BMW 745d vs Mercedes S420 CDI vs Lexus LS600h

Ready, get set, go....

Go? You mean a flame war? Surely that won't happen in this thread... :P

Was this someones highschool book report?

Do you really think someone wrote this? It would've taken forever. I highly doubt it- especially with that picture of the three cars there. cawimmer translated it into English and posted it here.

So if you do the majority of your driving on smooth city roads, buy the Lexus. If, however, you are like most Americans and have a long commute that includes high speeds and rough roads, buy the BMW or Mercedes. Easy answer.

Why don't you drive one of them into a lake and see how well they float.

German diesels are still the best!

hope we see these diesels soon in us

I thought the LS600h competes with Bentley and Rolls Royce?

Well it couldn't even handle a couple of deisels. The mileage fugures are very telling.

The LS600 is nothing but a bunch a marketing crock. That is why the projected resale values will be in the toilet. Further proof that Lexus is a marketing concept, not at heart a car company.

"The LS 600 competes with the 760 and S600 and would destroy those measly V-12's."

It can't even get past some V8 diesels, let alone the mighty V12s..

Hybrids are for AFC's(average fustrated chumps). Real drivers drive real cars. Diesel rules.

That may be what you want from a luxury car but some people liek having all those luxury features with a more involving drive also, surely then you have the best of both worlds, a comfortable and luxurious car to be in while stuck in traffic but also a car that can bring a smile to your face while driving it too.

Will - you are forgetting we get the SWB LS600h in Europe, and thus people care a bit more about handling.

Never mind the fact that the LS is only just as quick yet gets worse MPG.

"thats what consumers care about"

No Will, thats what you care about. Other consumers have different priorities.

Are you retarded Will? What a stupid comment to come out of a so-called car enthusiast! Good handling =/= sports car!!

Full leather dash on LS600.. eumh.. so? It's absolutely NOTHING compared to the handcrafted interiors at designo or AMG Manufaktur! Wood quality? BMW Individual blows it out of the water.

With the German sedans, people have exhausted this already: you get BOTH. So why not?!? The S-Class and A8 are better examples of this than the 7 Series. They can look gorgeous and keep you entertained while driving to work (with their interiors), or you can have some fun with turns. It's not as if people simply don't care about handling. I see your comment as one huge excuse for the LS600h.

This Will has an extra underscore in his username!

But honestly, I a gree with him to a point.

Who buys a luxury limousine for its handling and not its luxury?

I'd never compromise luxury in a "luxury" car for handling on a track.

"I'd never compromise luxury in a "luxury" car for handling on a track."

That's the thing- YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

The A8 and S-Class are just as or possibly even more luxurious than the LS, and yet they also provide remarkably good handling for such large vehicles. You can have your cake and eat it, too. I love the LS460 but it's not for me.

The A8's ride is well-documented as being the harshest out of the entire class. The S-Class has a very good ride, but I'm kind of tired of the barren-looking interior.

The LS600hL is for me.

"The A8's ride is well-documented as being the harshest out of the entire class."

Really? Here, let me show you an article on the new 2008 A8:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/
FirstDrives/articleId=122670

"The 2008 A8 also gets a revised air-spring suspension, which Audi calls "more responsive to minor irregularities in the road surface." Great, although we hadn't noticed the previous system was in need of improvement."

I haven't seen a single article explicitly noting that the A8 has a harsh suspension. Perhaps the Euro-spec model does, but the US version (which I drove) is every bit as quiet and comfortable as the S550 that I drove the next day. They just both happen to have amazing handling for their size, and gorgeous interiors.

"The S-Class has a very good ride, but I'm kind of tired of the barren-looking interior."

Well, I'm not. I AM kind of tired of the LS's button-clad interior. It pales next to the A8 and S's simpler, more elegant designs. It's still super-luxurious, but doesn't look it.

"The LS600hL is for me."

Why? I would really like to know. Why would you buy it over the LS460L?

Interior Ergonomics and User friendliness
BMW 20/25
Lexus 17/25
Mercedes 24/25

Resale Outlook
BMW 7/10
Lexus 1/10
Mercedes 8/10

Lexus has the most user friendly controls and how come there resale outlook is so low?? The others are in most cases okay

This is obviously a European review since the BMW and S-Class diesels are not sold here. Obviously the resale value of Lexus in Europe is pretty low.

