Update: Can You Rank The Affluency Of A Brand?

Update: Can You Rank The Affluency Of A Brand?

Can you rank the affluence of a brand? The marketing and advertising executives certainly say yes, with proper marketing you can draw a demographic into the showroom. But will they buy or even look?

 

There certainly is a lot of talk who is successful around here, and who draws the most affluent market share. But how do you measure the affluence factor? How about by measuring what actually is sold to the consumer? It would be easy if everyone released comprehensive statistics of what the typical C-Class or ES350 sold for, but these are closely held statistics. Not deemed fit for consumption by the general public.

 

But what we do know who sold what, and the general price range of the vehicle falls into. From this information we can extrapolate some of the facts and attempt piece together the larger puzzle.

 

The first task at hand is to obtain price range of the models from major site such as www.autos.yahoo.com or www.autos.msn.com and then extrapolate the median price. Then by querying the public sales charts we can extract the total sales in dollars for each of the models. Then we multiply the median price of the model by the sales figure we then get the total revenue dollars based that model. By adding the model sales together and dividing by the total sold of the manufacturer we get an average figure for the brand. Basically we get a theoretical average transaction price for the brand. The more expensive the average price, the more affluent it is. This is because people are willing to part with larger sums of money to own that brand due to quality, exclusivity, or even snob appeal. If the brand does not sell or market cars with high enough MSRP then either they market to a less affluent customer, or the consumer fails to see the value and buys elsewhere.

 

Lets give an example:

 

 

Total

Sales

Median

Sales

 

 

Sales

% Overall

Price

Per Model

 

Brand A

68,600

 

 

 

 

Model 1

23,500

34.26%

$35,000

$822,500,000

 

Model 2

35,000

51.02%

$45,000

$1,575,000,000

 

Model 3

10,100

14.72%

$55,000

$555,500,000

 

 

 

 

 

$43,046.65

Avg Sale

 

From the above example we can see that “Brand A” sells 34% of the total as entry models, but the core of it sales are based with the middle line at 51% and there is an impressive venture into the upscale market with almost 15% penetration. This is pretty typical amongst many manufacturers. We also find by adding the total sales dollars of all models and dividing by the total sales we find that the average consumer that buys “Brand A” spends $43,046 dollars. The higher the number, the more affluent the buyer it attracts.

 

So lets let the chips fall where they may with the 8 imported luxury brands Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche, Jaguar and Audi. You knew this was going to happen didn’t you?

(update note: Jaguar and Porsche were added to the matrix at the request of readers)

 

 

Total

Sales

Median

Sales

 

 

Sales

% Overall

Price

Per Model

 

Audi

68,479

 

 

 

 

A3

4,831

7.05%

$30,063

$145,231,937.50

 

A4/S4

32,816

47.92%

$43,438

$1,425,445,000.00

 

A5/S5

115

0.17%

$39,500

$4,542,500.00

 

A6/S6

8,762

12.80%

$57,650

$505,129,300.00

 

A8

2,754

4.02%

$95,395

$262,717,830.00

 

TT

3,084

4.50%

$40,350

$124,439,400.00

 

R8

68

0.10%

$113,500

$7,718,000.00

 

Q7

16,049

23.44%

$50,550

$811,276,950.00

 

 

 

 

 

$47,992.83

Avg Sale

Acura

136,726

 

 

 

 

TL

45,072

32.97%

$36,075

$1,625,972,400.00

 

TSX

26,007

19.02%

$29,240

$760,444,680.00

 

RL

4,919

3.60%

$49,990

$245,900,810.00

 

MDX

42,954

31.42%

$44,095

$1,894,056,630.00

 

RDX

17,477

12.78%

$29,945

$523,348,765.00

 

RSX

295

1.69%

$34,745

$10,249,775.00

 

 

 

 

 

$37,008.13

Avg Sale

Lexus

244,656

 

 

 

 

ES350

62,444

25.52%

$36,725

$2,293,255,900.00

 

LS 460/600

26,350

10.77%

$82,500

$2,173,875,000.00

 

SC430

2,995

1.22%

$65,455

$196,037,725.00

 

GS350

15,645

6.39%

$45,125

$705,980,625.00

 

GS430/450

1,445

0.59%

$53,638

$77,506,187.50

 

IS250/350

41,706

17.05%

$32,980

$1,375,463,880.00

 

LX470

2,150

0.88%

$67,395

$144,899,250.00

 

GX470

16,394

6.70%

$46,635

$764,534,190.00

 

RX350/400

75,527

30.87%

$38,100

$2,877,578,700.00

 

 

 

 

 

$43,363.46

Avg Sale

BMW

216,337

 

 

 

 

3-SERIES

106,558

49.26%

$40,750

$4,342,238,500.00

 

5-SERIES

37,894

17.52%

$63,000

$2,387,322,000.00

 

6-SERIES

6,759

3.12%

$89,800

$606,958,200.00

 

7-SERIES

11,013

5.09%

$99,200

$1,092,489,600.00

 

X3

22,258

10.29%

$38,000

$845,804,000.00

 

X5

24,318

11.24%

$50,200

$1,220,763,600.00

 

Z4

7,537

3.48%

$39,400

$296,957,800.00

 

 

 

 

 

$49,887.60

Avg Sale

Mercedes

180,265

 

 

 

 

C_CLASS

42,236

23.43%

$34,125

$1,441,303,500.00

 

E-CLASS

34,184

18.96%

$67,975

$2,323,657,400.00

 

S-CLASS

19,501

10.82%

$134,500

$2,622,884,500.00

 

CL-CLASS

2,672

1.48%

$122,050

$326,117,600.00

 

SL-CLASS

4,787

2.66%

$140,400

$672,094,800.00

 

CLK-CLASS

11,628

6.45%

$67,700

$787,215,600.00

 

SLK-CLASS

6,067

3.37%

$52,925

$321,095,975.00

 

CLS-CLASS

6,012

3.34%

$79,550

$478,254,600.00

 

R-CLASS

9,917

5.50%

$65,200

$646,588,400.00

 

M-CLASS

23,960

13.29%

$64,090

$1,535,596,400.00

 

GL-CLASS

18,498

10.26%

$53,650

$992,417,700.00

 

G-CLASS

803

0.45%

$95,600

$76,766,800.00

 

 

 

 

 

$67,811.24

Avg Sale

Infiniti

93,802

 

 

 

 

G35

53,464

57.00%

$32,750

$1,750,946,000.00

 

M45

16,413

17.50%

$46,000

$754,998,000.00

 

