2008 BMW M3 vs 2007 Audi RS4

To start off this thread,

I love both cars. The Audi sounds amazing and looks amazing. It's a shame that they will stop production. Now, I have seen the M3 in person before but have not had the opportunity to drive it or ride in it. Now despite the somewhat negative comments about the M3, we all know it will be a fun car to drive, perhaps just not as grippy like the quattro system on the Audi.

It does hurt to see these two compared as I am an all out German fan. Now since the sedan version of the M3 is coming out as well, look for this segment to really heat up. The C63, M3, IS-F and the next RS4 maybe?

Anyways, the engine I love the Audi more than the BMW. One thing though... why is Mercedes/Lexus/Audi taking on the M3's with powerful saloons instead of actual coupes?

My conclusion is, get whichever you like more. Styling is subjective, both have great power, both please the driver in different ways, it's a win win situation imo.

I agree- and there will be an RS5 coupe, don't worry...

i would pick the M3. even though i love the Rs4. the bmw
is probably a better car all around on the track which i do but if you dont like the track the Rs4 will do just fine.

I am a BMW fan but the fact is that both cars are phenomenal.I would choose the BMW simply because I have always been a fan.

adamsaf723

Fun=400HP+RWD on the other hand I think the E90 M3 is ugly compared to the E46

I like em both, but isnt this kinda irrelevant considering that when the new M3 comes out in America, the RS4 will have already stopped production.

So in other words, you cant choose between the two.

why? are you mentally ill?

"So in other words you cant choose between the two"

I meant purchase you idiot.

Someone clarify when the RS4 stops production.

RS4 will stop production late this winter, with stock remaining for a few months after. But the next one should start sometime after that, will see how far away will it be. BUT the RS5 should be out sometimes next year, so many the competition for the M3 will stay out for you guys to buy it. If you want to ...

Audi will actually stop production of the RS4 next month, which is depressing. It has turned out to be one of the most significant cars in their history. I may just have to get my hands on one... but if not, I'm crossing my fingers for the B8 to be better (I hope it doesn't get E92 M3 syndrome).

Audi really should of thought ahead on this one, If I remember correctly, the RS6 had a very short shelf life as well....big mistake. They dont give their cars a chance to make an long enough impression.

And S4, I know you love Audi, but until youve driven the new M3 E92, I wouldnt call the way it performs a syndrome. If you remember, when the E46 M3 came out, it was the same old story.....too civilized, softer, not as hardcore etc.

Yes, I know that, but unlike BMW, Audi may be able to keep the current RS4's hooliganism integrated in the car.

Actually, was the E46 really considered less fun than the E36 when it came out? I remember it being the opposite... the E46 was easier to own AND more fun to drive. I just don't think the same can be said about the E92.

The B8 RS4, which (I hope!) will come out some time late next year in Europe, and shortly after in the US. It is rumored to have a 450hp version of the same V8, and I can only hope that it handles as well as or better than the current model... it is one of my favorite cars ever.

the B8 RS4 should have the same V8 with two turbos, a bit more hp, more torque and better fuel economy

where are those two BMW superfans?

From all the reviews (mainly UK car magazines), the two are pretty much at par. Neither car can run away from the other both in straight line acceleration or on the track / mountain roads. BMW seems to have the edge in driver's response, overall feel. And it should since it is a much newer car (like what Chip said).

But I think BMW missed the mark because it is unable to leapfrog the competition. Just why can't it come up with at least a few more horses to match the RS4?

It takes years for BMW to develop a car that can barely (which is also debatable) beat the RS4.

I think thats more of a testament to how far Audi has come rather than BMW's failure to produce an excellent sports car.

I agree. I have overstated my opinion--the M3 is not a "disappointment," LOL. It's just not the far-and-away class-leader that it once was.

When comparing them in the dry, they are even, although the video clearly showed that Audi was the better driver (gearbox, steering). In foul weather, Audi would run away from the M3 as if it was standing still.

