On The Outside Looking In: Has Lexus Bit Off More Than It Can Chew?

To anyone even casually observing the current battle in the midsized Premium market has got to wonder what the heck is going on. Just a few years ago, the top contenders were boasting 300hp and battling it out the on the track for the honor of the fastest “uber sedan”.

At that time, Lexus rocked our world with the announcement of both the LF-A and the IS-F would be contenders in both the “uber sedan” and exotic marketplaces. A bold and significant move from a company that dramatically needed to boost it’s performance image. While many a Lexus aficionado stood up and took notice, something was also missing. The target audience, primarily the contention of German makes really didn’t take notice, much less make comment. Where they simply just arrogant, or did they know something, Lexus didn’t?

Looking at it a bit further down the road to 2008, maybe the Germans did know something. Lexus has consistently like clockwork quoted the IS-F at “around 400hp”, and the LF-A at “around 500hp” respectively. These figures were comparable in the industry with the leaders at that time and a constant source of assurance to their fan base, but now landscape has changed dramatically.

The IS-F will debut later as a 2008 model, but both the 2008 Audi RS4 and the 2008 BMW M3, prime competitors in this market will boast 500HP each, up a full 100HP from the estimated Lexus figure. Even if the 3rd contender, the Mercedes Benz C63 AMG simply maintains status quo for 2008 of over 470HP it will still have a minimum of 50HP more than the IS-F at it’s debut. Needless to say the IS-F will have an already difficult task made even harder, and possible be hopelessly outgunned from the get go. Not a good move for Lexus.

The LF-A faces a similar issue. The Germanic HP war is in full swing, and we are now seeing the new M5 and the RS6 entering 2008 with 600hp each! The RS6’s twin turbo V10 power plant is destined for the R8 later that year about the same time the LF-A hits the street with around 500HP. Other contenders in the exotic market will run close to 600 hp as well, including some models of the not so exotic Chevrolet Corvette. Not only could the LF-A place towards the bottom of this list, there is a real concern that a LF-A might be out gunned by a German sedan or even worse a station wagon. Oh the carnage that would result if that would happen.

While I honestly believe Lexus should stand proud by these designs since there are a significant leap forward for them. I wonder how the Japanese giant will be able to compete against such massive figures. Are Toyota power plants as capable as the Germans, or is Lexus banking on a reliability reputation to boost them in the category as it did in the 90’s? Who knows, but I can hardly wait for the debut of each of these models because only then will the fireworks begin.

My, what difference just a few years makes.

rg12345 - 9/11/2007 6:54:13 PM

0 Boost

M5 ... he was talking about the (next) M5.

Hyundai - 9/11/2007 7:03:26 PM

+5 Boost

"The IS-F will debut later as a 2008 model, but both the 2008 Audi RS4 and the 2008 BMW M3, prime competitors in this market will boast 500HP each, up a full 100HP from the estimated Lexus figure."

AdmiralT20 - 9/11/2007 4:50:02 PM

+5 Boost

I have to agree, this article is full of inaccurate statements and ought to be corrected.

david989 - 9/11/2007 5:37:31 PM

-27 Boost

What this article didn't mention is that the IS-F is the class leader. So what if it has less horsepower. It has an 8 speed automatic and that alone will make it kill all those Nazi cars.

Airliner - 9/11/2007 6:43:08 PM

+6 Boost

If it's not for sale yet... it can't be leading anything... not even the blind.

EL34 - 9/11/2007 10:33:52 PM

+4 Boost

david989, during WWII the Japanese were allies with the Nazi regime and were just as bad towards their so called enimies.

LexusKindaGuy12 - 9/11/2007 6:06:00 PM

-3 Boost

im sure japan has something up there sleeves. whether or not it will have enough horses...lexus knows that this car can either give them a must needed image boost or knock them down even further.

only when all the cars come out will we know.

enthusiastx11 - 9/11/2007 9:49:51 PM

+4 Boost

doubtful. they're marketers, they don't leave anything up their sleeves. they pimp it all out.

