BMW has it and Lexus wants it!

One 335i M-sport/Blackline rear lights and with manual transmission please!

WAIT, This is pure BS, I've had enough of this!!!

This is becoming as biased as Jeremy Clarkson's British Jag pride stunts!

3 LOGICAL reasons why this was biased:


The BMW would be the one I would take home, but this WAS NOT A FAIR comparison!!!

1.This comparison was purely about car dynamics, which is fine, but the lexus wasn't even equipped w/ the Sport package! Why?

(if you look at the numbers u'll see that lexus was only slightly behind in grip w/ non-preformance tires, what would have happened if it had them, along w/ lowered ride height and stiffer sport suspension)


2.Also, in the features segement they only used features that would improve dynamics, nothing else. The features category is one that we know bmw would no be able to compete in. (Cooled seats, touch screen nav, playing dvds in park,sound system, back up camera, BOTH front and rear PDC, std keyless entery and start)


3. As having had both an 04 4.4i X5 and an 06 GS300 I can understand the differences.

The bmw was such an inspiring drive. Every time i took on twistys and back roads it felt amazing. Pure engineering! But on everyday basis I was left wanting more, disappointed by the useless navigation interface/input/lack of abilities. The sound system was horrible (I had the upgraded one w/ the DSP) Having the CD player get deleted when u order the NAVI was unbelievable. I had to pay 695 extra to get a TRUNK 6 CD player, how sad on a 60K vehicle. Also the ride w/ the 19' sports was maddening, especially in NYC.

This all made me want to leave bmw, at least for the moment, while they got their act together. I am enjoying the GS but I still don't feel anywhere near the driving excitement that I would w/ the bmw. I thnk techno stuff in the bimmers is imporving but still way behind.


We can't just praise ride dynamics, we must insist from bmw to truely build the ultimate machine period. Otherwise using the same logic in the comparison, i.e. purely driving dynamics, i don't think a 335i would be able to beat an evo 9.

This comparison is not just biased, but a true idiotic comparison. Many reasons are mentioned here but one more is this simple one.

You can put a turbo into 4 cylinder car and it will kick the V6 engine's ass. So why in the hell compare a turbo engine against a normal one? and yet waste the time to do all these tests?

That shows only one thing, and that is BMW truly cannot match Lexus's power unless it slams all possible ways to get all the power our of its engine.

This is really more an embarasement comparison to BMW than being concidered a win.

Well said someguy! I agree with just about everything you said.

with all the recalls that BMw has had with the 335 why would Lexus want a car like that?

wow how did BMW invent a 2002 Audi S4? They are so good.

"The twin-turbo 300-hp N54 inline-6 has already earned industry awards, not to mention the affection of driving enthusiasts."

Absolutely true.

"The shift paddles for the IS 350 work well, but the quick-shifting convenience of the BMW system places it a generation ahead."

I don't care, I only want a manual in those cars..

"The Mark Levinson audio system is still the benchmark in car audio, and it gives Lexus a unique spot in the sport sedan market."

I only had an experience with the LS460's ML sound system and it was indeed one of the best I've EVER heard. If you want similar audio quality in most German cars, you are going to have to (a lot) extra. For example I didn't think the stock audio system in the CL was THAT good, so I ordered the full monty.
But, again, congrats to Lexus here.

Sexless Lexus!

No stick in the Lexus, auto only!

LexusAdmirer, no it wouldn't have, it still wouldn't have handled as well as the 335i, the ride would have suffered even more, and the as tested price would have been $5k more expensive than the 335i instead of $1500 more. Sorry chuckles, but as great as the IS350 is now, and I believe it's a great car, those don't add up to a Lexus win.

Sport Packages are hard to come by for the IS (atleast in my area). And it doesnt improve overall handling, it just lowers the ride height.

The Lexus got tromped, sorry guys. Can you even think of a comparo where a Lexus beat a BMW in handling? You are grasping at straws here...

LexusAdmirer, if the north east had sport packages coming it way i would. But considering its nearly a 3-5 month wait to find one, no i havent driven one.

I think that the only thing that leaves me wanting on the IS (which I find very attractive, by the way) are the slab-ish sides. They could've put on surfacing, maybe even a slight trim strip... SOMETHING.