And I forgot to mention that the layout of the S-Class interior is excellent. Basically the ergonomics are safe and sound and I had no problems adjusting to the control systems of this car. They're equally easy to use.

im not saying mb controls are difficult but bmw better than lexus in user friendliness?

maybe it is because of the tech in the car it is the most technologically advanced car and the bmw is dated so it has less things to fiddle around with

Lexus resale is terrible in Europe.

And ergonomics also includes space, easy of reach etc. BMW's controls, while tricky to master, are close at hand.

Resale is low because its a toyota, get it. The others are BMW and Mercedes Benz, cars the elite drive, you know the people who have lots of money and power.

Active Safety Features
BMW 11/20
Lexus 11/20
Mercedes 14/20

and this one aswell how is mb and lexus so low they both have the best precollision systems in the market
They should be at 19/20

One question why are the emmission ratings of the cars equal i thouht deisels cars were not allowed in usa because of there emmisions so if the are the same as the lexus then they should be allowed here right?

http://www.stealthtdi.com/Emissions.html

The American emissions system is very different from the European one.

The American system lets Hummer H2s pass while 1.6 diesels fail...America concentrates a lot on NOx Emissions and patrticulates, which diesels emit more than petrols. But diesels emit less CO2 than petrols.
The European system works on CO2, which all these cars emit roughly equal amounts of.

Well put Rupert.

Perhaps, but I can't really see the LS600h selling all that well in Europe, let alone selling second-hand.

It's going to dump $50K when you take it off the lot. Then again, that also applies to the twelve-cylinder German sedans, although not the diesels and the normal V8s.

Thats one country out of many in Europe, after the initial hype has worn off it remains to be seen how it will sell. No doubt the prospect of poor resale value will put many off and they will just go with one of the competitors instead, the A8 4.2tdi or S420cdi.

nicad:

genius, it's 'sold out' because they're only producing a few dozens cars a month for britain.

mercedes and bmw sells THOUSANDS of their diesel version S-class and 7-series a year in that market. so i suppose you'll say that lexus is beating them because it's 'sold out?'

article is very biased...especially with no SOURCE???

the LS600hL was designed to take on MB's S-600 and BMW's 760iL, as stated earlier. Comparing the LS600hL to a diesel is highly irrelevant in this case.

bring in a respectable review before this trash...

How is it highly irrelevant? They all have similar performance and we get the SWB version over here in Europe so they're much more comparable.

please, the hybrid v8 to compete with the v12 european luxury sedans is marketing hype....CLEARLY....people dont buy V12's for fuel economy or because they perform better than their V8 of SV8 equivalents, its because they are V12's. no other reason. the ls600, is just a way for lexus to skip making a v12 by using technology they use on a 20,000 prius on a v8, and charging over a hundred grand for it. for that price you could buy an ls, and a prius, and have alot of money left which makes much better sense.....the diesel s, and 7, are more fitting competition because they are meant to get increased mpg, which is what the purpose of a hybrid is....LS600=a joke

actually, you are mistaken.

diesel to hybrid comparison is VERY relevant.

LS600 to S600 comparison is plain silly and the cars are in different leagues in terms of performance and many other areas.

Yes, the S600 is a full two seconds quicker than the LS600hL to sixty, which not only makes up for the lost mpg but repays you in full (for the $35K extra) with smiles-per-mile.

You people believe this is a factual review? For example, the 7-series is so
despised it was rated as one of the WORST 50 CAR OF ALL TIME by
Time Magazine in a recent issue. Yet it scored higher than the LS600H in this
mystery review. I smell bulls**t of the highest grade here.

Yes Time, one of the all-time great car review magazines...

You think a Model-T was a good car? I am refering to vehicles in the 21st century
with my comments. I have reservations about any review that is not referenced
to a respectable scource. Consumer Reports magazine has the LS460l outscoring a Mercedes S550. Some people scoff at this because it is not a "car mag".
They are not paid by any particular company for a good rating. If it were, I am sure you would see Mercedes or Chrysler with good ratings also, but we don't.

The main reason the 7-series was included in the Time list was because of the I-Drive, anyone who's taken the time to actually learn how to use it likes it. To say the 7-series is one of the 50 worst cars of all time is ludicrous, it was a technological marvel when it was first introduced and has influenced many cars since design wise.

