Why Is Lexus Afraid To Turn The Heat Up On BMW?

Why Is Lexus Afraid To Turn The Heat Up On BMW?
Lexus, the solid and conscious value leader for the luxury car owner, never has ebbed too far from the center of mainstream luxury vehicles. Nor have they needed to.

Technological marvels until recently, have not been their forte, perhaps an unwarranted risk in their perspective.

Lexus cautiously (or wisely) takes tried and trued technologies and then infuses them it in their models over time in a proven and possibly more reliable manner. This formula has proven to be very successful for the leading maker. Not only by providing technologically competent vehicles a tad bit later, but to also solidifies their reputation as a reliability leader. After all who really uses all of those new half baked whiz bang gadgets?

BMW on the other hand (insert most any German brand here) believe in bringing cutting edge technology to the masses in shortest possible time frame. A techno geeks dream, so to speak. If you just have to have it, then BMW is for you. From their F1 inspired V10 masterpiece, to maybe the better left in F1 territory SMG transmission venture. Technology is the strong suit here, possibly foregoing the reliability factor, and maybe providing technology better termed as the “Bleeding Edge” rather than "Leading Edge". While gear heads may relish in the intricacies, the realists abhor the potential for repairs cost down the road. After all complexity equals danger as far as reliability goes.

Well as 001 and 009 have pondered over the last few weeks BMW has really upped the ante in the market, and given the buyer a real advantage, the best of both worlds. With BMW’s 4 year almost all inclusive warranty all of these complexities are now covered fully, and the out of pocket expense factor that many technophobes fear, is effectively nullified. The program is so complete that even every day service items that many makers do not normally cover are included.

According to Yahoo autos the BMW 525i expenses for maintenance and repairs over the course of the first 4 years will amount to zero out of pocket expenses for the owner.

On the other hand a comparable GS350 owner will incur an estimated $2,972 in maintenance fees, and $274 in repairs, for a total of $3,246 out of pocket expenses. Not bad really for 4 years, but compared to $0 it pales a bit.

The scenario pans out across the Lexus lineup with the magic number being around $3000 in associated costs for each vehicle examined.

So now the $64,000 question: Lexus has established itself at the top of the reliability charts why can’t they offer a warranty that is comparable? After all, if your car never breaks due to legendary reliability, then this should be a no brainer, right? The answer may be that $3,000 per car is a hefty chunk of change for Lexus to absorb on each and every model out that goes out the door. And this would obviously impact the bottom line.

However with the Yen at an all time low, and Detroit complaining the Japanese automakers are currently pocketing massive profits in a market slanted in their favor. The profit levels are at an all time high so that really isn’t an excuse.

Should Lexus continue to line their pockets with cash, maintain the current status quo, or should they step forward and put the nail in the coffin for the rest of the luxury market, and make an offer that no on else can match?

True reliability, and a promise to stand behind their workmanship better than the competition. You tell us.



SupraNeverBackSupraNeverBack - 5/3/2007 4:43:06 PM
-17 Boost
Haha..., what a nonsense article by 009.

You buy overpriced BMW to get lousy "free" services.

BTW, about leading techniques, BMW is a tiny little kid compared to Toyota/Lexus.



Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 4:48:57 PM
+9 Boost
BTW in my area you can drive a BMW for less than a comparable Lexus on most any model. So factor in the added expense of a Lexus payment and the inability of the warranty to stand behind the vehicle make it a topic.

I am seeing more drivers in my area move to BMW from Lexus due to the no hassle warranty and free service. Slowly but surely the neighborhood is moving from a Lexus centric area to BMW centric.

I realize some people will never switch, but those that shop around do.


Agent63Agent63 - 5/3/2007 5:57:04 PM
+10 Boost
That isn't a nonsense article. You just can't accept the fact BMW's guarantee is great. Performance & Handling combine a great driving experience. One that Lexus has been lacking ever since their debut.

IS-F is to be sure-footed but it will not drive like an M3. A GS-F if they will ever have one will handle sluggish compared to the might M5 as well as the E63 and S6/RS6. I think the IS-F will be better compared to the C63/RS4. The IS-F will have a great selling point however as the price for it will be lower than it's German counterparts. One that may boost some sales from the younger with less deep pockets.

Sure Lexus has some great ideas for their designs and technology but performance I believe is the only thing they need but they won't do because it'll be a huge risk to sacrifice comfort since many of Lexus owners are of elderly age they will not want a sporty stiff ride like the younger guys/gals do.

Maintenance is an important thing and if a company can have that covered for the customer it will be a selling point on its own.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/4/2007 2:31:01 AM
+6 Boost
if lexus are SOOO reliable, i don't understand why lexus can't offer free maintenance.


r_driver04r_driver04 - 5/4/2007 11:07:08 AM
0 Boost
BMW been building engines way before Toyota/Lexus. It's OK if you can't afford the Bimmer. Stick to your Camry/ES.


r_driver04r_driver04 - 5/4/2007 11:11:16 AM
+2 Boost
You have to offer free maintenance to get people to buy your car. This is how Infiniti and Lexus got such good start in the early 90s because the Germans were too dang costly to own and repair. And for less money you could get as nice of car that would run circles around BMW, Audi and Benz. So now, BMW's throwing you a "bone" to get you hooked up. It's all a game, it just depends on how much vaseline you'd like for them to use on you.


ccweemsccweems - 5/5/2007 7:54:32 AM
+2 Boost
Look at the recommended service intervals between the two makes. Lexus has fixed oil change intervals. BMW (and MB too) allow the computer to decide when to change oilwhich can be over 15K miles! BMW doesn't offer free maintenance, they are maintenance free!

