Has The Land Of The Rising Sun Lost Its Competitive Edge?

JD Power studies really hit it home with more than a few of you guys. If you are on top of the rankings, you love them, if you are on the bottom you claim hog wash.

When I first saw the results for 2007 in the latest Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) I thought “Not much new”. Then I started looking into the details and I saw a trend I predicted quite a while back was start to surface. Japan is vulnerable.

Being a self professed Euroguy, the first thing I noticed was that every European Union Brand in the study except Porsche improved in the rankings. This is no real surprise overall considering the industry average showed a 4.85% improvement. This has been the trend since this study started being published. Overall the Euroguys rose 8.12% maintaining a steady improvement in their scores above the industry average. Good work.

So how about our good friends over in Korea? Taking a quick look I see Hyundai and Kia combined rose respectably 8.35% overall, again exemplifying the steady increase in quality we have come to expect from them. Normally I would include the guys in maybe a Pacific Rim category with Japan. But last time I did this it was quite obvious from your comments they were not embraced as a true competitor to Japan. So this time they get orphaned off to their own category.

Next I moved the grand masters of quality Japan. This is where I had to do a double take. Overall they show a decrease compared to their results last year of 2.29%. This means if you factor in the industry increase in general, they lost almost as much ground as the competition gained. A double hit. Only Subaru, Honda, and Mitsubishi showed any measurable increase much less maintained status compared to the industry. While Toyota did increase one percentage point the industry overall out paced them so they actually took a step back. Lexus was my biggest surprise. They narrowly maintained their first place position after faltering with a 6.62% decrease in dependability. Buick came in from behind and just made the pace by increasing 5.35% in the standings. So we have a tie.

Below are the figures and how they all compared to last year so you can discuss them as you see fit:

Winners and Losers By Region

European Union
	2006	2007	Delta	% Gain
BMW	212	182	30	14.15%
Jaguar	210	197	13	6.19%
Mercedes	240	212	28	11.67%
Volvo	264	230	34	12.88%
Audi	279	234	45	16.13%
Mini	280	247	33	11.79%
Porsche	248	252	-4	-1.61%
Volkswagen	299	298	1	0.33%
Saab	326	319	7	2.15%
Land Rover	438	398	40	9.13%
Total	2796	2569	227	8.12%

Japan
	2006	2007	Delta	% Quality
Lexus	136	145	-9	-6.62%
Honda	194	169	25	12.89%
Toyota	179	178	1	0.56%
Subaru	232	192	40	17.24%
Acura	184	207	-23	-12.50%
Infiniti	215	215	0	0.00%
Mitsubishi	260	228	32	12.31%
Nissan	242	274	-32	-13.22%
Mazda	243	289	-46	-18.93%
Isuzu	283	322	-39	-13.78%
Suzuki	318	324	-6	-1.89%
Total	2486	2543	-57	-2.29%

Korea
	2006	2007	Delta	% Quality
Hyundai	253	228	25	9.88%
Kia	310	288	22	7.10%
Total	563	516	47	8.35%

United States
	2006	2007	Delta	% Quality
Buick	153	145	8	5.23%
Cadillac	163	162	1	0.61%
Mercury	151	168	-17	-11.26%
Lincoln	220	182	38	17.27%
Oldsmobile	224	196	28	12.50%
Jeep	264	219	45	17.05%
Pontiac	232	220	12	5.17%
Ford	224	221	3	1.34%
GMC	239	222	17	7.11%
Chevrolet	241	226	15	6.22%
Dodge	258	236	22	8.53%
Hummer	307	242	65	21.17%
Chrysler	232	249	-17	-7.33%
Saturn	289	274	15	5.19%
Total	3197	2962	235	7.35%

Industry Avg	227	216	11	4.85%

Now for a clearer picture of the winners and losers by brand:

