Report: Hyundai Genesis to produce 380 hp - hoping to take on Lexus LS

I am a huge Lexus fan, and I don't discredit this car for a second!

I never liked Hyundai, but they are making some really good moves lately.

I like the way this car looks, and I am sure that it will be a success for them.

CU and JD mean SFA, quoting these numbers will not convince me and a lot of other people.

Just as Micheal Karesh at Truedelta he has lots of reasons why these numbers are meaningless.

houston, that's exactly what Mercedes fans were saying when the Lexus LS400 was introduced. Hypocrite!

I should preface my comments by letting you know that I am a MB dealer and agree with S4cabriofoxone: Lexus showed in 1989 that Hyundai's Genesis strategy is a sound one. Will the car be a true Lexus (or MB or BMW) equal? Likely not. But at such a significant price advantage, it will be successful... and it will reposition the brand. I also believe that Lexus is in for a little bit of a tumble, anyway. Despite what Consumer Reports says about past quality, CURRENT quality is NOT the equal of MB CURRENT quality - these days there is a HUGE gulf between the LS and the S-Class. Lexus is buying back a bunch of the new LS's due to poor quality and technical issues. Having gone though this with MB 4-5 years ago, I can tell you that recovery takes time and is painful. Oh, they'll be back, but they will lose some following. And Hyundai may just win some of it.

Sure, Mercedes quality is better than Lexus. This from a Mercedes dealer.
I will stick with Consumer Reports on that one.

"SO I GIVE NO SATIFISCATION TO HYUNDAI.....IT JUST MAKES ME SO MAD WHEN SOMEONE COPIES ANOTHER CAR AUTO MAKER LIKE THIS AND GETS AWAY WITH IT."

This is just too funny. The irony!

I'm so happy that this car will be available as it fits my requirements and I don't want to buy a Lexus and have everyone laugh at me for paying thousands extra just to get the Lexus "L" on the grille. My wife wants a small SUV and so far only the Tribeca has met our requirements. I hope she falls in love with the Hyundai Genesis and that will be the end of my new vehicle search.

I'm sure hyundai can pull it off. I guess that is why toyota is scared of hyundai and trying to buy hyundai factories.

This will really devalue the LS!

The LS is not cut-rate.

I am not assuming this will be cut-rate, but that is what YOU are implying.

The LS has the best engineered assembly in its class, and the industry.

What is your problem? I have never seen you ever look a debate in its eyes and back it up with anything other than half-truths twisted with bias or straight-up lies

I do infact prefer the look of it to the LS in all honesty. I just hope they can make it as refined, then Toyota/Lexus really will need to consider their business plans.

As a big Lexus fan, I sure hope that you are right.

The more that Lexus feels the heat, the more they will be moving to up their ante, and vice-versa from Hyundai.

The more the competition, the better for the industry, which is probably why quality is improving around the board.

As a big Lexus fan, I sure hope that you are right.

The more that Lexus feels the heat, the more they will be moving to up their ante, and vice-versa from Hyundai.

The more the competition, the better for the industry (and most importantly, US), which is probably why quality is improving around the board.

It's amazing how far Hyundai has come in such a relatively short time.

I hope this succeeds and causes lots of pain and suffering for the competition.

What competition?... Kia, VW.

The veracruz already took down the RX so don't say it can't happen

Are you stoned?

He is not stoned. The RX ain't what it used to be. The RX now uses a mini spare mounted under the vehicle whereit is exposed to winter mud and salt -- used to be a matching alloy wheel in a proper wheel well inside the vehicle.

The mini-spare gives the Verecruz the edge over the RX?

Is that your personal opinion or do you have any statistics to back it up? Probably personal opinion.

That looks good, certainly will be interesting to see what this car is like. I doubt they'll be taking in Lexus with their first attempt but you've got to start somewhere.

Weird how Lexus was launched as an alternative to the Germans, and now Hyundai is becoming an alternative to Lexus. I'm all for another luxury car without any inherent arrogance.

Circle of life.

Good job Hyundai. It wasn't that long ago the brand was a joke. That is a good example of turning a company around.

"now Hyundai is becoming an alternative to Lexus."

How the hell is Hyundai an alternative to Lexus? They are in a totally differnt class of vehicle. The article posted says they would like to have quality close to Lexus LS, but with the price of a Chrysler 300. Which car company on earth does not want to have the level of quality Lexus does?

Please don't argue the "class" crap.

Lexus was able to go after the German lux makes by offering some similar vehicle traits, build quality, and unique content while at the same time undercutting the cost of entry.

Sounds like Hyundai is trying to do the same thing here.

