) sold out in most dealers in the US for 4 to 5 weeks out with no real lease program compared to other makes and no financing ... 3-series coupes and conv are sold out in most markets for 2 to 3 months with no great lease deals and no financing what so ever .... 7-series in pretty handy in stock, but their is not a great lease deal on the car ... 3-series sedans offering a very attractive lease on the 328i rwd sedan and not as attractive on the 328xi sedan .... 335xi sedan doesnt have a lease program ... 335 sedan is attractive but supply is low for engines and savings is not as attractive anymore .... 2007 5-series that are remaining have aggressive lease program and special financing due to 2008 5-series due out in April .... X3 is an attractive lease program but availability is pretty low nationwide ....

In regards to free-maintenance, BMW has had it on their cars since 2001. Audi had it up til the last year ... Mercedes had it til 2006 .... Lexus had scheduled up to the first year I believe in 2005 ... Range rover has it fully inclusive ...

who you crappin?

and the 3-series is a well respected car.
yes, it's only a compact sport sedan.
but it certainly isn't a rebadged economy car.
that's the problem with lexus....most of their cars are just rebadged toyotas.

The quality of the 3 series has been going downhill for a long time, cheap interior, bad electricals,etc. If it weren't for yuppies and badge whores, the brand would have to increase incentives and discounts even more than they are doing now to make sales.

so consumers are just morons? right.

people are loyal to brands because they've built reputations over years. each brand has qualiities it's known for. and people who value those qualities....surprise!...buy those cars!

personally, i value good design and performance (i.e. handling) most. even if i had a few problems with a BMW (which i haven't), i happily trade a little inconvenience for the grin i have on my face every time i get behind the wheel.

Just because a brand is recognized for its past achievements does not mean that the brand still holds those values presently. Benzes are no longer described as having the build quality of tanks. Fact.

past achievements?

great design (CLS, S for example)
technology (distronic, active suspension, supremely powerful engines,etc)
and, yes, a heritage in the above.

tank-line build quality (lacking)
impeccable reliability (lacking)

if reliability is your primary concern in a car (and it seems to trump everything else for you) why not just buy a hyundai or a jaguar? the 2006 j.d. power rankings for initial quality are as follows:

1.porsche
2.lexus
3.hyundai
4. toyota
5. jaguar

Nothing wrong with those cars, just that Lexus has always been a high quality brand from the start, and I also like the way they look.

great design? try sitting in the rear seat of a cls. its just a rebodied e class anyway. both cars are junk. benz electronics anyone?

Good analogy quizz.

I think Lexus needs to return a coupe(not a coupe/convertible, but a coupe) to the marketplace.

I also think Lexus made a mistake in not offering the glass roof as an option on the new LS when it can be had on the ES.

its funny, all the companies ive worked for have had CEOs who drive an LS430. im not saying anything about what this means, this is just an observation i made. perhaps BMW still targets yuppies and benz still targets geriatrics? these are the stereotypes afterall...

how many companies is that? 1 or 2 ... look at the numbers over the last 5 years. The Lexus LS has traditionally not faired well compared with BMW and Mercedes flagships in Sales in the US. The current one is selling well, but that is because it is new. That will taper off. The useless self parking thing will be a gimic for only so long. I have tried it out and it is cool, but in chicago try finding a place to park downtown that is about 6 ft longer than your car. Not practical

What does your personal opinion of a technological feature of the car have to do with the sales of the car, and whether or not CEOs drive them?

The LS has always fared better sales than the S-Class and 7-Series here in North America. Allocation of the new LS sold out in Japan within the first week. Allocation of the new LS600 has sold... keep in mind all this with the somewhat dramatic price increases of all LS models.

will ... The LS has not fared better in the US in sales vs the German counterparts, which may I remind you list on a average of $10k more.

I don't know what you believe, but everyone knows that the LS outsells the S-Class and 7-Series in North America. The new LS sold 3000 units for the month of January alone. Compare that to the S-Class's 2000.

and still at a dramatic discount to the S-class.
$61,000 base vs. $87,000 base.
that's a 42% premium for mercedes.

it's ridiculous to compare the sales volume of cars that are that far apart in price.

The price of the LS has gone up. Seriously, try finding a dealer that will actually sell u at MSRP. The LS, S-class, 7-series and A* all have pretty much identical prices.
And if you really think that 5000$ will make a difference in someone buying an LS over a S-class you seriously need a reality check.
When people go buy these cars the last thing on their mind is generally the price. And if the price does play a big role in you buying one of these cars, then you shouldn't buy it because you obviously can't afford it.

The majority of new LSs being sold are not at the $61,000 base. Most are sold at or around $85,000. Long-wheelbase LS460s are going for around $93,000.

Meanwhile, most S-Classes I bet are being sold even without Distronic, NightView Assist, Parktronic, and the other hefty options that the car offers. Most just want the S-Class name.

The LS's price has increased, and it's still selling.

lexus king:
lexus does not "dominate in every market in which it competes."
it dominates only in the entry-luxury SUV category with the RX (108,000 in 2006).

places it does not dominate:

IS sales are 45,000+, 3-series toal 120,000
GS sales are 20,000 vs. 55,000 for the E-class
LX sales are 6,000 vs. 25,000 for the GL

just a few examples.

so i guess we should compare honda accord sales volume to ES sales volume? about the same proportionate price differential between those two cars and the LS and S-class.

The ES competes with the 3-Series and C-Class. Lexus has TWO vehicles for the compact sedan segment. The IS represents the sport-luxury, and the ES represents the strictly luxury. Put the ES and IS sales together and guess which models they outsell in North America?

that's not true. the typical LS460 is not sold at $85,000. in fact, the LS460 with every option is $72,800 according to lexus.com (go build one). and most cars aren't sold with every option. you are right, however, that the LS460L with every single special option is $93,000. but again, how many cars are typically sold with every option.

but i'll play along...an S550 with every option is over $120K.

add 550,000 camry sales to that and you almost have the best selling luxury brand in the world.

