German cars take top spot in 7 of 8 classes in reliablity statistics

It's never been a secret that European cars have better reliability statistics in their home countries than in the rest of the world. Maybe European workers just take more pride in assembling automobiles?

German workers take pride in their work but I'm not so sure about all the workers that were imported from less developed countries. Hopefully the German work ethic has rubbed off on them. Maybe the reason for Mercedes' qualitiy woes in recent years was due to the slow transfer of the traditional German work ethic to some elements of the foreign work force.

Well, everyone I'll go ahead and spoil the turmoil: they didn't even bother to test a Lexus vehicle...

So they didn't "test" them? Oh, so this is based off of a survey of people who actually own those cars then?

And no need to get touchy! I know Lexus sells very few cars in Europe, I knew you or some other goon would clear that up though, lol.

I think the fact that only European cars (alongside a Japanese one that Europeans just love to death) topped this study done in Europe automatically instills a bias. Let's see the Germans pull this off in any other region of the world...

That implies a bias to me. American cars are "too crappy" and Lexus "isn't cool enough."

I'm not saying the cars, or the people are "biased" in the infamous sense of the word here, I'm just saying since the study is based in Europe there is automatically a bias towards their makes.

What do you want from me? I don't doubt that those cars are reliable. Good job Germany for making cars that don't leave your European customers stranded on the side of the road! ;)

"What do you want from me? I don't doubt that those cars are reliable."

Will, you were the one who started this argument, and you also have been fighting what Sailor has been saying. How in the hell is this biased? Why is it that if a Lexus doesn't win, it's BIASED?!

I didn't start any argument, but I'd expect you to place all blame on me here.

TheSailor's the one who went off the wall with his responses.

Judging from the girth of your comments I'd say you're pretty happy he did bring up Lexus. Haven't you learned the art of Will's sarcasm yet anyway? Not all of it requires a response...

Yes, this corner is quite nice.

Will just starts flame wars. He doesn't get involved in them.
All he wants is to get Lexus into the topic!

Pass some of that stuff you've been smokin homie. Lets be honest with ourselves and state the facts. Japanese cars have less problems compared to european cars. Consumer reports noted a 1998 Lexus LS had less problems than a 2006 E Class Benz. CS is not gospel but lets be honest. BMW has to literally throw in a 4yr Maint. plan just to get people to buy 'em.

I'm not biased, just realistic. This forum keeps having the same stupid discussion over and over again.

terrible maintenence/care = terrible and a unreliable car.

these days cars are getting the same reliability.

Also, someone (Sailor) explain why there's not a rating for the specific year of 2006 for the Audi A2? Looking at the data table, there's nothing even under '2006' for the Audi A2. The Mazda doesn't have specific ratings from 2004, 2005, or 2006!

Are these results an average corresponding to model year or not?

Will, this obviously doesn't only include new cars, like American tests.

I can confirm this. The Audi A2 is a very reliable car. My Audi dealer gave it to me as a replacement car for when the A8 was is the shop maintance.

He claimed that it is the most reliable small Audi ever made.

anyways, sailor why are you moving to Singapore?

ohh you are pretty much my dad in the 70's and 80's (cause he was a merchant sailor. but went to different places minus singapore and la.

That must be a very exciting job. You see alot of places and alot of people.

where did you first start? my dad went to yangon (cause hes from there)

BTW: Mazda Premacy= US Mazda 3 (Mazda was awarded w/ the best quality in Germany btw)

They may be based off of each other, but the Mazda 3 is actually a fun-to-drive, sporty hatchback and sedan with good styling for a car its size here in the States.

my bad mazda 5 = mazda premacy in Europe. I was totally asleep.

You just sound like a broken record to me, GS300: "blah, blah, blah... unreliable... GERMAN... broken down, blah, blah blah..."

But really? Have you owned a German car that is newer than 1986? Because not once have any of my German cars broken down, nor have they had electronic failures- not even small inconveniences. The worst thing I can think of is the headlight washer cap coming off at high speeds on my 2000 A6 2.7T. That's not really a reliability issue, though- it's because whoever put on those headlight washer caps didn't do a good job.

Judging by the experiences I've had with these cars, it's less about how "reliable" a car is, because that can't really be measured. It's about how you maintain it. It's been the same with our Lexii- the worst thing that happened was the speedometer freezing in our '98 RX300. It's because we take car of our cars. In fact, I've had a much better experience with our four Audi models than I did have with two Acuras.