Well the people at Time, a respected publication, believes it is. I personally
do not dislike the 7-series, but I don't believe either the 745d or Mercedes S420 CDI are ahead of the LS600h.

The e65 7-series has been a sales success for BMW, it's the best selling 7-series ever dispite being criticised when first launched. At the end of the day it comes down to the opinion of the person writing the article, these reviews aren't the be-all and end-all.

"On the Autobahn at a steady 180 km/h, the Lexus needed 24.5 L / 100 km, the BMW 16.6 L / 100 km and the Mercedes 15.4 L / 100 km. "

There you have it. Gasoline Hybrids suck.

People in Europe are converting their Priuses to LPG to afford the petrol! Why? because the Prius isn't that fuel efficient!

24.5 l/100km????

That's 10 US mpg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They were doing 110 mph...but still...10???

That's amazing, really.

"And this is one reason why this car will never sell in large numbers here. The fuel economy is terrible. Most Europeans don't spend 90% of their driving time in urban environments which means this car simply doesn't cut it when it comes to overall fuel economy."

Exactly. The fuel economy isn't that good in reality, especially for Europeans who like to drive their cars hard on the Autobahn. And 180 kmh isn't THAT fast, I mean that is still tempomat speed in my A8.

"Performance wise, all cars were clocked from 0-100 km/h in 6.8 seconds. At midrange acceleration at higher speeds past 180 km/h, the Lexus pulls away from the diesel competition by as much as 4 seconds. However the engine response of the Lexus is a bit sluggish. The Mercedes had the best engine response followed by the BMW."

Given the Lexus has 445 hp (Merc: 320 BMW: 300) its performance is very weak. This shows the lack of efficiency the hybrid system has. In fact the Merc should be quicker than 6.8 seconds but I doubt the editor torque braked the car.

I hate hybrids and diesel, the first is too expensive and doesn't return much, and the 2nd is a tractor and it stinks.
Only a fool would pay so much money for a luxury tractors and such an expensive hybrid that doesn't do any good really.

And its true, the LS600 was aimed at a V12 gas consumption and power, of course a smaller V8 diesel engine will get better gas mileages. This is yet another ignorant comparison.

ur an idiot Designer1, ur just a ****head - go to the bluetec website

Hey Monkey boy, bluetec still doesn't change the tractor from being a tractor. lol

The "tractor" is as quiet as your "refined" Lexus Hybrid engine and it gets a lot better fuel economy too. You really cannot see how much more advanced in technology the German cars are compared with the Japanese ones?

I smell BS, where is the reference to this article?

once i saw the headline, i knew the Lexus lost. lol. theres no point in reading european reviews anymore

Lexus does not cater well to the European market - understand why I don't like them now?

this isnt the first time im realizing that europeans dont like lexus. but answer is why though. who doesnt want a reliable, kinda stylish, cheaper than competitor people mover? apparently europeans. to say that nobody in europe likes those qualities really surprises me. its like you guys are a different type of human

you're right.
lexus doesn't make cars suited to the european market.
until they do, they will get weak reviews and sell in tiny numbers as they have for the last 17 years.

We don't buy cheap American marketing that claims the LS600 has V12-like performance. It's just a V8 petrol with some electric motors and it weight as much as a Range Rover Sport."this isnt the first time im realizing that europeans dont like lexus. but answer is why though. who doesnt want a reliable, kinda stylish, cheaper than competitor people mover? apparently europeans. to say that nobody in europe likes those qualities really surprises me. its like you guys are a different type of human"

Europeans have more complex taste. Lexus caters well on American values, but not here.

Firstly, all Lexus models start at a higher price than the Germans.
Lexus doesn't offer any smaller engines, which kills its sales...A GS250 or even GS220d would be a start, and an LS350d (I made the engine up) would dramatically increase sales.

Why don't all European Publications just state, right up front:

All Test Results Will Be Biased Towards Vehicles Designed/Manufactured In Europe... All others (Especially Japanese) Please Prepare For Last Place Finishes.

Lexus does win one category and that is Parking.

Just take your hands off the wheel and let the computer park the car and back to driving school for you!

"Since this is a German publication they will obviously like things that are more European and scoff at anything else."

Please, I'm sick of this. I didn't finish reading your comment after I saw this statement.