True.

really? why dont you compare the standard equipment as well as the loaded versions. you get more car for less money and much better reliability which should be a given in a luxury car. but benz expects its lemmings to just shut up and take it. which they do.

"Lexus also uses really attractive leases to move their cars out with big discounts"
Really, where? Also, GS450h and LS600H have over a year waiting list. They will also be upgrading their SUV lineup with new models over the next 12 months that will be much more sporty, but still be very luxury oriented. As well, they do not give free maintenance with thier leases because one thing BMW or many others can't touch, is Lexus' reliability.

the LS600hL apparently has sold the first few months. or so the PR people say.

the GS450h on the other hand is barely selling.

they're running great deals on the RX and IS right now. watch some tv.

New RX model is being introduced later this year, and I have not seen any deals on an IS.

actually it's not.
there won't be a new RX until late 2008 as an 09 model.

"Also, GS450h and LS600H have over a year waiting list"

The GS450h is not on a year waiting list. I have friends that work at Lexus and they are on a wait list of a few months. The LS600H is but that is mostly due to the limited production of about 500 to 1000 cars coming to the market. The new 2008 BMW M3 is probably on a 2 year list and that car is not even out yet for another year.

" As well, they do not give free maintenance with thier leases because one thing BMW or many others can't touch, is Lexus' reliability"

Let me say this one more time for all the slow lexus fans out there. B M W has offered Full Maint. since 2 0 0 1. Whether you lease, finance or pay cash the maint comes with the car. Even better news is that you can extend it on a certified pre-owned BMW for an additional 2 yrs or 50k miles from the end of the factory warranty. If I am not mistaken, doesnt Audi offer a maint program for a price? Range Rover it comes standard and I think Inifinti is getting into the mix also but with scheduled services only.

Free maintenance has to be given as a sales incentive with those cars because they are not the most reliable out there. It agrivates people when they have to go to the shop unexpectedly for a problem, and have to pay for it. This eases the pain of ownership for those brands.

so what is your point? If you can afford to buy a car every 3 to 4 years, then why not. It is not restricted to BMW buyes. I dont care if the warranty runs out or not. Nor does it matter what kind of car you drive. All of the luxury car makes cost alot to repair items if the break once the warranty expires.

david ... reliability is just a bit exaggerated. You make it sound as though BMW is a everyday fix. last time i checked the average was only about 1.68 problems per 100 cars. Have you ever owned a BMW? How bout a lexus? a honda maybe? toyota? What do you think about all the engine recalls with honda and acura going on right now? How bout with toyota and the recalls that they have had?

eases what pain? I am confused. I have had 4 BMW's and currently on my 5th. I have had a 1988 528e that I put 158k miles on it without any problems that were out of the norm. A few glitches here or there, but I didnt have to bring it in an exaggerated amount of times. No more times than my dad had to bring in his LS400 or his GS300. I have a 2006 330xi and had to bring it in at 15k miles to do, you guessed it , free scheduled oil service. I have had an Infiniti Qx4 in 1999 and had numerous problems with the speedometer working incorrectly ... These are high tech automobiles that on occasion need some tidying up. All cars have issues. The more technology that you cramm into something, the more potential for problems. I personally dont buy things based on the reliability of them. I buy things because i enjoy how they drive, make me feel and offer. I have a harley Fat boy ( not due to reliability ) because I enjoy riding and lifestyle with it. I want the safest motorcycle, then I would buy a jap metric cruiser like every other want to be. I have a very good living and want the best. Lexus doenst do anything with their cars that is spectacular. They do things very well but only excell is reliability ( which for 3 to 4 years of ownership most people wont encounter the benefits ) and the smoothness and quietness of ride. To me this is boring ... I want to drive a car that evokes fun to drive. That I feel the power and can take an off ramp or drive thru a winding road pushing the car to the limit. I commute everyday in traffic 2 to 3 hours a day. Sometimes i like to feel like getting away from the daily insanity. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari and provide that fun to drive characteristics. Lexus is is just blah.

That's exactly why I don't want a Lexus.
I don't not like them, I just don't want one.
Not as luxurious as Merc, as sporty as BMW (or even Audi), not as stylish as Audi, and not as good an image as either of the Germans, in my country at least. Lexus sells like 10% of what Audi does.

But reliability is important to a lot of more mature buyers. So is comfort and luxury. Looking cool in a beemer is good for yuppies. An aging yuppie in a beemer starts looking sorta .... you know... pitiful.

Despite your name.... coolness in a beemer will not last "4ever". Sorry.

dusty-"An aging yuppie in a beemer starts looking sorta .... you know... pitiful.
"

why would a guy in a 50k+ car look pitiful? you make no since what so ever!

edit- ^sense, not since


your still crazy anyway

Sorry jmrA480. Didn't mean to offend an aging yuppy trying to look cool in a flashy car. Just ignore the babes laughing at you...

dusty, what is flashy about driving a A6 or 5 series? sorry you can afford one, but your a joke. Do you really think driving a A6, 5 series or E class at 40 years old is pitiful?Thats who there made for, its not as pitiful as driving a vette! No driving a camry at 40+ is a joke, get a real job and maybe you will afford one, one day!

and I'm not affended by your comments since I am only 27, and can afford a nicer car then your old pathetic jealous @ss. Only someone who can not afford something thinks it is pathetic to own something.

I have never heard of a someone being pathetic driving a 50K+ Audi, BMW, MB or even Lexus, just because they like nice cars, doesnt mean someone is pathetic.

