Car and Driver: LS600H L actually does well?

Please, never post anything from Car and Driver magazine.

No still don't see the point of a hybrid getting worse milage than its full gas sibling...

That's just embarassing. Did I hurt your feelings that bad?

the LS460 is the green choice.
best mileage overall of all three LS models.
still don't see the point of the hybrid for $40,000 more.

no, some of us still don't. $40k extra for the same performance as the base car (performance that is worse in every statistic than every competitor), virtually identical fuel economy to the base car (no one buys $100k+ cars because of fuel economy), and a trunk that's half the size of all the other cars in the class (it's literally smaller than a Honda Civic trunk)? No, not seeing the point of that. If anything the negatives of this car just solidify the LS460 as a better choice, like "we're going to build something so pointless that it'll make the base model car seem like the value of the century".

BUCK, the 760 actually IS a higher performance version the 750. And there's options you can't get on the 750 that are on the 760, which is not the case with the LS. From my understanding the only thing the LS600h comes with that you can't get on the LS460 is all wheel drive, and options aside the eprformance figures for the two cars are virtually identical. So you're paying $40k extra for AWD, negligible fuel savings (like that would matter in this class anyway), and identical performance, and as a bonus you lose half the trunk (which is typically one of the main reasons someone buys a huge car in the first place). Awesome. Where do I sign up?

Anyway you look at it, it looks like a $50 thousand dollar car.

-Sure looks better than the $50k motor home you're
-typing this message from.

50k, common lets be more realistic, 5-7k

Any minute he'll mention that he lives in the OC.

"Smooth and silent ride, strong acceleration, peerless refinement".

SULEV rating.

How can the badge whores keep arguing against this vehicle?

because the LS460 base model still gets better mileage and gets the same 0-60 time.

so what's the point of a hybrid for $40,000 more?

interesting that you call everyone who likes german cars badge whores.

so what do you can someone who will pay $104,000 (plus options) for a car that looks just like a $61,000 car? hmmm... maybe a 'badge whore?'

you're too funny. lol.

That's not true. I like many German cars.

Car and Driver review points out otherwise.

AMS are Germans. Remmember that.

What does that mean AMS are Germans.... most bloggers here are Americans....most Japanese magazine readers are Japanese... That was a silly comment.

wait...i thought car & driver is totally biased against lexus? you can't have it both ways boys. if you accept this review, then you have to accept all the shitty lexus reviews before it.

which is it?

crickets......

Cawimmer???
S4???
Fabian???
Rupert???

C&D is no friend of the Toy/Lex. But this review justifies a lot of what we (real) Lexus fans have been arguing for the past few days.

I'd bet they'd rather believe their preferred version of the "truth".

I think I'm back here now....what happened to MDalle?
(I'm not going to comment on the Lexus... :) )

I'm not trying to believe "my truth", but the other reviews all got it slower. I don't want the Lexus to fail, but the reviews indicated shortcomings. Hopefully the 0-62 will also be quicker than the quoted 6.3 seconds. 20 city mpg is also quite good for a car this size.
Although I still think (for Europe at least) an A8 4.2 tdi is better.
it does:Consumption (Urban) 21.2 mpg
Consumption (Extra-urban) 39.2 mpg
Consumption (Combined) 30.1 mpg
In Uk gallons, 30 UK is 25 US. And the Audi is cheaper than the Lexus here, and officially does 0-62 in 5.9 seconds.

toyotamarc, I just got here. I've been busy WORKING. Unlike many others on this site!

And I live in a completely different timezone!
I'm 5-8 hours ahead of the US!
And I was at school!

the ls600h is pimp.

I wonder if there's any chance Toyota will make a station wagon out of this hybrid platform so a REALTOR® might have enough room in the trunk for a dozen Open House signs?

^^When pigs fly?

What is the time from 0-60 again? 5.4-5.5 seconds that right. Take that German hotdog wagon lover.

LOL :) yeah...........suddently the German Fanboys don't want to say anything. Deny all you want German hotdog fanboys, that the really stat? what your excuse now? bias? gave a freaking break.

The Lexus LS600hl beauty and present is absolutely stunning. It is jaw dropping to see one of this baby on the road. If you wanted to be treated like royalty or a celebrity this Lexus LS600hl will get you that type of attention.

I'll say something, where is the style? Looks like a really long Camry. Now I would take an IS anyday. How about a Hybrid IS300??

Yes, yes, "Lexus," we know the LS600hL is slightly quicker than the LS460L.

However, "5.4-5.5 seconds" is utterly unimpressive for the power output. The S600 manages it in under 4.5, the A8L W12 at 4.9-5.1 and the 760Li at 5.3. The Jag Super V8 is also quicker.

S600 = 4.5 seconds to 60
S65 AMG = 4.2 to 60

bye bye lexus.

