AutoBild: Audi A6 3.0 TDI vs BMW 530d vs Lexus GS450h vs Mercedes E320 CDI

And there is plenty of evidence.

They do compete. That's why this is a competitive comparison.


Wake up.

The GS450 is not targeted at cheap economy diesels.

And you think some Americans who review these cars aren't biased as well? Don't forget Lexus was a targeting America's market when they first introduced.

Even if they weren't biased the Europeans probably still like the German ride more. I for one like how Lexus ride as they are comfortable but it lacks that solidity I'm looking for that's in a German. Either way my LS460 is good but my 550's got more appeal and is more rich in European luxury.

Anyways the GS450H is not a bad car. It's a great car but I guess against the diesels it lacks the performance and in terms of handling it can not compete with the Germans on that. It is a great outing by Lexus though. The GS is my favorite Lexus! so in that regard go Lexus! haha

Mitch,

Bluetec is not cheap technology. If you talk about eco isn't Hybrid technology aimed for people who want to save some money as well as help the environment? Don't think Lexus is trying to up one on the diesels. Remember Honda came out with Hybrid first and then Toyota NOT LEXUS.

houston:

they love lexus in europe? i don't think so.

the biggest lexus market in europe is britain. and they only sold 11,000 cars there last years. and they've been there since 1990. the volume on the rest of the continent is TINY. and considering that europe has DOUBLE the population of the US, that's pretty horrible.

Those German cars aren't "cheap economy diesels", they are premium cars that happen to have advanced and highly efficient diesel engines. The Lexus can't compete because all the hybrid tech (read battery) is still too expensive.

With your Logic a Lexus is a rebadged toyota too. Funny you fail to say that.

Unbelievable comparison yet again. Why test a hybrid GS against standard V6s? So that they fail it because of its high price and small trunk? lol

This means one and only one thing, the Germen cars won't dare to be compared against their competing Lexus line up. Shame on AutoBild for this comparison.

Look at their stupid comparison resaults, how come the GS has no mention of comfort and interior size? Was the whole idea of this comparison the trunk size and the price of the car? lol

They should've brought in the GS350, why didn't they do that? because they fear it, even though they would've found 100 reasons to put it last.

Shame, shame on those that put this comparison together, it shows nothing but ignorance and incredible stupidity.

I know they're deisels Germen fan boys, and that still doesn't make it a valid comparison. If this should've consintrated on the fuel consumption only, and its not rocket science the deisel last longer, and yes better than a bybrid, this is a fact and no one can say no to it. But, the comparison payed more attention to the small trunk and high price, well hybrids do cost more and do have batteries that make their trunk smaller. Do I like hybrids, not at all. But all I'm saying the comparison is not valid, its just a way to put down the Lexus. How come the comparison didn't pay much attention about the quality, or reliability? are these things not important anymore?

If the real intention of this comparison was for fuel consumption, then that should've been the only point taken into considration and compared how a hybrid can be better than a deisel sometimes and sometimes not.

Until magazines editors and people in general be more fair, then we'll see some really meaningful test results.

I'm sorry, but in Europe the G450h competes directly with these diesel cars. This is Lexus' diesel alternative.

No, LexusAdmirer, the GS450h is definitely not a "direct competitor" to the conventional German V8 sedans. That would be Lexus's own conventional V8 sedan- the GS430, and upcoming GS460. Is it that hard to understand?

-poor fuel economy outside of urban environment ?
Aber mal ehrlich: Für einen Hybrid-Benziner mit temperamentvollen 340 PS ist das ebenfalls sensationell.
They say the fuel economy is sensational for a 340 HP car.

I like and appreciate Lexus, and I still think it's a fair comparaison from their point vues as comparing gaz alternative's cars. I would still prefer the GS450h though (better performer).
And yes Lexus offers diesel in Europe, and actually AutoBild had another comparaison with the entry level luxury and the result was like this:
1. 2007 BMW 320d
2. 2008 Mercedes C220 CDI
3. 2007 Lexus IS220d
4. 2007 A4 TDi
5. Alfa Romeo

This article is better.
http://autozeitung.de/online/render.php?render=25950

if the gs450 competes with the 550i, e550, and so on, what does gs430, and upcoming gs460 compete with?? didnt make sense to me either, because it doesnt or there wouldnt be a v8 model gs it would a gs350(which has about the same 0-60 as 450) and the gs450

Yes this article is probably more fair. Yet.....the results are basically the same. Germans FTW

but aren't hybrids about efficieny? they should be compared to diesels.

isn't the GS460 the competitor to the german v8 sedans?

i thought the F cars are the performance cars?

please explain.