What is "perogative"? If you mean prerogative, then thank you for clearing that up...I wasn’t sure if people had the right to choose their car. Also, I'm not sure of "everyone" knowing that German cars are unreliable. Last time I checked, (c.a. 20th, 21st century) German engineering as a whole was the most reliable and admirable. German cars have always been the best example of German engineering, and the companies that build these cars have been emulated by every other car manufacturer (esp. Toyota). I think you have to look at the big picture, 06GS300: The Japanese have indeed mastered the technique of copying - to the point where they now build a good car. If it is too difficult for you to see that your GS300 is merely an imposter (although a good one), then perhaps you should look at the values of your carmaker, and their origins: Luxury mixed with performance, safety and design, technological innovation - all of these come from one place: THE GERMAN AUTOMAKERS

Although my choice for car is German not because of they are better i just like the class the cars have going down the road. But i must say when we sold a used Luxus,Acura or Infiniti we rarely had to worry the cutomer would come back and call it a lemon.
The Euro cars are a different story, buyers of them pretty much knew that they may have some problem down the road they were much more ready to ask if the German cars are still under factory warranty then the Japanese cars.
To be fair though, any car passed 60k could be suspect and Lexus and Infiniti are just as expensive to repair, for the most part in the luxury end of the business people want what they want even if they may have problems, the status thing is big for them.

Nobody in America are buying this bull shit you GERMAN FANS.We all knew that the GERMAN cars are rank the last of the list every year consumer report in America.THe Newspaper show it, the News show it.even a 5 years old knew about it period

Wow you insightfulness has really contributed to this site, you should have a medal.
What about The A8 and S class coming top in the JD power initial quality survey this year? Or Mercedes coming top in 3 categories?
Your ridiculous bias is, well, ridiculous.

No, Rupert, WE'RE obviously the biased ones. Lexus is the best at everything, remember? And if a German car wins, it's just not true. Impossible!

He said NOTHING about Lexus. You are a hypocritical INSTIGATOR S4Cab...

Initial Quality sure, I expect the S Class to be on top. But check back with them in 30K miles, if they even still own the car.

Well I don't see Toyota up there either...

Why aren't any German fans trying to discredit the source? Oh wait, 'cause their cars did well...

Congrats fanoz, you 've done unbelievably well in reliability.

small cars
Total results
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15138&admin=1

engine crap
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15140&admin=1

suspension, brakes, steering wheel crap
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15141&admin=1

electric/safety equipment crap Beware of electric shock...Also keep singing "You light my <<dashboard>> fire"
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15142&admin=1

Car-shop Lovers...
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15143&admin=1

C
-

Total results
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15139&admin=1

engine crap
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15144&admin=1

suspension, brakes, steering wheel crap
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15145&admin=1

electric/safety equipment crap Beware of electric shock... Also keep singing "You light my <<dashboard>> fire"
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15146&admin=1

Chassis crap
http://www.autotriti.gr/autotriti/_magazine/viewthema_autotriti_admin.asp?id_thema=34732&link_id=15147&admin=1

"Statistics don't lie..."

What!?!

I guess the book "How to Lie with Statistics" is full of it. Benjamin Disraeli too, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." [via Mark Twain]

It is exceptionally easy to lie with statistics. One of the most important realizations is that whenever you use the mean you are assuming in most cases a Normal distribution. Let's assume that you take all the cases for car life of a certain car in terms of time and plot them and it generates a log-normal distribution [which is probably the case with the real data- such is very common in nature] and the average [arithmetic mean] is some number. Here is the caveat- if you go buy that car your car probably won't reach the mean. The place that your car will most likely fail is the Mode: before the mean and before the Median as well.

Now, there are certain instances where the Median is used for permeability in single value flow equations, but this is has to do with the geometric configuration of the permeability heterogeneities given laminated permeable strata. But that situation is different in what the distribution actually represents.

"Why aren't any German fans trying to discredit the source? Oh wait, 'cause their cars did well..."

Real true, Will. Especially when your camp does the EXACT SAME THING. It's human nature, can you accept that?

When Toyota/Lexus win reliability awards, the source is "OBVIOUSLY" un-biased and 100% truthful. But now, when these German cars come out on top, you're trying to come up with excuses for why Lexus didn't win and why this survey is biased! If not you, your Lexus friends! Take a peek!

"Well, everyone I'll go ahead and spoil the turmoil: they didn't even bother to test a Lexus vehicle..."

WHAT??? This isn't a test or enquete!

You are not making any sense!

Don't mess with German cars, they have pedigree, Japanese cars only started copying in the early 60's fullstop

I wouldn't touch a German car with a 10 foot pole. Can't polish a turd.