QX56

8,783

9.36%

$51,500

$452,324,500.00

 

FX

15,138

16.14%

$43,825

$663,422,850.00

 

 

 

 

 

$38,609.96

Avg Sale

Jaguar

12,017

 

 

 

 

XJ

3,308

27.53%

$78,960

$261,199,680.00

 

S-TYPE

2,812

23.40%

$56,335

$158,414,020.00

 

X-TYPE

2,403

20.00%

$36,830

$88,502,490.00

 

XK

3,494

29.08%

$83,335

$291,172,490.00

 

 

 

 

 

$66,513.16

Avg Sale

 

 

 

 

 

 

Porsche

26,274

 

 

 

 

Boxster

2,832

10.78%

$50,550

$143,157,600.00

 

Cayman

4,713

17.94%

$54,150

$255,208,950.00

 

911

9,833

37.42%

$100,550

$988,708,150.00

 

GT3

4

0.02%

$106,000

$424,000.00

 

Cayenne

8,877

33.79%

$68,550

$608,518,350.00

 

 

 

 

 

$75,969.29

Avg Sale

 

 

 

 

So what does all tell us? From the above figures we can rank the top manufacturer for each category by using bold text.

 

 

 

 

Sold

Sold

Sold

Sold

 

Rank

Avg MSRP

Units

0 to 40K

40k to 70K

70K +

Porsche

1

$75,969.29

26,274

0.00%

62.50%

37.44%

Mercedes

2

$67,811.24

180,265

23.43%

57.83%

18.74%

Jaguar

3

$66,513.16

12,017

20.00%

23.40%

56.60%

BMW

4

$49,887.60

216,337

13.77%

78.01%

8.21%

Audi

5

$47,992.83

68,479

7.22%

88.66%

4.12%

Lexus

6

$43,363.46

244,656

73.44%

15.79%

10.77%

Infiniti

7

$38,609.96

93,802

57.00%

43.00%

0.00%

Acura

8

$37,008.13

136,726

64.98%

35.01%

0.00%

 

You can draw whatever you want from the figures but it is interesting to note that the Europeans main sales strength is in the $40k to $70k marketplace, while the Japanese sales tend to congregate in the sub $40k demographic or the near luxury market.

 

Giving credit where credit is due though, the Lexus LS series is doing quite a credible job gaining traction in the over $70k range. But the 73% of Lexus sales are still entry vehicles under $40k. Both Acura and Infiniti also concentrate in near luxury but neither have any presence in the $70k market place.

 

Jaguar on the hand suprised most us by showing it's cache in the $70k+ market. It would be wise to not count Jaguar out just quite yet.

 

By looking at the figures we can all claim who are the leaders. But when it comes to parting with the hard earned cash at this point Porsche simply does the best job putting it in their pocket..

 

 

 

 



klipprandklipprand - 10/10/2007 7:03:02 PM
-1 Boost
A truer marker of the affluence of a brand is how much people are willing to pay for it compared to it's MSRP. That is are people willing to pay sticker price or more? Of course this number will decline over the age of a model, so release year would be an important factor in getting a meaningful number.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 8:14:25 PM
+1 Boost
compared to MSRP doesn't say anything about relative affluence.

it's what a buyer is willing to pay relative to a competitor's product that matters. that's the value of the brand.


EnnNorakEnnNorak - 10/11/2007 12:51:40 AM
+1 Boost
The affluence factor is mostly bullshit invented by marketing guys who use it to bolster their importance in the organization in the eyes of the most senior executives. Only one factor is important and that is the desirability factor which is not necessarily proportional to price. Once a product becomes overpriced it becomes far less desirable as potential customers get pissed off at the brand.

Desirability is judged by potential customers on the basis of comfort, reliability, fit and finish, durability, mechanical performance, and a whole host of other factors including "bang for the buck". There are negative factors that decrease desirability such as the infamous BMW iDrive which makes the product less user-friendly. It never ceases to amaze me how often misguided auto executives come up with gimmicks they believe to be desirable and the public rejects them because they are not interested in gimmicks.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 1:09:58 AM
+1 Boost
"Only one factor is important and that is the desirability factor which is not necessarily proportional to price."

econ 101. as desirability goes up, price goes up. and only a fool would sell something for less than the market will bear.




Bmw8terBmw8ter - 10/11/2007 8:47:17 AM
0 Boost
"econ 101. as desirability goes up, price goes up. and only a fool would sell something for less than the market will bear."

...hence the countless number of used BMW 325s that will never be sold because owners feel they deserve the retail value on their cars because it's a BMW, rather than investigating what the demand of the car actually is.





enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 11:33:45 AM
+1 Boost
8ter:

huh? remind me which brand has the highest resale values...


MercBasherMercBasher - 10/11/2007 5:01:35 PM
+1 Boost
This could be interesting analysis, but it is not credible. Agent 009 must have been an accountant at ENRON. Consider these examples:

Agent 009 thinks that:

The average Mercedes R class sells at $65,200

The average M class sells at $64,090

The average E class sells at $67,975

Not one of these has any credibility.

From the inaccuracy of the Mercedes numbers, I have extrapolated my own analysis. I estimate that Agent 009 is a homaphrodite dwarf from the Amazonian rain forest, with multiple-personality-disorder and severe bedwetting challenges.


pushrod27pushrod27 - 10/11/2007 9:54:20 PM
0 Boost
What is your basis for doubting these figures? (Besides being a 'MercBasher?')
Given that an E350 starts at about $45k and the E55 AMG tops out at about $85k, why is so unreasonable that the average E-Class sells for $67k? An E550 with a few good options will run you close to $70k, and i see lots of them on the street, so the agent's numbers are feasible.


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 10/12/2007 8:14:43 AM
0 Boost
Totally disagree. There are countless examples of people, organizations buying off executive cars for whatever the list price. Rap artists and Celebrities in general could care less about value. So what people are willing to pay is irrelevant.

What automakers use is the best guide, they target income segments. They target according to what the buyers income level is. They also target education level and age. To me that is affluence... the buyers' education level in most cases determines his/her level of success in his/her career. Take that and fine tune it with proven income level and relate it to age and there you have it.

In summary, are people making $150-$250K/yr buying Hondas? or are they buying Audis? how educated and what income level do Audi buyers have compared to MB or BMW?

I think its been already proven that the most affluent and best educated are Audi buyers. Yes I am biased but it is a fact. Older buyers buy MB, BMW is in the middle.


Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 10/10/2007 7:09:11 PM
+1 Boost
I was suprised at first to see BMW sell so few units over $70K sold compared to Lexus. The LS in its fancier models are the only ones I can think of where as the 6xx, 7xx, and M5 are all above $70K base.


Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 10/10/2007 7:10:58 PM
+3 Boost
It also would have been interesting to see Porsche in there for reference.


Auto_expertAuto_expert - 10/10/2007 7:34:10 PM
+1 Boost
Actually, look at sales figures. You would think that 70k+ customers for Lexus are buying LS's and 70k+ customers for BMW are buying 7-series, right?

But look, Lexus sold 26,000 LSs and BMW sold only 11,000 7-series. Based on 8% of sales for BMW (70k+ earners) and 10% of sales for Lexus (70k+ earners) you'd expect more 7-series sold. This tells me that the 70k+ earners for BMW are not only buying 7-series, but 3 and 5-series and X5s (their mainstays).


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 8:17:46 PM
+2 Boost
why is a surpise that the LS sold more volume?

the LS is a brand new model and the 7-series is several years old. sales decline over a model run.

the LS average sales is $82k and 7-series is $99k. cheaper cars sell more volume.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 8:19:44 PM
0 Boost
also, we have no idea how many cars each brand sold over $70k. these numbers are just median prices for entire series. for example, M5 is lumped in with 5-series.


flozel1flozel1 - 10/10/2007 8:55:21 PM
-1 Boost
$82k vs. $99k...does it really matter. Do you honestly believe that people who can afford to spend at least $82k on an LS can't pony up the extra 20g for the 7-series if they truly wished? I mean these people aren't stupid you know.


david999david999 - 10/10/2007 9:00:26 PM
-3 Boost

The LS sold more volume because it is a better car.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 9:00:52 PM
+1 Boost
actually, yes.
most of the people in this country live to the MAX of their means. so an extra $20k for a car is a big deal.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 9:01:46 PM
+1 Boost
david:

better to some perhaps.
and because it's less expensive.
and because it's a newer model.


flozel1flozel1 - 10/10/2007 9:21:49 PM
+1 Boost
Actually NO. People in this segment DO NOT spend beyond their means. Most of these folks don't need to take out a loan to get a car.

You're thinking people in the market for 3-series/IS class where people might over spend to get the 3/IS rather than settle for a Ford or a Nissan.

I know it pains you to admit that people would spend upwards or 80k for a Lexus. I can't imagine how you'd feel in a few years once Lexus release modeld upwards of 100k and sell every one they make (which I'm willing to bet they would).


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 10:10:45 PM
-3 Boost
flozel:

the majority of luxury cars (i.e. over $70k) are leased. a small number are financed and paid for in cash.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 10:14:10 PM
+1 Boost
flozel:

furthermore, there are plenty of people in top series cars who are hocked up to their eyeballs. and plenty of people who can afford a 7 or similar who drive a 3 because they have other priorities. possessions say little about a person's wealth as many people have plenty of possessions but little net worth.

things aren't as simple as you make them.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 10:32:18 PM
0 Boost
flozel et al:

funny to deboost FACTS. most cars over $70k ARE leased.


flozel1flozel1 - 10/10/2007 10:41:52 PM
+4 Boost
Wow, one might think you actually know what you're talking about. The problem is you can't really prove it. Did you actually talk to such people "who can afford a 7 or similar who drive a 3 because they have other priorities". Let me know as I'd like to introduce them to my dog Sasquatch.



enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 12:20:47 AM
-2 Boost
flozel:

i actually do know what i'm talking about. thanks.

here's some reading that'll help you understand that possessions don't correlate to wealth amongst the masses. (of course the 1% of the country who are truly rich don't fit this bill). go to amazon.com and check out 'millionaire next door' or 'rich dad, poor dad.'

furthermore, i personally know people who have wildly expensive cars and things but don't have any real money. and i know people who are millionaires many times over and you'd never know it. hey, even warren buffett just drives a cadillac dts...and he's the second richest man in the world.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 10:02:57 AM
0 Boost
"$82k vs. $99k...does it really matter. Do you honestly believe that people who can afford to spend at least $82k on an LS can't pony up the extra 20g for the 7-series if they truly wished?"

Yes, it truly does. I have looked at each of the full-sizers for my wife-- and it would be much harder to swallow a $100K S-Class than it would a $75K LS460 SWB or $85K A8 SWB. I just don't want to spend that much on her car.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 10:05:00 AM
+1 Boost
Oh and, the thing about the Mercedes website that I absolutely abhor? The packages! I HATE them. They charge $6K for a package on the S550 that includes so many things that I have no use for, like Night Vision and massaging seats. The only options I would get (if they were stand-alone) are heated seats front/rear, rear climate, a panorama roof, keyless entry and a backup camera. That's all she needs- it's standard with everything else. And it would cost $95K instead of $100K.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 11:25:31 AM
+1 Boost
Threepoint1415926- Porsche and Jaguar have been added.


flozel1flozel1 - 10/11/2007 2:49:07 PM
0 Boost
The point of argument has to do with people’s penchant for spending beyond their means. What enthusiast was saying is that the main reason for people buying Lexus is its affordability. IOW, he is saying that. people REALLY WANT a 7-series but because it’s $17k more, they’d settle for a lowly Lexus and put up with the insults that comes with driving an apparently inferior vehicle. But hey, they can live with it because THEY SAVED $17k!!!

What I am saying is that this is the most ridiculous, insane idea I have ever heard.



enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 6:21:00 PM
+2 Boost
flozel:

"What enthusiast was saying is that the main reason for people buying Lexus is its affordability. IOW, he is saying that. people REALLY WANT a 7-series but because it’s $17k more, they’d settle for a lowly Lexus"

you are putting words in my mouth. i've never said that. what i said was that $20k makes a difference to many people even in this price range. if they really loved BMW are were settling for lexus as you claim, then they'd just get a loaded 550i instead of the LS.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/10/2007 10:10:32 PM
+3 Boost
You have a point there


XYZZXYZZ - 10/11/2007 12:30:47 AM
+5 Boost

actually, you are WRONG. bmw IS the poseurs' favorite.

nearly HALF (49%) of bmw sales are the 3 series. less than 1/4 of lexus sales are the IS models. ditto MB with about 1/4 being the C-class.

even if you combine lexus' IS with the ES, that's still only 42%.




enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 12:34:01 AM
+1 Boost
alex:
and what happens when you add RX? hmmm...


XYZZXYZZ - 10/11/2007 12:39:51 AM
+4 Boost

also, was it here on Autospies where there was an item mentioning that, most buyers of uplevel mbs and lexi DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER bmw?

no question that bmw appeals to 'sporting' drivers (who are overrepresented in these fora). but the REAL buyers of luxury cars find little or no appeal in being boy racers.