Interesting to see that the Hybrid is noisier than the diesels!

What this, the hybrid is too noisy!!!

German is not my mother tongue language but it does appear that the hybrid is noisier than the diesel cars at certain speeds;
AUDI BMW LEXUS BENZ
50 km/h 57 dB 57 dB 58 dB 57 dB
100 km/h 65 dB 64 dB 65 dB 63 dB
130 km/h 69 dB 68 dB 67 dB 68 dB

If I am understanding the German incorrectly than please feel free to correct me.

interesting to see that the Hybrid is noisier than the diesels????
They say the car is very silent.

And I like quiet!

Toyotaman, just in case you missed it the Lexus came in dead last.

el34
Irvine,Ca

So many of you brought up how the LS600hL "beat" the S600 in a GERMAN comparison test (when they actually tied), but now, since the Lexus is in last, you're all screaming "BIASED!" Surprise, surprise...

I have to admit that I was surprised with the LS600 review, but I never mentioned that it beat the S600. You're lumping me into that other group of Lexus fanatics. I am not a huge Lexus fan but I grow tired when I see people blindly bashing brands for no reason. I still say that I am not surprised at this GS review considering where it came from. Time and time again, German car reviews have more often than not ranked Lexus cars lower than other countries' reviews.

30g0g, I wasn't really referring to you because I've never seen any of your posts before, but okay...

but lexus has a GS v8 that competes with the germans: the GS460.

and isn't the GS-F that everyone is talking about the performance version.

so what's the hybrid for? environmentally concerned people right?

Yes, enthusiast, and it gets a whopping 20mpg! LOL!

I believe we have discussed this review here long time ago.

All came to the conclusion, the review is bullshxt.

perhaps YOU came to that conclusion.
i'd say it's pretty accurate.

Rice burners are cheaper than German cars for a reason but you can generally negotiate a better discount on a German car as they are a bit overpriced to begin with. As for the cars compared in this article, BMW is the only one to offer an in-line 6 cylinder engine which is in the optimum configuration for balance. I currently drive a leased Audi A6 but am hesitant to buy any new V6 unless it is in the proper 60-degree configuration as opposed to the inherently-out-of balance 90-degree configuration. Six-cylinder engines should be in the I configuration (e.g. BMW) or in the H configuration (e.g. Porsche and Subaru).

you're not going to get an "extra discount" on a BMW versus a Lexus just because the BMW is more expensive in the first place. If Lexus COULD charge what Mercedes and BMW do they would. That's how the market works. You don't think Lexus and Infiniti would love to sell IS's, GS's, G35's and M's for the same prices BMW and Mercedes sell 3's, 5's, and E's? Of course they would. And you're also wrong for a second reason -- a Lexus has over 10% in markup between invoice and MSRP. A BMW has around 7.5%. If you're not seeing a bigger discount percentage when you buy a Lexus versus a BMW then the Lexus dealer is just making more money on you.

Why was "comfort" a minus for the A6? That was its ONLY minus. Doesn't make sense...

Oh, it just hit me- the E and A6 apparently had only average comfort.

Sorry, the 5 and A6.

BMW WON AGAIN :)

Congrats to BMW, Audi and Mercedes for their quality autos.

Lexus should cram more sound deading material under the seats.

A more fair comparison is a GS350. Comfort and luxury is penalized?
Strange indeed.

No, they were commenting on how the 5 Series and A6 WEREN'T quite as comfortable as their competition.

the GS350 isn't positioned as good MPG and better for the environment....hybrids and sophisticated diesels are. that's why they're being compared here.

Hehehe... that's what I've been saying. It just doesn't make sense. Some people like the Lexus- they're automatically a smart car buyer and know everything about cars. However, if the Lexus doesn't do well, that author MUST be an idiot... LOL.