S4cabriofoxone - 9/11/2007 6:18:18 PM

+6 Boost

1. Since when do the RS4/M3 have 500hp for next year? The most I've heard from Audi is 480, and BMW wouldn't be updating the M3 so soon. It's not about power.

2. M5, 600hp? This is still a rumor. They may just be upping the displacement. If it does have 600hp, that will be too much power for the rear wheels to handle unless they completely revamp the transmission. I doubt they'd give the M5 this big of a refresh so late in the model cycle.

Lexus - 9/11/2007 6:23:04 PM

-1 Boost

agent009, you of been really bore, do me and everyone here a favor and google on the Lexus LF-A or on autospie.com Lexus has said the Lexus LF-A to have at least 570hp. And it does not matter if the BMW had close 600hp because the new Audi RS6 will have that. And the Audi RS6 is way hotter than that retarded look of the 5 Series.

Hyundai - 9/11/2007 7:11:08 PM

0 Boost

lol... who would? Only fools.

I agree with you insinuation. This is a pathetic article grasping at straws.

Even the title is disgustingly condescending. On the outside looking in? Did 009 fail journalism academy? Yeesh...

Hyundai - 9/11/2007 7:11:32 PM

0 Boost

I agree with your*...

Bill - 9/11/2007 6:44:42 PM

+3 Boost

This post should be deleted. Lame.

Bill - 9/11/2007 6:48:11 PM

+5 Boost

***They know american and euro products are not known for reliability or quality,***

Such BULLSHIT.

You're a moron, Ricemaster. How can European brands like Rolls Royce, Bentley or Mercedes-Benz not be known for quality? They've always offered that aspect during most of their existence.

Idiot.

Hyundai - 9/11/2007 7:19:09 PM

+1 Boost

MidEngine,

I like that quote from Dan Neil. I think he hit that point home with as few words possible. What the LS design has, is a certain vacant quality about it that is a tad too impersonal for me, which is why my heart-strings are naturally pulled by the CL interior, and not the LS interior.

However, let's be honest, it does not boil down so simply into a simple German > Lexus equation. I will never like the first iteration of the current 5er's interior, and I will never feel at home in a C-Class interior. While I like M-Bs, I find that those two are just plain ol' butt-ugly.

Give me an A4 any day of the week.

Hyundai - 9/11/2007 7:53:25 PM

+13 Boost

Houston...

I know that you aren't posting in caps all the time anymore, but your posts are just as annoying still.

ICON - 9/11/2007 8:43:57 PM

+6 Boost

Ricemaster...hmmm....now you have gone past rediculous.

Your asinine comments sound like they have come from a prepubescent and churlish child.

Certainly reliability has been a hallmark of some Japanese brands, but in the current competitive environment the actual delta in quality issues between almost every brand is getting smaller and smaller.

So when you take that off the table as an issue it will come down to styling,image,efficiency,and desireablilty.
That is a competition that I hope never ends.

enthusiastx11 - 9/11/2007 9:51:04 PM

+4 Boost

"HP is all the Euros have left cuz they don't got the basics right"

this is one of the funniest lines i've read on here in a while!

enthusiastx11 - 9/11/2007 9:53:15 PM

+1 Boost

rice:

you and houstoncutie should really get together! you could have lovely little delusional, japan-centric kids together and live in the same alternative universe! lol

S4cabriofoxone - 9/11/2007 11:04:45 PM

+2 Boost

"AND WHAT AWARDS HAS MERCEDES AND BMW BEEN WINNING OTHER THAN RACING?
AND HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY WATCH RACING?"

Hundreds of thousands. How many read reliability surveys from JD Power?

S4cabriofoxone - 9/11/2007 11:09:03 PM

+1 Boost

"Lotus elise lost to Cayman in handling.

Civic SI lost to bloated GTI.

G35 sedan lost to weak and slowass 328. G35 was too unrefine and too responsive for their taste.

New Altima lost to numb current accord."

1. Yes, that's because not only does the Cayman S have incredible performance, but it is actually livable every day, unlike any Lotus currently on sale. Most tests aren't strictly from a performance standpoint.