XYZZXYZZ - 10/11/2007 12:48:16 AM
+1 Boost

the RX is not the cheapest model. sailor 'defined' poseurs as those who opt fot the CHEAPEST model.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 1:15:20 AM
+1 Boost
cheapest or entry level...same thing.

IS, ES, RX are entry luxury. and that's where lexus plays. those three are the vast majority of the brand. and lexus is a major player in entry luxury.


XYZZXYZZ - 10/11/2007 4:21:53 AM
+1 Boost

the fact remains, lexus sells more LS models than bmw sells 6- and 7-series combined.

if you're TRYING to define a brand by the cheapest models they sell, then how does bmw rate with the 1-series? (which they're ashamed to sell in america!)




Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 8:33:52 AM
0 Boost
enthusiastx11 - Should Lexus then be considered "entry level" maker or a "beginner level"?


JRobUSCJRobUSC - 10/11/2007 9:58:00 AM
+1 Boost
Alex, a whopping 73% of Lexus sales come from the sale of their three cheapest models, the IS, ES, and RX, which make up only five vehicles, the IS250 sedan, IS350 sedan, ES350 sedan, RX350 SUV, and RX400h SUV (which is low volume anyway). Conversely 59% of BMW sales come from it's two cheapest models, 3-Series and X3, both of which are priced higher than the Lexus counterparts and include EIGHT models, the 328 sedan/coupe/wagon/convertible, the 335 sedan/coupe/convertible, and the X3.

So on one hand we have the five cheapest cars making up 73% of sales (Lexus) and on the other we have eight making up 59% (BMW), with the BMW's having a higher median price to boot... Hmm... What was that you were saying about all those BMW posers buying the cheap BMW's?



XYZZXYZZ - 10/13/2007 8:57:12 AM
+1 Boost
rob, you can pick and choose the stats you want to make ANY point. how about this:

LS models are about 11% of total lexus sales.

7-series are a mere 5% of total bmw, while 3ers are nearly 50%.

ergo, bmw is obviously THE choice for poseurs. ;)




Auto_expertAuto_expert - 10/10/2007 7:25:26 PM
+1 Boost
Hmm...very interesting. Though it's about what I would have expected, I'm surprised to see such a drop off the "over 40k" customers, esp. in comparison to Acura and Infiniti.

The Japanese for the most part aren't even considered in the 40k+ earners category. I had hunch this was the case, but didn't know it was that dramatic. I guess if you have the dough, why settle for an Acura, Infiniti, or Lexus? Makes sense.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/10/2007 7:27:07 PM
0 Boost
I'm surprised that Audi sells the highest percentage of its cars from $40K-70K, but not Merc at $70K+.


Auto_expertAuto_expert - 10/10/2007 7:47:34 PM
+1 Boost
I think M-B rules the roost when it comes to diverse model lines any hyper-expensive vehicles. Think of the S-Class, SL-Class, CL-Class, G-Class and all the AMG and special edition variations.

BMW has the M cars, but they don't approach M-B in price.

Audi has S-line and RS-line, but how many of these are produced and sold each year?

Lexus is non-existent in higher performance models. Lexus's 70k+ customers I'm sure are almost buying exclusively the LS. I'd bet on it.


david999david999 - 10/10/2007 9:02:56 PM
-3 Boost

That will change when the new LX and LF-A start sales.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 10:00:40 AM
-1 Boost
The LX has been over $70K with options for a few years now, so it won't change very much at all. I don't see the point of getting a $70K LX when you can get essentially the same car in the GX for $25K less--as much as I hate the GX. LOL, as if the LF-A will add a lot to Lexus sales.


david999david999 - 10/11/2007 10:56:37 AM
-2 Boost

What logic are you using S4? The LX as a new model will show an increase in the sales number for over $70K vehicles. Also, the GX and LX are not the same comfort or capability wise. It's like saying why buy an Audi A8 when I can get the same car in a VW Phaeton for less money.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 5:45:31 PM
+1 Boost
The current LX. Sorry, I didn't elaborate. The LX470 and GX470 have nearly identical interiors, the same engine, and the GX is only two inches longer. Anything that's standard/available on the LX is also available on the GX. It's still $20K less. So, tell me, why buy the LX470 over the GX470 if looks aren't much of a concern?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 5:47:38 PM
+3 Boost
Oh and, BTW, you would buy the A8L over the Phaeton because...

• It has an aluminum spaceframe, making it about 500lbs lighter

• It has better handling

• Better fuel economy

• Better straight-line performance

• A classier interior (they have equally grand materials, but the A8's design is less cluttered and more elegant)

• More engine/length configurations

• It only costs $5K more- and you get the Audi badge

There. The Phaeton was pulled out of the US market for a reason... the A8L is it.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 5:49:13 PM
0 Boost
This is my last reply in this thread, I promise...

I still love the Pheaton. It has amazing road presence, regardless of the badge. But that doesn't mean I don't like the A8L more.

And--before you start whining--I definitely do like the LX470 more than the GX470. But is it worth the price difference? I don't think so. The LX is approaching Range Rover territory. And at that point, I'd get... a Range Rover.


answeranswer - 10/10/2007 7:29:41 PM
0 Boost
Nice numbers work and all, but Donald Trump sucks.

Can we get a picture of Scarlett Johansson instead?


SoSnootySoSoSnootySo - 10/10/2007 8:06:36 PM
+2 Boost
What a stupid article and calculation. Obviously, The manufactures that sell their vehicles with a wider price range will be hit hard in terms of averages. The two middle columns of numbers are not even being used.. Why list them in the first place since their ranks are sorted by avg sale? All you need is the first and last column to compute this average which is pretty meaningless given the object of measuring affluence. When I first read the headline, I thought OK, measure by price-above-invoice or measure the income of the buyers? Lame contrived argument w/ statistics for a self-serving article. I'm guessing whoever wrote it owns a Merc...