Lexus vehicles are typically in the $40,000+ class. Where do Hyundais max out at? What are you talking about? From day one Lexus was an alternative to the premium German brands, whereas Hyundai played against Kia, Suzuki, VW, etc.

david, LEXUS DID NOT START THAT WAY. The 1990 LS400 was literally half the price of the S420, if I remember.

Hyundai is doing the same thing. And you are doing the same thing that the Mercedes fans did when the LS came out: using "prestige" as an excuse, denying Hyundai's current strength and saying they'll never reach Lexus's level. Well, the worst that happens is that Hyundai can't sell this car under their badge, and start a new brand, as Toyota did.

When Lexus started out, they did so as a Luxury Brand, not as a competitor to brands like VW or Suzuki. That was the whole idea behind the marque. They do not exist to compete againt vehicle classes that are better served by a Toyota vehicle.

when lexus started out they were a half-priced imitation of an S-class. isn't hyundai doing the same thing?

lexus even admitted that they took apart the 560SEL to learn how to build the LS.

david:

actually, most lexus start well under $40,000. the RX, ES and IS account for 75% of sales and all base in the thirties.

The same can be said about BMW's and Mercedes bread and butter vehicles.

Good effort by Hyundai. I do prefer the look of the Jaguar XF better.I also suspect it will handle better.However 380 HP is nothing to sneeeze at.

What does this have to do with the Jaguar XF? They're targeting the LS.

Something that confuses me is where the Azera fits in: it is currently the Avalon/300/Sable competitor. If the Genesis is only a few thousand more but offers a ton more luxury, who wouldn't buy it? Or, the better question is: who would buy the Azera?

I think Hyundai is makign a big mistake with this venture. They have steadily lost ground to the japanese (toyota Honda) in the economical car dept. (Yaris, Fit, Scion Xd ,tc etc) as they have failed to keep the early lead they had with the elantra.
Further more, the micro car niche is under major attack in asian countries as Toyota and Honda (alongw ith Renault, GM ) are goign all out in small car production.

I feel they neeed to secure their base before trying to hit upmarket. Far from scaring Lexus, as much as some BMW trolls would like to dream about, they seem to have squandered the lead they had in the beginning part of this decade for small car manufacturing .

Good points.

Impressive if they pull this off. With the Genesis, Veracruz, Azera and Sonata, Hyundai is making some really good cars now.

I couldn't care less for the Azera; it is ugly!

This Hyundai Genesis though is looking like a real beauty though!

I think the Azera is the best-looking car they've ever made: blows the Avalon out of the water. It certainly looks expensive.

If you've never been a Hyundai fan, what's with your name?

It makes me giggle when people say, "what do you know about cars, you are a Hyundai fan?".

The Germans have tried to take on the Lexus LS and failed miserably. What makes you think Hyundai can fare better? Nothing touches the Lexus LS. The closest thing to the LS is the Infiniti Q45.

The closet thing to the LS was the Legend, the Q was always lagging behind.

The Legend isn't sold any more, and Acura isn't taking any chances with the RL. They really, desperately need to make the RL an all-out luxobarge if they want to move forward as a brand. It has the potential to be a great A8/7 Series/Q50(?)/LS460 competitor. Notice how I left out the S-Class, LOL.

Maybe they could even change the name back to Legend. It would certainly be an improvement. RL is terribly unimaginative.

Watch out boys and girls. Nissan is "quietly making noise" with the Q45 or Q55. With everyone looking at both the M and G vs their BMW counterparts, Infiniti will continue to gain allot of positive recognition. I believe it will make it hard for Hyundai to make headway against these cars.

Hyundai has no chance against the LS460, only people that don't like cars and want something cheap will buy the genesis.

Build quality of hyundai' are much better than toyota, the genesis will probably be a better LS in a couple of generations.

Hyundai has steadily, over the years, improved their vehicles no doubt about it.
But, their problem is that they came on the scene with sub-par cars and this remains in peoples minds. When Lexus started, they produced high quality vehicles right off the bat, and have always been in the luxury class. In fact, Lexus is the top selling luxury brand in South Korea, Hyundai's base. The companies that should worry are VW and Audi, which have many vehicles in the area where Hyundai competes best.