Agreed it is easy to recommend close intervals when the customer is paying for it. Nonetheless if buying a used car out of warranty I would far prefer the Lexus over the BMW when both are maintained "by the book".

Also I thought the BMW fanboys were performance drivers. You really can't wait to get your free brake pads composed of 50% graphite? It was one of the happiest days of my automotive life to change the pads on my MB to high performance pads with only 10% of the dust.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/5/2007 1:03:46 PM
+1 Boost
you need to service a lexus?
i thought it just ran forever without any input.


VinnyPVinnyP - 5/5/2007 1:35:55 PM
+2 Boost
It's all about how the car is marketed. I am sure most BMW owners lease their vehicles so that they can trade in for the newer better model after 4 years, so the 4 year no maintenance cost thing plays into their hands. That is the best way to get a buyer to lease your vehicle, promise them they wont have to pay a dime for service. It is really BMW's loss when offering such a deal, because Auto Mechanics are not cheap, and the Labor portion of the maintenance still has to be payed for.

Fact is Lexus is comfortable where they sit, they know they do not need to swing any deals to get people to purchase their cars, because they do have that history of being dependable. Turning up the heat is not really on their agenda since they are already creeping up slowly on BMW, soon as the F-line is perfected then the heat will turn up and then the true rivalry between BMW and Lexus can begin.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 4:51:15 PM
+9 Boost
They are certainly able to do it, no question. But if you tout reliability as an asset, then you better back it like you mean it and have the best warranty in the sector. that is putting your money where your mouth is.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 7:56:02 PM
+2 Boost
bulldogz-

Never said anything about the warranty being voided on the Lexus. The Lexus warranty is just not as strong as the bimmers in many areas (IE: brakes pads and rotors for one).

The warranty also runs out a full year quicker than the bimmer. But in fairness the $200+ in repiars at the 4th year really isn't that much. The biggest expense is maintenance which in the third year is over $1,400. So all together the Lexus experience is a bit better than typical but the BMW experience of $0 may be considered a "true luxury".


VinnyPVinnyP - 5/5/2007 1:38:28 PM
+2 Boost
Nothing is stopping them, its just BMW is not something they are worried about.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 4:53:52 PM
-2 Boost
And just how often do you expect (keep bringing it in) to do that. The statistics clearly show you MAY bring it in one more time over three years than a Lexus. If you think otherwise then you are just kidding yourself.


raikkonenraikkonen - 5/3/2007 5:13:45 PM
+6 Boost
Agent009,

Are those "statistics" you rely on so much, also supporting your claim:

"I am seeing more drivers in my area move to BMW from Lexus due to the no hassle warranty and free service. Slowly but surely the neighborhood is moving from a Lexus centric area to BMW centric. "

Wow. Just because last year you drove around town 1 day and saw 10 Lexus cars and 8 BMW cars, on another day this year you saw 8 Lexus cars and 10 BMW cars ... there is a tidal shift in the market??? ROFL.

Isn't your job to provide facts, not random observations on your way to Starbucks? Get real. By the way, I'm a BMW owner. I just love how you make yourself look retarded to get activity on this site. Self-sacrificing - that's good.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 7:59:55 PM
+2 Boost
bulldogz-
Need facts go to Yahoo Autos as pointed out in the article, and look up the vehicle in question and find the ownership cost. It is all detailed there.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 8:10:53 PM
+4 Boost
raikkonen-

My job is to give a viewpoint and to spark conversations among other things. You do not have to agree with me on the subject matter, and actually I prefer you to state your arguments to the contrary. It opens eyes and changes minds for others.

I appreciate your misdirected concerns on me being self sacrificing however, I am a big boy now and can stand by my arguments. In this case might need to reflect upon your statement and gage the age appropriateness of it. To other it might seem you have taken it a bit too personal .



Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 8:18:23 PM
+4 Boost

I agree that in almost all technological categories, Lexus lags far behind. (this show signs of changing) But to many of their fans that is offset by sales performance. I am not of that belief.

To those that are of that mindset then the original VW Beetle is a better car than the ES series simply because it sold more copes . A ludicrous statement to be sure.

But I am a big believer that a company as profitable and as well run as Lexus is, should strive to be the best everywhere, and the warranty is a great place to start. Just ask Hyundai about that, they at least stand behind what the sell better than their competition and it shows.



Agent009Agent009 - 5/4/2007 2:31:43 PM
+5 Boost
Aston Martin is profitable and sells far less than 400,000 annually.


Designer1Designer1 - 5/3/2007 5:14:57 PM
+6 Boost
Well, BMW definitly cost at least $3k more than a Lexus, in all models, so that means BMW already charged you for its services if the car breaks or not, which means, they ripped you off basically.