Also i am not trying to impress anyone since I am ingaged , I just like nice cars and always have even before I could drive.

Your the only one who is pathetic

dusty- what gives you the right to come on here and call people pathetic like you did to me and BMW4me4ever, who the hell are you, just because BMW4me4ever and I bust our ass to own nice cars means were pathetic. Your a joke and i feel bad for you, you seem like a jealous bitter old man.

jmrA480, careful there 'ol fellow, you're drooling all over your cool leisure suit. Now go change your Depends and behave. By the way, congrats on being "ingaged".

dusty - are you go contribute anything about cars or keep giving people advice that was maybe important 30 years ago , this is a car site and not one thing you have said has anything to do with cars. I dont need advice on life from a bitter old man.

jmrA480, I was making a car comment when you started in on your series of very-elderly-like hot flashes. I was making a point that many of the more-mature drivers put high value on reliability, comfort and luxury (as exemlified by Lexus). I secondarly was making the more subtle point that not in all cases does maturity (as opposed to immaturity) necessarily follow chronological aging. When that happens, it is a bit sad ...... or pitiful.

Also, let me add here that more-mature drivers seem to have less tendency to buy cars for the primary purpose of impressing others and/or to compensate for other, shall we say, deficiencies.

well maybe explain it better like you just did, the way you said it sounded like any older aging person with a bimmer is pitiful and thats far from the truth. to me a 45 year old man in a 7 series is far from pitiful

But I did see an aging yuppy in a beemer today that looked kinda pitiful ..... Just saying.

thats fine, but expalin yourself. what is aging to you? and what kinda bimmer? your comment makes no sense unless you explain it?

So to you a aging yuppie in a lexus is OK, but one in a bimmer is pitiful, it just makes no sense.

BTW, I do not have a bimmer, I own an Audi, but cant understand your reasoning on this topic

Old is a state of mind. You say you are just 27, yet you have your panties in a knot because of what I say. You, my friend, are a prematurely old geezer. Chill. Relax. Enjoy life. Go vroom vroom around the block.

Someday you may reach a point in life where you find that ain't so important to you. Get it? Quit embarrassing yourself. You're starting get tiresome.

Well that is good for you BMW4M4Ever that you have not had any problems with your vehicles, but I have numerous reliability related issues and stories with the
brand. I am not saying they are junk, but please do not ever try to compare the secure everyday driving experience of Lexus with the electronics deficient and rattle prone Bimmer. And it is kind of funny that you would try to equate the "fun to drive" experience of BMW with that of Ferrari. The Italian marques are miles ahead in that category.

"the secure everyday driving experience of Lexus"

Sorry David, but this blew your cover. Youre either a lexus salesman or the biggest girl on the planet. Can you please explain how a BMW isnt secure and tell me why anyone who owns a BMW wouldnt drive it everyday?

"electronics deficient and rattle prone Bimmer"

Get real buddy. BMWs are bank vault solid and Ive never had a single rattle. Ever. And if you think BMWs have electrical issues, I suggest you head over to your local VW dealership. All the BMWs Ive owned have been amazingly reliable, even when driven very hard.

Please admit that youve never owned any BMW, because sentences like those make it painfully obvious.

Headlights, turn signals,power windows have all failed within 2 years.You ever try to drive everyday with a secure feeling in rain or snow, not just great sunny California weather? Sporty feel and handling is great to have, but you have to consider all weather conditions when comparing cars.

43LE,

It's not "perspective." It's called DENIAL.

For most Lexus owners, it's not about the image as much as it is a slew of other factors that we are just as content with as our flashy neighbor is content with his Ferrari. I don't care about image, I don't care about history, I don't care about "prestige." I don't care about how other people perceive me when I stroll through town in a Lexus.

This totally is not a knock on people who concern themselves with such ideals, and I totally have no problem with Lexus wanting to up its image. The brand certainly has the "substance" of a great luxury brand, and whomever continues to spew crap about the brand just being "marketing" is obviously a snobby fool.

Lexus will never have as much "history" as its competitors, but does that make their products inferior?

They've proven this inquiry wrong with basically every vehicle they've produced.

exactly.
I don't think many people say their products are "inferior", but Lexus caters to a different market, a market for people who don't like cars.
You said yourself, you bought for transport purposes, a practical purchase, a tool. An M5 or S4 or AMG whatever is not a practical purchase, it's an emotional one. If lexus makes another convertible, I will be interested as to what image they will carve for it then, as the SC has carved completely the wrong one of airhead cruiser.

And Will, you do not have to be snobby to make an emotional purchase. Lexus are yet to make an emotion-driven car, but maybe future cars will change that ie IS-F, new convertible, coupe.
Are you saying you don't care about what people think of you at all? What your car says of you? If so then you and I are very different people.

Oh and it's the lack of history that causes their lack of image that puts me off, not the direct lack of history.
Maybach has little recent history, and I had not heard of it, but the image they carved instantly gave them credibility to be in the market IMO.
When Lexus lauched as cut price merc, that ruined it in Europe, as it is still known as the cut price Merc. That may not be true, but that is how it's seen.

Rupert,

I see the "emotional purchase" argument a whole different argument in itself. Who's to say I didn't cry in happiness the day I picked up my Lexus?

As far as your last sentence,

In general, no I do not care what people think of me when I'm in my car. The major difference that I have noticed here on this site is that for many of you, that is the #1 factor in the entire car-buying process. I'm sorry, but anyone who strolls up to the BMW dealership trying to resolve the issue of which vehicle will get them the most envious stares is totally ridiculous in my book.

In general, I like automobiles. I like what they represent in terms of many other factors such as technology, transportation and luxury, but I do not concern myself with such frivolous ideas of envy and beauty. I like what I like because I like it.