Agent009Agent009 - 10/10/2007 10:13:05 PM
+2 Boost
They all start around the same range, but it is where they from above that point and how well they do is the issue.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 8:38:02 AM
+2 Boost
Actually I have owned 5 of the makes covered including Merc. But I currently do not own a Merc.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 8:24:11 PM
+2 Boost
the only way to usefully compare these numbers is series to series.

for example, the average E sells for $68k, the 5-series for $63k and the GS for about $46K.

that pretty much tells the story.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 9:03:18 PM
-1 Boost
nicad:

so you're disputing the numbers? please share the correct one then.

and cars are worth what people will pay. and like it or not people believe mercedes and bmw are better cars. and i agree.


w209w114w209w114 - 10/10/2007 9:11:19 PM
0 Boost
Well said Enthusiast!


david999david999 - 10/10/2007 9:17:52 PM
-4 Boost

People don't believe they are better cars. If they did they would outsell lexus, but they don't. If it were strictly due to price, then Infiniti or Acura would also outsell
Lexus, or BMW, etc.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/10/2007 10:16:55 PM
+1 Boost
To degree you are correct. But selection is a key factor here and product placement above the sister brand for Acura is questionable.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 10:18:05 PM
+1 Boost
david:

but mercedes and bmw DO outsell lexus in passenger cars in the united states (not to mention by a landslide globally).

the lexus BRAND sells more in the US due to the 100k+ RX that are sold each year. so lexus does outsell bmw and mercedes in light trucks/SUV.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 12:29:23 AM
0 Boost
nicad:

thanks. but i am correct.

mercedes and bmw do outsell lexus in passenger cars. go ahead and try to find sales numbers to prove me wrong. you won't.

a few examples:
E-class and 5-series each FAR outsell the GS.
SL and 6 each FAR outsell the SC.
C-class and 3-series each FAR outsell the IS.

however, the RX also FAR outsells all mercedes and bmw SUVs--making lexus the highest volume brand overall.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 12:32:57 AM
+2 Boost
oh, and...

"and keep dreaming that people like MB and BMW more. they don't."

economics aren't really debatable. people pay more for things they perceive to be more valuable. in this case, they pay more for mercedes and bmw.


BillBill - 10/11/2007 9:58:14 AM
0 Boost
The Mercedes' made in China are for the Chinese domestic market, and a large portion of them are vans like the Sprinter or trucks like the Actros. Get your facts right, Nicad.

And cut the bullshit.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 11:41:22 AM
0 Boost
nicad:

the difference between you and me is that i'm using facts while you tell us to just wait and see how great lexus will be. they're not there yet. thanks for making my point.

and yes, even bmw can't compare to mercedes at the high end. mercedes is head and shoulders above all the other full-line makers.


cdokecdoke - 10/10/2007 9:04:55 PM
+2 Boost
Out of curiosity I performed this calculation for Jaguar. Now, Jaguar is a very odd brand in economic terms. It is the only car company that I know of where their sales figures quite explicitily show that Jaguars are Veblen goods. Meaning that as price increases demand increases. This sort of twists the results. Namely, they sell more of the more expensive vehicles than the less expenive ones.

The average sale for Jaguar is $66,697 but Jaguar would be number one (by far) in terms of the percentage of $70,000 + that they sell. Mercedes is number one at 18.74% in this analysis. Jaguar's YTD sales have the XK (all above 70K) at 29.07% of their sales. Add to that, some proportion of the XJ (as not all are above 70K, total is 27% of their sales)

So the percentage of Jaguar cars sold that are above 70K would probably be between 35-45%.

This Veblen Good thing is a very strange behavior indeed.


cdokecdoke - 10/10/2007 9:10:02 PM
+2 Boost
Admittedly, this analysis would change if you used last years total sales figures (I used year-to-date), as Jaguar stopped selling to fleets.


cdokecdoke - 10/10/2007 9:34:49 PM
+2 Boost
After performing the analysis with last years total figures the difference is basically inconsequential. Ave price: $65,448 and the percentages were essentially the same.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/10/2007 10:18:36 PM
+1 Boost
There is a bell curve in there some where for each model. While there are top line models there are also loss leaders as well, I was surprised how little the extremes affected the totals.


cdokecdoke - 10/10/2007 10:28:35 PM
+2 Boost
That is very true, in addition in Monte Carlo Simulation the acutal shape of the distribution really does not matter that much. The extremes having little effect would really be a function of the fact that the numbers are slaes weighted.

Now, the problem is that I am not so convinced of the shape within each model range.


cdokecdoke - 10/10/2007 11:48:00 PM
+2 Boost
As as an incidental, if you allocate the XJ percentage ceteris paribus between 70K + and 40-70K, then the totals for Jaguar are: 0-40K: 19.95 %, 40-70K: 34.41 %, 70K +: 45.58 %


cdokecdoke - 10/11/2007 12:46:35 AM
+2 Boost
If you don't allocate the percentage the 70K+ category is 57%


flozel1flozel1 - 10/10/2007 9:06:01 PM
0 Boost
The most important stat is sales > $70k on the last table. It shows that Lexus is trailing only MB in % sales of vehicles > $70k. The positive tthing for Lexus is that they really only have 1 vehicle in this category. I'm sure in the future they'e even improve on these numbers once the new expensive models roll in.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/10/2007 10:21:56 PM
0 Boost
play with stats all you like, mercedes is on an entirely different plane from lexus and the rest. most of the lexus sold over $70k sells just over 70k. most of the mercedes selling over $70K are selling for way over $100k. in fact, mercedes has more than a dozen models in the US with base prices between $100k and $200k. lexus has one.

no contest. mercedes dominates amongst wealthy people.




flozel1flozel1 - 10/10/2007 10:34:57 PM
0 Boost
Why am I not surprised you missed the point I'm trying to make. I don't give a flying fu#k about Mercedes, I was simply complementing Lexus for selling the >70k units they sold WITH ONLY ONE model. Not bad coming from a brand that's 17 years young.

I wonder if we were to the same type of stats in Europe, what would it look like (i.e. the % of sales for each manufacturer in all price categories). Can someone post this?


XYZZXYZZ - 10/11/2007 1:05:49 AM
+1 Boost

flozel makes a good point.

it IS IMPRESSIVE that 11% of all lexus sales are the LS models, with a median selling price of $82,500.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/13/2007 1:32:03 PM
0 Boost
Alex, the median selling point ISN'T $82,000 for the LS, though. It's the median LIST price on Lexus's website--009 put the LS460, LS460L and LS600hL prices into a calculator and got an $82,000 average. That's what he did with ALL of these cars, and pretty much all of them are incorrect. The LS's average selling price is probably about $75,000.


germeezy2germeezy2 - 10/10/2007 10:49:48 PM
0 Boost
This is a very stupid article, and shows the stupidity of this site. How could you put Acura and Infiniti in this comparison and not Cadillac? Mercedes this year took a title Cadillac had for the last 2 years prior. Its true luxury sales which are $43k or higher. And Cadillac is 2nd still. Do some research before you post utter stupidity.


LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 10/10/2007 11:55:49 PM
+1 Boost
what is the scale for total sales...

it cant be monthly or yearly because your telling me the Acura only sells 295 RSX worldwide?


Agent009Agent009 - 10/12/2007 8:41:56 AM
+1 Boost
Those are US sales


kablaamkablaam - 10/11/2007 6:46:01 AM
+1 Boost
On that note, an LS starts at 61,500 though they list it as 80k. How many LS600's do you expect them to sell?..?


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 11:45:55 AM
+2 Boost
huu:

have you checked out options on a bmw? sadly, they're hideously expensive. a 328i sedan with an automatic, leather seats and a few other things is over 40k.


LarryLarry - 10/11/2007 1:12:27 AM
+1 Boost
It is amazing how far mercedes is from the pak.


XYZZXYZZ - 10/11/2007 4:10:48 AM
0 Boost
NOT so amazing considering they have FIVE models costing more than $79,000. no one else has more than 2. lexus only has 1. acura and infiniti, 0.




enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 11:47:46 AM
+1 Boost
even more than that actually. there are a dozen models that base over $100k.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 6:11:54 PM
-1 Boost
There aren't a dozen over $100K... but there are well over a dozen > $70K:

• GL550
• G500
• S550
• E63 AMG
• CLK63 AMG
• CL550
• SL550
• SL55 AMG (still available?)
• ML63 AMG
• S63 AMG
• CL63 AMG
• CLK 63 AMG Black Series
• S600
• CL600
• SL600
• S65 AMG
• CL65 AMG
• SL65 AMG
• SLR McLaren


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 6:31:35 PM
+1 Boost
base prices for 13 models:

s63 128
s65 195
cl63 138
cl65 198
sl55 130
sl65 188
g55 111
s600 145
cl550 104
cl600 148
sl600 134
slr 498
clk black 140


M35MTM35MT - 10/11/2007 8:27:47 AM
+2 Boost
whew...made it to this one late...uh, only one observation:

The median price for an S-class is 134k?? Are there really as many people buying the S600/S63 as those buying the S550, which is around 100k?

100k(50%) + 160k(50%) = 130k

I would have thought that it would have been 90/10, S550 sales to S600/S63 sales. Just an observation...


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 8:50:03 AM
+2 Boost
That is what it looks like.

There will be entry level cars at $87,500 but the range can go as high as $181,500. The bulk of sales are in between. In this case since it is only 10% of the total fleet sales, even dropping the median artificially to say $100K made no impact on the overall rankings.


M35MTM35MT - 10/11/2007 9:45:46 AM
+2 Boost
Didnt think it would. I just assumed that the higher trim S class was more exclusive, because I also assumed, there arent that many true enthusiasts to buy them. That is impossible to determine though.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 12:46:24 PM
+3 Boost
Correct- No one said it is perfect but it is an enlightening stab by looking at the figures differently.



LarryLarry - 10/11/2007 9:22:27 AM
+3 Boost
BMW 3 series out sell both the lexus IS and the rebadged camry Lexus ES combined.


LarryLarry - 10/11/2007 9:26:24 AM
0 Boost
Audi sells the fewest amount of cars of the six brands, throw in Lincoln, Cadillac and Volvo and Audi is 9th in terms of US sales.


GermanNutGermanNut - 10/11/2007 10:51:36 AM
+1 Boost
Larry posts his bias information as usual.

Audi maybe 9th in U.S. sales, but they are 3rd in worldwide sales and soon to be second.

It just shows you, Larry, that the U.S. maybe the largest car market in the world, but the rest of the world is a pretty important factor if a brand that is ranked 9th in the U.S. can be ranked 3rd and very close to moving up to second in worldwide sales.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 6:15:21 PM
0 Boost
Audi now sells more cars in China, Great Britain and Germany than the US. America is just not their key market, Larry.


StarStar - 10/11/2007 9:48:51 AM
+3 Boost
Desirability in the eyes of badge whores...Lexus will win. Desirability in the eyes of car enthusiasts...Lexus DOESN'T EVEN EXIST.


flozel1flozel1 - 10/11/2007 2:35:09 PM
0 Boost
Two completely opposite views, but both is true to some extent.


StarStar - 10/11/2007 9:46:30 AM
+5 Boost
So the only cars Lexus actually sells are the RX and the ES Camry both which are driven almost exclusively by soccer moms who only wanted the Lexus badge. Lexus owners = biggest badge whores


XYZZXYZZ - 10/13/2007 8:12:21 AM
+1 Boost
...



XYZZXYZZ - 10/13/2007 8:46:21 AM
+1 Boost

LS models are about 11% of total lexus sales.

7-series are a mere 5% of total bmw, while 3ers are nearly 50%.

bmw is obviously THE choice for poseurs.




CzelinskiCzelinski - 10/11/2007 9:57:30 AM
+3 Boost
Funny how in America the Lexus badge is seen as desirable. Here in Europe, you'd pay more not to have it lol. Ahh well, designed for the American market, so figures i suppose.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 10/11/2007 11:49:58 AM
+2 Boost
shouldn't you include all the entry cars for each brand in your totals?


Agent009Agent009 - 10/12/2007 8:43:25 AM
+1 Boost
They are in the pricing calculation


SpicyMikeySpicyMikey - 10/11/2007 10:30:52 AM
+8 Boost
The biggest flaw here is the average price used for each model group. True, we don't know exactly what the car truly sold for (minor problem). But the biggest problem is we don't know what specific "trim" levels sold within each group. In the case of the Audi 4 series, it's a huge spread. The A4 bases at $28k and and goes up to $66k for the RS-4 model. Also, these are just base prices. No way of telling what options or accessories were added.

This makes the numbers not-so-accurate. However, they are based in some degree of reality and are very revealing. I think the Audi 4 series scenerio is the worst and probably explains why Audi looks so good. In the same vein, it probably makes MB look worse because most MB's sell for much more then the base price (unlike Acura) which sells it's cars pretty much loaded.