Now, having special leases that would make me lease a BMW over a Lexus and claim that the BMW costs less, that's just not true. Why?

At the end of my lease term, or if I want to trade my car, I will still owe more on the BMW than the Lexus. So if the numbers are added, with no doubts the BMW at the end of the day will cost more. No one in the world will sell you something less than its price, so if the BMW costs more than a Lexus on the first day, but yet you pay less monthly payment on the BMW, on the last day when you decide to ride a bike instead of driving a car, returning or purchasing the BMW will still cost more than the Lexus.

Now, personally I don't want Lexus to match BMW's warranty, because if they will raise their price really so the buyer would really pay for the extra warranty.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 8:20:21 PM
+2 Boost
You call it a rip off, others might say it is a benefit. But there are other reasons why the BMW is justifiably more expensive just looks at the specs.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/4/2007 2:33:47 AM
-2 Boost
how are you getting ripped off if a BMW has a lower lease payment (due to significantly higher residuals than lexus) and free maintenance?


Caddyman07Caddyman07 - 5/3/2007 5:36:37 PM
-2 Boost
Never really thought of it but why does Hyundai have the best warranty (in the U.S. at least)? With the reputation that Toyota/Lexus AND Honda/Acura have, the should have the best warranties in the world...


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 8:21:12 PM
+1 Boost
They are proving a point and it is noticed.


webguywebguy - 5/3/2007 5:45:41 PM
+8 Boost
I think you answered your own question. Lexus treads cautiously with generally tried and true tactics... If every luxury car maker participated in this, Lexus would be on board yesterday; but I don’t think Lexus believes that BMW’s maintenance program is, by itself, taking noteworthy sales away. So... why spend the money on accounting restructuring and marketing efforts to explain to your customers why the price of each Lexus just went up by 4K?

Besides the sound of "free maintenance" as a purchase decision is being drowned out by the collective drumbeat of RS, AMG and M customers who point out the lack of a performance division. That’s the kind of tried and true cash flow that Lexus understands, and now "F" is on its way. When free maintenance shows an equal demand and corresponding pay off for Lexus, that’s when it will happen.



webguywebguy - 5/3/2007 7:49:44 PM
+2 Boost
It wasn’t my intention to bring "F" into the debate in terms of its formidability against German performance rivals, just in terms of what drives the Lexus decision making. The reason "F" exists is because Lexus sees rivers of cash flow they’re not swimming in. The same reason free maintenance doesn’t exist. Whether they (are going to) pull(ed) that off or not is a separate debate of which I’ve already posted a rather divisive opinion.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 8:26:22 PM
+2 Boost
OMG- you guys actually know what they are talking about and are making excellent points, I will keep on listening, keep it up guys, this is an intelligent conversation.


izfuneyizfuney - 5/3/2007 6:04:46 PM
+4 Boost
I think every body forgets that
1) Lexus is a one year old "Global" brand !
2) The raison de etre of Toyota has been affordable reliable cars for the masses. While they innovate a lot , their innovations are squarely amimed at making things more affordable and reliable for the average consumer.
3) Lexus will never be BMW and vice versa. This gives us two very distinct choices in the marketplace.

4) Free maintainance? I cant understand that ... You want to buy/lease a 60k + luxury mobile and then crib about how BMW throws in free maintainance? Stick to Aveo's please.



Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 8:57:09 PM
+2 Boost
Great points, I need to clarify Lexus/Toyota are great innovators. But their innovations until recently have been concentrated on the manufacturing side of the equation, not readily apparent to the casual observer. This is why they are so consistent and reliable, they wrote the book on the processes. This is why they need to back it up with a world class warranty as well.

BMW excels in bringing innovations to the consumer (fully baked or not), they also know how to make a car feel as if it is an extension of the driver not simply a tool to drive. Both of these strong points have their advocates.



enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/4/2007 2:34:51 AM
-2 Boost
how is lexus a "one year old global brand" if they've been selling in europe since 1990. get your facts straight.


RupertRupert - 5/4/2007 10:04:32 AM
+2 Boost
global means the world, and there is such a thing as the Eastern hemisphere.
Japan is what I'm trying to say, they used to be Toyotas.


EL34EL34 - 5/3/2007 6:18:08 PM
+4 Boost
"Why Is Lexus Afraid To Turn The Heat Up On BMW?"

Because Lexus tries to be a jack of all trades.


r_driver04r_driver04 - 5/4/2007 11:16:23 AM
+1 Boost
And BMW doesn't it? Please, explain.


ExGCExGC - 5/3/2007 6:29:59 PM
+5 Boost
One thing that isn't being addressed here is the effect of reliability on the average car owner - even the average luxury car owner, irrespective of cost. Many of us need our cars on a daily basis - we don't have a spare sitting in the garage. After ridiculous unreliability in my 530i and my CLK430, and the inability of those dealers to have an adequate stock of loaners to avoid a three week wait for one, I leased an IS350 over a 330i because I knew it would work when I had to go to work. The 330 was $100 a month less on the same terms and had the maintenance. Would I rather drive the Bimmer? Absolutely. Can I afford to miss meetings and deal closings because my car doesn't work. Nope.


r_driver04r_driver04 - 5/4/2007 11:17:36 AM
+2 Boost
Excellent point my good man.


indoctrin8edindoctrin8ed - 5/3/2007 7:23:11 PM
0 Boost
I've owned two Mercedes, one Lexus and five BMWs (Three M cars). I drive my cars very hard, but not abusively.