Genesis aka THE END OF the XF and Jaguar as well. Apart from a near identical tail-end, and an absolute dead ringer for a profile, guess what else the Genesis has going for it that Jaguar similarly HOPES for, as admitted by Jaguar & Ian Callum their lead designer? In Jaguar's own admission "Growth must come from new wealth- hence the new Jag XF's somewhat untraditional shape".
At $25,000 less than the non supercharged XF, but with 85bhp more, the Genesis is going to wipe the ranks of the 'new-wealth' segment while Jaguar looks on (once again) wondering what in hell happened to them.
In an relevant aside, the Gensis' interior is about an age ahead of the XF's, which for some reason decided to target 'new-wealth' by offering a last gen Audi A8 redux, and not a very good one at that. They've also admitted that what they've got going for them is a rotary gear selector!! Wow- rotary gears! Look Ma- it turns.
Truly, the Asians are going to wipe the floor with European brands which though innovative, can only keep getting more and more expensive while Asian manufacturers introduce the same levels of luxury and performance for HALF the price (and a fourth of the bullsh**).
Any body on this blog know of even ONE European or American manufacturer, EVEN ONE- that has made the strides that Lexus, Infiniti and Hyundai have made in the last decade? Anybody.... anybody.... even one?

I could not agree more.

Audi.

Looks like a slightly modified Lexus...

Looks like a slightly modified Lexus...

I will by this car and pull off the back end logo!

Nobody will know you are driving a Hyundai.

It's face is fugly. And the rear looks clearly inspired by the LS. I'd have more respect for Hyundai if their styling wasnt so derivative.

Having been a frequent driver of an Excel company car in the early 90's I can't believe I'm saying this...I like it. Hood and grill aside I love the exterior design. If it gets produced I will at least test drive it.

If I were Acura, I would be running back to the R&D department before I got knocked into obscurity by Hyundai.

Acura has nothing to worry about, the actually make reliable cars, I don't even thin they consider Hyundai a threat. Just because it is RWD doesn't mean it will be good. Honda already proved they can make RWD cars NSX/S2000

I can only hope Honda is smart enough to do something about it. They have to be AGGRESSIVE.

LMAO. I think this must be one of the signs of a coming Apocalypse. Next thing you know, Yugo will be resurrected and compete with Lamborghini.

Anyway, as good as Hyndai's cars may be, they have a long way to go in terms of being viewed as a luxury brand.

You know the real competitor for Lexus is Hyundai.

It's not Mercedes or Audi or BMW or Bentley.

Just thought you might wanna know!

The exterior design is great. I'll give that much to Hyundai but that is about as far as I can go. It wasn't long ago that Hyundai was at the end of any and every car joke. Now that they have made a few respectable vehicles they feel that they can compete with Lexus. That's a joke!

Hyundai can build an engine with as much HP as technology will allow, but until they gain the respect of Luxury car owners/buyers they will never be able to compete with the big boys.

Good try though. First impressions will generally make or break you, and quite frankly, Hyundai is broke.

My advice, "get in where you fit in."

There is not one driver running around Beverly Hills in his/her Lexus that even knows where a Hyundai dealership is located. This will never change no matter how you German fanboys wish.

Anyone remember how the Nissan Sentra (SE-R?) was compared in commercials to BMW? Do you think BMW lost any sales to a Sentra?

I know Hyundai execs give you all a lot of fun here, but no one at Lexus is losing any sleep over this. Nor is anyone losing any sleep at MBZ, BMW, Jag, Infiniti, or even Acura or Volvo. Maybe the folks at Buick, Pontiac, Chrysler, or Chevy or might want to check out their competition as they forge ahead with big V-8s, becuse it is they who will feel the heat.

Good heavens this thing has a look of a BMW 7er about it.

This Hyundai borrow or steal so much of it design from Toyota and Lexus. Front light and it front design from the current Toyota Camry. And the back, backlights, tailpipes, and the side stripe mirrow on the sides steal or borrow from the Lexus GS and LS.

If they succeed with this model, Lexus will NOT be the only one that need to worry. The German, American and others Europeans brands need to worry as well.

They hire the former Audi TT designer from Audi to design their up and coming Audi TT "Killer" sportcar. So if I were the German I will be shitting my pant too;)

I seriously doubt they'll achieve a Lexus LS-level of luxury in the Genesis, as much as we apparently all hope they do. The LS has been noted on several occasions of having Rolls-Royce and Maybach-levels of luxury. Now I don't know about you, but if they actually CAN achieve LS-levels of luxury for the price of a 300C I will definitely trade in the 300C for one.

But does this mean I'm going to not get a new LS? No it doesn't, because let's be honest, the Lexus badge has more cache and "prestige" than the Hyundai badge, regardless of anyone's personal feelings on the matter, that's just a fact.

