Lexus Exec says "short shopping list and we're not on it"

Read this for more about the article.

http://www.autospies.com/news/2008-Lexus-LS-600hL-Hybrid-Slower-and-Uses-More-Fuel-than-Lexus-LS-460-14420/

Ouch, I dont know how the Lexus fanboys are going to defend this one.

What is there to defend. Are you just looking for a flame war. Of course there will be one since this is a Lexus article. The statement is quite clear that Lexus isn't considered the same as the higher end luxury models, so Lexus is trying to correct the lack of products in that category.

Again I suppose your just looking for a flame war, no?

I wouldn't call me a "Lexus fanboy" but I have owned a few. And I'm slated to buy a LS 600hL. This is disappointing performance all around. So I hope it is wrong. I believe the gas mileage specs would qualify it as a gas guzzler (under the new EPA ratings). You just can't be green/Hybrid and get penalized as a gas guzzler! But I'll wait and see. For sure, it appears that the one I would purchase would have to have the "Active Stabilization" system option.

raydata:

you're right about the gas guzzler issue. anything with combined EPA under 22.5 gets hit. the car is turning out to be the height of hypocrisy.

i'm assuming you didn't have to put a non-refundable deposit, so you can still get out. if you love the car, buy a base LS460 and then buy a prius for your daily commute with the money leftover.

Hey Kart, a flame war is going to happen either way. I am just very suprised at the poor review the LS recieved. If you recall the discussions about the LS600 you would know note that the Lexus fanboys felt that the LS was going to be the prohpet of all new vehicles. Well it came up short in many aspects, thats all I am pointing out.

is this the final product or its a preproduction version ,i am just curious

So basically, the list of superpowered cars, V12s like the S600, 760Li, and the W12 A8, are something above the regular V8s from Benz, BMW, and Audi. Up till now the LS has been a regular V8, until the LS 600h L.

But there's still no reason to buy it. With the twelve-cylinder S600/760/A8 W12, you get significantly more power, and features that are exclusive to only those models. On the other hand, with the hybrid LS, that's all you get: a badge. It doesn't offer anything the LS460 doesn't. It's no faster than the "normal" LS, either. And, most embarrassing of all: the mileage isn't any better. Bravo, Lexus, for screwing this up major.

As already pointed out:

LS600hL has LS460L doen't

1. world's first LED headlights
2. full leather stitched panel,dash
3. AWD
4. hybrid
5. Pre-collision system with driver monitor system
6. Front and rear active stabilizers
...

As the article proves. The LS 600hl is nothing but a farce. Only a hybrid badge. Much slower than the cometing V12. Actually slower than the LS460, and gets worse fuel economy than the LS460.

competing V12s

People that buy V12 are unlikely the environmentally friendly crowd. This LS hybrid is just the wrong product for the wrong crowd. I totally agree with the "Hard to Justify" section of the article. I would much rather stick with a regular LS if I were to buy a LS.

At least it still had better fuel economy than the BMW 7 Series, MB S-class, and the Audi A8.

Nope, 20/22 is not any better than 18/25 as that is what the A8 has. And it isn't any quicker most likely.

lol. and they're making some MAJOR compromises in horsepower, size, acceleration, styling and prestige for....a few MPG. that trade-off makes no sense.

Wealthy people could care less what they spend at the pump.

It is over hyped and with that mileage difference it is over priced. Its no longer than the 460L so why on earth get the hybrid? for a little better emissions, the different front lights, and the extra weight, this would increase the price to 111,000 or so? it's still cheaper than the S550 starting.

wow. this is embarrassing.

only 2mpg more and slower than its much cheaper sibling the LS460L. and not even in the same ballpark as the S600 in terms of power or acceleration. AND it's 344 pounds heavier than the V12 S600 resulting in handling even less nimble than the LS460.

help me out here....so why would someone buy this car for $111,000 when they could get a fully equipped, faster LS460 for $72,000 ($61,000 base plus the top option package)?

the hybrid badge, you know everyone wants to be a greenie hypocrite.

and that 2mpg advantage is only in the city.
on the highway the base LS460 gets 5mpg MORE than the LS600 hybrid.
what a joke.

This is embarrassing! I surely thought the numbers would have been better like in all their other hybrids...it's definately not worth it.

It weighs almost as much as a Range Rover Sport! LOL!

That trunk is so tiny!

I guess the same logic one uses when they pay a $55,000 difference between an S550 and S600

I've said this before. The LS600h = The new VW Phaeton.

The hybrid badge is just a fad. This car's product impact won't last long after the first initial months. Eventually, it will wither out of public view.

Keep dreaming

Overpriced and Over-hyped

Edmunds compared the 2008 LS hybrid EPA fuel economy ratings with the 2007 LS 460 L ratings, done in 2006. The scales have changed, and the comparison they're making in mpg is likely inaccurate.

I looked at Lexus' site and it quotes the LS 460 to get 19 city 27 highway! So that is not old facts they are using. It's Lexus' websites.

those 19/27 EPA numbers are for the 2007 or 2008 LS460? the numbers change for the '08 model year.

no the new testing method takes effect in 2008 for 2009 model year...

The LS 600h L is also not a gas guzzler, unlike its V12 competitors.

Things to consider before buying an LS hybrid:

It's $33,000 more than the LS460L.

Every feature available on it is available on the LS460L.

It's $33,000 more than the LS460L.

It gets the same (and in some cases, worse) mileage as the LS460L.

It's $33,000 more than the LS460L.

It's no quicker than the LS460L.

It's $33,000 more htan the LS460L.

Really? Wow!!!!!!

Really? Wow!!!!!!

It is not $33,000 more.

LS460L: $71K

LS600hL: $104K

Oh, really?

Where have you seen a BASE MODEL LS460L being sold at MSRP? Remember the first comparison test between all the big luxury sedans? The tester LS460L topped out at $93K.

Even so, the jump from the BASE price of the S550 to the BASE price of the S600 is what?

And, after correcting me on MY analysis, you're using the same incorrect base on S550 vs. S600? The S600 is standard with EVERY ONE of the S550's options- I'm pretty sure the only options are designo and an iPod adapter. If you load up an LS600hL, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes above $130K; that leaves the "value factor" (if you can call it "value") invalid, because there wouldn't be much of a gap between the $142K S600 and $130-140K LS600hL.

Wow kind of quiet on here from Lexus fanboys.....kind of hard to say it's the best when it obviously seems worse than it's cheaper brother the LS 460L PLUS if I have wealth, why do I care how many mpg he thing gets....really I don't see a huge difference like you do when you compare Prius with whatever. Look at how the RX-Hybrid gets better than the regualer one. The numbers to me are not there to justify it. Basically if I were shopping for an LS, I would buy the V8 non hybrid model for sure. Besides if I had weatlh, the other 3 cars the Lexus guy mentioned would more than likely be in my parking garage. My boss has WEALTH and I asked him.... He said why would he buy a fancy Toyota? I said it self parks and all. He laughed and said,"Hell half the time my driver drives, I could give a sh*t if it parks itself or not" So I asked what he would buy, he said, "What I have now, an Audi A8".

atomicbri doesn't think the LS is a fancy Toyota- his BOSS does.

His BOSS obviously doesn't think the A8 is a "fancy VW."

Nor do I. Neither are "fancy" or "re-badged" versions of their parent companies.

Foor $111K, I agree, there won't be too many takers.
The prius is more than enough of a fashion statement to celeberities and CEOs looking to make a green statement.

For $111K, I know where my money would go --- AM Vantage.

Also, buyers in this category do not care about gas prices nor do they care about reliability.

What a ridiculous car. Why buy it? Slower, less economical, even smaller boot and 887 pounds HEAVIER than a regular 460L...this car seems completely pointless.

It's quite disappointing really, this car could have been really different and special...

Lexus has to step up its game. They should of followed the crowd, but instead wasted its time by doing things their way. I hope Lexus would learn from this experience and improve ten fold. I'm glad Lexus made this mistake, at least now they would have look at performance seriously for none F-series cars.

I drove the 600h wednesday its a rocket. Mid range power was the best,but it still riped from a dead stop. It was very quiet smooth and handled very well for a large car that is 800 lbs heaver than the 460. The quality of materials if first rate.

How did you drive it? Will not be available at any dealership until June....

LS600H = one step forward, two steps back.

way to go Lexus. So where are all the Lexus fanboys now that were just saying a few weeks ago that Lexus compares to the Rolls & Bentley's? HAha ... Who in their right mind is going to pay $100k + for a V8 Hybrid? Only people I can think of are the same people that bought the VW Phaeton ... LMAO ...

it's not "sold-out." they didn't take non-refundable deposits. lexus just has a list of interested people who signed up without knowing the price or any of the information we just learned about the car.

i'm guessing many will drop off that list once they find out about the poor performance, disappointing MPG and shocking price tag for a car that does almost nothing better (and some things worse) than it's $61,000 and $71,000 siblings.