I had more trouble with the Mercedes E55 AMG than all my BMWs and Lexus combined.

It's my conclusion that if you baby your car, a Lexus will last a little bit longer.

If you drive your cars hard, the BMW will last the longest, and the Lexus will break first.

The reason why I think the BMW Maintenance program rocks is because I can ENJOY driving my cars hard and not worry about what might break. When I drove my Lexus hard, I had to worry that stuff would break, because it did.


Will_Will_ - 5/3/2007 10:35:26 PM
0 Boost
Your notions that Lexuses "break first" when driven "hard" are a bit questionable. First, what Lexus models were you driving "hard?" Second, what is your definition of "hard?" Third, I think you're confusing track performance with the car's general wear and tear. It has been proven that BMWs break down even during hardcore performance driving.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 10:51:11 PM
+3 Boost
I don't think he meant track time fo the Lexus. Lexus cars with few exceptions and race tracks typically don't mix.


printhanprinthan - 5/3/2007 8:00:39 PM
-2 Boost
a whole lot dreams about Lexus with less reality.

Everyone talkin abt IS-F, somethin that neva driven by a customer, and more talking abt competiting w/ M3 / C63 AMG / RS4

For kids, a cookie can be their world


indoctrin8edindoctrin8ed - 5/3/2007 8:02:45 PM
-3 Boost
If BMW is making you pay up front, then why is it less expensive to purchase a BMW than a Mercedes? What is Mercedes doing with the extra money? Rip off.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 8:58:53 PM
0 Boost
They haven't stepped up to plate either


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/5/2007 1:10:05 PM
+2 Boost
how about lexus offered to take back the car if the consumers decides it hasn't lived up to "perfection" claimed in the tagline. big promise.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/5/2007 1:12:27 PM
+1 Boost
oh but you're wrong.

'magic feel' as YOU call it (i call it responsive handling and brakes) is entirely tangible. and tangible only. you can't use numbers to explain it.


vikastvikast - 5/3/2007 9:05:06 PM
+4 Boost
Lexus doesn't offer free maintenance, because it doesn't need to. People are going to buy the car regardless - Lexus has a hard earned reputation for durability and reliability. Moreover, Lexus is not typically perceived as having outrageous maintenance costs and hassles.

What one really needs to ask is why does BMW offer free maintenance? Typically, when manufacturers have earned a negative reputation, they will invoke a new warranty to demonstrate they are "putting their money where their mouth is". When Hyundai earned its initial reputation for poor reliability, they put up their 100,000 mile warranty to signal to the consumer that they are a lower risk purchase. Chrysler did the same thing in the 80s, GM just increased their warranty for the same reason. Even when Lexus and Infiniti showed up on the scene in 1990 and had no reputation (positive or negative), they created industry leading 60k mile bumper to bumper and 70k mile powertrain warranties to signal that they are a low risk purchase.

Similarly, BMW, Audi and Mercedes all invoked free maintenance programs since one of the objections many people had to German cars was the perceived cost of parts and maintenance. Audi and Mercedes have both backed away from their maintenance programs leaving BMW alone with a free maintenance program. Perhaps BMW is admitting they are still plagued with high maintenance costs and feel they need to keep the warranties in place in order to avoid losing sales to Lexus or Infiniti.



Will_Will_ - 5/3/2007 9:56:42 PM
-2 Boost
Yes.

Part of the appeal of purchasing a BMW is free maintenance and other factors that will save the buyer money, all regardless of the fact that they'll be paying more upfront for their vehicles in the first place.

In retrospect, unlike BMW, Lexus doesn't need special warranties and free service to entice customers over to their dealerships.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 10:54:41 PM
0 Boost
so you are of the opinion BMW may have needed it for good PR. And Lexus uses extended warranties for an extra profit source at the dealership level?


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/5/2007 1:17:03 PM
+1 Boost
why BMW has offered free maintenance....

a lot of it has to do with the need to replace brake pads/rotors frequently on BMW. softer pads in BMWs provide much better brake feel but need to be replaced often. and since BMWs seem to inspire hard driving, brakes are needed often (i average less than 10,000 miles).

whatever the reason, free maintenance doesn't affect my choice of car. but it's a damn nice perk!


farabira1farabira1 - 5/5/2007 7:55:06 PM
+1 Boost
agree with you here vikast. Even in my post I am arguing that if BMW is so well perceived by potential buyers then why do they have to attract customers with special deals. Certainly they must know that without this sort of deals people are going to deviate further toward lexus.


Will_Will_ - 5/3/2007 9:57:15 PM
-1 Boost
And don't even get me started on the title of this article!


david999david999 - 5/3/2007 10:39:52 PM
-1 Boost
Fear of reliability problems is why BMW has to offer free maintenace. It's just another selling point to try and push cars out the door along with lease incentives. Lexus still sells more cars in North America, even without free
maintenance.