Winner and Losers By Brand

Brand	Origin	2006	2007	Delta	% Gain
Hummer	USA	307	242	65	21.17%
Lincoln	USA	220	182	38	17.27%
Subaru	Japan	232	192	40	17.24%
Jeep	USA	264	219	45	17.05%
Audi	European Union	279	234	45	16.13%
BMW	European Union	212	182	30	14.15%
Honda	Japan	194	169	25	12.89%
Volvo	European Union	264	230	34	12.88%
Oldsmobile	USA	224	196	28	12.50%
Mitsubishi	Japan	260	228	32	12.31%
Mini	European Union	280	247	33	11.79%
Mercedes	European Union	240	212	28	11.67%
Hyundai	European Union	253	228	25	9.88%
Land Rover	European Union	438	398	40	9.13%
Dodge	USA	258	236	22	8.53%
GMC	USA	239	222	17	7.11%
Kia	Korea	310	288	22	7.10%
Chevrolet	USA	241	226	15	6.22%
Jaguar	European Union	210	197	13	6.19%
Buick	Korea	153	145	8	5.23%
Saturn	USA	289	274	15	5.19%
Pontiac	USA	232	220	12	5.17%
Industry Avg		227	216	11	4.85%
Saab	European Union	326	319	7	2.15%
Ford	USA	224	221	3	1.34%
Cadillac	USA	163	162	1	0.61%
Toyota	Japan	179	178	1	0.56%
Volkswagen	European Union	299	298	1	0.33%
Infiniti	Japan	215	215	0	0.00%
Porsche	European Union	248	252	-4	-1.61%
Suzuki	Japan	318	324	-6	-1.89%
Lexus	Japan	136	145	-9	-6.62%
Chrysler	USA	232	249	-17	-7.33%
Mercury	USA	151	168	-17	-11.26%
Acura	Japan	184	207	-23	-12.50%
Nissan	Japan	242	274	-32	-13.22%
Isuzu	Japan	283	322	-39	-13.78%
Mazda	Japan	243	289	-46	-18.93%

Have Fun!

autogirl - 8/9/2007 1:47:37 PM

-3 Boost

Think it's a bit crazy to rate cars by religion. But nevertheless funny! ;)
Greets!

mitchatlexusofmarin - 8/9/2007 2:06:44 PM

+2 Boost

I laughed so hard at this Autogirl! You are truly funny! Meet for coffee?

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 2:09:14 PM

+3 Boost

You made me do a double take there too.

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 2:09:53 PM

+1 Boost

That point is shared by a number of you.

Rupert - 8/9/2007 8:34:18 PM

+6 Boost

There is so little difference between the brands...each Lexus has roughly 1.5 issues for each car, BMW 1.8, Audi 2.3, M-B 2.1...I'm not going to buy a Lexus because I will have half an issue less each year...even a Land Rover has 4 issues per car.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/9/2007 9:14:57 PM

+3 Boost

Wow, Rupert, when you look at it that way, the reliability "issue" isn't.

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 10:26:25 PM

+3 Boost

Actually Rupert that .5 issues or whatever is over 3 years.

enthusiastx11 - 8/10/2007 2:54:44 AM

+5 Boost

you nailed it rupert.

the reality is that virtually all new cars are reliable and dependable. and the difference in quality amounts to tiny differences like 0.5 less problems per car over 3 years.

much different that 10 to 15 years ago...

Rupert - 8/10/2007 8:32:57 AM

+2 Boost

Over 3 years?

Hell, even a Land Rover sounds appealing now.

4x4rules - 8/10/2007 2:39:40 PM

+2 Boost

Im pissed!!!!!!!!!

where's Daihatsu???

bimmermike2 - 8/11/2007 11:56:20 AM

-1 Boost

Has The Land Of The Rising Sun Lost Its Competitive Edge? When did they ever aquire one?

Will_ - 8/9/2007 2:06:14 PM

+3 Boost

This is all based off of a survey that Agent009 himself believes is no more valid than the Tooth Fairy! We use whatever information we can cook up to aid our own personal biases, we all do.