But I give two thumbs-up for Lexus's effort on that one, and I do agree with the article.

lexus and bmw are one of my favorite two company. if bmw wins its like what else is new they are great with the 3 series for so long. but if lexus wins that is great news too. both brand are very nice. but in reality i would love to own any car from either brand. cars today are so advance they are all good.

Thank you!

I am in the market for a new sports sedan and looked at both of these models. I decided against the 335i relatively early on, after reading scores of overheating and faulty fuel pumps complaints on BMW fan forums. I thought that if I got a 335i and it had problems, I'd really feel like an idiot, having known enough to see it coming.

Just to be sure, though, I rented/borrowed each car for a day. The BMW's cabin felt 10 years older (touch screen vs. idrive) when it came to tech and much cheaper when it came to the quality of appointments, but the 335i looked nicer from the outside.

In terms of driving, the BMW has a more mechanical feel to it. The lexus feels electronic--the power delivery and steering feel video-gamish, but not in a bad way. The BMW does not come close to the lexus when it comes to the immediate, even delivery of power. On the other hand, the BMW driving experience is more organic, especially in the corners.

I couldn't pull the trigger on the lexus, however, with the is-f and M3 sedan on tap. For now, I am going to wait and see what the M3 and IS-F deliver.

If neither looks to be worth the extra dough, I will get the is 350. BMW's reliability issues mean that I won't have to make the otherwise tough choice between these two excellent offerings.

Your reliability concerns are petty.

Of course people with issues will seek out a BMW forum, but what about the majority of owners with no issues? You won't see them complaining on the Internet.

The 335i is a thoroughly modern, well-engineered car, it won't have any major problems. Teething issues do come with new engines, but I feel that you didn't really like the BMW in the first place. Otherwise such petty issues wouldn't be a problem.

I have had a 335i Coupe since its release in November and I flog the car every day. I have also had a Vishn tuning kit for almost 2 months, and I continue to beat it up. Never have I had any issues at all. Your concerns are petty. Not to mention that this car has full maintence for 3 years! Come on man. Also, you like the "video game" feel? That's even better than "magic feel"! If you like that stay away from the M3, I promise you it will not feel like a video game. It will however be and feel like your in a REAL serious machine.

How is it petty to want to drive a car that won't break down as often as its nearest competitor? I don't think you would go here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198018 and tell all the 335i owners that they are petty to want to drive the car they bought, and not a loaner.
Many have been without their brand new car for over a month!
I dunno. The fact that BMW fanboys feel that they must concede reliability (and ridicule those who value it) makes me think I should steer away from BMWs. I know too many ex-BMW owners (ie owners--as opposed to those who lease for three years and then move onto a new car) who say that they would never buy another BMW.
Again, I have no loyalty to either brand. Just trying to find a four door that is enjoyable enough to drive that I won't have to splurge on a separate sports car.

Yeah, and all that with factory-backing!

People have though about turboing the IS350 motor. Already some have swapped it for a 2JZ Supra motor. The problem with the IS and turbo is the compression ratio, which is pretty high (11.8:1). All forums i've read, about turboing it is fear of blowing the motor.

What an insightful and non-biased post!



NOT

0-60 in 4.2 seconds? You gotta be kidding me.

"Toyotaman" you're probably just another Lexus troll but I can't resist commenting on you're totally ridiculous comment.

First off there is no way in hell an IS 350 can clock 4.2sec to 60MPH, but just for the sake of argument, where is you're proof of this remarkable feat?

Secondly we all know the 3-series has the superior "dynamic driving qualities" of the two cars, who are you kidding!

Read the articles title again..."BMW has it & Lexus wants it!" Not the other way around.

its had to play defense against total bs. Facts please

Great read. I like both IS and 335. But if you could afford it, like the article suggested, 335 is definitely the best of its class. In terms of BMW's unreliability, I scratch my head whenever someone use it to make a point, for I've owned two 3 series (
330 and 335) and neither has any problems except for regular maintenance. Take my E class for example, while I had many problems with my E class, others didn't. Further, I believe many of you might have frequented BMW forums and read G35 bashing threads such as its unreliability, mine is problem free just as my BMW. So I would say reliability is a draw of luck nowadays.

I agree with all that you said on reliability- if you treat the car right, it will be good to you in return. I do play with the S4, but I've had no problems.