Personally I don't think Lexus cares what you think. Getting their butts kicked in performance only means things to u and I. They mesure success in sales. The goal is to take part of the market from Mercedes. They have so far succeded w/ their other products. I think this will be a success as well (as far as meeting their sales objectives).

I'll take the LS600h and save up the extra $40,000 for a down payment on a Tesla.
The S600 is faster, I'm not denying it, but it better be for a price approaching Bentley territory.

The S600 was compared to the Flying Spur last year... (by Motor Trend? Automobile?) and it won. That speaks volumes about its capability, refinement, style, comfort, technology, and price. Any way you look at it, of the cars in this class, the S600 is the closest to the Bentley-- and in some respects, it's BETTER. I think it's a bargain!

agreed.
LS600 is a 'value-priced' S600.
the same relative position as every other lexus.

right on again.

well actually the lexus numbers show like 5.3 ish while the regular LS460 is suppose to get 5.5 ish

its just a matter of whether they can replicate it.

You guys keep bringing the S600 in here. But if we go with naturally aspirated V12s like the bmw, and the audi, this beats it. Keep in mind this is the first V12 competitor from lexus, so you really cant expect them to take on a car thats almost double its price.

Now, please explain, how does this "beat" the 760Li and A8L W12? Both are quicker, have exclusive features over their eight-cylinder counterparts, have equally opulent interiors (if not moreso- depends on your preference), and aren't afraid to be $120K. You can uption an A8L W12 to uncharted territory if you get nice enough woods and leathers- it's possible to take any of the Germans in this price range into $200K. That is, if you have some very specific options. It's just a different stratosphere.

And, THIS isn't naturally aspirated. Granted, it's a V8. But it's positioned as a twelve-cylinder alternative.

they also have trunks that you can fit things in. I imagine many people will take long trips in their new LS, and the trunk is smaller than a 3-series thanks to the batteries.

Spending $40k extra for virtually identical performance is silly (every single competitor is quicker and handles better), and even if it got 50mpg it would take 10 lifetimes to justify the extra cost in terms of fuel savings.

If the the MB S600 cost up to $140K, than I might as well pay an extra 20K for the Bentley which has more prestige. With 552 hp and goe from 0-60 in 4.7-4.8 seconds.

The S600 is faster, better-looking, has more tech and is still an S-Class- which is quite a lot of prestige. IMO the Bentley Contis are "too popular-" the S600 is super-exclusive by comparison.

bentley and S-class customers are very different.
the S-class remains understated.
the bentley screams "LOOK AT ME I'M RICH."
many find that offensive.

bentleys are beautiful, but i'd never drive one myself.

I never said you can get a Bentley for 140K, I said the price of an S600 approaches a Bentley. The LS does not have to be faster than every V12, just as the 760 and A8 are not as fast. People have this starnge notion that a new car is going to beat every other existing car in every area. In this class, the Audi has the most stylish interior, the Bimmer handles well, the Jag exudes old world class, and the Benz has the most power. So what does the Lexus have to justify its price? The most luxury pampering, and the cleanest, most fuel efficient engine. Theu could have gone another route, but this was the choice they made. And a couple thousand buyers seem to think it was a pretty good idea.

The LS600hl was developed as an alternative to other V12 class automobiles. I don't think anybody from Lexus was making claims regarding superior acceleration times, only superior emission ratings. Again, these cars are for luxury, not Ferrari class performance.

not so fast....

many lexus fans on here were ranting and raving about this car running the V12s off the road, getting 25+MPG and handling like a performance sedan.

but somehow it didn't do any of those things. so why settle for less?

"I don't think anybody from Lexus was making claims"

People don't choose 600h over 460, but over 760Li, Audi W12, S600 etc. If they do choose 460, it is still a win for Lexus.

By the time the Germans come out with the next generation of engines, Lexus will as well (at least the next gen hybrid part of the engine.) You cant base an argument on that.

people won't be trading in 760s and S600s for this car.
brand loyalty at the high end is extremely strong.
most people buying the LS600 will be loyal lexus customers trading up from LS430s.

It's really funny how all German fans will not post one comment about this article lol...I knew that other article was all bullshit from the first minute.

"Cheap interior materials, noisy suspension, poor ergonomics, 6.3 seconds"?! Apparently that poor little German boy has problems with translating a few words into English.

thats your opinion. Lexus never said the performance would top the S600, and no one is saying it should. The prioirty was clearly not to have the top performance. There are other qualities in an ultimate Luxury vehicle.

exactly.
it's not an alternative if you have to compromise one thing to get more of another.