It is out of pure ignorance to believe that Lexus is just simply the "cut price merc" anymore. First off, Lexus has never marketed themselves that way. Value, yes, but "cut price merc" never. Sadly, people do believe this though, and many also believe the exact same thing about Audi. It's all out of ignorance.

Also,

Ironically, Maybach worked because of their Mercedes association. It was viewed the world over literally as the $300,000 Mercedes.

Rupert, you said "Oh and it's the lack of history that causes their lack of image that puts me off, not the direct lack of history.".

Uhhhhhhh...........ok.......... I'm sure that Lexus can make good use of this bit of insightful knowledge in their future planning.

Why do you people care so much about what others think of you. Just go on your merry way and do as you wish. In what way will people gauking at your car improve your life? Some people need a little Dr Phil therapy.

This is exactly the problem Lexus has, there is no passion with the product or the people running out to buy one, no more so than buying a blender, and buying a car takes a little smarts and a lot of passion. You make a 'smart' decision buying a dishwasher or vaccum cleaner..appliances, and for some people that passion is what counts when buying a car. As someone said then why not just buy a Toyota.. (I think Lexus would disagree with your premise that it is just a smart decision, their marketing department is trying like heck to build passion, thats what sells cars)

You guys may say "who cares what others think about what you drive". The fact that you guys constantly frequent this site telling everyone how great Lexus is or your Lexus purchase decision was and how Lexus really is as good or better than x,y or z is exactly the same...you want to be recognized for your 'smart' decisions and you care so much that you become fanatic on every one of these topics. If you really just bought a Lexus as a "it makes me happy and don't care what anyone thinks" why all the effort to debate? I say its because you want that recognition driving down the street and do care that Lexus is thought of as a second tier wannabe, which in turn reflects on you. No matter how much you say otherwise, your actions speak volumes.

It's not so much of them forcing the opinion, they just want some respect, which the lot of you refuses to give to them, causing a snowball effect. Continued baseless attacks against Lexus and the people who buy them will undoubtedly garner some kind of response.

Lexus is only second tier in the minds of those behind the wheel of the Bimmers and Benzes. It's a coping mechanism that makes them feeling better about paying thousands of more dollars on their car than the equally-luxurious, more reliable Lexus that their neighbor has. At some point we all care what people think of us. Have someone make incessant insensitive remarks about BMW or Mercedes being "second-best" and see how you respond.

BMW4EVER,

BMW was one of the first companies to offer free maintenance plan!
Can you guess why?

You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out!

Even the guys @ my former BMW dealership used to tell me why it was! Its an open secret!

The same reason why Hyundai began offering 10 year warranties, because everyone had an image of them as being unreliable garbage.

You are correct sir.

Audi was the first ...

what is the problem about offering free routine maint to a luxury car buyer? I fail to see the flaw in this thinking.

Just to reiterate,

The issue at hand here is NOT whether or not the product is good like some other brands trying to up its image worldwide, just the brand's image.

Another point,

Lexus does NOT need to win over the quote-on-quote "enthusiasts" in order to increase their image either. The "enthusiast" community is a separate entity altogether. For example, it did not take "fashion enthusiasts" to up Louis Vuitton's image. All these ways are fine, but not mutually exclusive. There are many things that a brand can do to up its image (i.e. hire a great designer, introduce a cool new technology, -->market<--, etc.)

so is that why lexus came out with the IS350 or IS-f? I thought they are trying to directly target the performance market or " enthusiast" which you state Lexus doesnt do.

I said they do NOT NEED TO win over the "enthusiasts" in order to enhance their premium luxury image. I can't help it if the brand WANTS TO make a performance car. Lexus doing the IS is simply a new venture for them in terms of overall brand expansion. Besides, the IS hasn't won over the "enthusiast community" anyway, has it? Unless you care to disagree, I doubt it though...

M3 ... what is the lease payment on a Lexus Rx these days? You state the lease payments on an IS compared to a 3-series, which one? How bout how much less your GS lease is to a 5-series or E-class? How bout how much less your monthly payment of a LS is vs the BMW 7-series or S-class?

Before you speak about leases make sure you understand the difference between fact and fiction ..... ps. I work for BMW and Mercedes

Besides this Toyota we are talking about just look at their achievements in the last 50 years or so!
So why all the negativity!

The Euros have great heritage and achievements also, but why condemn Lexus for being so Ambitious.

Of course the brands image is important. That is why I say that BMW going downmarket with the 1 series in North America will hurt its premium image.
Every badge whore will want one because they will be inexpensive relative to
other models. It will be even worse for them when they see how cheaply made it will be compared to any Lexus model.

One more thing, Rupert,

"... but Lexus caters to a different market, a market for people who don't like cars."

This outrageous statement has been made before. Just what exactly do Lexus owners not like about cars? More importantly, why are they buying a car?

as do the ignorant lexus posters. I wasnt bashing lexus in my first comments nor in any of my later statements. I am bashing the ignorant lexus posters who somehow think that all Lexus needs to do to compete with Rolls is to build a more expensive car. That is ignorant at its best. Heritage, History, Status, Pedigree, Influence, Opulence, Exclusivity is what makes a ROLLS a ROLLS.

Lexus builds a great car. They have helped refocus Mercedes, BMW and other makes into improving their cars. Just the same as Mercedes, BMW and other makes have helped Lexus strive to improve. My whole statement about this article, is I believe it would be a mistake for Lexus to try and move into the Ultra-Luxury Segment. They should improve what they do best. Build more models that offer a wider variety of choices that enhance and show the luxury they offer.

Will ... when you said this "I don't care about image, I don't care about history, I don't care about "prestige." I don't care about how other people perceive me when I stroll through town in a Lexus."