Agent009Agent009 - 5/3/2007 10:56:36 PM
+3 Boost
Sales just means that sales. It doesn't mean anything other than a marketplace dynamic.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/4/2007 2:37:16 AM
-3 Boost
if that's your logic, why doesn't mercedes have to offer free maintenance? from 2002-2004 mercedes had issues and still no free maintenance. furthermore, bmw still tops them in quality. please explain.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/4/2007 2:41:30 AM
-2 Boost
the only place lexus 'outsells' the germans is at the entry level.
108,000 RX and 75,000 ES...that's 60% of the brand folks.

at mid-level luxury (E, CLK, SLK, ML) and premium luxury (S, CL, CLS, SL, GL) mercedes crushes everyone in sales.







atomicbriatomicbri - 5/4/2007 8:14:23 AM
+1 Boost
Actually BMW sells more cars in N. America than Lexus according to 2006 Annual Auto Sales. 313,609 BMW, 302,489 Lexus


david999david999 - 5/4/2007 9:49:13 AM
+4 Boost
Mercedes should offer free maintenance. That is one of the reasons they trail Lexus and BMW in sales. Being rated worst for reliability by Consumer Reports is not a good selling point.


david999david999 - 5/4/2007 9:53:00 AM
+2 Boost
enthusiastx11, the majority of BMW sales are attributed to the various entry level 3 series models. Should we deduct points for that?


david999david999 - 5/4/2007 9:56:10 AM
0 Boost
atomicbri, you are correct. I really was refering to US sales, not including Canada.


Will_Will_ - 5/4/2007 4:15:09 PM
+3 Boost
Lexus sold 332K cars in 2006.

And you Germans can keep calling for the removal of RX and ES sales, in return all 3-Series, X5, C-Class and ML-Class sales should be removed as well.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/5/2007 1:08:38 PM
+3 Boost
as buck explained above...

maintenance has nothing to do with reliability. a warranty covers those types of issues.

maintenance is about oil changes, brake pads, rotors, etc. it's a very nice plus offered by BMW. and since i--and many other BMW drivers--drive the cars hard those three things alone can really ad up.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/5/2007 1:22:17 PM
+2 Boost
david:

re: "the majority of BMW sales are attributed to the various entry level 3 series models. Should we deduct points for that?"

my comments stand. as i've said, lexus 'outsells' the germans at the entry level in total (i'm on your side here genius). however, benz crushes everyone in volume at mid and premium luxury. read above again.


cdokecdoke - 5/3/2007 11:25:46 PM
+3 Boost
It is clever, at least from BMW’s standpoint, to pre-charge for their maintenance. It is a simple time value of money problem. It maximizes the value to them if you give it now as opposed to later.


r_driver04r_driver04 - 5/4/2007 11:21:54 AM
+2 Boost
Does it? I mean the cost of materials and labor are cheaper now than they will be in 3 or 4 years. And they are 99.9998% certain that that car with the Spinning Prop emblem on it will be back in the service bay for a repair several times before the end of the maintenance plan. C'mon, it's world known that BMW's eat up disc, rotors and wheel bearings quite quickly. How the heck else do you get such short stopping distances!!!


2JZSoarer2JZSoarer - 5/3/2007 11:55:04 PM
+3 Boost
People must not realize that they pay for their service on the lease or purchase agreement,remember nothing is free in this world,don't fall for that zero maintenance gimick...


vikastvikast - 5/4/2007 1:48:37 AM
+4 Boost
Yes. I believe that BMW instituted free maintenance in order to overcome the perceived notion of high maintenance costs.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the extended warranty question. All manufacturers offer extended warranties as potential dealer profit generators.

With respect to the warranties - let me just make some basic points:

1. Lexus backs up their vehicle quality / reliability with a better vehicle warranty than BMW. BMW’s warranty is a 4 years / 50k miles “bumper to bumper” warranty; whereas, Lexus’ warranty is 4 years / 50k miles “bumper to bumper” and a 6 years / 70k miles powertrain warranty.

2. Although Lexus could back up their cars with better warranties at probably negligible cost, they probably will not choose to do so. Providing a longer vehicle warranty fundamentally affects the value proposition for their Certified Pre-Owned cars. If Lexus backed the car with a 100k mile “bumper to bumper” warranty, all they are doing is taking away one of the main reasons to purchase a Certified Pre Owned car from Lexus. They will probably want to protect their CPO business model. Moreover, I believe that many people who have Lexus (or any luxury car for that matter) either lease these cars or are in a financial position to trade in at around 50k – 60k miles. For these people, having a longer warranty will mean little.

3. Lexus does not provide free maintenance, since prospective owners may not view maintenance as a significant expense. Lexus cars can be serviced pretty much anywhere. As a result, it probably does not truly cost $3k to service a Lexus across 4 years.



r_driver04r_driver04 - 5/4/2007 11:24:48 AM
+4 Boost
Most people seldom drive their cars past their warranties. Logic says, "Why have a car payment on a vehicle that's out of warranty?" And that's what keeps these luxury cars under that 50K mile marker on their first owner/assignments.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 5/4/2007 2:30:19 AM
-1 Boost
because lexus are really comfy reliable luxury sedans.
but they're totally boring to drive.