Hybrid technology that works, and overall outstanding reliability. Where is Mercedes rated?. Who else makes a luxury hybrid as good as Lexus?
Stop trying to justify your ignorance of what Luxury car buyers want.

You don't seem to understand.

Let me spell it out for you:

R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!

Is that really your only defense? "RELIABILITY?!" Is that just a fallback? And how do you know this car will be reliable? We don't even know how reliable the LS460 is yet! Reputations mean nothing... with all the new tech in these cars, it could've gone wrong. You can never just assume.

Keep believing that reliability is nothing to buyers. What a dope.

Where did I say that in my post?

"R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!"

I said it's not the ONLY reason. You seem to believe that people buy Lexus vehicles only for their reliability and "superior quality." Well, first of all, esp. in this class, most owners have chauffers to take their cars to the shop for them anyway. Secondly, there's no such thing as a car with "inferior quality" at this pricepoint. A8L W12, S600, and 760Li all have stunning interiors.

"most owners have chauffers"

If you agree with this statement, than why all the ranting about performance numbers? The LS is a high-end luxury vehicle that pampers its occupants.
It does it just as well as any other car in this class. However, too many people here want to try and diminish what Lexus has accomplished because of one review on a pre-test automobile.

"This car is already sold out so this article and thread is pointless."

How is it pointless when an Lexus "executive" admits that Lexus is not up to snuff. This contradicts all the hyping of rabid fanboys. Reality is, people who shop this list want something more that the LS460 couldn't provide.

Moreover, the car gets worst performance than its cheaper sibling. Heavier 800Lbs, lower mpg for highway, lack of trunk space.

The article was well written despite what feelings you have about lexus.

The executive was refering to V12 class automobiles, not the base models.

the ls600h deserves the razzie for automobiles.

This is really embarassing for Lexus, I agree. The LS600h seems to perform poorer than the LS460 and the trunk space and load capacity are pathetic. The standard LS460 has a ridiculously low load capacity ratings, this, this is even worse.

And for the money, I can assume that buyers will care more about prestige than a $100k Lexus. The folks who shop for an S600 or 760Li are different than the folks who shop for an S550 or 750i etc., generally.

"In a class where exclusivity counts, the $104,715 hybrid LS should rattle a few cages. Only 2,000 will be built this year for sale in the United States, and we have little doubt each will be sold quickly"

-NAS World Car of the Year Winner

Also note that Edmunds used a pre-production test vehicle.

uuhh, david, that was the ls460, which, apperantly, is a lot better than the ls600h. you're trying to make a loser(ls600h) into a winner (ls460).

why are you struggling to justify a car that's slower, more expensive, uses more gas and looks just like it's less expensive siblings. even lexus can make mistakes. and this one takes the cake.

Was refering to LS vehicles in general.

This is the problem with the Lexus brand, the company is being run by a very forceful marketing group who focus on pairing lexus with Gucci or Cartier, latching onto the hybrid/green movement (and tarnishing the corporate image by this fiasco), and placing the name in the right circles, basically buying their way into the group instead of earning it the hard way...well here is the result...

I bet you that there were more than a few Toyota/Lexus engineers sitting at a table some time ago saying "guys this is not going to turn out well as the engineering just won't justify your claims". But nobody listened..the marketing machine was on a roll. I hope the IS-F is not marching down a similar path with the recent article pushing this to the twenty-something tuner crowd or younger...that will hurt the brand, not that the car will be a slacker, it just not what a premium brand is about.

Its time Lexus moved out of the Toyota house, set up shop on their own, develop their own design philosphy and let the engineers have some say in whats important in auto design, performance and passion (magic!) for what they want which is a premium auto brand.

I guess Lexus goals of the LS600h project are:

1. implant hybrid drive into LS600h
(to sell first ever $100K Lexus)
2. develop AWD for regular LS.
3. develop 5.0L v8 for mid-cycle LS500 update.
...

Calm down, people. The review is on a pre-production LS600hL, just like the C&D one on a pre-production LS460L. I believe the production car will not weight that much and run significantly faster and have combined FE greater than 23mpg by 2008 EPA rules. If not then I will be very very disappointed. Also I want to see the midrange acceleration performance figures.

it's a real production car. lexus is too pr/marketing savvy to allow a full test drive on a car that wasn't the best it can possibly be.

can you explain to me how a pre- prod car weighs more than a series production one?!!
My guees is that you're trying too hard to find excuses or explainations, after your bubble has burst,...

it's a pre-production test car.

EXCUSES, EXCUSES.

that is a really bad hit for lexus, i really had high hopes for this car, they better pray those numnbers are not accurate, if so i smell a flop/recalls and bad rep...SMH

i rarly like to post stuff on silly comments but this clown post some funny s@#!: saying u get the same options in 600h as an LS460L, but on other MB/BMW/Audi they get exclusive on there v12, lol is u stupid or u like talking out your azz, what u get on S600 different on s550 not chrome headlamps, maybe its designo paint or multispoke wheels lol ask your wife for help on this one, "since yall went car shopping" remember any dealer can make any car exclusive from factory

LS600hL has LS460L doen't

1. world's first LED headlights
2. full leather stitched panel,dash
3. AWD
4. hybrid
5. Pre-collision system with driver monitor system
6. Front and rear active stabilizers
...

Things you can get on an A8L W12, that you can't on the 4.2:

Super-premium leather with contrasting piping
Four-seat package
Rear seat entertainment system
Exclusive wheels
LED daytime running lights
Power rear seats
Custom wood, leather, piping, headliner, and dashboard colors- customer's specifications
Rear seat MMI controller
...and of course, a 450hp 6.0L W12 engine

Things an S600 has, but an S550 doesn't:

Exclusive wheels
Custom interior colors (à la A8L)
Rear seat entertainment system
Leather dash/doors
Alcantara headliner
...and of course, a 510hp V12.

I forgot what the 760 has that the 750 doesn't, but it's just as substantial as what the two above have.

This justifies a $55,000 price difference between an S550 and S600 ?

That could possibly be the most inaccurate thing you have ever posted.

Way to go.

The engine alone. Yes.

Yes.

Well said KaiserSoze. No other Luxury maker has a working all-wheel drive hybrid out there. The technology involved has been difficult for others to duplicate, let alone function with reliability.

Wait, so weight has NO bearing on the energy required to move it? I think you need to explain how that makes sense. So if the car were half the weight no improvement? Any additional weight is going to negatively affect peformance.

Nobody is saying the hybrid system doesnt work, they are saying the benefits are marginal at best. With or without an all wheel drive system, its just not giving back enough to justify the cost, both in terms of dollars and energy. The drive system should not be used as a reason for poor performance.

You make a comparison based on perceived competition..so by your logic we should only compare cars that self park? Just because a manufacturer adds a system to their vehicle does not make it unique and uncomparable to others, there will always be competition and you compare to similarly priced/sized vehicles. Most people on these boards, Lexi fans to boot, have been comparing this to all the big 3 and then some (RR, Bently!). And for the most part other manufacturers probably decide not to offer a hybrid 4x4 system because of perceived demand, no demand they wont offer it, maybe this says something about the car in question?

With this car Lexus obviously created a "demand."

If you want to talk about the benefits of hybrid vs. gasoline then that is a separate argument in itself which has been argued time and time again. Clearly the benefits of the hybrid system are diminished when you factor in that this is a heavy full-size luxury car.

Toyota created the "demand" in the first place, forcing all other manufacturers to develop their own hybrid systems. Mercedes, BMW and Audi are all doing "luxury hybrids" in the near future, something Lexus is doing FIRST.

Kaiser, I am one of the most rational posters on this website. The only reason why I made such a post was because of the ridiculous things fanboys say about this car. They implied that this car was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, well apparently its not.

first off Honda created the hybrid first. The Acura DNX was supposed to be the worlds first luxury hybrid but Toyota concentrated and pushed out the RX hybrid. Honda instead dumped their plans for a luxury hybrid and will concentrate it on the first hydrogen powered car in America, lets see toyota top that.

are you joking? well said? the guy said ridiculous things like the weight of car has no bearing on how much gas it takes to keep it going at highway speeds.

we'll have to see about all this 'demand.'
not a single car has been sold (i.e. cash exchange).
we'll have to wait a few months to see what happens.

They think they created a demand yet the engineering proves otherwise. Whats the point then? Other than marketing its just not a good move on their part. The competition will never release a hybrid version (like this) unless there is some real energy saving benefit other than latching onto the hybrid cachet. This just seems to be too much of a marketing push and less of an engineering marvel it should have been.

Oh, spare me.