I think it still shows some interesting things from the sales unit perspective, such as how everyone's flagship car sells in the single digit percentages relative to total sales (except the Lexus LS which accounts for 10% of total sales . Also, how BMW, Audi, and Infiniti get half their sales from the least expensive model they make. And I thought Acura's sales were one sided with everything going to the MDX and TL? Hell, Acura looks balanced compared to BMW and Infiniti

Seeing this data compiled in one spot like this (assuming it's accurate) was very revealing. Thanks Agent 009


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 11:06:53 AM
+2 Boost
RS4 was not included for that reason.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 11:09:01 AM
+2 Boost
The data has been scrutinized by an outside source of reputable nature and while it is a best guess, it is as accurate as we can go with the public data.




bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 10/11/2007 10:59:25 AM
+1 Boost
im curious about where Cadillac is in this luxury group, if Jaguar is here by all means Cadillac should be......Its interesting to see BMW has 2 best selling sedans the 3, and the 5 in their classes....and the s class isnt a single digit percent


david999david999 - 10/11/2007 11:07:00 AM
+2 Boost

Many of these "sales" numbers have to be questioned. Take the Mercedes R-Class
for example. There is no way that they sold almost 10,000 units at an average price of $65,000. Mercedes is practically giving them away if you step into a dealership. The base price is around $45,000 in the U.S. Also, the M-Class with a base price lower than the GL-Class selling on average $11,000?
Come on.


david999david999 - 10/11/2007 11:08:31 AM
0 Boost

Many of these "sales" numbers have to be questioned. Take the Mercedes R-Class
for example. There is no way that they sold almost 10,000 units at an average price of $65,000. Mercedes is practically giving them away if you step into a dealership. The base price is around $45,000 in the U.S. Also, the M-Class with a base price lower than the GL-Class selling on average $11,000 more?
Come on.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 11:28:20 AM
+4 Boost
Read the article.
The price is the median price. Actual figures are never released. The R-class amount to 5% overall for Merc and constitutes very little to the overall ranking.


david999david999 - 10/11/2007 11:44:43 AM
0 Boost

The M-Class and GL represent another 23% of Mercedes figures. My point is that
to use a median price is totally inaccurate and misleading.


kart1kart1 - 10/11/2007 12:04:33 PM
+1 Boost
I hadn't read this one, but it is what I am trying to say.


LarryLarry - 10/11/2007 11:10:19 AM
+1 Boost
germannu you sayings soon as 3 or 4 years audi will be #2 in the world, 3 or 4 years is not soon a month is soon, 3 or 4 years is a long time from now, and 2015 is not soon either


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 6:19:27 PM
+2 Boost
I'm sick of him saying that. Whatever happens, happens. I don't care how many they sell- Audis are still amazing.


RupertRupert - 10/11/2007 11:41:08 AM
+1 Boost
May I ask why a whore and a hobo are getting out the car in the picture?


flozel1flozel1 - 10/11/2007 2:37:09 PM
+3 Boost
The whore had a boob job.


GermanNutGermanNut - 10/11/2007 11:45:48 AM
+2 Boost
Audi will be number 2 worldwide in another 3 or 4 years. Larry, look at Audi, only number 9 in the U.S. in sales but soon to be number 2 in the world.

I think they have a good plan to focus more on China, which we all know will be the largest car market in the world within the next 5 years. Audi dominates the Chinese market.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 6:20:22 PM
+1 Boost
"I think they have a good plan to focus more on China, which we all know will be the largest car market in the world within the next 5 years. Audi dominates the Chinese market."

That one, I agree with.


GermanNutGermanNut - 10/11/2007 11:48:18 AM
+1 Boost
3 to 4 years is extremely soon. I agree 2015 isn't, but by 2015 Mercedes will be far back in Audi's rearview mirror in terms of worldwide annual sales.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 6:21:53 PM
0 Boost
I disagree. Audi has had very consistent improvement over the last few years- but Mercedes and BMW have, too. And if Audi surpasses Merc, they still won't be very far behind, ever. Please, let's be serious here. I love Audis but I know how the industry works.


ReasonableDoubtReasonableDoubt - 10/11/2007 11:52:57 AM
+1 Boost
These numbers are a little (alot) misleading. I was looking at your final figures and something didn't look right. You stated that 56.6% of Jaguar (median price $81,147.50) sales were for cars that exceeded the 70k+ range but that only accounts for 6802 vehicles sold. The Lexus LS (median price $82,500) accounts for 10.77% yet it sold 26,350 vehicles. Which means that it outsold the Merc S, BMW 7, and Audi A8. Someone said that Lexus sold a lot of RX's. That is true but it also sold a lot of ES, IS, and LS's


Agent009Agent009 - 10/12/2007 8:57:47 AM
+1 Boost
They seem to be selling a large amount of LS models, which signifies (at least to me) that they have generated in interest in models at that price range.

Provided this isn't just the initial blip from a new model, then I would expect them to release more models in the range.


kart1kart1 - 10/11/2007 11:59:26 AM
+3 Boost
Agent 009

Did you get the median prices from the cars sold, or the cars available for sale?

You wrote that you got the numbers from MSN and Yahoo, thus I am assuming that they don't have the numbers based on sales, but based on the cars available for sale by their respective companies.

Here is your flaw, you are looking at the median sales price of the cars available for sale, not what is exactly purchased by the customers. This really doesn't matter much when you compare most models, but it does matter when you are looking at cars like the MB S-class a car with a large range. This also applies to cars like the 7 series, A8, SL class, etc. Now if you have proof that the purchased price of these cars is at this level, then your data is not skewed. However calculating sales numbers in there and then using a skewed average price provides us the wrong results, which is not good when you are trying to provide such an analysis.

Now I do want to say that I expected to MB to have higher numbers, but being off doesn't provide the real picture, which may provide a better scenario for the other brands.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/11/2007 12:59:01 PM
+1 Boost
The Median price is drawn from the price ranges defined for the model. The car list prices between say $44,500 and say $65,000.

There is no attempt to correlate to actual sales prices that is impossible with the data known. Only the manufactures know that, so we chose from the data we have.

However statistically speaking there will always be a bell curve (remember math class?) where there are sales at both extremes but the bulk for sales falls somewhere in the middle. If a model has multiple trim lines and the maker did not separate the sales of each then the median of each was chosen and a value is assigned mathematically.

If in the case of Mercedes and Porsche where the breakout is specific, then the median for each model is used.

Only in one case did I leave out a value (The Audi RS4). Audi sells a lot of A4 models and very few RS4 models. So I counted the sales of the RS4 but did not factor in an inflated value into the median price. That would have artificially increased the A4 median price and since that is half of the sales also boosted the average measurably.

While you might see a number that appears to be high you also need to look at the percentage to overall sales is gives. So even if the Lexus LS appears high or low, since it only contributes to 10% of the overall sales the fluctuation is may 1% to the total.