2. The GTI is not bloated. It has a better engine and transmission than the Civic, making it faster, as well as an entry-luxury interior and competitive price.

3. The G35 didn't lose because of power. This point of yours is very contradictory. You chastise the Germans for only adding power and not balance, but when a more powerful, heavier Japanese vehicle loses to a better-handling, more comfortable but slightly slower German vehicle, you say the opposite.

4. The only one I agree with is Altima. I would buy it over the old Accord, but the new one is a different story.

85bmw745i - 9/12/2007 10:12:42 PM

+3 Boost

Houston Why don't you shut up, stop yelling in caps and stop gloating about Lexus.....Hey aren't you an audi fan? Why are you always bashing everything that isn't lexus, like all German cars. Lexus makes a great product, no doubt. They are very reliable and well built, but a little on the soft side. Some people like them for that reason. Not every luxury car buyer wants a sporty car, but come on, that doesn't mean every other car sux. I love the way BMW's and most other German cars drive, and Yes they do have that "feel". Lexus is a very comfortable reliable car, but what else? I would gladly get the woman a lexus, but give me the BMW. Why are you and David989 and others so narrow minded? You are not real car enthusiast and do not think realisticaly. Real car enthusiast like myself can appreciate a car for what it is, not the nameplate. I love cars. I am a BMW fan, but there are plenty of other cars I would love to have, expensive and lower priced alike. People like you judge a car by whats on paper. One car might handle or be faster than another, but what about the stability, and feel of the car. one might be frightening at the limit while one is very comfortable and stable at the limit. I have driven many cars, probably more than the both of you combined. I know a real car when I drive one. you only know what Jd power and associates and Edmunds say. Hell Even Motor trend will say they have made mistakes in car of the year winners. Remember the pinto, or the Chevy Citation, or the Chevette? They all turned out to be a POS. Why don't you come back when you really know what a car is. Open your eyes and wake up/grow up

Bill - 9/11/2007 6:45:51 PM

+1 Boost

Another dumb post from a troll.

Cynical - 9/11/2007 8:07:56 PM

+3 Boost

I'm surprised that the Lexus fans continue to allow houstoncootchie to sully their good names. More importantly, I'm surprised Toyota hasn't hired a hit man to take her out, because she certainly makes their legitimate fans look bad.

enthusiastx11 - 9/11/2007 9:57:39 PM

+9 Boost

and don't forget...

legendary boring style.
legendary numb, boat-like handling (can anyone say lincoln town car?)
legendarily old buyers.
legendary copy-cat tactics.
and legendary bargain prices relative to competitors.

EL34 - 9/11/2007 10:35:09 PM

+8 Boost

houstoncutie2000, grandmothers will buy it because it's a Lexus.

Monk - 9/11/2007 11:03:48 PM

+5 Boost

racing technology always continually improves so if people are buying Lexus sports cars for "their lifetime," by the time they get it they'll be dead b/c the buyers were so old
anyway I'm going to the church tomorrow to pray that houstoncutie gets banned sometimes soon...jk

Kinger - 9/12/2007 4:40:53 AM

+4 Boost

They're not buying a washing machine, a sports car should have an emotional appeal for the buyer, you don't go buying a sports car based on the same attributes you buy a Corolla.

w209w114 - 9/12/2007 1:35:28 PM

+3 Boost

Houston,

Did they not let you speak as a little girl? Now I see why. Jeez you waste so much time spewing pure Bull here.

Hyundai - 9/11/2007 7:06:11 PM

+3 Boost

I think that 009 has bitten off more than he can chew.

All I could hear in his blah editorial was "something, something, something, flamewar, something, flamewar, flamewar, something, something."

How about we actually wait for the unveil of both these cars.

After we know what their horsepower figures are, and how they drive compared to the competition, we can pass judgment.

009, stop watching X-Files.

Atenza28 - 9/11/2007 9:40:17 PM

+5 Boost

I never thought I'd say this, but I think it's Agent009 who's trying to start a flame war with exaggerated numbers and false and skeptical inflammatory statements. What are you trying to do here 009?