I do have to correct you on something, though...

"But if you could afford it, like the article suggested, 335 is definitely the best of its class."

Haha. It does mention in the article that the IS350 is more money than the 335i they tested...

I stand corrected. Better yet, this makes a 335 the best bang for the buck of its class. The bottom line is that BMW is a company with originality, not a company of imitations. Aren't LEXXX, INXXXXXX, MERXXXXX, and AUXX tired of chasing the ghost of BMW?

i'm with you...haven't had any problems with mine either. oh...a cupholder did come dislodged once. tragedy!

i'm with you...haven't had any problems with mine either. oh...a cupholder did come dislodged once. tragedy!

I don't get it. Lexus should quit trying to out-gun BMW. They will never drive like a BMW. The could give the IS 500hp and it still wouldn't be half the driver's car that the 335i is, because it's....well...a Lexus.

I don't even see these cars in the same category, competition wise. I would compare IS with the Acura TSX and the Infiniti G35. I thought the current IS was supposed to be the "3-series" killer. Guess we'll just have to wait for the next IS to come along when all Lex fans will chant the demise of the 3-series, huh?

Lexus, just stick to making highly reliable and refined luxury vehicles that get you from point A to point B (parallel parking your car for you when you get there, because you aren't very good at it or you are just lazy). It's what you do best.

I agree. This whole pseudo-emotion in design L-finesse campaign is a bit too much wanna be and feels fake.

I'm not sure if "pseudo-emotion in design L-finesse campaign is a bit too much wanna be"... because, since everyone's trying to attempt things differently.

L-finesse is just that without resorting to what the other Germans are doing.

the 15 year old BMW is better than the 15 year old lexus-toyota. i love toyota but we have to remember our roots and it came from 100% toyota. today it still shares some parts with toyota. my friend works on toyota and lexus cars so he would know.

"OK, go back to almost any car reliability survey and the Lexus will almost always be a better bet than a BMW of the same year."

Yes, of course. We all know Lexus has better reliability.

But that's not the point right now.

What e34 is trying to say is that a Lexus does not hold up as well as a German car. For example, we had a '00 A6 2.7T and a '98 RX300 for five years each. The A6 was in near-perfect condition when the lease ran out, as the leather was pristine, the quality of the materials was impressive and the engine was running as well as they day I got it. On the other hand, when we sold the RX300, the leather was not in good condition at all (very "wrinkly," if you know what I mean) and the engine just didn't run quite as well as it once did.

It's always possible that my wife ran the Lexus very hard when I wasn't looking (she's NOT a fast driver), but I doubt it. She treats her cars just as well as I do.

And please, don't try to pass yourself as a non-Lexus lover, 43LE. You are... clearly. I've never seen you write one pro-German post or anti-Lexus post.

Lexus = Toyota
la la la la
Bring it on rice-lovers!
Personally i love my bratwhurst, none of that tofu gunk!

i don't see how you says german = american. i think lexus is more american than a german automobile is. toyota created a luxury division lexus to sell here. the europe motor companys just had cars here that looked the same but was never rebadge something else.

a mercedes was never rebadge as anything, a bmw was never either, a audi was never a rebadge vw. but lexus was example toyota aristo and toyota altezza two prime example. now only way for lexus to ever get away that image is to seperate almost 100%. that they have done now but no matter how big lexus get here in united states it will be a tough task to take on the rest of the world market of cars. i love lexus to death and i love driving them but i have come to senses that it is very hard to change what people have been thinking for decades and decades prior to the introduction of the toyota luxury brand. the mercedes benz symbolizes supreme luxury, the bimmer symbolizes sporty luxury, and audi symbolizes the not so cocky and ignorant buyer who still wants a good luxury car but in a way such that it is understated. lexus symbolizes as good luxury car with good quality and some neat technology and the cheaper pricing compare to european luxury. but i think because lexus was never the most expensive when they started they can only raise prices so high or else people may turn toward the european cars.

if i spend anything more than 140-150,000 i may be have interest in european cars. anything under i will still have interest in a lexus.i am a non biase die-hard lexus fan and i know where lexus excels and where lexus does not. i also know where to draw a line when price get steep for a traditional high end lexus.

to lexus fans hate me love me whatever. i am new to this board but i think my comment should be respected by all fans because to say lexus is the best luxury company in the world that will be a false comment. to say they are the best performance company in the world that would be even more false comment.