If Hyundai was truly interested in creating a real premium brand, they would have given it a different badge. The fact that they apparently didn't tells me right off the bat that that is not their ultimate goal. The Genesis will snatch sales of cars like the 300, Avalon and the ES350 while allowing those customers to experience a V8, that's it.

What I still find most interesting in this whole matter is how so many people here rooting for Hyundai are the same people who wish death upon Toyota. Toyota = bad, but Hyundai getting in the game = 'poetic justice?' I just find the never-ending hate for Toyota comical. Remember, Hyundai still has a long road ahead of them before they see Toyota/Honda levels of sales success worldwide.

Pride isn't always a good thing, and the other makers you speak of are way smarter businesses than Hyundai, but nice rebuttal.

Lexus is getting a taste of its own medicine! The day had to arrive sooner or later.

Common people. dont fall into the useless trap laid by the poster of this article. Selling cars in not a zero sum game.
Hyundai aiming at a 30k price is not going to take a single sale off a the LS (57k+) anymore then its going to take a sale off the S class or 7 series.

Simply put, they are offering a RWD sedan as a 300C import fighter. Their main competitiors are the Avalon, Chevy Malibu, Buick, Ford 500 (or its new name) etc .
Please note that this does not take away from the fact that they are offering a very interesting car in a very staid market segment.
Add to that Hyundai's ususal price discuonting and you have a potential super hit.

Lexus made a name in the early 90's selling 8/10's cars for 6/10's of the price. This worked very well for them, at first they sold an image for less than the premiums.

Only recently have they upped the ante to actually try to be as technically competent.

"Take on LS"

First take on a camry and then try taking on Aurion and then Avalon and then ES and then GS.
LS is very far huyndai.

JUGNU

What do you think Lexus did?

One of their first moves?

To take on the S-Class.

And it has worked. It paid off. Hyundai has already proven its competence in mainstream vehicles. Like Toyota, they are ambitious and ready to move upmarket. If they do it flawlessly, it will work. The only problem? Badge. Unlike Toyota, they are not starting a new brand, probably because of the migraine-inducing costs and planning involved. But if the "H" on the hood keeps them back, the same thing will happen that has happened to the VW Phaeton.

However, what I (and everyone else) find strange about the Phaeton is that VW already had a perfectly good luxury brand at its fingertips, with a flagship sedan that was even better than the Phaeton. Boneheads. Can you imagine a luxed-up Toyota Crown coming to the U.S. for the same price as an LS460?

It is a very beautiful car. It is the first time I say that about a hyundai!

HoustonCutie,
I can't understand why you are so upset with Hyundai stealing secrets from Lexus - that is unless you own stock in Toyota. Frankly, I don't care how Hyundai becomes a world class automaker, just so they do become one.
The Genesis, I'm sorry to tell you will be a smashing success. Sure, it may not be as good as the LS460 BUT at $20,000 less it doesn't have to be. I plan on buying the V6 version for my wife, which Hyundai says will go for around $30K. It may not be as good as the GS350 or the Infiniti M35, but at $15K to $18K less than those cars I can live with it.

you know, the real loser here is ford. lexus stills holds a price tag well above the common american. rwd, 380hp v8, priced well below even a v8 5 series or gs and all those lincoln buyers are gone.

Lexus called they want there LS back.

They already have it.

Ahh. This brings me back to 1988:

"Toyota has said that it hopes to aim the Lexus LS400 at the Mercedes-Benz S-Class while keeping it at about half the price."

However, I can't be sure that Hyundai will enjoy the same success. It's hard to price a car at $35K with the luxury levels of a $70K car. Unless they really can pull it off, it will have the fate of the VW Phaeton.

This thread contains has much hypocrisy and irony.

Pot, kettle, black.

Ignore the 'has'.

Or how about everything you said.

Why the Lexus bashing? Where is the Hyundai bashing for the very same reason you bashed Lexus?

I call this sweet justice...Hyundai is just taking a page from the Toyota handbook on how to enter the Luxury segment.
Only now they will mimic Lexus and price it accordingly...just like Lexus did when they started out. Just wait a few generations of vehicles they will get there.

Toyota wrote the book on this strategy...copy (Mercedes), price it lower, build quality, utilize the parts bin from the cheaper cars(Toyota) and then make alot of money. Can't blame the Koreans for running the same game. It will be fun to watch!

This only points out even more clearly why Lexus doesn't have the cachet of dedicated Luxury brands like Merc , BMW ,etc

Hyundai has lifted so many design cues off the LS460 that it has now come full circle and it looks just like the BMW 7-Series.

lol

Hyundai has such high ambitions, first going after the RX and now the LS. Whats next? A Sonota that competes with the Lexus ES?

