All conquering german "magic feel" just a myth

reliability again? snore. wake me up when this conversation is over.

People like you, who cannot see the big picture and focus on one item, will believe that. Read the whole article and the winners list, and become enlightened.

Desperate fool! What a stupid title!

Always rely on ApexAlex to feed us this uneducated propaganda.

This article really has nothing to do with German cars at all, and the cars that did win 'best driver' were mainly affordable sports cars. What a surprise!

Regardless of origin, one would logically assume a sports car would be a 'better driver' (ie more fun) than the luxury cars that are mainly mentioned on Autospies.

To engineer such a misleading and irrelevant title speaks volumes for ApexAlex's insecure nature.

do you guys even know who lives in Norfolk? It's like a blown-into-a-village retirement home...

There's a phrase doctors use in England for mental patients: NFN

normal for norfolk.

it is a weird place...

zaza...

Last-gen 5 Series? CHEAP? Are you out of your mind? The last-gen BMWs were right up there with Audi in terms of quality of materials and design executions. Admittedly, the current 5 is a disappointment on the inside... but I think the other models are very well-put together and attractive.

I don't understand why you wouldn't like Mercedes any more, just because they're unreliable. You don't have to OWN one, just admire them. You don't think Ferraris break down every month? People still admire them!

E-Class, CLK, CLS, S, SL, CL, ML, GL, G... all beautiful.

BTW, it WOULD make sense that a '98 LS is more reliable than an '06 ML!

There are two reasons...

1. The ML is a new-for-2005 or 2006 vehicle, if I'm right. Many luxury manufacturers find hiccups in the electronics of their cars in the first year or two out, and correct them for later model years. For this reason, it wouldn't be surprising if your neighbor's '06 ML500's navigation system broke. And, what about the ML350?

2. Complication. Do you think the 1998 Lexus LS400 had anywhere near as much technology as the 2006 Mercedes-Benz ML500? I think not. It had a frigging wired car phone!

Did you even read my reasoning?

Did it ever occur to you that a 1998 LS400 is probably also more reliable than a 2007 LS460?

"The IS much more beautiful then the C class. and i don't like the E class much either. the GS in my opinion is much sexier. i'd take the new LS over the S class as well. i also don't think the SL is that much better then the SC 430"

1. I didn't mention the C in my list of beautiful Mercedes models, did I? I like the IS better.

2. E is an opinion. I love this midsizer, especially the E550 Sport. I would never call the GS "sexy." From many angles, it's ungainly, as opposed to the E's taut, sophisticated lines. The GS needs the hybrid's wheels to look good.

3. LS vs. S, also an opinion. There's not much separating the two, except for the S's mind-blowing style, and the LS's self-park system. I prefer the S, but that doesn't mean I don't like the LS.

Toyota quality is a myth as well. Plenty have been recalled in the past two years.

Plus, the British are so biased to English cars (in comparisons) that it isn't even funny.

"Magic feel." Lol.

That phrase never fails no make me chuckle!

Yeah, and I'm positive it was coined by a Lexus fan as a way of taking the mickey out of European car drivers.

Will,

Can you not empathize with the enthusiasts who appreciate a certain 'feel' from there car or do you just hate the stupid terms coined by these said enthusiasts?

I to find these terms funny and only summed up in words like 'magic feel' by people interested in debate and pride and less in actually driving, and enjoying driving.

Josh

p.s. I keep running the term 'magic feel' through my head as if it had to be used in a sentence during a spelling bee.

If I recall correctly, it was a German patriot who used "magic feel" to describe their passion towards their BMW over a Lexus. Will was the one however, who picked up on it and quoted it heavily ever since, making it a popular phrase among this community.

Anywho, there is nothing wrong with you believing your car has more appeal, soul, or "magic" than the next car, but do not go around insulting people and then expect the "magic" argument to hold any water.

exactly.

just as religious fanatics who cannot convince others (or even themselves) with RATIONAL, LOGICAL arguments, have fall back on JUST "faith," so too does "magic feel" become the last resort argument of why "german handling" is "always" superior.

note "...Subaru's Forester SUV up in 11th place, with owners rating it better to drive than an Alfa GT or Mercedes SLK."

and Formula, this part of the article IS about driving dynamics, NOT just reliability. which is in another section.

"...but Germans respond topping the Japanese in reliability."

with all of ONE model. most of the others are middling or near the BOTTOM.

The boosting system is getting shitter everyday...... so bad that anyone who says the truth gets deboosted by some fanboys and everyone speaking shit out of their a$$es get boosted....

Anyways the title is so misleading, the whole article doesnt even mention magic feel. I think its something normal for a small sports car to handle better than a sport luxury car, so this article is just pointless, and the main reason it was posted is to start flame wars.....

"But it was a car from the continent rather than the far East that topped the reliability chart. The BMW X3 chugs dependably into first place, with owners finding the SUV's engine and gearbox as sturdy as a rhinoceros bouncer. "

Wow looks like all those japanese cars were spanked badly by the X3..... and as formula1 said "BMW just showed the finger to the entire Lexus team. " nicely said.

"Down at the bottom end, the old-shape Mercedes-Benz A-Class is officially your worst drive. Combining a ride as smooth as George Clooney's chin with the handling abilities of BA's baggage staff, the A-Class just pips the Kia Rio to the last spot."