Isnt this kind of hypocritical. why would you need to spend the extra money on a Lexus when you can buy just as good of a car in a Toyota or Honda, that is just as reliable. Honda & Toyota dont emit any status. Why not just buy that kind of car? I mean if you dont care about history, image or how other people perceive you. I beg to differ. I believe that when you drive in your Lexus that you feel a pinch better than the person driving around in their 10yr old honda or toyota. You probably feel you have earned something better and you deserve something nicer.

^^^That's all true, but still has nothing to do with history, "prestige," or the "image" that the car somehow magically projects on to me.

If you continued to read some of my other comments, you would have noted that I said that in general I like what cars represent in other aspects such as technology, and luxury. These are the aspects of a vehicle that inspire me, NOT how other people perceive me.

A 10 year-old Honda does NOT have the refinement of my $70K Lexus, but either way, I do not, nor would not care what people thought of me behind the wheel of either car. That is the point I am trying to get across. This is opposed to the attitude around here that somehow I am less of a person because my vehicle doesn't have "prestige" or a "history."

I bought the $70K Lexus a) because I liked its understated and elegant look, b) because the interior was supremely luxurious, c) because of all the wonderful benefits of Lexus service and d) because I could afford to. This is not to say that I could not afford an S-Class, or that I did not want to buy a Toyota Avalon, I could do either, it was my personal preference, not based off of "image," "history" or "prestige." Is this clear yet? I really do not know what else to say on this matter.

So you would be happy with your LS and a 3.0 V6?

XDrive,

Because I bought a $70K Lexus.

Rupert,

Yes.

So do you think Lexus is making a slight mistake in not offering a small engine that would still have equal appeal? GS250, IS200, LS300, RX300?
and I know there already was an RX300.

Lexus is an American-centric brand. We don't think twice about choosing a hefty V8. No doubt if there were an LS330, I would have bought it.

Now that Lexus has gone global, once they realize that you Euros prefer smaller engines and diesels, I'm sure they'll send some your way.

There is a difference between buying something you like because you like it, versus buying something because you think others will like it.

Lexus has always been an alternative car line to the Germans.

Some people want a stylish, well built, well equipped car that might not have as much snob appeal as its competitors.

Not everyone feels a need to wear their financial status on their sleeve.

Lexus has done alot for the industry and made Mercedes and Cadillac and others better in the process. But no matter what they try they will never truly be a heritage luxury brand.

43LE,

It's not "perspective." It's called DENIAL.

Whoops, same person, wrong reply.

i know my point exactly and then they come and say that lexus fans are stupid and think their the best and you guys just keep trying to put lexus down.

Hey! Agent009, what has Lexus done to you, you seem to be hating them very much? is because Agent001 got a really price on his Lexus LS460L and you did not? is that why you hate Lexus so much? what is your problem man?

I write good and bad about all makes, it is simply telling both sides of the story. However as I have said about 1000 times before only the Lexus guys give me grief for negative comments about their brand.

This article actually was written in a favorable light by the author about how Lexus is transforming its image to be more upscale. A favorable thing actually, however as you can tell some people take that as an insult that Lexus might want to improve its stature at all. I have no clue as to why you would want to "limit" improvement in whatever context but evidently some think that shouldn’t strive to be better.

Go figure on that philosophy.

I am a Lexus fan, you don't see bash German brand all the time. In fact I think Audi RS4 look really good, and so is the Audi TT. The Cadillac CTS is a really good looking car too. See it not that hard to say nice thing about other brands, now you try;)

Given what the Lexus marketing manager said, I think they think they need one. At the present moment, I do not believe Lexus has the stand alone styling required to be considered “fashionable”, that is not to say that they will not at some point in the future. I think one of the things they should start with it making their cars more on the ….svelte side of things. I’ve resigned myself to being de-boosted over that comment so go right ahead. In addition, I don’t think the demographic that purchases Lexus cares about how fashionable or not any car is- I don’t believe it is high on their decision hierarchy.

People shouldn’t delude themselves; the Neiman Marcus thing is not a first. I have seen them sell Mercedes SLK, I think it was they who sold that Louis Vuitton SL with the exceedingly hideous interior.

I own more Prada than I care to admit to myself [probably 75% of my wardrobe, literally] and can think of no reason that I would associate it, or any other brand, with Lexus, or any other car company. Even if Lexus had Prada do their interiors it wouldn’t change my decision in cars.

Instead of imitating the German designs, Toyota should bring over their original designs that are only available in Japan and some Asian countries.

For example, the Toyota Century is a luxury sedan that has loads of luxury features and a huge V12 engine. It also has a distinctive Japanese design that would shut the mouths of the people who always say that Toyota's a copycat.

Check out the Toyota Century V12 by clicking the following links:
http://toyota.jp/century/index.html
http://toyota.jp/century/dynamism/engin/index.html

...Every conversation I have ever heard the Century does not point out its "disinctive styling, so called, usually the antithesis is expressed. I suggest you look at a oh... 1988 Bentley Arnage or even 1990 to 1995.

Be that as it may, I recall reading about the Century years ago and some people within the company were posed with the question of why they only sell it in Japan. Their rather frank response was that only a Japanese person would pay around $100,000.00 [I think it was actually $90,000.00 in the article] for a Toyota. This car, I can guarantee, will not be sucessful in the United States anyway with that design. Besides, did I see fabric seats?

Or maybe it was $120,000.00...I really don't remember.

Regarding the sports sedan, Toyota should just bring over this good looking Crown Athlete. Rebadge it as a Lexus, and drop the BMW inspired GS.

http://toyota.jp/crownathlete/index.html

Furthermore, bring over the ultra luxury Alphard minivan, rebadge it as a Lexus, and sell it as the most luxurious minivan in the U.S.

http://toyota.jp/alphardg/index.html

These moves would give Lexus a pretty good looking make over :)

You honestly want a Lexus vehicle to resemble the Toyota Century? It's a nice car, believe me, but in no way a vehicle I want to see.