Hyundai needs to first beat off competitors from Toyota and Honda. In America, Hyundai is known for being a budget brand. Lexus is on a whole different tier.

"Whats next? A Sonota that competes with the Lexus ES?"

Probably.

But anyway, you have the same bias as the Lex fans here: no prestige, no cachet, etc... NOBODY CARES. If they can get a cheap car with the luxury of a high-end Lexus or Mercedes, it will sell like hot cakes.

The only problem would be the pricing. If they price it too high, they won't be able to sell it, à la VW. If they price it too low, they won't make a profit. I think the answer is clearly to make a new sub-division of Hyundai to compete with Lexus. Let's call it "Empyrea." Empyrean is a synonym for "sky," which denotes that the sky is the limit.

I like that name, S4. Did you come up with it yourself? It sounds better than Equus; God know everyone will have trouble pronouncing that.

The Genesis V8 will base around the sow $40s.
" " V6 " " " " " $30s.

Excuse me, that's "low $40s" not "sow $40s".
I type too fast.

I think it will compete with honda accore toyota camry and ford and gm.It looks better tha mercedes or bmw too.The Lexus dealer group is too strong to let this car ever come close.

I agree that there is much hypocrisy going on in this thread. Where is all the Hyundai-bashing about the brand not having any prestige, heritage, magic-feel, class? Why is Lexus STILL faulted for not having those things, but Hyundai is encouraged and lauded? Where is the Hyundai-bashing about this Genesis being a carbon copy of a BMW and a Lexus? Where is all the Hyundai-bashing about them being a simple "second-tier" luxury brand that will never be Mercedes, BMW? Hypocrisy at its finest.

This car will undoubtedly change the game and raise a few eyebrows, but this whole idea that they're stealing Lexus customers is what the Hyundai marketing department wants you to think. That IS one thing that Lexus should worry about. Hyundai's marketing and advertising is getting so good that they actually have people believing that their Sonata is superior to the 5-Series, and that their Veracruz is superior to the RX.

Both Hyundai and Lexus are both stealing ideas from BMW, Merc, Audi, Bentley, Jaguar and Ford for many years and both companies should be ashamed of themselves.

It's not kind to take what is not yours :(

Yes but who is Hyundai aiming for again?

Exactly.

How much will this cost again?...like $30 Grand. Lexus posers should be reveling in the streets - can't imagine this group as much better than the lowest common denominator of society, but if this is what does it for them.

All of the Lexus-mongors on this site should have their mom's pre-order one for them.

Inferior?

Takes one to know one.

Hey nicad, What dark hole in Europe are you from? Get out much?

Thought I'd light a few fires with that last comment, but your "inferior" rant is baseless.

Just because you can't afford it, don't knock it. A reputation amongst who? People who don't have any facts to support their arguement - looked in the mirror lately or can you not see yourself in dark hole from which you stir?

You are judging a car's engineering merits based on who drives them?

Just because you don't like BMW doesn't mean they are inferior.

From the sounds of things you aren't very bright, but we'll forgive you because you probably aren't very old.

I hate hyundai, I think the brand is crap,-However I applaud any brand that tries to better themselves. Good luck hyundai , I hope you bring down the bimmer and audi prices.

Not a chance - that's why they are targeting Lexus

Targeting Lexus? Again, they are no way near doing that. I can't believe even the
German fanboys fall for this propoganda. I guess I should believe that Hyundai can compete against the German marques since they tell us in comercials that they do.

Scroll up an look at the back of the hyundai...pull an "L" where the "H" is....notice anything? God, just look at the exhaust tips. Are you blind!?!?!

"The Lexus LS600 hybrid is a very sophisticated evolution of a hybrid. It caught BMW flat-footed. BMW will have to spend a lot to catch up," says Thomas Aney, analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort in Frankfurt

I like it but the grill could be a little smaller

All the backhanded Lexus insults are a tell-tale sign of a worry. Inevitably if Hyundai is aiming for Lexus, they are aiming for BMW, Mercedes and Audi as well. Why? Because those are the brands that Lexus is in the company of. Yes, Lexus is BMW, Mercedes, and Audi competition, sorry to spoil the party.

What makes this situation different from Lexus has already been mentioned and it is quite simple: the badge. Toyota was smart enough to rebadge their new product as something else, establishing an entirely new brand with its own set of goals and values. Within Hyundai's clout lies an image of crappy hatchbacks with subpar quality. Within Lexus's clout lies the LS. Big difference.