Another thing to remember and that is, a hybrid technology is NOT a deisel competition, its ONLY a new technology that will be further expanded by all car manufacturers in the near future.

So, I hope people can understand that. And sadly if the "professional" magazine editors don't get it, what would you expect from normal people?

i would have to disagree, the diesel, and hybrid have the same basic purpose, they are alternatives to each other. the gs is an alternative to the rest of the cars compared here, someone looking for a luxury sedan in this class but with improved fuel economy over the regular v6/v8 models would be looking at these models including the gs, if this were any other car losing the messages would read see lexus does it again, lexus is better than bmw, and mercedes, but let lexus lose a test and its bias, and everything else, thats comical. the cars offer fuel economy with few compromises, unlike the gs. just like the ls hybrid this cars benefits over the regular models just arent there. the gs makes sense if you are looking for a car with v8 power or 0-60 times, but v6 power. but as an alternative to other "v6" fuel saving cars in its class it falls short...reality

so please explain the great benefits of the GS hybrid.

Ok - people buy the GS450h in Europe because they want fuel economy and performance, which Lexus does not offer otherwise.
People buy these 3.0+ diesels because they want performance and fuel economy.
Catch my drift?
The Lexus is about 0.9 seconds quicker to 62 than the E and the 5, and is also about 10000 dollars more here than a 530d.
Personally I would have compared it with the 535d, which offers similar performance (0.5 seconds slower than GS450h), and better fuel economy than it.
However, the 530d also gets an amazing fuel economy, getting 36 US combined, better than the GS' 28 US combined (which no one gets.). BTW this is using the European economy cycle.
The 530d also emits less CO2 (lower company car tax), costs A LOT less, and gets 46 US mpg on the highway, and 26 US mpg round town.
In my mind, and the mind of most Europeans, the GS competes with these diesel cars. Hybrid cars are marketed as "Lexus' diesel alternative", so that is what in competes with.

all german car fans shurely seem to be taking this opportunity to bash up lexus. Just wait till ISF comes in, then all these notions about lexus not being able to handle will dispel. Anyway lexus are made for refinement and luxury and reliability not driving dynamic like BMW. So in that sense this comparison is unfair because Eclass, 5 series, and A6 are all cars made for european market in mind which demands a lot of performance and handling, whereas lexus is made for the american market that does not need handling, but more so needs reliability, luxury, and prestige, all attributes that can be given to lexus. I am not a german car fans except for BMW. I think the new M3 is jus the most mean and powerful looking car, lexus ISF is nothing compared to the M3, but i don't like mercedes and audi, both too lumpant and heavy.

the ISF has nothing to do with this discussion.
it's being sold as a high-performance, huge V8. it will get terrible MPG.

This is getting so tired... Lexus fans just can never accept a bad review. It's ridiculous. If someone loves the LS600hL, they go crazy and expect us to disagree with the article; that usually doesn't happen (with the smarter German car fans), but when a Lexus doesn't do well, they make excuse after excuse, demanding a metaphorical recount... and they still don't see it in themselves!

I think S4 accepts that is a given fact though that the GS hybrid is an alternative to it's petrol models. And trust me I love the GS to death but I choose an LS because it had some cool technology.

Not all of the German car fans hate Lexus. It's more they hate the fans and how they think. I for one am a car of all brands because I think every brand has at least one model that I like but not necessarily mean I would purchase. I promised myself to never get a Lexus but I ended up getting one. Why? I got a great deal on it. Bang for buck it definitely is worth it. I got my S550 for a great deal too but of course much more than the LS. Both suit my needs for different purposes. LS my daily driver to and from work.

However S4 made me think about something after his comment from another thread. Why have two luxury sedans when I can have one and an SL or something. I thought to myself. Perhaps I should get rid of one of these and get an R8. What do you think about that S4? Sound good?

Agent, I want an R8, myself... we could order two. LOL.

so what's the purpose of the GS-F?

all the GS cars are only alternatives to each other according to you. toyota is smart. they make alternatives to COMPETITORS not THEIR OWN CARS. so which COMPETITOR is the GS450 hybrid an alternative to?

i've driven the car. and it can't handle for shit. the ride is mushy. and the driving position is awkward for anyone over 6'1" (boring consumer reports even pointed this out in their review of the GS).

but sales say it all: lexus has only been able to move 2,000 GSh in the states per year. it's a sales disaster. end of story.