Speaking of the Toyota Century, it defies a lot of myths here on this site. Many have said that Lexus will never take off in Japan. They say the Japanese will not buy just "rebadged Toyotas." We know today that this just is not true. In Japan, the Toyota Century is just as prestigious and comparable to a Rolls Royce or any Bentley, so the Japanese do buy and respect ultra-luxury products from their own.

Also, the Toyota Crown was the basis for the Lexus GS, and also was the styling inspiration behind the LS forever.

Regardless of what they did, these attitudes about Lexus not being much of anything compared to the Germans would still exist. Lexus could reskin any of those cars and sell them here, but what difference would it make? Lexus's North American products are just as good as any Japanese equivalent. Personal styling choices are of course, subjective.

As long as Lexus always has at least one or two cheap luxury cars, I see no reason they shouldn't give themselves a more upscale name. But they shouldn't turn their back on the reason they made it big (cheap alternatives to European cars). That's just ignorant.

lexus made it big because of two camry-based cars: ES and RX.
those two cars are 2/3 of sales.

What percentage of sales are attributed to the 3 series in North America?

Mercedes retains the majority of their sales through E-Class fleet sales, and the A- and B-Classes.

So?

Can you show where you got this from? I am surprised that the A and B are doing that well..I would have thought their sales were more from the C and E..

It's no secret that the E-Class is the best-selling Mercedes model. The C-Class is getting up there as more Americans realize they can get the badge for even less car and $$$.

about 50% of BMW sales are 3-series.
and it's a fantastic car. not pretending to be anything other than a great compact sport sedan.

unlike the ES for example which is based on an $18,000 economy car.

I dare anybody to sit in an ES, and than a 3 series and judge which one seems more like an $18,000 economy car. The upcoming 1 Series will only further BMW's pursuit of an econo image.

I don't understand this argument at all. Even the Toyota Camry betters the BMW 3-Series in a number of ways. Compared to a Lexus ES, the 3er's shortcomings are only further unjustified by its price.

you'll both take a camry and ES over a 3-series.
that pretty much ends the conversation.
it's cool that you buy based on reliability and comfort.
i buy on style and performance.

so we'll never like the same cars.
just leave it at that.

That's not true, I like the looks of the BMW 3 series, I just think it is way over priced for what you get. I think that anybody who gets emotional over the
handling and "soul" of an automobile should get the hankies out and watch another episode of The Young and the Restless.

they don't do E-class fleet sales in the US. only in europe.
but the E still outsells the GS in the US by more than 2 to 1.

What is TruenoAE86 on?

That Century, (complete with cheesy badging) looks like it is from the 1970's.

Also, the 'Athlete' and 'Alphard' are ugly and dated, and no-where near the GS in terms of quality or design.

I've seen these cars in real life and they are unremarkable, with all the aura of a bigger Camry.

Oh, and the day that Century has ANYTHING on Bentley or Rolls-Royce.... ...well that day hasn't happened yet.

i'm jumping in late on this thread.

in response to the free service the german lux brands offer(ed)...

i agree, like hyundai's 10-yr warranties, it was to BOLSTER CONFIDENCE that got badly eroded due to reliability issues.

for every $1 lexus spends on warranties, mb has to shell out $18!

woe to owners who fail to trade before the warranties expire! ;)

(i suppose while audi and bmw still offer free maintenance, mb NO LONGER can AFFORD to?)

further, CR revealed that '06 ML v8 models already have more issues, on average, than '98 LS400s.

other mb models were more reliable, but NONE were of "average" reliability. hence, CR recommends all of zero, ZIP, nada mb models to the new car buyer.

well, at least they still have "heritage" to sell to the loyal sheep.

Its called "engineered obsolescence", or at least that is what we call it. If your cars last too long, and what people see on the road are older versions, then you can actually be inducing brand image problems. In addition, there is little reason to foster brand loyalty if they don't break and won't be replaced- it does you no good at least in a direct sense. Unfortunatly, it really isn't a way to make money.

Making cars that are extremely reliable only makes sense if you can expand your cusomer base by selling new vehicles. At whatever point you may saturate the market and then you are in trouble. That may never happen because people who are new to the market, or people who simplly want a newer vehicle.

Well that's a new one!!!

It's not wise to engineer cars too reliable or people will think negatively about the brand?!?!

No matter what, consumers will always look for the highest-quality products, that will never change. Case in point --> Lexus.

Will, how in the world can you say that? You are in the midst of this lunatic asylum known as car fanatic central. Do you think the BMW people care about reliability? They care about performance. Not everyone shares your particular decision hierarchy. Not everyone does the economics. Not everyone cares about the economics: I don't. In the past 3.5 or so years I [correction: my parents] have spent enough money MAINTAINING my car, that if I had it I could purchase a brand new Toyota Camry. That is not an exaggeration either.

That I think is a point that many people have tried to express on there, and that I think Lexus knows: they are not really emotional vehicles. Most people who own them buy them based upon some type of rational means- i.e. based upon their reliability. This is honestly not a conversation I want to get into.

For some, the fact that they can own an unreliable vehicle is a sign of affluence. It is a sign of disposable income: that is the origin of the two Jag joke.

The point incidentally, is that with reliability through time comes an increasingly aging road population. That is what people will begin to associate with your brand your cars will not be precived as modern at all. I, personally think Volvo is a good example. What do people think of when they think of the Volvo brand? Does the word "boxy" come to mind. Although I am not so sure that is what you actually see on the roads anymore. I seem to see a larger number of the newer ones.