Also, as much as the Lexus fans have argued against it over the years, the badge on the hood WAS a major factor in how they came to power. Hyundai, as well as VW with the Phaeton was not smart enough to realize that a radically-new upscale vehicle from a lower-ended brand requires a new badge. May not be fair or understandable, but public perception is everything.

Hyundai is Japanese and so is Lexus. A lot of BMW/MB/Audi buyers will not buy Japanese on precedent - it just doesn't feel right. No $30K Japanese sedan will ever take marketshare from the Germans $60K sedan - Lexus can not say that. How many GS buyers opted for an Avalon? vs. How many 5 series buyers opted for an Avalon?

No stats to support the last bit, but doesn't that make sense?

First of all, Hyundai is not Japanese, they're Korean. And second, you're absolutely right that there are NO stats supporting your hypothesis. There's no way of telling how many 5-Series or GS buyers opted for Avalons, and just because you think people don't think of Germans and Japanese in the same category doesn't make it so. Think of how many E-Class and 5-Series buyers opted for the GS, and how many S-Class and 7-Series buyers opted for the new LS? Following along the same lines in PRICING, the only Lexus that has anything to lose from the Genesis is the ES, which is currently the best-selling Lexus in the line-up, alongside the RX.

Japanese/Korean...6 of 1...

You missed the point...who cares how many GS buyers opted for a 5er? - They are much closer in price, but when you compare the GS to the Avalon there is a serious gap. The point is that there is not another German company out there manufacturing a low cost variant of the high-end German sedans, not so with the Pacific crew. It was tried with the Phaeton and look how well that turned out. Although I easily made your argument for you, I would bet serious $$$ that my ssuspicions are correct.

I would take that bet. I still don't understand why a GS to an Avalon comparison makes more sense than a 5-Series to Avalon comparison? That's you imposing your belief yet again that the Japanese aren't worthy of German competition. You seem to be under the impression that people only cross-shop along brand nationality. The GS and Avalon may both come from Japanese companies, the same company in fact, but that doesn't mean they're somehow more related than the 5-Series is.

For that matter, I'll make the comparison that the VW Passat is a better deal than the 5-Series, E-Class, and A6, using your same methodology.

BMW740Z4 says, "Hyundai is Japanese and so is Lexus."

For what it's worth, it doesn't sound like BMW740Z4 is all that bright and is all that cultured...

and lets hope hyundai comes out with a new badge, but keeps the prices fair

Why do people think German fans are "scared" of Japanese cars? I don't get it. I will always buy German because that's what I prefer. What is there to be scared of?

Why do German fans think Japanese fans should be scared of Hyundai then?

because people like you make stupid comments that make no sense, like "I love my car, and have more money than you".

When the hell have I ever said that? Watch what you quote. I just don't see much of BMW/MB/Audi's base defecting to Lexus. I see alot of new luxury buyers coming into the market opting for lexus based on slightly better pricing, and the 70 year old LS buyers who decided to splurge in their final years after retiring their last Avalon.

You're simply refusing to look at the other half of the picture. There are many, many people out there who could just as easily afford the $85-$150K S550 as they could the $61-$120K LS460 who opt for the Lexus.

Again, low cost German variants of high cost German sedans have never done well. Not so with Japanese/Korean variants of Japanese cars.

What are you saying? The whole point is that low-cost variants from ANY country have the potential to do well against higher-cost ones. Case in point: Lexus (Japanese) against Mercedes and BMW (German).

I am saying that I disagree. German clients will not buy significantly lower cost Japanese variants, but Japanese high-end buyers will.

Case in point: Hyundai (Korean) against Lexus (Japanese) is not the same as Hyundai vs. BMW/MB/Audi.

Forgive me if I have elevated Lexus to be a competitor to BMW, etc. based on more than slightly lower pricing.

No, Japanese high-end buyers, which there happen to be fewer of, than German ones, are just as discerning and demanding as the next luxury automobile buyer. Let's ask Will if he'd settle for BMW's interior quality just to say he has a BMW?

"Hyundai (Korean) against Lexus (Japanese) is not the same as Hyundai vs. BMW/MB/Audi."

No. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hyundai < BMW/MB/Audi/Lexus

I hate that I have to keep on posting this to clear up this whole budget alternative thing that Lexus seem to be referred to as by our friendly German counterparts here at Autospies... Here is another post of mine that I made in another Autospies article:

"... the Lexus IS 350 ($49,100 CAD base price) is a real bargain compared to the 335i ($49,900 CAD base price).