One thing that people don't seem to want to understand is that I don't expect Toyota to take over the world and control everyone's brains. It would be a nightmare to me if everyone owned a Toyota or Lexus, because then I wouldn't be able to feel superior to all the other people on the road! ;)

w209w114 - 8/9/2007 2:14:15 PM

+4 Boost

I dont know about you. But I wouldnt feel superior to many people driving around a Toyota.

Will_ - 8/9/2007 2:16:58 PM

+4 Boost

lol. What is it about my tongue-and-cheek comments that clearly upset everyone?

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 2:18:26 PM

+1 Boost

funny if the figures are bias in any way, then JD Power would be a culprit. All I did was take last year and compare. If you don't like the results then tough.

I admit I am not a fan of the way they rank the data, it is misleading. But a number you think these studies are the holy grail. So I have to set aside any personal bias and show you who are the winners and loser based off of their own figures.

You really can't selectively skew the figures it is a all or none proposition.

Will_ - 8/9/2007 2:34:05 PM

+3 Boost

Agent009, notice how anyone worth mentioning has rarely ever, if never said that the J.D. Powers awards are the definitive source on quality automobile rankings. I would make the assertion that they are a legitimate company that does do intriguing research, but I don't know of any serious person here who have stated that Japanese buyers only buy for J.D. Powers bragging rights. Stuck-up European fans however, have stated that that is the only reason people buy Japanese. Do people honestly believe that the only reason I bought a Lexus because it ranked higher than a Mercedes on this list? Foolish if you do.

Personally, I think you have this whole perception that all the Japanese fans here on this site are out to get anyone who doesn't buy Japanese, as I've said, I really would not prefer everyone to own a Japanese vehicle. The Japanese have led in quality automobiles for years, there's really no denying this. They set the benchmark for others to aspire to reach.

I think it's GOOD that all the brands are improving. Who really wants Toyota and Honda to be the only ones making high-quality cars? However, the data you've just spent the good part of a day calculating only shows how each brand has improved, not which brands are building the highest-quality cars, need I even mention. Clearly HUMMER is not "more reliable" than any of the other brands up there, although they showed the biggest CHANGE from last year. That's all this list is, your own personal version of the study so you can attach your own inflaming headline to. You cooked this up to strike some sort of fear in Japanese car fans, which is your talent, although your audience has seemingly grown smarter and has been desensitized to, excluding the fake Toyota fans that you guys insist on taking seriously.

Will_ - 8/9/2007 2:50:55 PM

+3 Boost

lol. Your entire existence is to be my personal watchdog. How sad for you.

Will_ - 8/9/2007 3:11:05 PM

+5 Boost

It's more of a situational comedy to watch you do that "public service." And it's cause of your kind that I say what I say. BMW has the best handling, Mercedes has the most prestige and Audi is humbly just as good as either. I've said this and/or agreed to all of this on many instances, but apparently because I don't blindly worship them like a dumb sheep like the rest of you, all of you have a problem with it.

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 3:38:39 PM

+2 Boost

Will_, I think we can all agree to disagree. But tell the fanboys that.

When the VDS comes out typically the fanboys blindly herald it as yet another biblical signal that Lexus/Toyota is in reality the savior of the universe and those that stray from the fold will be doomed from eternal damnation.

You and I know they may be a force but along with others.

For the fan boys I hear there is a slightly scorched compound down in Waco you can use for real cheap.

Will_ - 8/9/2007 3:40:22 PM

+2 Boost

No I don't. I spend the majority of my time here defending them against stupid people such as yourself, so I understand how it may appear to be that way. However if you all weren't here taking up all of my time, you'd see I don't worship Lexus at all. And even if you think I do, shame on you for attacking someone based on their religion!

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 4:47:11 PM

+3 Boost

I have owned two Lexus I know the truth..