^^Hahaha.

I'd rather be an Audi/Lexus owner than some sad, pathetic fool who dreams of owning a BMW on a website, and bashes cars that are worth twice his income...

i thought the gs was more of a bmw 7 series, audi a8 s-class competitior, however i am amazed that audi doesnt have the price as a + and i cant believe when they wrote its not comfortable

No, the GS has always been A6/5/E... if the GS competed with the bigger sedans, where did you think the LS fit into all this?

Maybe that's why the Lexus fans think the LS is a ultra luxury sedan since they believe the GS is a 7 series/S/A8 competitor haha. Just kidding. The GS in visual aspects I think is more attractive than the LS but I does lack the prestige look. Then again when someone buys a Lexus I don't see them even thinking about prestige. I think of them wanting bang for buck, quality, and a soft cushioned ride and not really thinking much about performance or handling. If they wanted performance cars they would probably love the Audi's, BWM's and Merc's. It's really another niche market that only America has and that's why their doing great in terms of sales.

With the release of these "F" tuned editions of these Lexus I don't think will boost much of its sales. It for sure does not add any bragging rights.

WHY you ask? WHY mess with a good thing? Why add a performance division when many of the returning customers of the higher end Lexus are of mid-age or elderly? The young blood the new generations don't dream of owning a Lexus they dream of owning M's, AMG's, and R/RS models. I mean make the IS-F that's a great idea because the IS is a popular car amongst the tuners but the GS/LS I don't think they need it. They should spend that money on developing the next gen SC instead. But some how their not concerned about that slow selling model.

Hooray for diesel! This is the short term answer and developing hybrid from there will be awesome. Hybrid-gasoline is not the answer. Bring on the diesels to the US!

Annoying...

the GSh is NOT AN M5 ALTERNATIVE. are you nuts? the M5 is a helluva sport sedan. the GSh is a luxo sedan that goes reasonably fast in a sraight line (but does not play in M5 territory). and from a handling perspective, these two cars are worlds apart.

besides, isn't the new GS-F all you guys have been talking about the M5 challenger from lexus? please explain.

and trust me, toyota is very disappointed with sales of the GSh. they were expecting far more than that. in fact, they are disappointed with GS sales overall reaching just over 20,000. nearly 50,000 5-series are sold.

dear huu:

guess what happens when a new model is introduced: sales of the OLD model DROP OFF A CLIFF about three months before the NEW model comes out.

since the NEW 2008 5-series just came out at the beginning of may, sales have been soft of the 2007 for the past three months.

but good effort at trying to distort the picture!

and let's check on the new 5-series 'pace' of sales for may, june and july. it'll look a little scary to you.

Enthusisatx11, when their is an outgoing model year their are plenty of discounts available which help push sales.

JRobUSC mentioned some mark-ups on Lexus vs. BMW cars. It really does not matter if one mark-up is slightly greater than another. The Lexus dealers that I've met are more reluctant to give discounts because they feel that the MSRP on their cars is lower than that of their German competitors. I buy cars only on a cost plus basis so it is net dealer cost that I am concerned with and not the MSRP or the dealer discount. In practice, and generally speaking, if you convert that into a discount off the MSRP, I find that it is easier to find a bigger discount on a German car than a Japanese car even if the German car has a slightly lower mark-up. The best deals were to be had half a century ago in the days when the dealer price was 22% less than list price and the dealer received a 3% holdback on top of that (i.e. total dealer discount of 25% on a domestic vehicle). Dealer discounts have steadily eroded over time due to extreme competitive forces in the industry.

huu76, all excellent observations.

this site is becoming way too fan-boy based, there is no objectivity or reasoning in what most ppl on this site say, and i think it comes from the lexus fans who give out bait for the german fans can bite.

lets look at cars properly

I'm sad. Come on Lexus. Win one German comparison! Your legions of adoring fans demand it!!! If you don't win a German comparison soon, I will never buy a Lexus again! Forget quality, forget badge snobbery, forget luxury, forget a high-output gas-electric hybrid going up against economy diesels. None of that matters!!! Just win a German comparison test, NOW!!!