I think the reason for Lexus' initial success was that it offered Americans American cars, with V8s and RWD, unlike the FWD V6 craze that was gripping Ford and GM.

What a shock, Edmunds picks the 3 series again in a head to head review. I stopped taking them seriously after they still chose the 3 despite the fact it overheated when evaluated against the Infiniti G.

Sorry, the above comment should read that I stopped taking comparison tests
seriously after a 3 series was chosen by a reviewer,not meaning Edmunds.

it's not the same voice. lexus has exclusivity on that guy.

"the audi/ volvo a toss up for fourth, and the audi sixth."

Interesting. Quite. As if you had any credibilty left...

I have to chose the 335i, Lexus doesn't offer the IS350 in Europe!
But I want a coupe anyway, not a saloon, so 335i it is, or S5...

BMW has it but i don't want it, i rather have a IS350 or a G35 sport.

ha... so much for a ultimate driving machine

A 335i equipped with sport package and high performance low profile tires merely out-handled an IS350 with luxury package.


60 - 0 (ft): 116 vs. 114 (IS350)
Slalom (mph): 68.2 vs. 66.8
Skid Pad (g-force): 0.9 vs. 0.87

No wonder Edmunds IL said 335i got killed by G37.

i really wish all these lexus people would stop wining its pitiful..stop. if the 330i with only 255hp was picked over the is350 with 300+hp not just by edmunds but by other mags as well why wouldnt the improved 335i beat the is350. its like babies wining over why they cant have what they want. thats logic. OF COURSE BMW IS BETTER AT BEING BMW THAN LEXUS IS, the lexus is has never been a drivers car any mag can attest to that its a small "sporty" lexus that for all its worth tries its best to be the 3 series and it just cant it takes more than alot of horsepower to beat a benchmark, or be a performance sedan for that matter. in my opinion the g35/g37 are alot better 3 series alternatives as they are alot cheaper and the handling dynamics are there, and a lexus is that costs more than a bmw 335i is crazy, but than again the consumers (sales dont lie) has been saying for years who makes the better bmw , and of course BMW DOES! and mags have been saying for years who is the benchmark and its the 3 series, there would be no is without the 3 series..better luck trying to be BMW next time toyota

FanBoy, but it lost....sorry bro

they'll never understand. it's a choice: luxury (lexus) or performance (BMW). which do you value most?

"Sounds more like a tie to me."

Edmunds said, "The BMW 335i is still the best sport sedan money can buy, and you can quote us on that."

Are we in denial, or what?

This is a common misconception. I love both of these cars and would take either, were I looking, but to think that the 3 is harsh as an everyday driver is pretty ignorant. The entire reason it has become so famous and desirable is because of its amazing ride/handling balance- it can take you and your wife out to a black-tie dinner in comfort, or it can take you and your dog out to a winding road on a sunny Saturday morning. It's akin to the Porsche 911 of sedans- the everyday sports car.

I believe it is most ignorant to believe that a BMW 3-Series rides smoother than anything from Lexus.

Why was I de-boosted for that comment, and what's with Will's nasty response? Did I once say it rode better than the IS? Re-read my post.

In Europe we have roads with bends in them! Sometimes lots of bends!

We love bends!

Tell me something new here. BMW is the king of the hill when it comes to sportsedans. In EVERY class.

"That being said, the new IS 350 does not have that IS 300 feel."

Make that line a bit larger, please, because it turns the rest of your comment to $hit. Sorry.

The previous IS was an even bigger copy of the 3-series than the current one.

Let's compare, shall we
1998 Lexus IS (Toyota Altezza)
2 litre straight-six engine
155 horses

1998 BMW 320i
2 litre straight-six
150 horses

The BMW drove better, was faster (especially comparing the automatics) and more economical.

But the real deal is underneath whereas the IS had a very -ahum- 'similar' chassis design and front suspension setup, that's why it drove pretty good.

The IS350 appeals to a different target audience, despite Lexus' hopes. The BMW 335i turbo and all is a pure performance machine, unapologetic. The Lexus attempts to be a polite and smooth automobile, but unfortunately, that does not bode well for those that want a stick shift super fun car on rails.