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 4:55:24 PM

+4 Boost

I have owned two Lexus I know the truth.. I care not to repeat the experience again.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/9/2007 9:16:06 PM

-1 Boost

I must admit, sometimes I do feel a twinge of superiority, and it's understandable. LOL.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/9/2007 9:26:29 PM

+3 Boost

Ah, Will, very good post. Although I don't think 009 was seriously trying to "strike fear" into Japanese auto fans. All this takes the fanboy theme much too far.

I proclaim myself to be a CAR fan. I salivate over most new luxury autos that come out, but there are certain models I prefer, and I will defend them if somebody else "puts them down." Those who put other vehicles down, I don't consider to be car enthusiasts at all. For instance- take the RS4, M3, C63 AMG and IS-F. Although we don't know much about the latter, we do know that all four are/will be amazing vehicles capable of feats that most of us will never try to achieve.

I know this is an incredible cliche, but honestly, I would not really know which one I'd choose between the four. If I were in the mood for a car that would impress the neighbors as well as my colleagues at work, it would be the C63 AMG. If I wanted one that would attract drag races and self-proclaimed enthusiasts, it would be the M3. If I wanted one that oculd not only take my friends to dinner but give me huge grins on the freeway, it would probably be the IS-F, but again, I don't know much about it. If I wanted some combination of all three with an added dash of exclusivity and mystery, it would be the RS4.

At that, I would probably take the RS4. That's just the kind of person I am. It doesn't have the undesirable image of the BMW and Mercedes, nor does it carry stereotypes of being "just another Lexus" like the IS-F. The RS4 is something special, something not to be missed. I know it doesn't have much to do wit this article, but it's just my example.

Have a nice day.

4x4rules - 8/10/2007 2:31:47 PM

+1 Boost

The very real thing that retrospective analyses like this dont take into effect (amoung other things) is the very real difference in what is percieved as an issue by someone who owns a porsche vs. a subaru. Think about it. Gee my door rattles in my subaru....I better call the dealer.........

w209w114 - 8/9/2007 2:11:46 PM

-1 Boost

Someone explain to me WHY oldsmobile is on the list

mitchatlexusofmarin - 8/9/2007 2:14:37 PM

+5 Boost

Because the JDP dependability study looks at car which are 3 years old.

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 2:20:20 PM

+1 Boost

If that were true the would be leading the pack. ALA Consumer Reports...

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 4:41:12 PM

+3 Boost

There is a point of diminishing return, reliability for almost every brand is a non issue by these statistics. So to expect increasing perfection in an increasingly complicated machine is unrealistic.

This is starting to show with Lexus. 2004 was the first real year Lexus started pushing massive unproven technology into their cars. Now you see the the results, it slid ever so slightly, but enough tie for first.

I don't know if the recalls of the past few years are probably starting to show up yet, but those tended to spread across a wide range of years not necessarily 2004 or later.

The results are probably more up to the odds or chance than the car. The most recent Honda Pilot I bought had 5 issues, but all were resolved in the first visit. Compare that to the average of 1.69 issues. Minor yes, but no real consequence.

But some where some is driving a Pilot with no issues.

1970toyotamarc - 8/9/2007 3:34:04 PM

-1 Boost

I should hope that the Euro brands had high percentage gains. They were so low to begin with that any gain is going to seem extreme.

009, you used to have some quote about meaningless facts. Yet you spin and twist numbers so often that you have created a new artform of meaningless facts.

The top Japanese brands are so far ahead of the Euro brands that this percentage is the only way you could make it look good for the Euros. I always go back to my goal of looking at the raw numbers, not the spin.

But just for fun, here's my spin, and my 009-style healine. American brands-Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln, even Mercury-score higher than every Euro luxury make!!

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 4:18:38 PM

+6 Boost

You kill me! there is no one light years ahead of anyone!