Agent63Agent63 - 5/4/2007 4:10:34 AM
+4 Boost
I think that is the difference between Lexus and it's competition. They make great cars and I will never take that away from them. BUT there is no excitement in driving a Lexus. It's very civilized even more than Mercedes. The difference is Mercedes make cars that are civilized as well but with more precision in handling.

I think Lexus and Mercedes concentrate more on the luxury aspect more than BMW and Audi.

For primarily luxury I would choose Lexus/Mercedes and for sport-luxury the Audi/BMW would be my choices. It really depends. Each brand has their taste and each brand have their own selling point as well as pros and cons.

No matter how much we argue and how long we all flamewar no matter what we say styling/luxury/prestige is all subjective.

In different countries are different markets and different views on cars and brands. Lexus was targeted for the US so for sure American's as well as Canadians will love the brand. In Europe The Audi/BMW/Mercedes is favored because it's their domestic.

It's all fair game no matter how you look at it.


Will_Will_ - 5/4/2007 10:58:22 AM
+1 Boost
And yet Lexus consistently has higher customer satisfaction rates than anyone. BMW offering free maintenance to satisfy customers, or to appease their unreliable shortcomings in the first place? Free maintenance is exactly what you just said: a marketing ploy to make customers feel good in their decisions. Who is the mastermind of "marketing" now?


Will_Will_ - 5/4/2007 4:21:27 PM
+2 Boost
The more important question is: why are people allowed to defend and justify their German purchases, but Lexus owners are not? Both sides try to "justify" why they bought their cars, or else we wouldn't be here! I'm sick of people trying to play it out as if Lexus owners think they are inferior because they "justify" their purchases. Clearly Lexus is better than the competition in many aspects already. Quality, reliability, refinement, etc. but of course we're not allowed to say those things without being deemed a "fanboy" or whatever. On the flipside, Germans are allowed to mention magic feel all day and have not a word said...


Agent009Agent009 - 5/4/2007 4:36:33 PM
-1 Boost
Will has the correct answer. Lexus is the one with the momentum and many say they are the leader So as a leader the question was posed to them.

When a leader you should lead on multiple fronts.



atomicbriatomicbri - 5/4/2007 8:16:19 AM
-1 Boost
Mark my words....Lexus will offer it! ; )


r_driver04r_driver04 - 5/4/2007 11:27:52 AM
+2 Boost
You're nuts. Go drive a 115K mile Lexus and 70K BMW. If both are maintained properly the Lexus is still a better car. Now, that's not to say that it won't get beat like a dog at the track or stoplight to stoplight. Do you drive because you like driving or because you have a paper route to run. The paper boy needs reliable transportation.


EnnNorakEnnNorak - 5/4/2007 12:56:58 PM
-2 Boost
BMW tries harder and Lexus probably has a fear of failure.


stevenv1999stevenv1999 - 5/4/2007 12:59:41 PM
+6 Boost
Wow, there are a lot of comments and I pretty much read them all. The thing that no one seems to acknowledge is that Lexus might not be trying to attract a BMW customer at all? Lexus has not only built a loyal customer base, but they also understand their customer's wants and needs better than anyone else and of course that is the reason they are number one. Their base does not ask them to build a "BMW competiter" or "try and behave more like a BMW". Also, guy's, stop with the, "I am so right and you are so wrong attitudes". It is not passion, but ignorance.


cdokecdoke - 5/4/2007 2:06:01 PM
+3 Boost
r_driver04,

"Does it? I mean the cost of materials and labor are cheaper now than they will be in 3 or 4 years."

Well, the question that has to be asked is whether it is cheaper for BMW. I wouldn't imagine that parts become more expensive as a function of time, that is to say there is no apprrecdiation within that 3-4 year span. I may be wrong on that for all I know. Labor probably does progressively become more expensive, but I would imagine that as a percent BMW can earn enough to overcome that, as lare corporations usually invest in things where their rate of return is significantly higher than what a single person would do.

In addition, even if there is appreciation in costs to BMW for both labor and parts, this will either partially or completely be offset by teh time-value-of money calculation. That depends on teh specifics used in the equations. $5,000 today is worth more than $5,000 tomorrow is worth more than $5,000 a year from now. So you can tolerated some increase in the costs and still have a very nice net present value.

Even so, I am sure BMW charges enough for service as to show a net gain, so they not only gain a percentage what you spend based on investment, but also most don't spend all of that allowance. I'm sure they do risk analysis to determine some threshold or percentages over some threshold.

...my take on it.


cdokecdoke - 5/4/2007 2:06:55 PM
+2 Boost
sorry about the typos.


LB13LB13 - 5/4/2007 6:01:26 PM
+4 Boost
Thanks for bringing up many valid points SoCaL and I agree with you that this is the best posts I have ever seen on this site. I normally just read the posts and laugh like a crazy person. This is the 1st time I've ever been inspired to actually join in. Thanks for keeping this discussion intelligent and insightful.