Let me put it clearly to you:

EUROPEAN MAGAZINES ARE NOT BIASED.

The thing is, the Europeans just have very different tastes from most Americans. They favor a well-rounded car that is as sporty as it is luxurious. The German sedans' comparison-test victories are justified. How would it ever make sense for a magazine (or a person) to favor a car that just wasn't well-suited to their lifestyle?

european tastes differ from american.

europeans will not sacrifice handling, steering feel, engine responsiveness, etc in a luxury cars. americans will. and they do so in great numbers.

if lexus builds cars that meet european preferences, i'm sure they will sell well. until then, they will continue to sell poorly everywhere except the market they were designed for...the US.

cuz i know a lot of people who either have already traded in a bmw for a lexus or would if lexus had more diesels.



Your imaginary Lexus friends don't count, Nicad.

Seriously, the only biased magazine is Consumer Reports or any other one that does not automatically crap on Lexus.

no nicad.

you simply have to look at what sells well in europe to observe the differences in taste.

for example, american cars NEVER sold well in europe because they were softly sprung and had shitty handling (ala lexus). and this was true throughout the 60s and 70s when american cars were very well made and when america was very well liked in europe.

now, the japanese are trying to sell these softly sprung, shitty handling cars without diesel engines available. guess what?! THEY DON"T SELL. the japanese are foolishly making the same mistakes the americans made decades ago: NOT PROVIDING PRODUCTS THAT MEET LOCAL TASTES.

pretty simply really. hope that history was helpful as you were alive when most of this happened.

The camry/LS is not in the same class, stop comparing it to the heavy weights like Merc,BM and Audi.

When will Ford/XJ bring a challenger to the segment?

Have you driven a 7-series? The resale value of the LS600h was never going to be good, Lexus aren't popular enough in Europe to have good resale values to begin with yet you think their largest and least popular model will?

"i know the typical european car fan (and auto journalists are car fans)."

contradicting yourself again nicad. so now you know every european? then why are you so blind to the reasons why some cars don't sell well on the continent?

exactly what city in which country do you live in?

They never said the Lexus was better. They were both equal but the Lexus got an extra point because of some collision avoidance system.

Man, you really are a stupid little kid and Lexus fanboy. Somehow I have the feeling you're David989...

You should write your own car magazine nicad, what an insightful and un-biased publication that would be i'm sure...

"btw, the leading german mag recently compared the active safety freatures on the LS 460 and the S 550. they said Lexus was better."

Actually, they said that the pre-collision system (yet another innovation that Toyota stole from Mercedes) on the Toyota LS460 was slightly more advanced. However, Mercedes more than makes up for this with its superior handling and braking, not to mention the night vision system that Lexus doesn't offer at any price. Did I mention the Toyota LS has the longest 60-0 stopping distance of any car in it segment... LOL even the 5200lb Mercedes GL450 SUV has better brakes!

Don't even get me going on the issue of passive safety and innovation. For two decades now, Toy...err Lexus has been consistently behind the curve on passive safety. For Lexus its always been about marketing gimmicks and the "me too" factor, with little actual substance. For instance, when the first Toyota Celsior ("Lexus" LS400 stateside) was introduced, Lexus said "look at me I have a driver side airbag just like the S class" but they neglected to state that in order to save a few pennies, they didn't include a key component of an effective SRS system, that is the seat belt pretensioner, which Mercedes had already pioneered in 1981. It wasn't until 1995 that Lexus fitted this technology on the LS because it feared the upcoming IIHS offset test program. Not to mention the LS lacked a passenger airbag until 93 when Mercedes had one in 88.

This general trend of corner cutting and penny pinching on safety is evident time and again throughout each iteration of Toyota's "Lexus" badged vehicles. With each technology, each time, Lexus was late to the party if it ever showed up at all. In 2007 the "Lexus" SC430 convertible lacks any sort of rollover protection mechanism, like Mercedes introduced and made standard in 1989. These days even a $20k VW Beetle cabrio has automatic roll bars... but not a $65k Lexus. Lexus didn't even offer rear seat side airbags until 2006... about 6 years after Mercedes made them standard or optional. Mercedes introduced ESC in 1995 and made it standard on every model in 1999. Do you know when Lexus made ESC standard? Try 2006. I could keep going with pages and pages of Lexus safety corner cutting and innovation stealing but it would simply take up too much space.