I was referring to luxury features. INTERIOR features. Tangible things that the average LS600hL buyer (read: 65-year-old plutocrat) would recognize on a daily basis. Count out engineering differences- hybrid powertrain, AWD, CVT. The interiors of the two LS models are identical, and there is not a single feature available on the inside of the LS600hL that is unavailable on the LS460.

I didn't bother with your entire comment, because it was ludicrously long, but address me if there's anything more I didn't catch.

And where did you come up with that? The brands you are referring to, German brands, have not developed a single hybrid as of now. How can you judge the reliability of these nonexistent vehicles?

They can't make reliable gas vehicles, let alone trying to compete in the hybrid
arena.

Twisting statements and then flat out lying? Well, that's your trademark.

It is not just "marketing" that has the rest of the entire industry adopting Toyota/Lexus practices. If Toyota/Lexus were truly "idiots for doing hybrids" one would have to question why Mercedes and BMW of all companies are following them?

We would not even have the possibility of diesel hybrids without Toyota's work on making hybrids in general more available. The main reason why we do not have a diesel hybrid yet is because manufacturers have yet to find a way to control the premium costs associated with both diesels and hybrids. In other words, diesel hybrids are too expensive. I put my money on Toyota making those cheaply available too.

Also, nobody is holding a gun to Mercedes's head. If they do not believe hybrids are the answer then they should come up with their own unique solution and ship it our way. This is not the case though, is it?

Toyota has already topped that. Please tell us what the point of burning hydrogen is? I love Honda, but you bring up a point that worries me. Instead of improving upon Toyota's already-proven technology, they are deciding to go their own route just for the sake of being different. The issues with hydrogen have already been raised with BMW's extensive hydrogen testing. Let us wait and see if Honda can do anything with it.

These Lexus-bashing collaborations are to be expected from German fans. It's their way of convincing each other that Lexus is not as good as their favorite brands.

On the issue of the Lexus executive, he simply stated that Lexus did not have a V12 luxury sedan to compete with the "big boys" which is why they created their own "big boy," the LS600h.

Significant features the S600 has over the S550:

A V12 engine, different wheels.

Significant features the LS600H has over the LS460:

A hybrid powertrain with 4WD, different wheels, increased fuel economy (SULEV rating), optional full-leather dashboard.

Calling the LS600h a "screw-up" (a vehicle that has already sold-out) is just dumb, but again, expected here on this site.

...I even to mention the LED headlights...

I believe full-leather dash and much more are standard on hybrid LS.

Obviously you are wrong. There is no increased fuel economy. It is dirtier than some much cheaper cars, VW Rabbit for example.

All you get is a hybrid badge. But actually you only show your hypocricy.

Obviously no one has a full report on the fuel economy of the LS600h. Clearly it will get better fuel economy than the LS460 when more tests are done. And of course you present more baseless comparisons. The VW Rabbit is a front-wheel drive economy car. The LS600h is a full-size, AWD hybrid luxury car. Did I really need to point that out?

Regardless, compared to the V12 variants of the LS's competition, the LS600h will still have better fuel economy and lower emissions, the very point behind the LS600h in the first place.

LS600hL emits nearly 70 percent fewer emissions than the "cleanest" of its competitors.

i wasnt bashing LS600h nor the S600, both are cars i would luv 2 own but i was referring to this clown comment about whats exclusive on models, i know whats u get on both cars, just dont make it look like the 600h dosent have nothing exclusive then its silbling but these other brand does!

are you insane?
oh wait, we know you are.

The S600 also gets exclusive passion leather, and a leather dash, some V12 badges, ABC (active body control) and more standard equipment. But really same deal as the LS. Not accusing Lexus of copying but they've taken what the S600 does over the S550 and used it for the LS.
My problem is that the LS600h offers no real advantage over an LS460. Slower, yet less fuel efficient, far less powerful than its Mercedes rival (equal with the 760 however) and massively more heavy, with an even smaller boot.
Standard equipment doesn't bother me, and I like the idea of distinctive headlights, but while the idea is good in concept of a hybrid LS, in execution it has some serious shortcomings.

this is in response to the Will thread about 4 posts above.
stupid reply buttons not working.

But it will be over a second slower than the V12 competitors and not any quicker than the competitor V8 that get the same if not better fuel economy. So far it hasn't proved anything.

just give up. lexus screwed up. next topic.

If you say V12's are pointless and stupid then what about the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and other cars you probably have on a poster on your wall?

What about the Bentley's that have the W12 engines? You make it sound so bad that they are larger engines than a V8 but in really the HYBRID's the only excuse you'll ever have to support the LS.

The LS600h has all the options that will satisfy a customer no doubt about it. But it's not in direct competition against the S600 type vehicles out in the market. Lower emissions or not you can't change what people think. A larger engine, a higher model, a higher level of luxury simple means more prestige in the case of any cars that are in the S600's competition.

No need to write anything back as I do respect what the LS600 has to offer. I know the LS is comfortable and is a good place to be but to say it's better than than the rest that's going too far. Since V12 cars and V8's are different they are in different leagues plain and simple.

This is awfully similar to the C&D test of a pre-production LS460, which was proven wrong when the car actually went on sale. I dont fault the article, which makes the point clear that the car is a test car. 0-60 times will be noticeably higher when the production car is out, and everybody here knows that. Its just too easy to use this as an excuse to flame. So have fun with that.

But I am surprised that Edmunds said that Lexus expects highway mpg to be 22. I havent seen that anywhere else, and would be quite surprised if that were the case. People really need to understand that highway cruising in a hybrid yields really high mileage, the electric motor can provide a huge assist. I almost always get better mileage in my Prius on highways than in the city.

wtf? typical autospies posters. the damn car isnt even out yet. one should wonder why lexus lets people review pre-production cars. i have nothing to say about the ls600h except that as long as lexus feels like its the underdog, quality products are almost guaranteed. its not like benz, wasting time making models no one really buys.

for what its worth, the 600h is a halo car. the price of which doesnt make sense. the same is for the CL, but these cars are magnificent though.

"its not like benz, wasting time making models no one really buys. "

HA!

I've driven two S550s in the last month, and you have no idea how wrong that is. I'm not even going to get into it. There's SO MUCH.

gsh23 wrote
"wtf? typical autospies posters. "

Actually, these are blind Toyota-Lexus haters to the bone. Reminds me, of prius haters a long time ago. History repeats itself.

Only if you think a Badge could make a car better. BMW, Audi, Benz are companies making expensive cars (many of them overpriced) and much more cheap cars too (A,B,C,1,2,3...).

Of course they are playing in this class, that's why the LS600hL exists.

Lexus fans at club lexus are ripping on the L600hl

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277414


Some quotes:

"The 600h is a major disappointment. If inside line is correct, then the added mass almost 900 lbs is a disaster."

"That is exactly what my concern is. It is not a technological leap. In no measure does it justify the epithet of leap. And I am a Lexus fanatic. "

"In fact I will go as far as to say the LS600h is LESS technologically advanced than a regular LS460. "

"i agree this is a disapointment on my part as well. I thought that this would be an unbelievable achievement for lexus, but the fuel economy is not great, nor is the power...so whats the point? the LED headlights perhaps?"

watch. I'm going to get deboosted for quoting these comments from Lexus fan boys

Those are die-hard German fanboi,^0^ most of them on this site too I believe.

wow....even die hard lexus fans are disappointed!

Lexus went out and set the bar too high, and sadly came short. yes, i understand this is pre-production, but how on earth are they to fix the boot issue? maybe chop the end off a ls460 and make it into a small trailer. mpg are appalling, and all those die-hard lexus fan crying these are not acurate figures what are you expecting on final, an additional 10 mpg, i dont think so, most likely + or - 2 mpg. what about weight? i can hardly believe that lexus can shed 900 lbs in about one or two months before their summer launch. so this goes out to the all the lexus ls600h masterbaters, HOW DO YOU INCREASE THE BOOT, MPG BY 10 MPG, AND DECREASE THE WEIGHT BY 900 LBS IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS ON YOUR BELOVED LEXUS LS600H???
p.s. stop bringing up other cars, this is about the lexus!!!

im a lexus fan and i must say there something very wrong here, why would someone pay 30-40k more to get 2mpg better. but people the ls600h is not slower then the ls460.

Edmunds got 5.9 for the LS600hL.

Lexus quotes, what, 5.5 for the LS460?

lol!

People are really arguing "price justifiable" on the most expensive Lexus ever. The LS600h is a premium luxury halo car for the brand. Nobody here argues that the CL600 or the S600 are too expensive over their V8 and V6 counterparts do they? And again, there are significant features and attributes that the 600h has over the 460, as some of you will just keep on refusing to admit. People buying this Lexus will not be concerned with such issues as value and practicality as most other Lexus customers in the past have done. That goes back to exactly what the Lexus exec was saying. The LS600h allows the brand to enter the arena of "unjustifiable" price differences between model ranges just as their German competition has done for years.