If Lexus wants to compete with BMW, it must focus on who it wants to please. Attempting to build a car that pleases the Beverly Hills shopping crowd is not going to please the stick shift gear heads who enjoy reading the latest sports car magazines.

*not shocked by 1995e34's remarks at all*

You just can't grasp the idea of a great driver's car- that's how blinding your bias is. You seem to think that there's some huge conspiracy among car magazines and websites, just against Lexus. Or for BMW, or both.

Well, you're wrong.

BMW has put decades of effort into this car. They've improved it, generation to generation, and even strive to improve the 3 Series within each generation. It's become the poster child of what a sports sedan is, but BMW has never rested on their laurels. They've perfected the ride/handling combination, and somehow, seem to make it even more perfect with each new 3 Series model. It wins these comparison tests for a reason: it deserves to. Your ignorance is frustrating, because it obviously hasn't come to you that a carmaker can't simply topple the 3 in one fell swoop. If Audi, Lexus or Mercedes ever beat the 3 Series, it will take a very, very long time for them to do so.

huu would know nothing about handling or good driving cars (or good cars really), since he owns a Jeep GC.

It makes me sick to my stomach Toyota can't come up with an original idea!

Copy, copy, copy!!!

Japan doesn't even make movies and they have not one single famous music artist.

I definitely laughed at that comment.. brilliant!

Well, it did appear to me that you were going back to the past in that comment. As long as you admit that the IS350 isn't quite as dynamically capable, I'm okay.

...

LOL! TOYOTA altezza outperforms beemers!

just like the TOYOTA supra outperformed corvettes!

and on quality of build and reliability, TOYOTAs outperform everybody, euro as well as american brands.

so what is LEXUS for?

simply to add a little more prestige to what is ALREADY the highest quality cars on the planet.

"simply to add a little more prestige to what is ALREADY the highest quality cars on the planet."

Do I hear the OPINION bell ringing?

Let's see... why don't you conduct your own survey and see who's on top? If I remember, Toyota was "only" #4 in the latest CR survey. I think Honda has been most consistent with their commitment to reliability- it's a good selling point on Toyotas, but we have had a few (minor) problems with our Lexi and not a single one with my son's Civic.

and even if these claims were true, there's something missing...the 3-series still far outsells everyone else in the class. sales speak volumes.

Heheh.

K, let's review our latest list of cars that we're going to drive for my wife's next ride:

• Audi A8 ($88,000 with options)

• BMW 750i ($86,000 with options)

• Jaguar XF (TBA)

• Lexus LS460 SWB ($73,000 with options, loaded)

• Mercedes-Benz S550 4Matic ($98,000 with options)

As you can see, the BMW is far from the most expensive on this list. The Audi is more money, and I could easily afford the 750Li, but I feel safer with her in a SWB car. All prices are rounded to the nearest thousand. I will write an article when we attain the car, anywhere from Jaunary to summer of next year (she might wait for the Jaguar XF to come out).

Not for her! If I wanted a sedan, the Q would be on there. But she wants a more luxurious sedan.

And FanBoy, I already responded to it.

"SoCal" I've said it many times before, the IS350 is dynamically outperformed by a 750i never mind a 335i. I can only presume that you don’t know what to really look for in a cars dynamics as you feel the Lexus’s uncommunicative steering is more fun than that of the 3-series, & yes I’ve driven both a 330i & IS250.

That's not to say the IS350 doesn't perform well, it's just that BMW is so much better at building performance oriented vehicles, that their full-size luxo barge out-handles Lexus's compact sport sedan.

My proof of this fact can be found within Road & Tracks archive of slalom times, so don't say I'm talking out my ass, I’m just calling it how I see it. BMW will also prove this to you first hand if you join their driving school, they always bring a 750i purposely to the track to show off its amazing capabilities.

The tried and true, fundamental flame war topic. What is there left to say? BMW excels in driving dynamics, lexus excels in comfort.

You know that never solves anything. There can never be peace- always a fight on this website.

Well, this comment is for you: shove it.

He's actually 24.

SoCaL, there are three of them: amazinBimmer, formula1 and bmwdrvr. No need to give them the satisfaction of your aggravation.