My gripe with Lexus is this.... there is no feelin, nothing special about it. Yes you can laden it with all the fancy gizmos and such like hybrids and self parking....but it doesn't feel special. Maybe this is because of its aesthetics. When I sat in an LS460, it felt plain...Yes the leather is nice, it sat well, but something was missing. Maybe the leather smell and the plastic smell of the new car reminds me of my friend's new Camry. There is still too much Toyota in here. And I am not saying Toyotas are bad, not by a long shot. They are just point a to point b cars, with excellent reliability and no frills in handling and such.
Now when I sit in a Mercedes or BMW there is a feeling. I can't explain why, there just is. Maybe because my senses don't sense it as another car. The BMW feels different. It does not feel like a MINI inside. Mercedes does not feel or smell like a Chrysler inside. It is hard to explain unless you really and truely have sat in all of these cars. I am a very open minded fanboy. I am a fanboy of all these cars, and I have a BMW 3 Series, but love the Lexus IS as well. So to all you lovers of cars out there I recommend to go to the dealer and try 'em for yourself, not go by a magazine, but by what you like. Choice is great!!!

Yes *sigh* atomic, you are correct.

"Now when I sit in a Mercedes or BMW there is a feeling"

This line never fails to make me giggle.

Good job Lexus. Nice car!

IMO it's a beautiful car. I actually like most Lexuses more than the Mercedes competition at each level, and I've always liked the LS, but Everytime I see the S class, I realize that it's the most beautiful.

20 mpg by C&D, I bet I could get 25mpg!

are you going to push it?

sometimes your comments are so immensely stupid that i literally start laughing. it's comedy.

Wow, I didn't expect any more from any of the fanboys (both Lexus and German fanboys) in this blog, but it's getting old.

Nor did I expect the Edmunds test results to actually reflect many other publications- sometimes, Edmunds gets 0-60 times that are completely off-the-mark.

Yes, this car is quicker than the LS460L; however, isn't it only by about 0.1 sec?

The LS600hL is... nice. I don't see it fighting for the top of this class, as the LS460 does, though. It just doesn't seem as "ultimate" as the S600, W12 or 760Li.

You should read M&T review
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0706_2008_lexus_ls_600h_l/index.html

"The 45-to-65-mph passing time-a revealing torque indicator-required 2.8 seconds from the 5220-pound hybrid, 0.3 slower than the 5556-pound Flying Spur (479 pound-feet) and 0.6 behind the 5013-pound S600 (612 pound-feet). Keep in mind that those competitors' 12 cylinders exhale via twin turbochargers; the 600h would likely fare favorably with the normally aspirated Audi and BMW."

Putting efficiency, value, elegant refinement, luxury, advanced techs etc. aside, LS600hL performs on par with Audi, BMW v12s.

Production car may not weight that much 5,220lbs.
Or the one without rear seat package may cut another ~200lbs.

Some magazines get 4.4 for the S600. Your point?

That's like me saying Edmunds got that 5.8 or something for the LS600hL, so that means all of the magazines are disproving Lexus's numbers. Not true! I know it's not true, and you know it's not true!

You taking away the added 800lbs doesn't make sense. The LS600hL DOES NOT WEIGH THE SAME AS THE LS460. If it did, the hybrid battery would not make any difference, because the only batterys that weigh nothing are triple-AAAs. What an incredibly stupid comparison.

i thought you were holding out for the coach edition of the RX-Fh?

This is nothing special.

Mercedes, BMW, and Audi have been making fast big sedans for years.

The S55, S63, S65 (all AMG) all do sub 5-second 0-60 in less than 5 seconds. The S600 (non AMG) version does it in 4.5 seconds. Some are V8s, some are V12s.

Mercedes handles better and loosk better.

Why buy this Lexus over a Mercedes?

BMW has their 765 variant and Alpina B7 that go sup 5 second 0-60 as well, for about 120k. The BMW out handles the Lexus.

Why by this Lexus over a BMW?

I could go on with other large sedans like the S8.

This is really nothing special.

atomicbri, what feeling are you talking about? You mean the magical feeling that the test driver for the BMW 335i has went it went overheat in the fourth lap.

Remember they did a comparison between the BMW 335i and the Infiniti G, and the BMW 335i got overheat in the fourth laps. Magical feeling...my A$$.............

spoken like someone who has neither driven many german cars.
and who doesn't really get into driving.

ah, yes, the one magical test of a BMW 335i Coupe where it broke down in the desert, a BMW 335i Coupe that was supplied BY INFINITI, at an INFINITI PRESS EVENT, where they were showing off THEIR COMPETITOR to the BMW that THEY SUPPLIED. Yes, that's the one. Why, of course from this one very suspect test we can therefore extrapolate that all BMW 335i Coupes would break. Apparently there are a lot of idiots on this site.

Why buy this Lexus LS600hl?