So let's say the LS600h's fuel economy will not be vastly greater than the S600 or 760. Considering the other attributes of the car it still is not a "failure." The fact that a V8 combined with a hybrid gets very similar figures to a V12 speaks enough and is an achievement in itself. The whole idea behind Lexus hybrids is to achieve performance on par with their V8/V12 competition without the drastic sacrifices of fuel economy and emissions. Even with the OFFICIAL stats not out we can all assume this will be the case.

To keep on arguing the trunk issue is trivial. We know that with hybrids, comes the sacrifice of trunk space. If you want a bigger trunk then get a bigger car. Those truly interested in and actually buying hybrids don't seem to mind the small trade-off.

The arguments here are extremely similar to te same ones tired out in GS450h threads. The difference here is that this Lexus happens to be the flagship of the brand, therefore we can expect more hostility in the comments...

But the GS makes more sense, faster AND more fuel efficient than an equivalent V8. But the 600h, slower and the same if not worse fuel economy? An S600 or A8W12 or 760 all offer BIG increases in performance over V8 counterparts, the S class having over 500hp from a 5.5 litre biturbo, the A8 450hp, the 760 440hp, all doing 0-60 in under 5.5, the S class in an astonishing 4.6, the A8 in 5.2, the 760 in 5.5. Doing it in 6 seconds really isn't enough, BUT this could just be one test, one car. It may be faster, we shall have to wait.

I guess Lexus goals of the LS600h project are:

1. implant hybrid drive into LS600h
(to sell first ever $100K Lexus)
2. develop AWD for regular LS.
3. develop 5.0L v8 for mid-cycle LS500 update.
...

If people don't like it, Lexus could cut the 300~400lb AWD hardware to make a RWD hybrid lighter than competitors' v12s.

will:

the LS600 is slower, less fuel effiecient, more expensive and has a much smaller trunk than the LS460.

so what are these "significant features and attributes that the 600h has over the 460" that MAKE UP for those shortfalls AND also justify a $33,000 premium?

The leather dash and fancy lights and all wheel drive..why they decided to mate the all wheel drive system to the hybrid was just asking for weight and fuel economy issues..

supra:

you are mistaken. lexus' goal was to compete with the flagship sedans from mercedes, bmw and audi. not to develop new features the base LS.

supra:

you are mistaken. lexus' goal was to compete with the flagship sedans from mercedes, bmw and audi. not to develop new features for the base LS.

WILL- THE DIFFERENCE IS, THERE ARE REASONS WHY THE S600, 760, A8 W12 ARE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THEIR V8 COUNTERPARTS!!!

There is NO REASON why this is so much more money!

They are doing what you have hated about Mercedes for years- they're charging PRESTIGE PRICING! For a car that doesn't even have prestige yet, because this is its first iteration!

You just can't wrap your head around the fact that LEXUS MAKES MISTAKES, can you?

I was deeply disappointed in Lexus today. No, it had nothing to do with the article. I had the day off today, and for fun, we decided to drive an S550 4Matic, to see how the 4Matic stacks up against the RWD I drove in L.A. We had to wash the RX330, and about a mile away from the carwash, lo and behold, the mirror fell off. My son had to hold the mirror in place as we were going on the highway (I was driving slowly, at 65mph) to Autohaus Mercedes-Benz. I made the call for an appointment at the Lexus dealer before we went into the M-B dealer. We waited ten minutes, and our courteous salesman brought around a black/beige S550 4Matic. It was a beauty.

...of course, the drive was fabulous, as it was beautiful out today, in my ridiculously unpredictable Chicago weather. The car was amazing, as it was the last time I had driven it. We even went to our new house (which we have not yet moved into) to see if it fit in the garage; it did, barely.

We went on to the Lexus dealer. Got there, and they said they'd order a new one, temporarily taping the one that fell off. We went to the showroom for a bit, and I sat in, oh, about four of them. The LS460 was what disappointed me most. I guess my standards were too high after being in the S550's beautifully-crafted interior, but the LS felt cheap and nasty in comparison. The palstics paled in comparison the S's metal buttons, there were a couple obvious fake wood trim pieces, and the seats felt as if someone put leather over a few pillows-- not good. I won't go on long, but it appalled me. I had seen the interior in pictures, of course, and had been driven in my friends LS460 SWB. I admired it from afar, not scrutinizing anything, and liked how it looked in pictures, if not "loving" it. But this completely changed my opinion of the car!

It made me realize: Mercedes doesn't charge prestige pricing! Their attention to detail is worth every penny! Its interior is worth the $20K over the LS!

This site needs an "Edit" button. In these little typing boxes, it's hard to take in the entire comment, so you have to read it after before realizing what needs changes. Especially when you go on for so long, like I did!

In the paragraph about the Lexus dealer, I was referring to its mirrors ("they said they'd order a new one"). And when I say I sat in four of "them," "they" are Lexus cars.

Sure, mirrors fall off Lexus vehicles all the time.

Lexus has done a great job. The proof will be when someone trys to buy one.
There won't be any available due to the demand.

"It made me realize: Mercedes doesn't charge prestige pricing! Their attention to detail is worth every penny! Its interior is worth the $20K over the LS!"

Your "German fanboy-ness" is showing again. Everyone here knows the Mercedes badge is a large factor in Mercedes pricing. It is worth it to you because of the badge and what the badge represents due to marketing of the company's attributes. This is not necessarily a "bad" or "negative" thing, for I would certainly choose any Toyota or Honda over any Hyundai for the same reasons, but let us not pretend anything here.

I have stayed out of this fray, but I feel compelled to tell you S4- There is not one drop of "fake wood" in the LS, or in ANY Lexus model. In fact, all wood is done by Yamaha piano company for Lexus. You have lost credibility with me. BTW, Tomorrow I am off to Newport Beach for 3 days with the designers to learn about the 600.

I did not even say it was the car's fault. It's four years old, and is bound to have a few squeaks and rattles- it just so happens that after a carwash, it popped off. Do you seriously think I made that up to make Lexus look bad? We've had a satisfactory experience with our RX330. It just appears that my wife would like something beyond... satisfactory for her next car. Superior is probably the word I'm looking for.

Check the center console. There is "wood look" on the CD player. It pissed me off.

"We had to wash the RX330, and about a mile away from the carwash, lo and behold, the mirror fell off"

Get your story straight.

Yes. A MILE AWAY FROM THE CARWASH. After we left! It fell off!

how about everyone waits for other reviews too, this is a preproduction model too. every other company is planning hybrids also, and by the time other mild systems from other companys come out the 2nd gen should be around the corner. one thing about the company i noticed is they always get bashed, but come out on top at the end.

Now if people did that then they couldn't say that the new LS had dangerous brakes or that the R8 was crap compared to a Lamborghini.

This whole site functions to give the ignorant and arrogant a platform to debate crap that doesn't even exist yet.

huu:

you are mistaken. the S600 does 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. and mercedes consistently underestimates both power and accelertion times.

And the A8 W12 does it in 5.2...

Actually 5.1 seconds. But the W12 is very quick. The S8 has been clocked as quick as 4.7 seconds.

Nice job making the W12 look slower because you didn't want it to have good stats...

I've seen five seconds flat for the Audi. huu, you are incredibly frustrating. 5.8? Where did that come from? Not from Audi's website- they say 5.0 seconds. And they UNDERestimate!

Who cares about the acceleration times of high end luxury cars? Anybody that would buy these types of vehicles are not looking for speed demons.

I will agree with you on your overall point. It is funny how it takes an LS460L to make the LS600hL look bad. Just goes to show just how good the LS is to begin with. I am also noticing how many posters who flat-out claimed to hate the LS460 are now all of the sudden singing its praises.

Another excuse! You cornered me about saying that reliability doesn't matter (though I didn't actually say that), but now you're saying acceleration doesn't matter! LOL! Get a mirror!

People are ranting about acceleration times of these luxury vehicles as if they are meant to race. That's simply not true. You say in another post that most owners have chauffers. So why would they care about .5 sec difference of 0-60?

It's obvious that heads are going to roll at the Toyota engineering center in Tokyo.

Here we go again!!!...But I have to admit about the weight and numbers, I was expecting just a little more than that in terms of efficiency but not as heavy . But realize this, Lexus is in its' 1st Generation Hybrid when it comes in the full size V8 segment. No other manufacturer will ever come close as we speak. After all Lexus is the only one to have the big-kahunas to step up to the plate and at least make the attempt and prove the level of innovation they are today. Based on EPA numbers and performance there is really no loss compared to the LS460, just less emissions is their target at the moment. Remember who are they really competiting at this point??? No one, and not for the next 2 years at least...so why burn themselves out that quick? You can compare performance & weight numbers all day long against german autos and elsewhere, but realize germans had their engines(V8s'& V12s') forever. So really no surprise there as to how light or how fast they are. As for mating a Hybrid to at least a petrol V8, Germans right now are nowhere close. Remember Lexus gives a better performance, with little emissions, so why not compare that to the German V8s' and V12s' etc...by the time everybody else comes out with thier own fuel efficient technology in the Luxury segment, Lexus will have gone into its' 2nd Generation, where fuel efficiency performance and taking less space with less weight will become ahead of the game...it's just the begining ladies and gents just like the early prius days and look where they are now...Okay German and Japan fanboys con't on with your flame wars....LMAO!!!!

your points still don't justify $111,000 for this car. it doesn't excel at anything relative to the LS460 or any of the competition in this price range.