Even with fully loaded packages, the 335i leaves the IS 350 in the dust with premium options ($64,516 for the IS 350 vs. $64,935 for the 335i). But, I guess the Lexus is the bargain, because the 335i doesn't even get ventilated/cooled seats."

lets put it this way, Is a porsche 911 turbo (priced at 200k) really worth its price. Its said to be raw and speed oriented. Well for 35k you could have a wrx sti that is only .3 seconds slower in 0-60 and quater mile times. AAAnd lets admit they are both ugly cars. Again my question is if your not about the badge then what the hell are you tyring to say.

Tell that to the people on this website! Oh wait, you did!

Hopefully that clears up the air (the truth) for some of their die-hard extremist-loyalists.

Just remember lexus started as a supped up cressida!

Actually, they started from the ground up designed as Lexus for the US market, and were re-badged as Toyota's in Japan.

Quit trying to force-feed us your garbage (passed off as "fact") you swine!

Yes and the Cresida had a nicely balanced in-line 6 engine at the time -- I almost bought one but rice burners of the day rusted out even faster than Fords. Now I see that the Lexus GS has abandoned the in-line 6 in favor of a V6. It's not a bad V6 -- at least it's a 60-degree unit but in-line sixes are better.

ROFL, Cressida, such an old car from Toyota, a great car tho.

Umm Audi / BMW made lots of shitty cars out of plane cockpits after WW2.
infact Audi(AutoUnion before VW bought it in 1965 and cleaned it up) made crappy 2 stroke engine cars right up to 1965 (DKW F102) . It wasnt till 1968 and the Audi 100 that Audi as a brand really made a car that wasnt a shit box.

My whole purpose of this post is that, brand engineering is a part of every auto companies stated goal. Lexus is no different from BMW etc.. as everbody has to start somewhere.

As for Hyundai, i think highly about them, but they are going upmarket without really having made a dent int the subcompact economical car market...(look at the sales for cars cheaper then the Civic / Corolla ) Sales data shows that they have ceded a lot of market share and have failed to innovate in that segment.(when was the last time you heard about the Accent being rated against Scion or Fit,)

Actually the cressida partially served as consumer market analysis for toyota luxury cars in the US. And some of the design of the first LS was borrowed from the cressida (it is not a coincidence the cressida and the LS look very similar) since it was one of toyota's most prominent RWD sedans.

Lexus LS? wtf? it's too early! don't be like VW with their useless Phaeton!

Hyundai might have a success, if they launched an upscale dealership network. If they're selling this car within the existing Hyundai channel, then they will have a challenge on their hands.

same imitation strategy as lexus.
it worked really well once, why not a second time?

looks like this hyundai will at least outpower the GS460...

lol... at least that is a dream of yours. The equivalent engine GS as the LS (GS 430 vs LS 430, not GS 430 vs LS 460) has always had more hp than the LS (320 hp vs 290 hp pre-SAE revision, respectively, or in new SAE standard, 290 vs 273).

You would think that the release of the 2008 GS 460 this fall/winter, which will create closer to 400 horsepower, or 380 at least as per the usual engine tuning, will be out before the new Genesis. Remember though, that the article says UP to 380 horsepower, so it will never be more than the GS.

If you want to play that immature game though, remember that the current Audi A6 4.2 is only putting out 350 horsepower. I would be worried about the Germans. :P

Zing.

You know what? I apologize. I just saw the press-release.

I am sickened to say the best.

Pathetic, really.

MY BAD.

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

How about posting?

You must be Korean!

All kidding aside, this is not a matter of:

Japs are dumb;
Germans are dumb;
Koreans are dumb;
Americans are dumb;
Italians are dumb;
Scandinavians are dumb;
Chinese are dumb;
etc;

This is a matter of this car itself, and its merits.

From what I can see, the Koreans are serious about shaking up the market. There is no doubt that this car will have a serious affect on every single car that this car can be compared to, from an option standpoint and, a price standpoint. You would be stupid to discredit this car at this point in time, given the history of the automotive industry.

Signed,

An automotive enthusiast.

Those Hyundai engineers are real smart-asses. Look at all the whining they've caused on this thread!

Did Toyota actually lose something to Hyundai in the "transaction?" Oh my- the secret formula for making reliable cars that people want- they stole it! If they can manage to implement the process toyota is through! Game over Lexus! >wink wink<

Why doesn't GM or Ford steal/borrow/outsource/merge/get owned or something to make thier cars better? It worked for Chrysler, sort of.

Hyundai could put that 380HP engine in the Entourage van and rock the minivan world too- what a commotion that would cause with the soccermoms with siennas or those mercedes minivan drivers. bring the smackdown! Everyone will be so special we'll all need helmits.

When will we see the AMG Genesis? That will be interesting.