Wow big deal! I dont think the A class was designed to be sporty.... as all of you should know!
BMW isnt even mentioned, and nor is Lexus or any other luxury maker.... which is obvious because they are heavy, while the BMW handles soo well for a luxury car.

AlexApex, stop hating and find something new, your titles are always misleading.


Go go BMW, "magic feel" rocks! ;)


///M53R

Magic feel is something BMWs, Porsches, Ferraris, Nobles, Lotus' and some Subarus have. It is the brilliant steering, and that's it.
Lexus, Mercedes and Audi (plus all other car makers) do not have magic feel, due to more comfort-biased or electric-based steering.

Don't be ridiculous, Mercedes doesn't have good steering, they're renouned for the vauge, wooden steering. There isn't a single Mercedes vehicle that outhandles its BMW rival.

I leave for a week on holiday only to find all hell breaking loose.

I thought we all had an agreement to put aside our brand loyalty and look towards proper logic and reasoning in discussing things so subjective.

I just drove 15 hours in my Japanese STi rated somewhat good on the scale. When Monday morning came around I chose my 1991 318is to drive to work. As much as I appreciate the intensity of the STi sometimes the simple, straight forward front engine, rear drive, layout is just better. I don't mean better in a numbers way, I mean better in the way you can't describe. It's the turn in, the NA power on mid corner, and the quick rev matches that make the obviously slower drive still as fun as the much faster intense STi drive.

The above observation obviously reflects my desires as a driver. I love speed, grip, and intensity, but the feel of the car ultimately trumps those qualities. Sharp reflexes, strapping muscles, and massive grip often times wear off and what you get is a bulked up subaru, with a techno diff that you have to drive to fast on the streets to have any fun.

Josh

p.s. You might be asking why I even own the STi. For the track :)

I will reply to my own comment by saying that just because you like the 'feel' of a car doesn't mean others will. I have found myself aligned with some of BMW's earlier cars, some of there newer cars, some japanese cars, and some other german cars, and many british cars. This means I like those cars, and prefer them over the other cars.

I, I, and I doesn't mean that you have to agree, or that I care if you agree, or want you to agree. If you like the way a LS, GS, SC, or IS drives then that is fine, and it can be fine because I am not the automaker competing for your business, or a shareholder(of any significance), I am a consumer interested in satisfying my needs, and I will cross almost any brand to make that happen.

Josh

p.s. The more a car company creates product that is aligned with my needs the more likely it is that I will go back to that company, and favor them based upon my experience, but to think they are owed something like our undying loyalty is asinine.

I agree with everything you just said.

So basically it sounds logical that we should all agree that logic and reasoning is applied to our judgments and there is little to no reason to argue such subjective things.

Lets stick to arguing about reliability... and safety :)

I am just kidding I am glad to hear you guys agree, but your really just saying. HEY WERE NOT ASS HATS LIKE THE REST OF THESE GUYS.

Josh

so do i.

i started this thread mainly because of the snobs who think any car WITHOUT magic feel is simply not worthy. and that NO jap car could EVER have it.

that's why it caught my eye that the Subaru Forester (an SUV!) was rated as a better driver than the mb SLK! i KNEW that would be seen as blasphemy by some.

but hey, that's what TopGear's owners said. not me.

incidentally, TopGear's survey summarized reports from 50,000 owners. they don't specify if these are all owner of NEW CARS only. which seems probable.

CR's surveys summarize reports from 1,300,000 vehicles, from 1 up to 6 years of age.

X3s are ok for the FIRST year, then go downhill. they do especially poorly with body integrity and hardware, power equipment and audio system.

even the engine starts having minor troubles by age 3. tranny remains "average." most 6 year old toyotas rate better than 2 year old X3s, across the board on ALL systems, from engine, major to audio system.

so if TopGear's surveys covered MORE than just new cars, the germans would STILL be skunked on reliability.

i would definitely take the forrester over the SL even if money were no object. who wouldn't?

TheSailor: "Somebody who pays 100k for a car is probably going to be more critical and demand way more than somebody who payed 20k for a car and is going to want way more to give the same rating... That is only logical!"


that argument has been posited before. it is neither inherently logical, NOR CORRECT!

CR has found that Corvette owners are amongst the most loyal, with 89% of owners willing to buy another. this degree of loyalty is exceeded only by Prius owners, at 92%.

corvettes generally cost TWICE what priuses cost.

yet the problem rate (as REPORTED BY OWNERS) of corvettes is some SIX TIMES that of priuses.

porsches also have loyal owners, and i doubt if there are ANY true enthusiasts here who would NOT want one. (i however, would want one ONLY if i had deep pockets for maintenance and repairs; a pair of 'em sucked by brother dry.) and porsches ALSO have terrible reliability records.

so to argue that people who PAY MORE for their cars EXPECT MORE and are more critical, yes that could possibly be argued. but then WHY DO THEY SETTLE FOR MORE PROBLEMS and maintenance COSTS?

more likely, they ACCEPT lower reliability and higher repair and maintenance costs.

but they DO NOT COMPLAIN about it, accepting it as part of the package for their preferred choice.

so your argument is 180 degrees OFF. they may well (and probably do) have MORE problems, but they will either play them down or underreport the "issues!"