I've tried being nice. That doesn't work.
I've tried being honest. That doesn't work.
I've tried being sarcastic. That works, but then my allies start hating me...

Looks like I'm just going to have to be mean.
German cars suck, and are in no way superior than even Chinese cars.

End.

Here is the cool thing: you don't just use one study/survey to form an opinion on vehicle reliablity. You take a study like this, research data from Consumer Reports, and owner reviews from places like Edmunds.com and come to a logical conclusion.

If you do that, you see that Japanese cars have faired better than most in terms of both short term and long term reliability, AND German car companies are generally doing better than ever with their reliability.

There are too many variables for one study to be the foundation for anything.

People shouldn't get pissed because one study shows one thing, or one review has a .01 second faster 0-60 time.

Relax.

A "breakdown" of the mental variety was something that a moron named formula1diot had happened to him in his formative years.

The only thing of this imbecle that breaks down these days is his donkey-drawn carriage, which he fixes with his crooked donkey-$hit stained teeth.

"People shouldn't get pissed because one study shows one thing, or one review has a .01 second faster 0-60 time."

RELAX!

Best thing i've read in this forum to date. Everyone has had a different experience and there will always be one person who had a flawless experience with the "statistically" most unreliable car. The truth is that in the states, Toyota/Lexus is seen as having great reliability. Mercedes/BMW have a less positive reputation when it comes to reliability due to their shaky past. This aside, I think that most of these car companies are taking great strides (see GM) to improve their reliability and in the end, it is the consumers that benefit from this progression. I say it is a welcome contribution to see so many reliable German cars, but my viewpoint may be skewed because unlike the rest of you, I don't work at BMW/Mercedes/Lexus/GM..etc

I have never heard of German cars lasting that long without tons of matinence and repairs. German cars are simply built too complicated and parts are expensive and hard to find. On the other hand, my friends dad has a Toyota Avalon with 380,000 miles on it and the only non - matinence issue he had was replacing the power steering system.

My first car was a 92 Toyota Camry that was salvaged and welded back together in 12 places. The damn thing wouldn't die after 220,000 miles on the clock. I still sold it for $800. My dads 04 LX470 has 120,000 on the clock and still looks brand new and never had a problem. I know Bimmers are damn reliable, one of my friends had a 525 for like 200,000 miles. But Audi's are simply disasters...

Hey sailor-kid...my gas car have known to go over 9.9 Trillion Miles before I have to change the oil and filter. In the USA...german makes crappie automobiles. I cannot believe a few people still buying them every year.

"Where I started? I'm not sure I follow you here... Where I went to school? In a little town in Denmark called Svendborg (www.simac.dk)... You don't just go to a ship and get a job today... No matter what your function, you have to get some kind of education before you are even allowed onboard a merchant marine ship. So I was hired by A.P. Møller - Mærsk (a danish ship owner and the worlds largest container ship operator) and went to school in Svendborg for a coulpe of years. I then embarked my first ship in Algeciras in Spain...
But I am not one of the "old school" sailors who was either a marine engineer or a navigator... I'm both, which means I get more money! :D What company did your father sail for?"
cant reply to my own comment, autospies is screwd up.

after my dad graduated from mechanical engineering in his country, he was recommended to take training for the Burmah shipping and trading company (thts what i thought it was called) so he can evalute shipping engineering to take his studies further as well as being a merchant sailor. then he visited bangkok (his first stop) ventured with other shipping companies (never told me about them though but it had the word "maersk", giving me a sense of what it was like) bringing him into s. africa, france and britain as well as the panama canal, central america and LA. when he reached the port of baltimore, he depatured there to continue his education at johns hopkins.

Hahaha when Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW have top honours for reliability you know the stats are skewed!

Germans wouldn't know "reliability" if it bit them in the ass.

Give me a break!

BIAS is huge. Europe prefers european cars and Japan prefers Japanese cars so no surprise there. I would question European based reliability reports, this goes for Japan. Reliability is relative. German automakers ar infamous for over engineering and the vehicle as a whole will run well but little glitches will appear. Does it make the car unreliable? Depends on the persons/owners perspective.

Interesting since Porsche is the top brand in J. D. Power and the Cayman is the top car in the US. And there is no mention of Porsche whatsoever.

If we are embarassed to call for service, then Jeep owners are embarassed to be seen driving their cars.

that's funny because any car sites you search are mostly populated by german cars... at least in greece.. examples: http://www.autodealer.gr http://www.car.gr

and of course following are italian cars