Stupid AutoLIES! Hyundai never once said it wanted to compete directly with the LS460! What they did say was that this car would be similar in size to an LS460 or a 7-Series but would compete with the E-Class and 5-Series class and be priced lower than those cars. Get your damn facts straight! You just wanted to stir up commotion with elitist Lexus fan-bois.

I work for a Hyundai service dept & can tell you from experience, the Hyundai built today is ten fold the car built ten years ago. Those that can remember a little further back, can recall when 1970's early Toyotas, Hondas, & Datsuns were not built that well & were considered throw away cars that would never compete with American made vehicles. Well look at them now, only Hyundai is doing it in a much shorter period of time. You can not compare a ten year old Hyundai with a ten year old Toyota either because Hyundai did not turn around until 6-7 years ago. But since then their vehicles keep getting better & better faster than other auto manufacturers & are closing the gap. As for the Genesis, I have been informed from Hyundai execs that the Genesis will not be a Azera "replacement", but on a whole new level 2 steps above the Azera & Hyundai is doing it w/o creating a whole new more expensive line to compete (i.e Acura(Honda), Infiniti(Nissan), & of course Lexus(Toyota). I'm not knocking Lexus either because they are the pinnacle of auto manufacturing & most others strive to usurp them. Neither am I bias for Hyundai, I just commend them on what they've done & I've had the fortune to watch it 1st hand. As for Hyundai cars built today they hold up, I should know I sit around at my service desk like a Maytag repair man waiting for on these damn Hyundais to tear up. I'm not bias either. I actually drive a BMW 540i w/spt pkg because Hyundai has not offered a vehicle until now that would satisfy my harsh driving habits, I do require excellent power, response, handling, & braking. As for my bimmer that I've had under a year, I have had to replace the radiator, water pump, expansion chamber, thermostat, alternator, battery, all hoses & belts, interior map lamp, valve cover gaskets, cam sensor o-ring, oil pan gasket, & power steering reservoir. I see Hyundais every day w/twice the mileage with no where near this many repairs. I can tell you if this vehicle drives like it looks & they say it will, then I'm either trading the bimmer in on the Genesis or Genesis 2 door coupe(2010 Tiburon). Final note: Don't knock this car until it comes out April of next year & you actually drive it & will just see how many Hyundais are still on the road 10 years from now compared to other auto manufacturers; they are a very motivated huge coporation that has many aspirations & I believe will succeed, the Genesis is just another step in that direction.

I work for a Hyundai service dept & can tell you from experience, the Hyundai built today is ten fold the car built ten years ago. Those that can remember a little further back, can recall when 1970's early Toyotas, Hondas, & Datsuns were not built that well & were considered throw away cars that would never compete with American made vehicles. Well look at them now, only Hyundai is doing it in a much shorter period of time. You can not compare a ten year old Hyundai with a ten year old Toyota either because Hyundai did not turn around until 6-7 years ago. But since then their vehicles keep getting better & better faster than other auto manufacturers & are closing the gap. As for the Genesis, I have been informed from Hyundai execs that the Genesis will not be a Azera "replacement", but on a whole new level 2 steps above the Azera & Hyundai is doing it w/o creating a whole new more expensive line to compete (i.e Acura(Honda), Infiniti(Nissan), & of course Lexus(Toyota). I'm not knocking Lexus either because they are the pinnacle of auto manufacturing & most others strive to usurp them. Neither am I bias for Hyundai, I just commend them on what they've done & I've had the fortune to watch it 1st hand. As for Hyundai cars built today they hold up, I should know I sit around at my service desk like a Maytag repair man waiting for on these damn Hyundais to tear up. I'm not bias either. I actually drive a BMW 540i w/spt pkg because Hyundai has not offered a vehicle until now that would satisfy my harsh driving habits, I do require excellent power, response, handling, & braking. As for my bimmer that I've had under a year, I have had to replace the radiator, water pump, expansion chamber, thermostat, alternator, battery, all hoses & belts, interior map lamp, valve cover gaskets, cam sensor o-ring, oil pan gasket, & power steering reservoir. I see Hyundais every day w/twice the mileage with no where near this many repairs. I can tell you if this vehicle drives like it looks & they say it will, then I'm either trading the bimmer in on the Genesis or Genesis 2 door coupe(2010 Tiburon). Final note: Don't knock this car until it comes out April of next year & you actually drive it & will just see how many Hyundais are still on the road 10 years from now compared to other auto manufacturers; they are a very motivated huge coporation that has many aspirations & I believe will succeed, the Genesis is just another step in that direction.