Better looking than the over farted BMW 7 Series, A8 and the MB S-class. Has that wow!...impression when you seen it on the street. People treat you like a star or royalty when they see you in one of this baby. And I can go on...and on...about why should people buy this instead.

drive up to a valet in an LS, a 760 and an S and see which one gets parked up front.

hint: it's not the bloated one with the camry front end.

correction, old farted etc...

if only lexus/toyota could make a decent diesel.....the germans have been doing that for nearly 50 years. why is toyota so far behind?

Hybrids are a much cleaner technology, that will be Lexus's focus. Many of the other brands are trying to jump on the bandwagon, but are finding it very difficult to duplicate.

yeah....21MPG, 900 pounds more weight, slower than its cheaper sibling, new battery needeed at 100k miles, toxic disposal to deal with. it is tough to match that.

Hey! Looks like the usual suspects are back defending their purchases. Awesome.

(i) Seriously, will people stop disputing half second zero-to-sixty differentials, a Honda Accord V6 does it in six and a half.

(ii) Most of these Lexus vs. German Car brand disputes are useless posts. Lets find a common ground here. For example, the new Ford Focus is shit.

(iii) Lexus drivers can burn out their keyboards blasting german makes, however, I continue to wait for a Japanese luxury brand that offers their highest displacement in a manual transmission (save the new Lexus IS-F)

(iv) Japanese reliability is consistently tops. Lexus builds a quality car, and probably one of the most reliable. It's no mistake that Toyota is on top. Perhaps that's why I don't drive one, I want a more niche vehicle.

Thanks!

you're sure the IS-F is going to have a manual? Every article I've read says it's going to have an automatic, making it more of a C63 competitor than an RS4/M3 competitor. Considering they went the opposite way of Mercedes AMG cars in terms of appearance, i.e. flamboyant like the M3 instead of understated like the C, Toyota probably will end up alienating the people who would have been most likely to consider the car in the first place.

The Aygo is tiny!
It's the size below all the cars you mentioned!
And Toyota's diesel is a Citroen one, and the Peugeot you mentioned is very heavy and has electric sliding doors! And with the more economical engine (which you ignored), the Peugeot 1007 has 64 mpg, and 115g/km.
The Polo TDi you mention is the performance one, the more economical one (which you ignored, again)gets 60 mpg! And the Polo is an old car!
You also used old data for the 1 series (or ignored the more economical one), the newer one has more power, and gets 60 mpg, and 124g/km. And that is 2 sizes bigger than an Aygo, it's the same size as a Golf.
The Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107 get exactly the same numbers as the Toyota Aygo, and nobody else makes such a small diesel car!
Renault Clio 1.5 Dci - size above Aygo, 6 Airbags (4 more than Aygo), and windows that actually wind down (the Aygo's pop open), along with a host of other safety features, 64.2 MPG, 117g/km. Toyota Yaris (the same size class as Clio) 1.4 D4-D, 62.8 MPG, 119g/km.
A nice new MINI 1.6 D Cooper, 64 mpg, 118g/km. And it does 0-60 in 9.6, compared to the Aygo's pathetic 16.8.
You never accept you're wrong, do you?

The Mini also has 2x the power of the Aygo, and weighs about 250 kg more (about 550 pounds more).


Obviously, the European fuel testing agency (or whatever it's called) has deliberately made up the Toyota's figures, and it is actually 3 times faster and economical.

I'm glad these numbers came out, of course. The LS600hL is not meant to appeal to value-seekers, which is why I still don't understand why people insist on claiming the LS460 is a better buy. Of course it is! Just as the 550 is a better buy than the 600.

The 'Hybrid' badge on this Lexus was placed there to function just as the 'V12' badges on the 600 were meant to function: it gives you some bragging rights. The 'V12' badge lets you claim a bigger and smoother engine. The 'Hybrid' badge lets you claim that you're friendly to the environment (regardless of whether it may actually be or not, the fact is, it IS more friendly to the environment than the V12s this car is up against).

the GS450h gets 20mpg overall observed mileage.
no lexus hybrid has gotten over thirty.
the C&D long-term test of the RXh got 24mpg overall.

That "pathetic number that I made up" is for the AYGO, not the YARIS.

Both power and Fuel Economy will increase with stronger batteries.

Huuey is the guy who insists that diesel needs 25% more oil to be made than petrol despite the fact that Mdalle, who actually had qualifications in something related to that business, proved it wasn't true, as diesel uses a different part of the oil from gas.
huu is a clever person with and old 4.0 Grand Cherokee, a stylish, well built and good handling car.
huuey loves changing the subject when he is wrong and deliberately ignoring good information.

One of those sentences was a lie, and the opposite is true. Can you guess what it is yet?

it still a nice car no matter how the numbers stack up, so all this flaming shyt is useless

what yall need to argue about, is which car company toyota can buy?

1...
2...
3... lets fill in the blanks LMAO

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1 (Benz show 5.4 in their specs)
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the Lexus people.....