The difference between Lexus and say even Audi is LESS than 1 issue over the course of three years of ownership. I find it hard to believe you call that significant.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/9/2007 9:29:37 PM

+3 Boost

toyotamarc, honestly. I have noticed you are (gradually) sliding into freakish fanboy-ness. You seem to be losing your mind. You used to be perfectly logical, un-biased, even. Yes, there are definitely un-biased Toyota fans. But now you can't really see clearly. Is it a joke? I can't tell.

4x4rules - 8/10/2007 2:43:15 PM

0 Boost

Gee I guess ill wait for the new road master to come out since im shopping for a dependable luxury marque

JRobUSC - 8/9/2007 8:03:06 PM

+3 Boost

really? Cause what I saw was Lexus #1, Honda behind them, Toyota right behind them, and BMW so barely behind Toyota that they might as well be tied (178 to 182). Which incidentally puts BMW ahead of Acura, Infiniti, etc. Mercedes at 212 is ahead of Infiniti and just behind Acura, all three are so close THEY might as well be tied.

I personally don't think these surveys mean a damn thing but since reliability and dependability are the most common slings and arrows launched by Japanese car fans on here when attacking "Ze Germans", it's pretty ironic when info like this comes out.

Zimmer - 8/9/2007 8:27:33 PM

-6 Boost

Agent009 you called yourself a Euroguy.

Surely you meant you are a EuroGAY, not Euroguy.

Rupert - 8/9/2007 8:41:08 PM

+2 Boost

Wow.

You're so amazingly original and funny.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/9/2007 9:30:33 PM

+2 Boost

Mind-blowingly creative.

Agent009 - 8/9/2007 10:29:53 PM

+4 Boost

Zimmer- Ah how cute! you made a funny!. now where is that "Ban" button?

Kinger - 8/10/2007 8:51:27 AM

0 Boost

Sparkling wordplay there Zimmer, kudos!!

paul3230 - 8/9/2007 9:31:57 PM

+2 Boost

Well, damn, I guess I got to be the first to say it.. go freakin' AMERICA! That's how to win back customers. Keep pushing to the top. Cadillac and Buick could end up a 1-2 punch in the next year or two if they keep this up.

topneuro - 8/10/2007 11:13:32 AM

+1 Boost

This Japanese, Euro and American company labeling regarding reliability and quality is misleading.
Is not where the company is from is where the car is made because of factory quality control and employee work ethic.
In general (some examples);
ToyoLex from Japan are better build than same USA/Canada models.
VW from Germany are better than Mexico models.
Honda/Acura from Japan are better build than USA/Canada/Britain models.
Hyundai/KIA from Korea are better build than USA models.
BMW from Germany are better build than USA models.
Mercedes from Germany are better build than USA models.
Fords from Europe fair better than USA and Mexico.

enthusiastx11 - 8/10/2007 12:26:47 PM

+1 Boost

yes, japan's competitive edge in dependability has been eroded. ALL news cars today are INCREDIBLY DEPENDABLE. please follow my logic before you simply deboost.

JD powers "looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems that have caused a complete breakdown or malfunction of any component, feature, or item (i.e., components that stop working or trim pieces that break or come loose)."

the difference between #1 buick/lexus and dead last land rover is 1.45 PROBLEMS OVER THREE YEARS VS. 3.98 PROBLEMS OVER THREES YEARS!

the differences at the top become totally trivial...for example, BMWs have 1.82 problems per vehicle over three years while lexus have 1.45. who cares? and if you do, you need to be medicated.

Agent009 - 8/10/2007 12:40:46 PM

+4 Boost

Toyota was brought in for process management on the supply side.