The dilemma with BMW is that they've exhausted their technology. RWD has a limit and BMW has reached it (at least for that proce level). There's not much they can do to improve the RWD layout. On the other hand Audi can still improve quattro by leaps and bounds (weight reduction/distribution, torque vectoring). The new S4 should be mroe than enough competition for the M3 and the new RS4 will be waaay ahead of anything in the 3 series class. What BMW can't make up in driving they will try to make up in engine horsepower (335i) and weight reduction (a fiberglass roof?!?!).

Stupid fiberglass roof is only a 14lbs=7kg reduction. It's easier and cheaper to take off a few pounds from the driver, since 60% of US is overweight. And healthier too .. for the driver again.

Audi will officially stop production of the glorious RS4 by the end of this year. I beleive actually by the end of November.

Audi will not leave a whole in their lineup for long. Audi has already confirmed an Audi RS5 is on the way which is likely going to sport a 450 horsepower twin turbo V8 setup. Essentially it will be the RS4's NA V8 with two small turbos to increase horsepower by a little bit to 450. However, the most interesting story is the torque. The two turbos are reported to be putting out 500 lb.ft of torque in the RS5.

Now that is some incredible speed considering the RS4 has only 420 horsepower just at the current M3, but the RS5 will have a lot more torque.

"Audi has already confirmed an Audi RS5 is on the way which is likely going to sport a 450 horsepower twin turbo V8 setup."

No, it will be naturally aspirated. Would it make much sense for Audi to twin-turbocharge it, only to add 30hp to the current engine??? Turbos will be reserved for the RS6, I believe. The only reason it would make sense would be for the torque increase... but I'd rather have a high-revving engine like the current model's than a ton more torque, because it already has enough torque for me! Would the six-speed be able to handle 500lb ft? I think not.

The Audi is an achievement in its own right...but I'm not impressed that it "beats" the BMW M3 simply for the fact that it needs 4 wheels and a more powerful engine to do it. This to me is a testament of the capabilities of the M3. It's kinda like an athlete that needs to take performance enhancing drugs to come out ahead. You wanna compare cars...then compare it to a Mistu Evo that has less HP and comes very close to the performance of an RS4 for way less money.

I'am afraid I don't follow your logic. The M3 has 414 bhp, while the RS4 has 420 - an immaterial difference. And I don't see why it is unfair to compare a RWD car with an AWD car.

Especially because the RWD car will beat the AWD car on a dry track and in the twisties. Where's the RS4's advantage?

You are also forgetting one HUGE thing, Need4Speed. That's weight distribution. The quattro GmbH engineers had to work around the B7 platform's overweight front-end. And in similar fashion to what Porsche has achieved with the 911's undesirable configuration, it has come out to be one of the most impressive sporting vehicles in history. The BMW engineers got a 50/50 weight bias and perfect handling as a basis in comparison.

The RS4 was the first Audi that actually handled like a BMW. Previous S/RS cars had plenty of grip but were to nose heavy. A typical Audi thing. Even the last S5 still has it. Just to make room for the RS5.

I think that's the video that the article links to.......

I like both cars, but with 10 months of rain in Vancouver Quattro is very useful here.

Need4Speed...I completely agree with you - the Audi needs quattro and a larger engine to compete with the M3.

yep, the Audi engine is a whopping 4% bigger, yet it makes 7.5% more torque.

I think it's a little sad that "Racing Heritage" was put as a reason to buy the M3.

Safety regulations make cars heavier, a true shame! weight ruins everything.

As for that heritage argument... I find it silly. Most peole DON'T KNOW anything about BMW's past. They probably don't care. but it's an argument for sure...

pathetic.

Plus Audi has atleast as much heritage as BMW.

Yeah, but they didn't have to grasp for straws on the RS4's "reasons to buy" list.

'Racing heritage' is another name for 'brand name cachet.' BMW's still strike a strong chord among most consumers. Audi is still working on it.

I'm not even going to get into that. I don't buy a car because of what other people think of it.

And you think Audi doesn't have as great of a racing heritage as BMW??? It does... and then some.