I don't understand how you can sit there and type all that after Mercedes-Benz came to fame from building vehicles like tanks. If Mercedes reliability was still up to par with Lexus's I truly doubt you would have stated any of that and expect people to believe it. Volvo's most popular design theme has very little to do with the fact that their vehicles used to be built like tanks too.

Thank you though for shedding light on yet another reasoning the European car fans are using nowadays. This information is always useful to know. Superb reliability is a BAD thing for a brand image-wise. I guess this is why Mercedes and BMW stopped delivering on that front?

I am not saying that reliability is bad necessarily, it has the possibility of producing a consequence which is detrimental to the brand image. Simply because the average person does not read car magazines and does not know much about cars. As such, peoples image of a brand is defined through whatever experience they have with it. If you produce cars that last significantly longer, then the experience of these people with the brand will be with cars that are older. Its really an association. As a matter of fact, all brand images are based upon association. When a person sees an older car "It's well built" isn't something that leaps to mind. That is really just not the way people think.

I'm not saying Lexus actually has this particular problem, simply that it is a possiblity.

As far as Mercedes, you know, I really don't see a large number of the older ones anymore. I see far larger numbers of c-classes.

As far as the last bit: don't expect rationality out of everyone, especially when in comes to cars. A car for many people is more that just a machine that goes from A to B. It represents their values, their financial situation, and the family they grew up in et alia. People are generally not rational when it comes to that. In particualar men.

You must be on something if you stand by the weak argument that BMW's reliability is just as good as Lexus's. Yes it may be exaggerated at times but that is due in part because of general consensus. It may be of no dire concern to you, and that's fine, but don't frown upon people who take that into consideration. Having a car withstand the test of time USED to be a great thing. Now, thanks to the Germans, apparently it is a bad thing. Shame really.

enough with reliability!!
all cars are pretty damn reliable today.
they get you from A to B.
boring.

what are you...75 year old ladies? we're talking cars, not toaster ovens.

you people on here are ridiculous in your arguements. The only arguement lexus has is its reliability. Will ... that is the basis of your whole arguement. Just a little insight, the average consumer keeps a car 2 to 3 years before they get another new car. How much does reliability impact a persons decision? Not very much. If you were keeping a car 7, 8 & 9 years then you may have an arguement and reliabitlity would be a difference. MOST PEOPLE DONT. I bet if we did research on the subject that 75% of the population keep their cars 2 to 3 years. So, do you have any other arguement for Lexus? Lexus doesnt build anything that is truly special. The build really nice smooth driving luxury cars.

I love it how the Lexus fanatics on here bring up how great their cars are. When was the last time Lexus won a comparison test vs BMW?

Driving a Lexus is like sitting on a nice leather couch, both of which if you had to move suddeenly would create disorientation. Lexus cars feel like they are falling asleep when you drive them. They are nice cars but not for me.

When you spend that kind of money on a car, for Heaven's sake a knob should not fall off or electricals should not malfunction.

Ah, I was wondering when the Auto Oprichniki would show up.

Not according to Consumer Reports. There are a lot of cars people should avoid paying big money for, unless of course, they are badge whores.

knob's dont just fall off .... david you are an idiot ..

GM did the same thing. remember back in the day when mb and gm cars were regarded as "tanks"? it took maybe a decade for the public to realize the cost cutting. and fanboys think companies pay CR for biased reviews. please =/....

I did. The ES beat it hands down in my book.

I did. The ES beat it hands down in my book.

"When was the last time a Lexus won a comparison test?"

So now we resort to taking the opinions of random car journalists seriously as fact?

Here's a question:
When was the last time a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi topped a reliability report? When was the last time BMW or Mercedes got tops in customer satisfaction?

Go ahead, call CR and JDP "unreliable sources." I say they are no less "reliable" than C&D, R&T, and MT.

the last test of the previous gen LS won its test against all the german marques and the ford/jaguar. won it easily too. and patrick bedard was the writer.having owned that car I can say that it was the finest car I will ever drive. and fast.

"Reliability" is NOT the "only argument Lexus fans have." If you cannot figure that out from the various comments in this thread alone then you are simply ignorant.

Let’s also realize that 'reliability' on most cars today is quite good. The fact that Lexus has one of the highest is worthy of praise but that does not mean a BMW or Benz or Audi is terrible, far from it. You Lexus guys hang your hat on reliability, and justifiably so, but its time you move on.. You fail to understand that "magic" is passion, performance, history, design, technology rolled into a very emotional decision when buying a car and its important.

The problem Lexus has is that the fans here reinforce this STERILE image on every one of these threads, touting the 'smart' decision and little more, criticizing the emotional, fun, energetic reasons behind all other brands, poking fun at the ‘magic’. I have come to learn that the main points to make about Lexus are ‘reliability’ and ‘smart/value’ what else is there? What have I missed, expand your discussions. Image is important, like it or not and Lexus has a way to go to be thought of as an equal to some formidable brands. Some of you even say you buy a Lexus and don’t care what others think or the image it portrays; that’s bull. Here you are justifying your smart decisions day in and out debating a the issue, telling us how reliable your machine is…and how much less you spent for it..

I want more than just a smart decision or a glitzy marketing campaign, I want the passion, the magic, and if it means a few more trips to the dealer a year, so what? Really so what!! This reliability issue is insignificant because the reliability problems are not significant. Its just not. I think its time for the discussions to move away from this dead horse and focus on something, anything else…please. I for one would like to hear something about Lexus other than that, its like telling me the sky is blue..I know, I know, and I believe…next.