NOT for quality issues. Reread the history book, please and start back somewhere after WWII.

enthusiastx11 - 8/10/2007 12:44:33 PM

+2 Boost

smart people realize that the difference between 1.45 problems over three years (buick/lexus) and 1.82 problems over three years (bmw) is totally insignificant.

please do feel free to explain why the difference between 1.45 problems and 1.82 problems is so tremendous. i'm curious to hear your logic.

paul3230 - 8/10/2007 12:44:47 PM

+3 Boost

Well, just reading your analysis make you loose any credability you had. I mean you had ZERO data to back up your fact and since you say that Euro and American cars are only built to last 3 months, yet they dominate the top 5 of a 3 YEAR SURVEY..and personally, I think you are WAYYY off for sterotyping who buys what..especially when your name is "ricemaster"

enthusiastx11 - 8/10/2007 1:01:02 PM

+2 Boost

ricemaster:
which 'people' are you?

enthusiastx11 - 8/10/2007 2:08:29 PM

+3 Boost

oh ricemaster.
please share this data that shows how any luxury brand is "head and shoulders" above another.

how is 1.45 problems over three years (buick/lexus) 'head and shoulders' over 1.82 problems over 3 years (bmw).

data please.

4x4rules - 8/10/2007 2:37:24 PM

0 Boost

although most of what you said was idiotic, it is surprising to see that porsche has slid. It is constantly one of the best quality voted euro brands.

supermoto - 8/10/2007 12:30:38 PM

0 Boost

I don't give much credence to these surveys. I've driven 10+ different brands of cars and my Honda was the worst out of the bunch, and Audi and Acura the best (in terms of reliablity only). Go figure.

Agent009 - 8/10/2007 12:42:08 PM

+2 Boost

Similarly my experiences but the brand names have been changed to protect the innocent.

sracekili - 8/10/2007 2:07:06 PM

+2 Boost

I would like to see the stats differently. How about average miles driven when the car needs to be towed for the first time? The shorter the number of miles driven the less reliable. How about just disclose how many cars were subject to the study and how many of thoese cars need to be towed for the first time, second time and third time and so on. We all can look at which manufactures tend to produce cars that frequently require repairs.

Agent009 - 8/10/2007 2:13:57 PM

+1 Boost

And who do you think will be the worst?

sracekili - 8/10/2007 3:39:26 PM

+1 Boost

I have absolutely no idea who will be the worst, Agent009.

Agent009 - 8/10/2007 10:46:37 PM

+1 Boost

Actually though you have a valid point. It would very interesting to find that a car ranked lower on the scale because the demographic that typically purchases the car also drives double the miles in the same period of time. Say 60k in three years vs 30K.

I can easily see this in a Chevrolet car driven in a rural environment where distances are greater and various road conditions, vs an urban luxury car driven relatively short distances on smooth roads.

Both could be equally reliable in the first 30k however one will rack up more usage over the course of three years.

I wonder if miles are taken into consideration? As it sits we simply don't know.

M53R - 8/10/2007 5:04:06 PM

0 Boost

Well sine BMW is somewhere on top, I take back all my comments regarding JD power being baised, it actually totally rocks! Go JD! Jus' messin

Anyways its a ver interesting way to line up the data this way, but this only shows you brands than improved in reliability. If a brand is ranked higher than another, it means it improved more, or the other one just sliped.

This just backfired at the fanboys.... good job Agend009.

Agent009 - 8/10/2007 10:53:53 PM

+3 Boost

There is a point of diminishing returns, the simpler a car is the easier it is to make it perfect.

The older Lexus for example were less technology laden in the past and tended to score better. Starting around 2004 they really started to pack the technology in as they took on the Germans full force. As you can tell all of the bells and whistles add complexity which makes it easier to backslide.

This may be the case here, but it simply is too early to tell. But in as complexity increases you have to improve the quality to keep from backsliding. The more technology you have in a car, the more things can go wrong.

enthusiastx11 - 8/10/2007 11:51:40 PM

+1 Boost

huu:

dependability is ubiquitous. it's not longer a differentiator.

smart people realize that the difference between 1.45 problems over three years (buick/lexus) and 1.82 problems over three years (bmw) is totally insignificant.

please do feel free to explain why the difference between 1.45 problems and 1.82 problems is so tremendous. i'm curious to hear your logic.