Basically splitting hairs.



david999david999 - 10/11/2007 2:03:56 PM
+2 Boost

Why do you throw in a median price of the ML at $64,000? The vast majority of ML-class sold are under $50,000, yet you use the ML63 AMG at $87,000 on the high end to get your median price. Very few AMG MLs are sold. Examples like this is what skews your version of the bell curve.


kart1kart1 - 10/11/2007 2:51:32 PM
+3 Boost
I understand the bell curve, normal distribution, etc. I understand how you got the median price and why you chose it. However you should acknowledge that when showing data like this weights are necessary, again I do expect MB's to have higher prices, but I don't expect the average weighted data of the S-class to be at $134,000. That is all that I am saying.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/11/2007 8:17:13 PM
+1 Boost
"There is no attempt to correlate to actual sales prices that is impossible with the data known. Only the manufactures know that, so we chose from the data we have."

This is why you shouldn't have done the article in the first place- it just doesn't work. I know you were trying to cause a stir, but it is not correct data.

You say you left out the RS4... why didn't you leave out high-end AMGs, also? How many S65s does Mercedes sell? CL65s? CLK Blacks? In fact, I don't think any AMG models should be included if the RS cars aren't. M's are different, though- the M3s sell well.


Jag_xfrJag_xfr - 10/11/2007 1:18:30 PM
+1 Boost
I would rank them as follows,

1st = Jaguar
2nd = Porsche
The rest are all quite similar...



gsh23gsh23 - 10/11/2007 1:28:53 PM
-4 Boost
i agree with your ranking. the title of the list would read, "list of cars i would not buy."


cdokecdoke - 10/11/2007 1:51:14 PM
+2 Boost
You know people, instead of just sitting there and complaining, why not actually do the analysis for yourselves?

It is true that because the price spread for each model is so high for Mercedes that the the error will be higher fr the model average, as sales within the model are highly sensitive to price as a result.

So, I took out the AMG models and did their performance separately. I achieved the sales figures by taking their total yearly sales and dividing it ceteris paribus over the AMG model range. The prices were gleaned from MBUSA. Funnily enough, in some cases (S-Class) the AMG models were a detriment to the average for the car- this is because the S63-AMG is significantly cheaper than the S600. Anyway in the end the Average price came to $60,328.01 Now, to be fair AMG had a particularly bad year last year and so if you modify their total sales upward in anticipation of their projected sales (30,000 total- which is REALLY optimistic), you arrive at an average of $61,900.60. In addition, their sales were modified in the example by 45% (as 45% of all AMG sales are to the US) if you were to take for the heck of it all AMG sales into account, then you arrive At $61,883 when using the actual data and $64,956 when using the optimistic data for AMG sales.

There is a caveat with this, and that would be that I was unable to break out the C-class AMG stuff - as Mercedes does not list the price for such on their website. So in that regard it would be slightly optimistic. If anyone has the information on that lt me know and I can add it.

Porsche being first is not a surprise- at all. I remember reading about a year and a half ago the average household income for an S-Class driver was $257,000 per year (for the Jaguar XJ it was $263,000 per year just thought I would add that) but the Porsche figure (I don't remember the model) was SIGNIFICANTLY larger- between $340,000 - $380,000/yea (I don't exactly remember)


cdokecdoke - 10/11/2007 6:42:27 PM
+2 Boost
As another matter of interest, yes that represents, depending upon the number you use, a 9% error in the data, however, Mercedes is extremely sensitive to this due to their price structure. I would imagine that the error in the others are no more than 3%.


Agent009Agent009 - 10/12/2007 8:54:04 AM
+4 Boost
I tell you what. You do the calculations and tell me what you got.

Then we all can compare.

Be prepared to allocate a couple of hours for it though, a 30 second "casual observation" just won't cut it.


motomoto - 10/11/2007 6:12:16 PM
0 Boost
I dismiss this analysis based on three immediately obvious holes in the analysis method:

1) Complete data source is not referenced. It must be indicated by region and date. MSRP is not necessarily close to sales price, as dealer incentives and mark-ups vary substantially. This static analysis fails to realize the dramatic sales swings that happen when new models are introduced (a new model of Brand A almost always sells better than a 4-year-old direct competitor from Brand B, often above MSRP). Current exchange rate, too, strongly influences the sales of imported goods.

2) "affluence" is an attribute assigned to a person, not a brand. Only brand whores use wacky analysis to inflate the importance of a the badge on the bonnet.

3) Despite the common misperception here, many buyers are loyal to the dealer, not to the brand. Good dealers treat valued customers to options and services that aren't reflected in the internet-reported pricing.


SpicyMikeySpicyMikey - 10/11/2007 6:51:49 PM
+1 Boost
MSRP is not close to sales price, that's true. But MSRP is the price that's advertised in mags, billboards, etc. Not dealer perc's, accessories, etc.

Base MSRP is the price people mostly see and use to base their "snob appeal" opinion. For what this study is trying to guage, I think it works, and is revealing.



motomoto - 10/12/2007 12:13:05 AM
+1 Boost
Agreed, MSRP is a good way to initially judge what outlay you might have if you purchased a given model.

MSRP is useless when comparing brand image. As Barnham said, "There's a sucker born every minute."


Agent009Agent009 - 10/12/2007 9:20:40 AM
+2 Boost
moto- Provide us with the data we need, and we will do the rest. It is easy to dismiss but hard to accept logical work. So far independent review (above) has stated there is an estimated 3% error rate, which is typical of such analysis.

So you need to determine if you want to get hung up on it not being perfect, or accept the fact that it is 97% correct.




motomoto - 10/12/2007 4:37:08 PM
0 Boost
Agent009,

How about this:

1) replace word "affluence" with "average price paid". Cars can be purchased, but they cannot be affluent.

2) focus on a specific market region or country. this seems to be a US-centric site, so use US data if you must.

3) use annual sales and subtract average rebate from MSRP to report approximate price paid.

4) make special note indicating what models are new and what models are in their last year of production.


Sorry for being a "perfectionist", but yes, I expect a realistic picture from any analysis. 97% correct in my work is failure.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/13/2007 1:36:44 PM
+1 Boost
LOL. Proves to me that BMW owners are less-educated than Audi owners...


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 10/13/2007 1:41:22 PM
-1 Boost
Before you ask. I went to Northwestern.


SpicyMikeySpicyMikey - 10/14/2007 3:27:17 PM
+1 Boost
You just tainted Wharton's image a bit AmazinBimmer


chonneschonnes - 10/13/2007 11:49:53 PM
+1 Boost
Very interesting reading, however, I have 2 questions:

1. Can someone clarify the timetable of this data? Is it calendar year to-date or model year '07?

2. Does the median price of $34,745 for an Acura RSX seem rather high to anyone?


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