Ultimately, Toyota has shown nothing but a lack of commitment to safety technology and innovation on its Lexus badged products. The degree of apathy Toyota has shown for even relatively common safety technologies is telling of its priorities. I mean, if it took Toyota 7 years longer than Mercedes to put a full length (front AND rear) curtain airbag on its IS and GS, how well can you expect Toyota to have engineered its cars for safety in other, more inconspicuous areas?

Companies like Mercedes really go the extra mile in this respect, even when no one is looking. Mercedes, Volvo, and maybe one or two others, take a truly comprehensive approach to real life c

Companies like Mercedes really go the extra mile in this respect, even when no one is looking. Mercedes, Volvo, and maybe one or two others, take a truly comprehensive approach to real life crash worthiness. For example, there is no agency test that will show an average consumer that Mercedes designs its roof structure to be among the strongest in the industry, far exceeding any measly government standard. Mercedes gains little per se by using thick layers of expensive steel alloys in its roof architecture or conducting rigorous roof drop and rollover tests, especially considering they don't go out of their way to advertise it.

They might as well just do what every other American and Asian brand does and build a roof to barely meet a laughable US NHTSA strength law from '76 that was largely penned by bean counting lobbyists from General Motors. Same thing with the seats. Mercedes designs its seats to be strong enough not to collapse in a high speed rear impact when most other brands seats have the strength of an aluminum lawn chair. I could go on... doors that unlock after a collision, handles designed so rescuers can apply maximum force to a jammed door, an SUV bumper low enough to interact with the frame of a smaller car in collision, engine components staggered to not bunch up in a crash, rear seat backs reinforced to prevent objects in the trunk from piercing into the cabin, etc...


The average consumer simply doesn't know any different, so it pays companies like Lexus not to care. Any brand can print a window sticker boasting about the number airbags it has... Unfortunately, safety is a lot more complicated and comprehensive than that. The proof is in the details. Some companies go over the top and out of their way (Mercedes), and some companies (Lexus) do the bare minimum to lure unwitting consumers who think one or two primitive crash tests and the number of airbags are indicative of a vehicles safety. Mercedes does these things because it has always done them. In the beginning, before safety became a buzzword and every brand wanted to be perceived as safe, Mercedes was there quietly conducting the first offset crash tests and experimenting with new technologies while everyone else laughed because "safety doesn't sell."

So go ahead and enjoy your dressed up Camry-appliance-thing. I'm sure it will provide many miles of troublefree people moving. Just don't crash it!

I don't think it makes sense to enter the S420 and the 745d into competition against a V8 petrol carrying 500 lbs of extra weight due to the hybrid drive. Petrol hybrids are the middle step between pure petrol and diesel cars.

but hybrids are meant to compete with diesels. the lexus nuts in here keep saying they're better than diesels. clearly not the case.

the lexus can have up to 610 hp...389 from the gas engine and 221 from the electric motor...but of course lexus limits the electric motor to 49 hp. hence the 438 hp figure

I am sure the results are opposite in Japanese Mags...lol.

Looks wise, my thoughts are: 1) MB 2) Lexus 3) BMW

hahahaa... another victory for us.... another battle won.... go on benz....

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1 (Benz show 5.4 in their specs)
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the (REPREHENSIBLE) Toyota/Lexus people.....

nicad, I DID NOT SAY EDMUNDS HAD INCONSISTENT TIMES FOR NO REASON.

Do you want to know why? Huh? It's because EDMUNDS GETS INCONSISTENT TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The IS250 may be the best-handling car ever, I don't know! But you just can't trust Edmunds.com for performance figures! I would say the same thing if they got the RS4 to 60 in 3.2 seconds, no matter how happy I was to hear that!

I'm the messenger reporting the facts. Look it up. Car and Driver January Issue.

Another Lexus person in denial.

Your comment was worth responding to.....

nicad:

yes the world is turning upside down. too funny.

got any european sales number comparison (lexus to bmw to audi to mercedes) to back that up? yeah...didn't think so.

have a great day!

The LS600hL, according to Lexus, can hold 450 lbs or so.

no matter how far this conversation goes, the S-Class will still be the barer of luxury cars and will still have a respected global image.

Yeah, you're right. It's only beaten the E65/E66 in EVERY COMPARISON THEY'VE BEEN IN, ever.