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the Lexus people.....

you are correct...they typically stretch both hp and acceleration times.

furthermore, both the S550 and LS460L manufacturer claims are 5.4. yet the exact same test under the exact same weather/altitude conditions had the benz 0.6 seconds faster to 60. typical lexus overstatement.

Yep,Lexus has definitely been overstating lots of their numbers. Some have been proven, some have not.

Lexus does not in fact typically overstate performance figures. What is actually the case is that they send sub-par pre-production models to reviewers, the results of which are then used for comparison without a second consideration of circumstances.

I love the S8, but the LS600hL was NOT intended to compete with such cars? If you're such a devout unbiased Lexus fan, I would assume you were aware of that?

that would be the STOCK S600 straight from stuttgart that does 4.5 to 60. for your convenience, the link is below. the S65 AMG (also stock) does 4.2 to 60.

http://www.mbusa.com/models/features/specs/performance.do?modelCode=S600V&class=07_S

you've still failed to explain why the LS600 is justified over the LS460 that's faster, has all the same major luxury features, gets better mileage and is much cheaper.

Lots of posts about "Where are all the Lexus fanboys..."

Don't you just love these BMW/MB fanboys. You guys crack me up. I bet you guys have been waiting long and hard for an article like this to come around aren't you.

Well, I don't blame you. Lexus continuously come up with cars that scare you $hitless so an article like this sure represents a refreshing change. Something for you guys to savor, eh?

Well let's recap the usual drivel you usually spit whenever there's an article about Lexus...

- You said the h offers no extra fuel-efficiency
- You said performance is no better than the regular LS
- you said price is too steep, and lastly (and this is something that just kills me laughing)
- offers no prestige LOL!!!

Now based on these "expert" observations, one might think no way on earch the car's going to sell, right?

WRONG!!! It doesn't matter what you people say. Lexus will sell EACH AND EVERY h they will produce. Even with the high price tag.

And you know why? Because there are people who can afford it. These people don't give a fuk that performance and fuel-efficiency is on par with an LS.

This is the world's first hybrid super-luxury vehicle and is sold in very limited quantities to boot (hence the exclusivity factor). And for that alone, people will be lining up to buy it.

Sorry BMW/MB fans, as much as I know you'd like to rub this bit of Lexus negativity in, the h would still be a success, and you're fears about Lexus finally attaining that coveted "prestige" title will be realized.

If i remeber correctly, some fanboys were comparing this car to RR, Maybach and Bently. Yeah, right. Im not talking crap here but its about time you outta control Lexus fanboys got back in line.

people of means are not idiots. most have worked very hard for their money. and they don't take kindly to being made fools of. they expect the things they buy to excel at everything. this car simply doesn't deliver on its promises nor does it excel relative to its competition.

the LS600 will sell for a while because of the 'new' factor. but after a few months or so--and once its unexceptional qualities become widely known--lexus will have a hard time selling these cars.

Why would we be sitting, "waiting" for this? If the LS600hL was an excellent vehicle, which it's not, and even SOMEWHAT justified its price increase over the LS460L, we wouldn't be complaining.

But you're the one making excuses. "PEOPLE CAN AFFORD IT THEY DONT CARE HOW FAST IT IS OR HOW GOOD MILEAGE IT GETS."

I was considering the LS600hL for the wife's next car, when I saw commercials stating "438hp, 30mpg." I also thought the price would be about $90K, which is doable. Then I didn't consider it any more, when I found out it was "438hp, 20mpg, $110K." The S550 also gets 20mpg on average, is quicker, weighs about a thousand pounds less and costs $97K (our options)- that $97,775 number got more attractive when I realized I could lease it for $800/mo. Ironically, that's thanks to the RX330's great resale value.

They never said 30 mpg. What the heck are you talking about?

The LS is not a super-luxury sedan. Get it through your thick skull. Even the German's don't claim that with their top models.

Plain and simple, European luxury is recognized world wide not a Lexus. To many a Lexus is still just a luxury Toyota. I think they have come long ways to get to where they are but to say they are better than it's competition that's not true.

Lexus is bought because of it's great pricing for what they offer. An LS buyer would not buy an S600, A8 W12, or a 760. An LS I admit does well for those whom it caters to. Luxury and a comfortable ride that's good. But even though Lexus packs this car with nice neat options it still lacks the prestige i'm looking for.

For US consumers they think it's prestige because for the luxury market in the US in regards to domestic brands they have what? Cadillac to compete with? Compared to Cadillac the quality is much better in a Lexus. After all majority of the marketing projects are held here in North America. Remember this was an American-Japanese brand before they tried to go world wide. Try to convince all the current German brand owners elsewhere to buy a Lexus. It will be quite hard. You all know it.

They have not become stronger, they have dodged a bullet. Do you think Lexus is going to take this lightly? They are going to work day an night to correct this problms of the LS600. Do you assume that the next 7 series is going to be a hybrid just because its cool? No its not because of what Lexus has brought to the table. Sevor this is a small battle won by the Germans but the war is not over. Watch and hang around, I give Lexus 10 years before they take over the luxury business. I respect every brand for what it is worth, but Lexus will not stop fighting until it is at the top.

This is why the LS600hL was created, as an alternative to a V12.

^Using this method BMW will never be as good as Mercedes because Mercedes will always have more experience, considering the company was established first. Old arguments tire fast.

Lexus makes luxury cars often noted as having "unmatched refinement."

"hahahaha...."

...

Flozel: "Well, I don't blame you. Lexus continuously come up with cars that scare you $hitless so an article like this sure represents a refreshing change. Something for you guys to savor, eh?

Well let's recap the usual drivel you usually spit whenever there's an article about Lexus...

- You said the h offers no extra fuel-efficiency
- You said performance is no better than the regular LS
- you said price is too steep, and lastly (and this is something that just kills me laughing)
- offers no prestige LOL!!!

Now based on these "expert" observations, one might think no way on earch the car's going to sell, right?

WRONG!!! It doesn't matter what you people say. Lexus will sell EACH AND EVERY h they will produce. Even with the high price tag.

And you know why? Because there are people who can afford it. These people don't give a fuk that performance and fuel-efficiency is on par with an LS.

This is the world's first hybrid super-luxury vehicle and is sold in very limited quantities to boot (hence the exclusivity factor). And for that alone, people will be lining up to buy it.

Sorry BMW/MB fans, as much as I know you'd like to rub this bit of Lexus negativity in, the h would still be a success, and you're fears about Lexus finally attaining that coveted "prestige" title will be realized."


WELL SAID, Flozel!

it really cracks me up too, all the hysteria about the LS600 also being "slower" than the ls460!

slower by 0.1 second to 60mph? (and same 1/4 mile time.) who the fuk CARES? esp. in this class, where most owners would be lounging in the back seat?

what straws the germy fanboys won't grasp at, on their nitpicking witchhunts! LOL!

I care about acceleration. If I'd just bought a 600h, Id feel ashamed that an S class 600 could hammer me to 60. People buy these models exactly because of the performance, otherwise they buy S320cdis if they give a damn about fuel efficiency!

Wow! FanBoy3000, that was an amazing comment. You are one who sees clearly- I have noticed that you really do like Lexus, as you have stated before, but the fact that you can admit when they make a mistake is an example for others on this site to follow. There is a lot wrong with this LS600hL, though I admire the LS460L's overall package (its styling has grown on me).

I just wish the diehard Lexus fanboys could admit defeat. It seems impossible for them. I still fail to see one reason to buy this car, ever.

1. It's not as fast as a BMW 760Li, Audi S8/W12, Merc S600 or Jag Super V8 Portfolio.

2. It's more expensive than Audi S8 and Jag Super V8 Portfolio.

3. There's nothing it offers that the LS460L doesn't.

4. Its mileage is no better than LS460L.

5. After complaining about how prestige means nothing for months, the Lexus fans suddenly turn and say how people buy this car for prestige- although the new Lexus flagship has none. This is because it's NEW. Before a car can claim "prestige," it needs to prove itself. M3/M5, S-Class, RS4, 911, Escalade- those are all prestigious vehicles, because they have been great successes in their markets. Lexus fans claim otherwise. Contradictory, to say the least.