M53R - 8/11/2007 10:26:38 AM

+1 Boost

You really are a troll if you think BMW cant make a 3.5 V6 that produces more then 306hp... But why need a bigger engine when you can make one of the best turbo engines? Is it this hard to use your head?

Heres a a simple proof

272hp/3.0l= 90hp/l (BMW)
306hp/3.5l= 87hp/l (Lexus)

Both are naturally aspirated.
Doesn't it mean anything to you that BMW has been winning engine awards more than any other car maker?
I know you're a hopeless case, so hopefully this is the last time I reply to you.

XYZZ - 8/12/2007 6:52:40 AM

+1 Boost

huu76:

"Improving on perfection is difficult, improving on a piece of crap is easy, even the Germans can do it."

VERY true!

009's using percentages, while not invalid, is just a SPIN game to make the mediocre and downright shitty brands (like Hummer) look not as bad as they truly are.

for REAL SIGNIFICANCE, look at the raw figures.

for quick summaries, count how many brands had below 200. here, the euros have half as many as japan, and american brands actually have a higher count.

the flip side, look at how many brands score worse than 250. or 275. or 300.

another, BETTER WAY to evaluate: look at the RANGE of raw scores, from lowest to highest. modifying this slightly, drop the extremes at both ends. this will give the BEST OVERALL rating.

enthusiastx11 - 8/12/2007 12:39:19 PM

+2 Boost

apex:

yes, let's look at the raw numbers. those numbers you quote are 'problems per 100 cars over the course of three years.' so let's divide by 100 to get the number of problems per car OVER THREE YEARS on average...

for examples, the difference between 1.45 problems over three years (buick/lexus) and 1.82 problems over three years (bmw) is totally insignificant.

please do feel free to explain why the difference between 1.45 problems and 1.82 problems is so tremendous. i'm curious to hear your logic.

even the worst ranked land rover only had 3.98 problems per vehicle OVER THREE YEARS.

dependability is a given in any new car today. it's no longer a differentiator.

XYZZ - 8/14/2007 6:36:52 AM

+1 Boost

...

XYZZ - 8/14/2007 6:59:56 AM

+1 Boost

enthusiast: "...even the worst ranked land rover only had 3.98 problems per vehicle OVER THREE YEARS."

that's nothing to be proud of. that means EVERY EXAMPLE had nearly FOUR problems. within just 3 years, that is terrible!

on another chart compiled by CR, the TIME at which different mfgrs'. products attained 100 problems/100 vehicles were: vw/audi 5.2 years, gm and chrysler 5.5 years, ford 7 years, honda ~10.5 years, toyota ~17 years.

(last two derived by extrapolation, as graph only went to 10 years.)

so what rover achieves in 3 years, is already almost FOUR TIMES WORSE than what happens with hondas in 10 years, and toyotas over 17 years.

DieselRules - 8/16/2007 12:30:06 AM

+1 Boost

Glad I missed this whinefest!

People pay 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars for a house and "accept" that the floors are uneven (And squeak) and there are various problems.

Yet they whine with 1 problem in a car that costs 1/10th what their house cost, yet is 1000x more complex!

I wish other things in life were as reliable as the worst cars for sale now!

twistedneck - 8/16/2007 11:46:02 PM

+1 Boost

All the avg folks think jap cars are awesome.. good, i like being different than the masses. Toyota = dweeby. Honda's not bad at all.. but I can't stand toyota nerds.

XYZZ - 8/17/2007 5:23:09 AM

+1 Boost

Agent 009--

can you provide a link to the original JDP reports?

something smells fishy in this thread, and your claim that the figures represent total problems in the 1st three years.

neither 2006 models, much less 2007 ones, have been IN EXISTENCE for 3 full years yet!

if the numbers refer to studies DONE in 2006 and 2007, that would make sense.

in any case, the apparent disparity between these figures and what CR comes up with is significant. CR has been in the reliability studies game a LOT longer than jpd. until i see the original jdp report, i can't give this a whole lot of credence.