Any luxury brand will drive, look and feel better because luxury = expensive wherever you are in the world. Most of my friends drive luxury brands like MB, BMW, Lexus, Audi & Porche...not unusual, however we are all women in the 25-40 age group. We drive luxury brands because we live in Southern CA and we can obviously afford to. We're not spoiled, just competitive and great in our various careers. My closest friend is a diehard BMW fan, the day she will leave them will be the day she can afford a Bentley. I am on my 4th Lexus and have had the pleasure of also driving just about every luxe brand out there. I have a favorite model in every luxe line-up, however, my next car will more than likely be the new IS-F or the latest GS available.

What keeps us hooked is service! Various BWM & MB dealers have fantastic service...Lexus has phenomenal service!!! Free service or no free service, when you are hooked up like royalty and consistantly treated with honesty and fairness you can't help but keep coming back. Face it, male or female, if you can afford to buy or lease a luxury vehicle you can afford to maintain it. The geniuses at Lexus know this, they make a fabulous product with max appeal and they back it up with a 4/50k basic warranty and 6/70k powertrain warranty. To cement their niche they top it off with legendary service. I love being recognized by face in person and by name when calling my service center. I am always given a Lexus loaner and my repairs whether covered by warranty or maintenance that I pay for are explained to me. I don't feel patronized for being a woman.
Like most everyone here, you cannot put a price tag on my time...if I could buy back sleep hours I've lost, I'd be broke. If I don't have enough time to sleep, I definately do not have time bring my car in for a repair covered by my warranty in between my services. My girlfriends do...I don't! My precious free time is not wasted.
Bottom line Lexus can do whatever they damn feel like doing. They deserve respect for what they've accomplished in just under 2 decades...other brands are still striving to reach the point Lexus launched from. I wish them luck!!!



vdivvdiv - 5/4/2007 3:49:00 PM
+1 Boost
I think what Agent009 is trying to tell people on the market for a Toyota/Lexus is to buy a Hyundai ;)


Agent009Agent009 - 5/4/2007 4:39:41 PM
+2 Boost
Good try, but not quite!




vdivvdiv - 5/5/2007 10:59:14 PM
+1 Boost
Well, someone should. Hyundai is the Samsung of the automotive market, Toyota is the Sony. The Hyundai cars are better products at a lower price.


indoctrin8edindoctrin8ed - 5/4/2007 10:35:15 PM
-3 Boost
Rice, you're a dumbass, and precisely why BMW is selling more cars than Lexus is, and precisely why Lexus wants to sell sucker service "recommendations" that aren't needed. This crackerjack upselling of crackerbox service items is for suckers and Lexus dealership makes a lot of money off of this. BMW does not do this.

Maintenance coverage is about cost of wear. Warrantee is to insure (and assure) the customers purchase against failure. Don't confuse the two. BMW's pre-owned certified cars have a better warrantee than Lexus does, and that's not even including the maintenance aspect of it.

I've owned a Lexus and the service department really soaks you will all sorts of crap you don't need so they can make money. Fluid flushes that aren't needed, bs injection cleaning offers, etc, that are all gimmicks.

With BMW, they don't give you any more than what you need and the consumer knows it. Why? Because it's on THEIR dime once the car is sold, and that means an honest relationship. I've never seen so much upselling crap on unncessary service as I got at the Lexus dealership.

Lexus doesn't go with this business model because there is so much profit selling sucker adds on gimmicks to Lexus owners, especially the chick owners, like you.

As for warrantee, BMW has a better warrantee to boot than Lexus does, and I'm not even talking about the maintenance program.

This is one of the reasons I quit Lexus.


indoctrin8edindoctrin8ed - 5/4/2007 10:43:33 PM
0 Boost
And by the way, I drive my cars very hard (I'm a true driver's enthusiast), and I like that BMW does not penalize me for this, as I'm already getting taxed heavily by replacing rear michelins every 5k miles and fronts every 8k.

BMW takes the worry out of driving your car the way it was intended to be driven.

If you want to baby your car, and drive it soft, don't appreciate the serindipidy of break dust on your front rims and, while driving back from Starbucks you will want to make sure buffy doesn't spill her latte, then go by a Lexus. You're not the kind of person BMW wants to sell a car to anyway.

Clear evidence of this the fact that BMWs least dignified feature is their cupholders. This is because BMW owners are too busy driving their cars to need an array of cupholder technology and don't need help parallel parking.



XYZZXYZZ - 5/5/2007 7:27:18 AM
0 Boost
...



XYZZXYZZ - 5/5/2007 7:47:10 AM
0 Boost

SoCal:

"5. Next point, on reliablity and Lexus dropping. If you actually read what they base this on (just like problems reported per 100 vehicles), the majority of Lexus "problems" are not mechanical ie: noises and rattles. as apposed the other manufacturers. Which i think is understandable becuase i guarentee you that our Lexus customers complain about theese type of issue way more then say BMW and Merc owners where these type of issues are inherent to a performance type vehicle."


on top of which, most of the changes in rank tends to be JUST on INITIAL QUALITY figures. who CARES where a brand is ranked after just 90 days. or even 36 months for that matter.

CR has a chart showing the problem rates up to TEN YEARS out. at that age, toyotas have a problem rate of just 60 per 100. vw has 175 per 100 cars.