All great, however as a Lexus owner, image is NOT my main concern. You just admitted that it is higher on your list of priorities when considering a car. That's fine by me. But telling me this and then constantly criticizing Lexus fans for that very same reason is also ridiculous and redundant. German cars have "magic" blah blah. We know that. Give us another reason as to why we should feel bad for not choosing to buy one? you guys wont take anything seriously. This is the biggest problem here, NOT Lexus fans chiming in about their cars, that's what this site is supposed to be about. Why are we not allowed to do that without some jerk trying to reinforce your RUDE and EGOTISTICAL opinions of Lexus being nothing? Lexus may not appeal to you but that does not entitle you to ridicule everything and everyone associated with the brand. Calm your nerves, learn some self-control, and respect other people's opinions.

Well said, Will. Kind of hard to reason with a guy whose last name is suck, isn't it? LOL

The IS350 is only one model and a relatively new addition to the lineup. Historically Lexus vehicles have not been stellar performer. That is changing but they have to overcome the stigma.

The discussion typically centers around how right the Lexus owners were for buying the reliability king and the Euro guys touting dynamics.

Both camps are right it all depends on your priorities .

dynamics is bs. the german brands are older which means nothing. what real advantage does benz have over lexus? driving dynamics is equalized by poor reliability. bmw has driving dynamics qualized by cheap interiors and silly electronics based ergonomics or as others say idrive. but they have a push button start that needs a key inserted. this makes sense? looks are subjective so they dont matter: who buys a car solely because of the way it looks? all of these cars are in the same class in america. do you want to see the way the bmws and benzes are sold in europe? do you really? with all the stripped versions and silly category names? they are only sold one way in america relative to europe: LOADED yet even those cars pale in comparison to what you get when you buy even the 'stripped' lexus. and yeah the es 350 is a camry. and the rx is a toyota in japan [harrier] and the sc 430 is a [japanese] toyota [soarer]. the bmw 5 series is a o police car and taxi in germany and so is the e class. maybe it would be better if people posting had to register VIN's to be able to comment on specific brands. most of you dont own any of these brands and never will.

Guys, the title of the thread was about whether Lexus needs an image makeover... and where did the conversations go? Right back to "my Lexus is reliable" and its a smart choice and personal attacks and brand bashing....thats the image I have of Lexus; its just not a mature image. Its not a criticism of the cars or your right to buy one for those reasons, its a criticism mostly of the posters who just reinforce the bland and immature image over and over. The image I have of Lexus comes from many of the fans here, the articles and primarily the Lexus marketing machine and I tell ya, the image is not what the brand should be embracing if they want to expand. I think they need to move away from this image enhancement with product associations (Prada, LV, leather goods!), the Hollywood placement, (which feels to me like buying your way in and not earning it) and focus on something to show that they have a passion for what they produce, don’t allow the marketing group to be the dominant image creator…let the designers and engineers show their stuff first, create a technology that impresses everyone, not a gimmick for the marketing group…when they develop that, then you can place your product appropriately.

Nobody should feel bad for buying a BRAND and not another. These are chocolate/vanilla decisions, no right answer. The discussion is how Lexus should move forward with their brand identity in order to grow. The answer is not by touting reliability ALONE..and it should not be by dismissing the 'magic' which encompasses design, technology, passion, safety, but by embracing it, Lexus needs its own magic. I know ‘blah blah’ magic, but until someone understands what that is, reliability will get you nowhere.

How can you say Lexus does not encompass design, technology, passion and safety? If this is the "magic" you refer to, Lexus obviously posesses all of these traits.

Reliability has gotten Lexus nowhere?

Lexus has gotten to where they are BECAUSE of reliability.

The is250 and 350 are based on the GS chassis. Not a toyota.

you are correct.
the IS/GS are the one chassis that is unique to lexus.

I started working for Lexus in 1995 and also spent 4 yrs with BMW. Having represented both, I can see the BMW fans argument about Lexus being a fancy Toyota givin that it does have that parent company. You need to keep in mind that the BMW buyer is after performance and the Lexus buyer is after nicer leather, wood, fit & finish, etc. I must admit that over the years it has become obvious that in order to keep price point down to compete with Lexus sales, you'll notice the Germans start to use cheaper materials such as plastics, brushed aluminum, etc, which takes away from the luxuriousness of the product. I have noticed that alot of first time luxury car buyers will go with either BMW or Mercedes because of the name alone. After a couple years of ownership, they then switch over to Lexus because the novelty of driving a Beemer or Benz wears off and they are left with a car that although nice, isn't that "luxurious". We get far more german cars traded in here at Lexus than I ever got Lexus traded in for Beemers....go figure.

...erm..I don't usually go for the Devil's advocate position but is not the LS dash made of platic? Admittedly, I do not recall actually feeling it the last I looked at the LS: in my mind there was no doubt as to its origin. There is not a single stitch of leather on it that I recall. As a person who drives an English car, I can say that for me, there was not enough wood in the LS for my tastes. Although, I must say that I do feel that they did a fairly nice job on the structure of the door panels themselves and the layout of the materials thereon.

Oh wonderful: I knew that would happen. Anataxis is me. I created the account because you can't take back boosts, either positive or negative, that you have made. I'm not infallible and sometimes I think better of my boosting.

I would like it to be known that I don't go about boosting myself all the time: I know this will be the automatic assuption. At times I've used it to boost entire threads after somebody has deboosted everyone on there for some reason.

lexusrep--

"car buyers will go with either BMW or Mercedes because of the name alone. After a couple years of ownership, they then switch over to Lexus because the novelty of driving a Beemer or Benz wears off and they are left with a car that although nice, isn't that "luxurious". We get far more german cars traded in here at Lexus than I ever got Lexus traded in for Beemers....go figure."


were many of the trades due to their getting tired of the maintenance/REPAIR costs?

were many out of warranty?