Listen kid, how old were you when Lexus came out? You were still learning to speak nevermind commenting on Lexus's future.

If you've read any of my comments, you'd know I'm pretty balanced when it comes to this flame war stuff, I even admit Lexus makes a better more pratical luxury car than BMW. Where Lexus looses major points with me is in their non-sporting driving dynamics & thier resemblance to Toyota's.

I only started liking Lexus recently because up untill now, Lexus's have been understyled boring cars to look at & drive. The current IS is the best thing to ever come from Lexus, the fastest & best looking vehicle they've ever put into production...that doesn't say to much driving wise, but styling wise sure it looks great.

BTW about those slalom times which determin a cars handling capabilities, pick up an issue of Road & Track, flip to their road test summary & you will find you're proof regarding the 750i & IS350.

MunichRob is not a biased "hater" at all. I suggest you read some of his other comments.

lexus i agree has done many thing since its intro but i think if lexus was lexus without toyota in the beginning they would not have been so successful.

if lexus is starting out as a fresh company with no parent company how on earth is people going to trust the brand to begin with. no matter what marketing they have not many will buy one. it is because toyota has heritage from back then the name and image was brought on to lexus and from there they added luxury styling and parts so people recognize it as something good.

i personally dont think german should take any credit for the success of lexus here. lexus took over the luxury segment here in the united states basically raping cadillac, chrysler, lincoln, and those brands with a new exclusive brand just for us. with that people new toyota was economical brand but not known them as a luxury brand. then people realize they are much lower costing than a mercedes so people like that idea too. with advertising like pursuit of perfection and the lower cost of course people will love it.

if they capture all the people who want luxury but looking at domestic luxury then that already is the key to success.

i think the german luxury have always been exclusive no matter what. i saw many consumer at car shows and they say lexus is perfection but mainly in the mind of american. anything better than a cadillac is great. i read in some topic that lexus is eco luxury brand. so what if they are eco luxury brand? i know no big time celeb own a lexus but all own bimmer and benz but it does not mean its not good car.

"SoCal" cars today are so advanced that the margin between the greatness of one company & their product is pretty miniscule.

Even you admit that Lexus still doesn't beat the likes of BMW or Audi when it comes to sheer driving pleasure, & I'm sure it will continue to be like that in the future, Lexus will come close once again, but never topple. I could be wrong you never know, but history has a way of repeating itself.

BMW, Audi, & Mercedes never had a major financial backer like Lexus had & has Toyota. They, unlike Lexus, came from nothing. It's like a rags to riches story with the German 3, & a spoiled kid with a trust fund for Lexus. The history of these companies is so vastly different you can't even compare the two.

what is funny that the 3 series was never the horsepower leader in this segment yet it was still the benchmark. i wonder if that light up a lightbulb for any of you. the previous generation 3 series bottom ranging from under 200hp and up to 240hp with the 330. at that time they still had the acura cl and infiniti g that still hold more power than the bimmer.

i think this is the truth behind cars. power is nice to have but when the overall driving is not good it ruin the experience. sometime too much power for a car that is not made to balance it right that is a failure too. bmw has always been supreme in the weight to power ratio and the weight distribution thru out the whole car.

i think also all these car review means nothing. every driver test the car differently and that may cause the milli second difference between cars. jst because edmund and car and driver have been on board for so long people trust it but i dont think we should make a solid view on them just because they say so. we should know so ourself but only way to do is to buy one. but then reaction time with throttle may vary from different cars too.

actually, that should show you the light.

driving is not merely about power and going fast in a straight line. it's more about handling, a high-revving engine that has a great note, a feeling of tremendous confidence in the steering and brakes. the best things simply can't be quantified....

How do you know what options I would get? Would you like me to post the pages I used to get those prices? Because you're really not worth the effort.

i have it, bmw & lexus want it! my money!

Lexus has it and BMW wants it, that right you read it right. Lexus has very reliable engine that BMW wish they have.

And the interior of the Lexus is just pure luxury definitely something BMW want to put their hands on for sure. After all, isn't BMW a luxury brand? if it is, which it is, then they need to improve their interior design for sure.

When you compare the interior of the BMW to MB, Audi, Lexus and Acura, BMW interior is just plain cheap and ugly.