Despite what the badge whores on this thread would have you believe, each of these LS vehicles for sale will be sold. For those of you that believe a luxury automobile should sacrifice luxury (its primary attribute) for performance numbers, are dopes. No other luxury car maker has the combination of luxury and reliability as Lexus does. Sure the other brands think they might have that "magical soul and passion factor", but people that actually buy these types of vehicles speak with their wallets. I don't think Lexus has to worry about what some kids here are ranting about.

The numbers (acceleration, braking, fuel economy, price, etc) define the luxury package,..for any manufacturer! Luxury is more than fancy leather or different lights..Its much much more. Lexus is not immune from people researching the numbers and finding, in this case, they have come up lacking. After all, who wants to be seen driving around in what is perceived as an engineering bust? Hardly luxury.

If the "numbers" were what people who purchase these types of vehicles define them by, than Lexus does not have to worry. The world's first luxury hybrid with awd an engineering bust? Again, people vote with their wallets, and even in this rarified air, Lexus will succeed.

how long will the battery last?! toyota is already crying about the battery in the prius which is killing resale value. i live in southern california, a year ago used second gen prius were selling very close to msrp. now their about $10k less! so in 2009 or 2010, this ls600h will be about $50k-$60k used. and owners will cough up maybe $20k for a battery replacement during those two years. with all those gadgets and self parking crap it'll kill that battery a lot faster.

go lexus!-(sarcasm)

You're worried about Lexus resale value? Put your mind at ease. I doubt it will be any worse then the ressale values of any other vehicle in this class. As far as batteries are concerned, that technology will improve the same as, for example, cell phone batteries have after a short time span.

battery technology will improve, cant argue with that. but most likely lexus will implement imporved battery tech in the second gen ls hybrid, not this one.

Bottom line is

Who ever buys the LS600h over the LS460 is a greeny hypocrite.

Why would anyone care what a German fan thinks about a Lexus? Lexus and their fans just need to realize that there is nothing Lexus can or will ever do to appease them. I accepted that a long time ago, which is why I take what most of them say, especially S4cabriofox, at face-value and leave it at that. Did we really expect them to admit they like the LS600h? No, because that would mean their precious S600, 760, A8 W12 etc would be put in the background.

Plenty of people pay unnecessarily for a badge. This is why the S600, 760 etc even sell. There's no difference besides the V12 engine and badging. To me, that is NOT "more justifiable" than the difference between the 460 and the 600h, yet the Germans get that special "we're German" pass yet again.

MikeG!!!!!
wooooooooo!

And I agree, would anyone pay 33k more for new headlights and a slower car? Imagine if the 550 S class was more than the 600! Who would buy it??

S4cab owns a Lexus when it is convenient for him to do so. When he wants to appear as "unbiased" he'll bring up "his" Lexus RX. However the rest of the time when he wants be a devout German fan, you'll notice the Lexus RX becomes "his wife's." He can't have it both ways as much as he tries to.

I don't know where all the notions came from about the Ls600h being a "hit out of the park." I never said it would do that, and no other Lexus fan worth aying attention to said that either. I did, however say that the LS600h would do for the brand what needs to be done, which is establish the brand as a true premium make. People here keep saying all you get with the 600h is the "hybrid" badge. What's wrong with that? All you get with the S600 is the "V12" badges! What is the difference? Please tell me so that I understand?!?!

It kills me that people insist on arguing that the cost of the LS600 isn't "justified." What makes the price difference between the 550 and 600 "justified?" The fact that it has a Mercedes badge to begin with? That's bs, just as all of you seem to believe the 600h is. If Mercedes, BMW, and Audi are allowed to bs with their pricing then why isn't Lexus allowed to do that to establish themselves?

well luckily I'm not drunk.
and you would never, ever, hear me say oi as a greeting! I'm not a football hooligan!


Will, what you get with the S600 is better performance. You don't with the LS600h. If the LS was faster, then it would make more sense, but it isn't.
I don't know if you actually read the article but Edmunds got a slower time in the 600h than in the 460L. The price difference would be justified if there was better performance, or performance that matched its rivals'.

Thank you, Wilco/MikeG/FanBoy, and thank you, Rupert.

That's the difference.

Will, I just can't believe you have dismissed this so many times!

The S600, 760Li, and A8L W12 all have significantly better performance than their V8 counterparts-- especially the S600, which you had the vanity to mention.

And you seem to forget that the LS600hL does not only fail to increase fuel economy over its LS460 base, but even fails at performance. THERE IS NO REASON TO BUY IT!!! The W12/760/S600 may be gas-guzzlers, but they're rockets! The LS hybrid isn't! THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!

And Will, I take your opinion of me with a grain of salt. You choose not to agree with me on my more rational posts, instead arguing every "wrong" comment I put up. As FanBoy said, I paid for my wife's car. It's paid off. It's been a satisfactory experience- pretty good ride, okay wind noise, interior is holding up nicely, features are still pretty up-to-date, great resale, and it drives like a car. Although it's no performance truck, if we weren't happy with our RXs, I wouldn't have bought two. It's been a pleasure to take on road trips, and the leather can take a good beating, unlike some of the super-exotic leather in more expensive vehicles.

You know what? If she wanted an SUV, I would buy it again. Ironically, she'd probably end up with an RX400h (she's a bit disillusioned about hybrids). It's the perfect SUV for her. She just wants a sedan, and for some reason refuses to look at a Lexus sedan. If LS460L was available with AWD, I'd probably get her to look at it, but we're most likely going to end up with S550 4Matic, as I've said before. It's a huge step up- but worth it. Lease rates are good, too. (-:

Interesting. I just got my copy of Car&Driver which has a "short take" on the LS600hL. They got the car 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, they got it 50-70 in 3.1 seconds and a quarter mile of 13.8 seconds.

Also, after a week with the car they got 20mpg while only getting 13mpg on the LS460L (they do ride them hard). Finally, the fuel consumption ratings on the hybrid are taken with 2008 EPA testing, while the numbers they use on the LS460L is from the 2007 method. All manufacturer's fuel consumption numbers will drop for 2008.

They don't even bring up the fact that the LS600hL emits 70% less pollutants than a comparable gasoline only car.

The bottom line is that there will be a market for this car amongst people that find its strengths worthy. Just like there are people that want a V12 when most may find it too much.

In full disclosure, yes I do work for Lexus, but I tend to like German cars (as well as Lexus). I do, however, dislike fanboyism on both sides and distorting the facts to make your "side" look better. There's a lot to like about Lexus if you take the time to learn about. I remember I felt similar to a lot of "German fanboys" before I learned more about the brand and what goes into it.

C&D says they got the LS460L to 60 in 6 seconds, so it is faster according the C&D (which I trust more than the manufacturer's numbers).

Finally, there is more news on the IS coupe and SC, but I can't say. ;)

Everyone here keeps commenting on the "huge" price difference. If a top-of-the-line LS460L can run for $93,000 then the jump to $111,000 is not that steep at all. Keep that in mind.

the LS600 is $121,000 with all options.

The LS460L is a great deal. The LS600h is a total ripoff, and a waste of R&D effort.

Only a biased fanboy would consider the 600h a great car at its price. Well, no surprise, a fanboy would take anything a manufacturer shoves down his throat.

The 460L is already a fine car. Why bother stuffing it with several hundred pounds of battery for a tiny little gain in fuel economy while killing the trunk space and dynamics of the car??

Put a V12 in there, then we are talking.

In 1989 most everyone thought a $35K Lexus from Toyota would fail. I wish all the people who speak to the importance of history would learn from it.

I'll always think it's funny that the biggest proponents of "heritage and exclusivity" always bash Lexus and would seem to want everyone driving the same damn cars.

This pre-production review doesn't offer a definative view of what the hybrid LS is or what it is capable of.

The average buyer of an LS hybrid or Merc/BMW/Audi V12 does not read automotive magazines much less care what posters at autospies.com think.

When was the last time a non-Lexus news post got anywhere close to 200 posts? I think that speaks a lot about the attitudes of posters here.

It did not fail in America when introduced in 1989. It did not fail in Japan when it was introduced last year. It has not failed worldwide. What a ridiculous comment.

The fact that Lexus is not more popular in Europe does not take away from their success in North America.

Wow. This will be another record thread for this site, all because of the topic, of course.

Things to consider:

There is not a "$33,000 price difference" between the LS460 and the LS600h. Not even between the extended wheelbase versions. The base price of a non-extended wheelbase LS460 is $61,000, this is the LOWEST-possible price of a new LS, but we all know very few are being sold at that configuration price.

The base price of an LS600h, which will only be available in extended-wheelbase form, is $104,000. As-tested prices of LS460Ls have been as high as $90,000 which would mean that the jump from LS460L to LS600hL is not as significant as some are making it out to be.