(lexus is not specifically included with toyota in this chart, nor audi with vw, altho CR does group each pair, elsewhere in their "Automaker report cards.")

put another way, and relevent to this thread title, other car brands only get to the following ages, when they match the problem rate of 10-year old toyotas/lexuses:

Honda 7.2
Nissan 5.3
Ford 4
Hyundai 3.6
Chrysler 3.5
GM 3.3
VW 3.0

other german brands are not listed. (possibly too few owners keep them beyond the warranty to provide CR with a sufficient sample.)

bottom line: Lexus DOESN'T NEED longer warranties.
not when their 10 year old vehicles are still as reliable as most others' cars merely 3-4 years old.










farabira1farabira1 - 5/5/2007 7:51:26 PM
+5 Boost
Well seems like bmw is very far behind in customer satisfaction and possibly that is why they are being forced to pay up the service costs from their pockets. Please don't tell me that BMW is doing this because they think that this is the right thing to do, but I am sure that they are doing it because they know that their customers tend to back away from a bimmer when they think of the high maintainenance costs that come with buying one bimmer. And certainly they must have realized that they are far behind Lexus in terms of reliability and possibly can not guarantee such standard of reliability in the short run and that is why so that they don't lose customers they are being forced to give away such deals just to attract customers back. What I am saying may not sound pretty but makes a logical sense. Otherwise why would any auto company give services for free? I am a ferrari fan, and I am kind of shocked to see the pro german feel of this group of bloggers. If you guys can't digest any bad comment about german auto companies, you guys respond by "dropping the boost" of others who might have something to complain.


TruenoAE86TruenoAE86 - 5/5/2007 11:48:21 PM
+1 Boost
If I could only have one car for my daily use, I would definitely stick with Acura or Lexus. Reliability is extremely important when you could only have one car.


CutTheBSCutTheBS - 5/6/2007 2:21:46 PM
+3 Boost
A lot of people here aren't seeing the big picture. BMW is not offering "free" maintenance out of the goodness of their hearts.

For example, take a BMW 530i vs a Lexus GS 350 with similar options (18'' wheels, keyless go, heated seats, etc). The MSRP of the BMW is $55,754 while the Lexus is $47,147. That's about an $8,600 difference! Go to the brands' respective websites and build each car if you think those figures are off.

I'm not saying that makes the Lexus a better car; that's up to the buyer, and as long as the two brands exist there will always be a heated debate as to which one is better. The simple fact is that both brands make great but very different cars, and BMW fans will buy BMW and Lexus fans will buy Lexus.

However, if you compare only the cost/benefit of the BMW "free" maintenance to the Lexus that doesn't include maintenance (although they do include the first one), it just doesn't add up. Are people really that ignorant to think buying a car that costs $8,600 more up front is a smarter buy than one which will cost about $3,200 over four years? I hope not!





indoctrin8edindoctrin8ed - 5/6/2007 5:16:31 PM
-1 Boost
I called a friend of mine who is the GM for a local dealership to find out the REAL reason why other manufacturers besides BMW don't do the maintenance program.

He said "the reasons it's not as popular with other manufacturers is because [the dealerships] make a lot of money on things that are 'recommended by dealer service' and not 'necessary per the manufacturer'.

When the maintenance program is in place, the manufacturer will not pay for 'unnecessary items', and this cuts profits at the service center".

Makes sense to me. So go ahead Ricemaster, get your Lexus and all the rip offs they talk you into that you don't need. I'll stick with my BMW and drive it hard without worry.


XYZZXYZZ - 5/9/2007 9:30:31 AM
+1 Boost

8ed:

"When the maintenance program is in place, the manufacturer will not pay for 'unnecessary items', and this cuts profits at the service center".

"Makes sense to me. So go ahead Ricemaster, get your Lexus and all the rip offs they talk you into that you don't need. I'll stick with my BMW and drive it hard without worry."


ALL dealerships and shops generally try to talk owners into paying for unnecessary services. they do need to generate revenue.

and this may be more true of toyota and lexus stores, as they have FAR LOWER VOLUMES of real repair work.

it still devolves to the customer to decide what's really NEEDED (by the owners' manual) and what's just being SOLD to him.

and it still seems just as hyundai started 10-yr warranties to dispell past memories of unreliable cars, bmw offers 'FREE SERVICE' to counter memories of HIGH MAINTENANCE costs.

have they outsmarted the buying public? or are just paying for past sins? does it really matter? economic minded buyers still buy what makes best economic sense to them.



bigj91bigj91 - 5/11/2007 1:41:16 PM
+1 Boost
I've studied in japan for over 2yrs, the culture I believe is one of the reason why lexus/toyota isn't going trying to get customers from bmw. Same reason why acura is so lackluster. Toyota is slowly changing to actually following the customer needs, not corporate/Japanese culture. The other reason is plainly business, if you look at market stats, you will see Mercedes selling more than bmw, why? Because majority of the people are like my parents, who after test driving bmw, said it is too harsh, they like the way mercedes feels and looks, also remember the mercedes brand is more renowned in their minds. Toyota /lexus wants the mercedes/cadillac crowd first, then bmw. Also toyota is very aware of stereotyping, and the hate that comes with being a foreign company.


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