Atenza28 - 9/11/2007 9:48:27 PM

+3 Boost

BTW you did it very well. Do you guys get paid by number of comments to your posts? If so you are welcome and great job starting a flame war to make your cash!!

enthusiastx11 - 9/11/2007 9:48:17 PM

+2 Boost

lexus has done a great job of meeting consumer demand for supremely quiet, comfortable and reliable luxury cars. that's what they do well. lexus buyers don't really care about style or performance.

i believe they have 'bitten off more than they can chew' by moving toward performance. most loyal lexus buyers don't care about performance. and the brand has such a long way to go on handling that it's not worth chasing truly performance-oriented luxury buyers.

they should stick to what they do well.

S4cabriofoxone - 9/11/2007 11:16:27 PM

+2 Boost

Yes, they don't have to be everything to everyone. Their current formula is, obviously, very successful in the American market. That's really all they need.

If they want it to be successful in Europe, they may as well get a new design time, a European headquarters and new engineers/developers. They have the cash, after all. It makes sense, right?

S4cabriofoxone - 9/11/2007 11:17:08 PM

+1 Boost

*Design TEAM.

And, BTW, these designers and engineers would only be for Europe, possibly Asia.

Tonee - 9/11/2007 10:59:24 PM

+1 Boost

"The IS-F will debut later as a 2008 model, but both the 2008 Audi RS4 and the 2008 BMW M3, prime competitors in this market will boast 500HP each, up a full 100HP from the estimated Lexus figure."

Really, the last time I checked the '08 BMW M3 was said to have 414hp and the '08 RS 4 has 420hp, the '08 C63 AMG packs a class-leading 451hp...where did the 500hp figure come from? Maybe they should get the specs right before they right an article. The only thing the writer was right about was that Lexus made have sold itself short.

ThierryHenry14 - 9/12/2007 9:13:45 AM

+2 Boost

I did not really want to post this, but all of you are idiots. This article is only here so the site/post gets more hits, as you guys come back to see what others have posted.

Its only here to instigate fanboys, and its working...

raikkonen - 9/12/2007 10:09:07 AM

+1 Boost

Wow...no comment from Agent009. The least he can do is come back and admit his stupid mistake. Inaccurate figures, made-up stories (like he knows the thoughts of car companies, lol). Credibility goes out the window when you anthropomorphize a car company. Agent009 needs to get checked out - maybe fired wouldn't be bad either.

david999 - 9/12/2007 11:34:36 AM

+1 Boost

As usual, another "credible article" from 009.

Rupert - 9/12/2007 11:50:20 AM

+2 Boost

Agent 009 you don't happen to work for the Daily Express do you?
They make up about as much stuff as you have.

tecnopolis - 9/13/2007 3:17:36 AM

+1 Boost

Maybe the advantage of an 8-speed transmission will help lessen the gap for the Lexus?

kpaxx - 9/13/2007 12:19:21 PM

+1 Boost

I think lexus chews more than it has bitten...

PureBMW - 9/13/2007 12:47:07 PM

+2 Boost

Power is not everything, BMW and the German brands in general specialize in engineering, as thats what the German ppl are great at all throughout history. Excellent Engineers. Japanese specialize in technology and economics, and Americans specialize in cutting corners producing the crappiest product they can get away with. That is changing however. As a consumer i have owned cars of all three nationalities, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I personaly choose German made cars due to the excellent engineering. Handling, performance, are all top of the class. Japanese autos simply cannot come close. The other side of the coin is German electronics in the cars are not nearly as reliable as those found in Japanese cars. The Japanese have an excellent electrical and technological advantage. I think a perfect car would be designed and engineered by Germans, technology and electronics by Japanese. A truly reliable driving machine.

zorbeeze - 9/13/2007 1:22:16 PM

+1 Boost

I actually applaud 009, because he's sitting at home watching you dumbassess argue with eachother for a bunch of bullshit. Everything in his article is false.

bevisroy - 9/13/2007 8:44:36 PM

0 Boost

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1 (Benz show 5.4 in their specs)
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the (REPREHENSIBLE) Toyota/Lexus people.....