Not to even mention the list of features that will be exclusive to the LS600hL. World's first LED high- and low-beam swiveling headlights, full-leather dashboard and doors, as well as the executive-seating option standard in the LS600hL. Add to that exclusive wheels, all-wheel drive and of course, the most powerful hybrid system ever. It seems as if a certain someone is listing every detail possible to imply that the jump from S550 to S600 is more reasonable, how about listing every detail there is within the LS600hL?

Of course badge-bragging comes into play here which is what I believe scares you all the most. With the S600 you get to tout that you have a big V12. With the LS600hL you get to tout that you have the most powerful hybrid system on the market. Welcome to the new Lexus way of thinking. Say the price is "unjustified" as you will, just remember that all the prices of all the cars the LS600hL are equally "unjustifiable" to the average car buyer.

Keep in mind that Lexus has had a history of delivering sub-par preproduction test cars to reviewers. Initial reviews of Lexus models have generally proven to be inconclusive of the full potential of actual production models. Braking distances for the actual production models of Lexus vehicles always prove to be better than what is initially tested, this has been proven.

This is also why I seriously doubt the LS600hL is this much worse a performer than the LS460L. Even considering these performance numbers, consider the whole idea behind the Lexus line of hybrids: a gain in performance without a dramatic decrease in economy and emissions. Considering this, Lexus hit their mark. The LS600hL does not receive a dramatic decrease in fuel economy from the LS460, AND it emits dramatically less. Take into consideration how performance of the S600 is improved from the S550, but at the expense of fuel economy and emissions from such an engine.

Also, keep in mind that the magazine compared older EPA estimates, from the old abandoned method might I add, against the manufacturer's estimates. When the LS460 and LS600 are rated under the new EPA testing standards, we can all assume that the fuel economy differences will be substantially different from what we see here.

Until more conclusive testing is done, how a

...

Until more conclusive testing is done, how are we to take this one magazine's results as all-encompassing? It saddens me that such outrage was displayed against Lexus here, all based off of one review using out-of-date EPA estimates and a pre-production car. I thought most were more rational here, but I guess I am learning a lot more about the people on this site that worries me. The quick-reaction bashing to this car speaks volumes based on all of the circumstances.

The bottom-line is that no matter how "unjustified" the price is to you, the buyers that Lexus is targeting with this car care absolutely nothing about that. You can argue the "prestige" thing over and over again, but then again, let us let the numerous buyers waiting on LS600hL order lists decide that for themselves.

All great points Anthony.

Very good post, but there's still something to be done here:

"The base price of an LS600h, which will only be available in extended-wheelbase form, is $104,000. As-tested prices of LS460Ls have been as high as $90,000 which would mean that the jump from LS460L to LS600hL is not as significant as some are making it out to be."

Remember, you're comparing the base hybrid to the loaded non-hybrid. Loaded hybrid is $120-130K, if I've heard correctly. That is a difference, but not nearly as large as the gap between the German trio and their twelve-cylinder variants.

Also, if you really wanted to, you could get the exec. seating in the LS460L, or the hybrid's wheels at the dealer. Those aren't "exclusive" options; only exclusives are leather dash, LEDs and hybrid powertrain.

And as much as you hate to admit it, in this stratosphere, prestige really, truly does come into play. Nobody wants the new kid on the block- unless, of course, that "kid" has proven himself in other ways. IMO, in the US market, the LS has been proven. The hybrid badge won't change anything... but some may be shocked that Lexus has finally gone into six figures.

Other than that, I agree.

If these were concrete figures, then I would agree that this is an underwhelming car. Note the review said that it failed to match up to the "hybrid hype." They picked the WRONG car to compare to general "hybrid hype!!!"

Did anyone expect a 5L V8 luxo-limo weighing as much as a G-Class to live up to "hybrid hype?" I didn't. What it DOES do, is give you "hybrid" bragging rights in substitution of where most would like to claim "V12" bragging rights. Also, did people notice in the review that only 2,000 LS600hs will be sold in North America?

An ultra-exclusive V8 HYBRID luxury limo-cruiser with 430bhp, LED headlights, active stabilizers, fully-leather interior, touch-screen navigation, rear-seat DVD entertainment, world-class sound-system, most technologically-advanced safety features and guaranteed quality and reliability is "justified" at $111K to me.

The fact that this heavy, fully-loaded-up, full-size, long wheelbase sedan gets even remotely close to 20mpg is amazing to me. Anything more is a bonus.

I do see your point. The LS is a very fine car. I must admit that the LS600hL tested this week in AutoWeek looked beautiful- its shape might not be new or sensual, but the combination of perfect lighting, great backdrop and sexy optional rims was great. However, at this price, I'd stretch the extra $10K for the A8L W12 or 760Li. The performance difference is just too hard to resist. Of course, others would disagree. And if I wanted ULTIMATE in this class, there's only the S600.

When you put the S600 in perspective, it's not a bad deal, either. It has NO options, while on the W12 and 760Li, there are "Audi Exclusive" packages and "BMW Individual" options and all these hyper-expensive woods and leathers... in fact, I read about an Audi Forum event in NYC, in which they were showcasing a 2007 A8L W12 with gorgeous 20" rims, in a custom metallic light blue paint color, and super-exotic woods and leathers, loaded. It was about $175,000. A man walked up to the forum, and although the W12 wasn't for sale, he asked one of the men there how much the car was going for. When they told him it wasn't for sale, he pleaded, and wrote a check on the spot!

It's those kinds of things that make these cars special. In all honesty, were I looking for a luxury sedan, I'd take any of them.

But I'm not. And I'd take a C4S Cabriolet with my options for $115K instead!

It's not supposed to be a "good value" just like the cars it compares with is exactly the point people are trying to get across here.

Preferably everywhere Servor...

Will,

I agree with you that with this new generation the new LS has proven that they are a premium brand. However my favorite Lexus is not the LS it's in fact the GS. I'm a die hard German fan and you might have read from some of my posts but I do notice what Lexus is doing and they are doing everything on par to cater to it's consumers.

I don't think it's an S600, A8 W12, 760Li competitor because it's not. It wasn't designed to go head to head with those. It was simply a hybrid full size luxury sedan that's made with quality and catered to the people who want a comfortable and quiet ride. It's also a much more affordable alternative to the S550, 750Li, & A8's which is a good selling point for Lexus to withdraw buyers from the German market.

As for prestige it's really subjective and I'll leave that all to you guys but I personally do think the LS lacks the prestige of a European luxury sedan. BUT Japanese cars do have their own prestige nonetheless. Lexus does not in anyway try to jump from it's Toyota past. It's very much Japanese and it's obvious with their designs. Not a bad thing at all.

Topics like this get so heated because the Germans have their pride with German cars but Japanese fans have theirs too respectively. It's all fair game. Lexus is the baby of the pack in terms of world wide recognition for being premium but it has done wonders in the US market, a market which Toyota wanted to target from the get-go. I think even if it doesn't reach a world wide level of success, the sales in the US & CANADA will be a success already.

Lexus is understated and more affordable and for some it's what they want. There is no way to justify why a S600 is that much but it doesn't matter how much it costs because buyers of that segment will pay the extra amount regardless. It's like for a Rolls Royce, Bentley, or Maybach. How can we justify a car can cost that much? buyers of that range buys it because they can and they want to without questions asked.

The Lexus LS is the most affordable full size luxury sedan in it's segment and it's great for what it does. I, a German fan, will not take that away from the brand. I'm just trying to make some peace here with some of the Lexus supporters to show that a German fan can still recognize and respect another brand. Sorry guys i'm selling out as I would choose a German sedan over a Lexus but credit should be given where credit is due.

That's very sweet of you Agent63 telling us, that as a German fan, you respect Lexus for what they have accomplished, but would still choose a German Sedan over Lexus. That's the typical answer of ALL German fans on this site. No matter what Lexus does, they will ALWAYS choose a German sedan.

Until Lexus starts producing cars that have some sort of uniqueness/depth I am in the same boat at 63. Lexus does lots of things well but doesnt excite. The brand is about producing and marketing cars that are agreeable to many and exciting to few. The hybrid badge on the LS is used as a marketing tool and not an engineering advancement it should have been as the numbers are showing little benefit. The same is true for the parking gizmo, no real use except as marketing.

This strategy is what keeps me away from considering the Lexus brand, the image is too tainted with marketing hype, glitz, smoke and mirrors instead of unique design and engineering which should be at the core of the brand. I don't stay with German brands, but brands that have qualities I identify with, glitz and glam is not something I value, it just seems superficial.

I always thought a car nut would be interested in all cars, whether it's a Daewoo or a Ferrari.

And there is no concrete definition of which cars have "soul," or "character." Someone really enthusiastic about cars posses a natural interest in all things automotive.

All manufacturers need to market. Lexus is constantly penalized because they have the best marketing department? If the product weren't good, they wouldn't sell. I don't know what Lexus has to do to please any of you here. The team of engineers and designers that worked on the LS got my respect for the fine automobile that they produced.