I'll take one of each ;)

I drove both (RS4 in all forms) and my choice is the M3. It's a totally different animal than the RS4. And the key reason is AWD. I don't like it. Yes I know it's the most efficient to go around a corner but I feel the quattro system doesn't give the same fun as RWD in the BMW. However, there are AWD systems that allow you to have plenty of fun (like in the 997 Turbo or R8) because they send almost all the power the rear wheels. But honestly they'r both great cars, but the BMW still has the edge handling-wise, performance-wise (it is quicker), engineering-wise and also I prefer the overall feel of the M3. It just feels better in your hand. But I can perfectly imagine a person would say the opposite about the RS4. It's just a matter of taste.

But there is one thing the M3 clearly has over the RS4 and that is the engine. It's just in a class of it's own. Sure the RS4 is a great engine but comparing it to the 8400RPM race monster in the M3 is just pointless. The Audi has less urge to rev, is less willing and above all isn't that smooth. At high revs it feels a bit forced, a bit pushed.. however I do like the way it sounds! But not with the stock exhaust, which has silly valves to pass EU-sound regulations..

Anyhow, I could go on and rant about how much the M3 is a better car than the also brilliant RS4.. pff

An M3 for me with Racing Dynamics exhaust, a BMW Individual interior and some nice wheels. I'll probably change the brakes too.

Sorry but MSN hasn't convinced me. I've read more than a couple of higher respected auto-publications than MSN who share opposite opinions.

To sell more models & outsell the competition, refining the M3 was the only smart move. Purists will always have the CSL. While the M3 may be lacking the steering feedback of the RS4, it sure as hell isn't lacking the Audi’s heavier understeer.

The E46 was released to the same flurry of negative & positive reviews as the new M3, but do those reviews share any relevance to the car we grew to know & love? Right...didn't think so.

exactly as a matter of fact each model of M3, after the first M3 has been criticized for the same thing, its lost its way, its not as good as the last one, no matter how much of a better overall car each generation of the M3 was over the last one, and ironically when the next generation M3 is released there will be the exact same complaints, and that the last generation M3 was so much better than this one. Everyone praised the e46 M3, but when it was FIRST released mags, trashed its much softer, less sharp edge drive over the last model, now all of sudden the e46 was the benchmark, and this one is to soft? they said the same about the e46 3 series as well. It proves that the M3 has never been to BMW, what the mags, and people on here think it should be. Yet every iteration seems to serve as a benchmark for those same naysayers... big contradiction, it goes to show the consumer is the best judge of a car not some mag or wishful enthusiast.

Look people! Both are great(from what I have heard since I haven't driven them but hopefully I will in a month). The only problem I see is when you would like to buy one of these! I belieave it would be a nerve-wrecking decision to choose between RS4 and M3.

everyone in there early years wanted an M3, and still do

I still do, too... but not this one. I'd rather have an E46 CSL.

Same here S4. The CSL is more hardcore, more pure BMW, just more of a driver's car than the new M3. And I am still a HUUUUUGE fan of that BMW straight-six engine. In terms of smoothness, pretty much nothing can beat it apart from some V12s and boxer engines..

MunichRob, the E46 M3 has received incredible praise for its sharp steering, handling, slick gearbox and just raw driver appeal. Sure, the E46 may have received similar negative praise upon its release, but that car soon turned the corner on the reviews and it was all positive after the first few reviews.

I don't see incredibly positive reviews regarding the new M3 as a whole, (steering, handling, interior, power, acceleration, engine design, braking)

Yes, most of these areas will receive praise, but some areas such as braking and steering, I feel will always be a bit of a letdown in the reviews.

The Audi RS4 is an amazing car that set a standard to which the M3 has matched, but not exceeded in the minds of many of the most trusted auto-enthusiast car magazines and publications.

The next RS4 (B8) will surely be a MUCH better handler than the current RS4. Here is why

The B8 platform has already been marveled over for its hugely improved handling over the B7 platform by at least 4 publications/reviews. THe RS4 is based on the B7 platform.