Lexus will never have enough "soul" for skeptics. They'll do just fine without you. The rest of the world is already saying otherwise.

I am just saying that I can't stand the vibe that if it's not German it's not worth caring about.

And you can spare me your smugness.

David,

I give some credit to Lexus and you go and say something like that? I would buy a Lexus, but not the LS. I would prefer the GS for styling. If I wanted a larger luxury sedan I would get something else besides the LS. The styling is not my taste plain and simple.

It doesn't matter though, I got boosted and you're getting deboosted.

If self-parking and hybrid technology truly were just "marketing gizmos," one has to wonder why so many other manufacturers are planning their own self-parking and hybrid vehicles. Some time in the near future, alot more cars will be parking themselves and come equipped with hybrid powertrains. When these vehicles come, Lexus will be able to say they were the pioneers. Call that "marketing" or whatever you will.

Don't forget what the S-Class has been pioneers and innovative throughout it's generations and continue to do well. Also don't forget Toyota wasn't the first to make a mass produced Hybrid vehicle. The Honda Insight was the first mass-produced hybrid automobile sold in the United States.

So yes with proper marketing Toyota and the Lexus brand has done better. That is one thing Honda lacks but credit is given to Honda not Toyota for making the first hybrid car that's mass produced.

We ALL know how that the boosting system on this site is a great barometer.

david999, what is your problem?

This guy admits that the LS is a great car. SO HE PREFERS THE GERMAN SEDAN. What's it to you? YOU PREFER THE JAPANESE CAR. We get that!

BUT DOES EVERYBODY HAVE TO? Do we all have to want to buy the LS over the S-Class? Is that what you want? Everyone in the world drives a Lexus? What fun would that be?! You are a communist!

He stated that he would choose a German sedan over a Lexus, ie., any German sedan in his view is superior to the LS. There are many people that would not agree with that statement, myself included. How does this make me a communist? What grade are you in school?

How ignorant. You know EXACTLY what he meant. He didn't mean he'd take a used C240 over a new LS! He meant he'd take an A8, 7 or S over it! Is it that hard to see?!

According to Ironman273, C&D did a pre-production LS600hL:

0-60 5.4s 1/4mile 13.8s

50-70 3.1s! (for reference: GS450h did that in 3.6s; 550i in 3.8s; E550 in 3.7s)

20mpg observed.

Those are V12 performances, v6 FE!

Edmunds ran a 760Li with 0-60 over 6 seconds too, and Audi A8 W12 0-60 in 5.8s, 1/4m in 13.82s, slalom speed 61.3mph, slower than the LS600h.

Good to be Lexus fan. ^0^ Can't wait for Lexus official numbers to shut up all the haters here.

Stop implying that buyers of these luxo-sedans only care about 0-60 times and not mpg. You're looking desperate.

38 uk mpg is like 30 US mpg.

Also, according to S4cab, buyers of these types of vehicles don't care about reliability either. What horse dung.

because reliability is not a factor in today's modern luxury cars. Reliability is good for all of them, and yes, Lexus is at the top. after all they arent buying a 1980 Yugo...

I don't think they look at either one, mpg or 0-60. They are all pretty close so its all going to come down to design, image, history, prestige, again, that undefinable 'magic' which seems to allude Lexus.

And again, all LS600hL's are apparently sold out. All the "magic" in the world wont take away from the fact that people choose Lexus over the Germans all the time.

Sold out? There is a list, but sold out? Not yet. But probably I agree. But why? Because of the hybrid hype even with less than meaningful savings and thats something I don't see other manufacturers doing, releasing less then proven technology for the pure marketing benefit. Uneducated consumers thinking they are doing the environment a favor won't know the difference, see the hybrid badge and open their wallets. That just seems a bit too crafty for me. Hybrid on this vehicle is just wrong.

Mercedes rated last by Consumer Reports. Not all luxury makers are close.

In the US Market sure but not world wide buddy. You guys keep on thinking the US Market is the world but you obviously forgot where prestige all began. In European countries where Lexus does not dominate. Also hybrids do not dominate Europe as Diesel power does. Don't forget that.

Will, the twelve-cylinder sedans get about 4 mpg worse than the LS600hL. The fact that they range from half a second to a second and a half quicker to 60 outshines that figure. It's a much bigger % difference than the fuel economy advantage. THAT is an argument.

For those just joining us:

The new LS hybrid sucks.

It might be a complete sell out at the dealers, but it will still be a failure.

Even with David Copperfield driving it, the car will be devoid of that "magic" feeling.

That's correct. Luxury buyers don't want comfy cars, they just look at 0-60 times.

MPG? What is that?

Environment? Who cares?

Emmissions? Why bother?

German magical feel is everything. People take their s-class and 7er drifting and drag racing and on track days.

Have you even read ANY of our arguments? That the Lexus has NO advantage, neither over its competitors nor its lesser counterpart? Are both of you that blinded at this point?

You're basing your belief not on personal experience nor a summation of multiple reviews of the car, but rather a singular preview article.

That would seem to indicate that you are making the blind arguments.

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

it's really funny listening to all you guys try to justify a car that's inferior to it's junior sibling in so many ways.

The 600h is not completely inferior to its junior. It's just not worth the extra price.

this car is a bore. unexceptional in every way. name one thing that wealthy buyers care about that it does that is superior to its competitors. good luck.

next.

WOW! You guys have been up ALL DAY on this hybrid thing. Gonna get carpal tunnel raving/ranting about this 4500lb lump of metal. Earth day people!! I just finished watching "An Inconvenient Truth" an hour ago and this is all I have to say. I'm going to spend less time on these blogs and more on trying to get away from the infernal combustion engine. Here is Sf, CAlifornia, it's not a hard thing to do. One can literally walk across town to work, as indeed I do on almost all days that it isn't too foggy or rainy.
Still- at least Lexus is trying to make 'Hybrid' a household word. What are the Germans and GM/Ford doing? Bigger and bigger, fatter and fatter, heavier and heavier cars with engines that do NOTHING a hundred year old engine couldn't do.

That post was a load of crap.

You want fat and heavy? Look at the damn LS600h!

Stuffed to the brim with many useless gizmos, and a Hybrid system that seems to be a dead weight rather than any sort of benefit!

you want to save the Earth? Then don't blame the Germans for our problems. What a cop-out.

Fact is, Mercedes-Benz makes many lighter cars that are efficient on fuel and produce low Co2. Lexus's view that 'small cars harm our image' is in many ways detrimental to the brand as eco-conscious.

Fact is, lighter, more efficient diesel cars have LOWER life-cycle Co2 than a heavy, battery-crammed Prius or LS600h.

I would say the Audi A8 and Jaguar XJ are more environmentally-friendly than the LS600h, their light aluminium construction saves fuel and therefore emissions.

If we are to believe that the LS600h is so advanced, then why is it made from traditional steel?

Screw Hybrid hype, go light weight and efficiency!

WOW! You guys have been up ALL DAY on this hybrid thing. Gonna get carpal tunnel raving/ranting about this 4500lb lump of metal. Earth day people!! I just finished watching "An Inconvenient Truth" an hour ago and this is all I have to say. I'm going to spend less time on these blogs and more on trying to get away from the infernal combustion engine. Here is Sf, CAlifornia, it's not a hard thing to do. One can literally walk across town to work, as indeed I do on almost all days that it isn't too foggy or rainy.
Still- at least Lexus is trying to make 'Hybrid' a household word. What are the Germans and GM/Ford doing? Bigger and bigger, fatter and fatter, heavier and heavier cars with engines that do NOTHING a hundred year old engine couldn't do.

A8 - 4,321 lbs
XJ8 - 3,726 lbs
LS460 - 4,244 lbs
S550 - 4,465 lbs
750i - 4,486 lbs

honestly, your only choice for lightweight is the XJ8. but no one here will ever consider an XJ8. i mean, when youre already 2.5 tons, whats another several hundred lbs?

Only 278 comments? Come on, guys, let's go for 400!

...

s4cab: "You don't seem to understand.

Let me spell it out for you:

R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!

Is that really your only defense? "RELIABILITY?!" Is that just a fallback? And how do you know this car will be reliable? We don't even know how reliable the LS460 is yet! Reputations mean nothing... with all the new tech in these cars, it could've gone wrong. You can never just assume."


you can't assume, but you CAN LOOK AT cars' TRACK RECORDS.

that for mb is so horrible, CR recommends all of ZERO percent of all the models they have tested. toyota, including lexus, gets an 85% rate of recommendation. honda/acura 100%.

as far as magic feel, for the road test segments of their evaluations (most comprehensive and OBJECTIVE of all journo tests), bmw and mb both get a 77 test score. honda 78. toyota 70. vw/audi 81.

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1 (Benz specs show 5.4)
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the Lexus people.....