If Audi can take the B7 platform and use its nose-heaviness to create a marvelous RS4, the next RS4 (B8) will be a much better handler given the fact that its platform (MLP) has already been heralded in every single review for offering hugely improved steering, feel, handling and poise over the B7 platform.

The same can be said for the RS5 which will also be on the B8 MLP platform.

GermanNut I beg to differ that the next generation RS4 will be a "MUCH better handler" than the current athlete found in the RS4. You can't really get much better than the RS4, which is why BMW didn't come out & put the RS4 down like many thought it would.

Sure an RS4 off the B8 platform will most likely perform better, but most reviews done on the S5 have concluded it's more of a road rocket than a dance partner.

We've already seen the M3 post RS4 like numbers in wet weather. The M3 doesn't have the body roll or understeer the RS4 does; therefore it's the more capable vehicle. It really all just boils down to which car the consumer would find more fulfilling to drive for themselves.

MunichRob, I completely agree, except for what you said about the S5... the engineers were not happy with what Audi wanted to do with it--they say the platform has a ton more potential. They kept the B8 S4/S5 like the last-gen models (maybe a bit better) for a reason... to make room for the RS4/RS5.

"but most reviews done on the S5 have concluded it's more of a road rocket than a dance partner."

You're right here. But Audi engineers did it on purpose. They made the S5 very good but still a bit nose heavy (typical for Audi). I read it in Top Gear magazine.

Why? To distance the S5 from the real thing: the RS5.

I read that too Sevor.

Audi made the engineers dial in the traditional Audi handling in the A5, when it could have been sportier.

LOL, you guys completely overlooked the fact that I made the same comment...

Anything you can say I can say better :)

Or I just didn't read your post.

Lol -> whatever that means.

Both cars are incredible no doubt. But what amazes me though, ia what Audi was able to achieve on a chassis that is...... 5 years old!!!!
Yes, there was a redesign in the car 2 years ago, but the chassis itself is 5 years old.
When the new RS4/ RS5 come out on the B8 chassis it will be incredible!

Audi set up the bar way high with the RS4 and the M3 was only able to... match it... I'm surprised.
I really thought BMW would come all out with this car, but I'm a little disapointed. Either this or Audi really made a vehicle that is incredible.
I drove one again last week and forgot how fast this car is.
Just drove the new S5 as well.... the RS4 engine in the S5 chassis..... wow. that will be something!

MunichRob, you fail to see Audi's approach to their "S" and "RS" cars.

Sure, the S5 maybe seen as a road rocket rather than the dance partner RS4. The S4 is also seen as more of a roadrocket than the dance partner RS4.

Audi doesn't use their full performance approach when designing their "S" badged cars such as the S4, S5, S6, S8. Audi reserves their full-blown performance with no comprise for their RS lineup.

The RS4 in B8 form is certainly going to be a MUCH better handler than the current B7 based RS4. You again fail to see how Audi will greatly improve the handling of the B8 RS4.

The B8 platform MLP has already been praised by at least 4 and if not more reviews for its vastly improved handling over the B7 platform. The handling, steering, balance and feel are much more direct than the B7 RS4.

MunichRob, its not that Audi can't improve on the B7 platform. They can and they obviously have already.

BMW didn't topple the RS4 because they weren't aiming to create a raw driver-oriented M3 like the E46. BMW wanted to expand the appeal of the M3 and therefore made it less raw and driver-oriented than the E46 model. That is why BMW failed to defeat the RS4.

Do you honestly think the engineers who created the E46 M3 couldn't have one-upped the RS4? Sure they could have. They just decided to expand the appeal of the M3 by making it less hard-edged and ended up ruining an icon.

Look for the next RS4 to greatly improve on the current RS4's handling, which is already excellent.

Germannut, I like how you obnoxiously rant about Audi every time theres and article about them.Its definitely not getting old. ha.

i guarantee you, reviews and tests in 6-12 months time are gona hail the new M3. we will see

I am a little bit disappointed in the M3 reviews of late. I am a BMW fanatic to the core. Hopefully the thing will be tweaked and adjusted before production starts, i don't see why they shouldn't. RS4 is a great car, it's looks are still amazing and it's hard to imagine BMW not doing so.
I believe the M3 formula should not have been diluted in this version simply for the sake of making it "more accessible" or "more of a everyday driver's car." The amazing 335 coupe and sedan already accomplish that, the M should put performance first above anything else. IMO.

I just hope that when the B8-based RS4 comes out in a year or so, Audi opts for lots of headroom and legroom. I loved the B7-based RS4 but I couldn't fit in it.

Nice review, didnt really say much, but if you like this get this if you like that get that. I would get the M3 its still the better drivers car. I think with the e92 series BMW plans on making the CSL more main stream, by producing more. They are using the M3 kinda like the S4(more user friendly after all BMW plans on selling 100k + M3's), but the thing is the M3 matches the RS4 and that leaves the CSL somewhere beyond Audi's range.Yes the new RS4 will have more power...but weight will be around the same.The CSL will be considerably lighter,and power will be around 440ish euro scale.The BMW 3 series top model(CSL) will then be significantly better than the A4 top model RS4. So in the end I think things will come full circle in BMW's favor.

You can't forget the possibility of the RS4 Plus. Remember the RS6 Plus?

I read in some magazines that the next generation RS4 will not use a TT V8, i read that it will share the V10 with the R8 with a Power output around the 500 HP!!! This option seams to be more reasonable since it cut costs in development and it will make a hell of a sports sedan!!!

I think this kind of competition is great, I love the drive of BMW's but would love to have more choice or an alternative to choose from when looking at a new car. No doubt both cars are great drivers cars and this segment is heating up more than ever now with this kind of competition.

The e46 was also criticised when it came out first also though, and the issues it was criticised for seem to have been resolved in the e92. Such as brake fade and a jittery ride on broken surfaces. The only real issue seems to be the slightly vague steering feel on centre, no doubt BMW have been keeping a keen eye on reviews and will make a note of this and improve it.

I would spend a few more dollars and purchase Jaguar's amazing new XKR instead, better looking than all of them and a real head turner: )

Wouldn't "better-looking" and "head turner" be the same thing?

And what do you mean by a "few more dollars"? These cars offer better performance than the XKR for $30K less. They're in completely different segments.

You amaze me more and more with your knowledge! It seems like you are reinventing history! What a pitty! Learn some history kid! You just might not get negative mark again at history lessons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59WHOY7wc1M

AmazinBimmer, the BMW M3 consistently better than the RS4? Not based on magazines tests.....you keep getting funnier and funnier with your BMW comments.

auto union, cool a clip from an audi site...BMW has won more championships against stiffer comp that audi has.fact.

cs4444 :
Audi has been wining because they have invented new technologies or used improved some technologies that were never proven to work in specific category (quattro, first mid- mounted engine, TDI, FSI...) . Their competition was also stiff but it was demolished because Audi was too good. And as I have already stated not many companies can match Audis racing heritage! And quattro, TDI, golden era of silver arrows are very well known today. It's not about quantity It's about quality.

"Audi has been wining because they have invented new technologies or used improved some technologies that were never proven to work in specific category"

Oh, so thats why they win.

"Their competition was also stiff but it was demolished because Audi was too good. And as I have already stated not many companies can match Audis racing heritage!"

And since you stated it, it must be true, interesting.

If you were referring to le mans with them demolishing the comp that is hardly the case. Yes it may look nice in the record books. 1999 le mans was "the race of the century". It was the last le mans where almost all the prototype teams were full factory efforts, toyota, Merc, Nissan, Audi, BMW. That is stiff competition, Audi lost. After 1999 all the manufactures drew out to focus on there Formula one efforts (nissan=renault). Audi stayed behind,,,and OMG they won! Because they have been racing privateer teams that have a fraction of the money, the Full factory effort Audi has to spend... that is some hard fought motor sport heritage my friend. lol.

cs4444 :
"Oh, so thats why they win."
You know very well that.

"And since you stated it, it must be true, interesting."
You are only refering to one race in your post. What about the rest! For example quattro was banned in touring championship because it was too damn good! Also R10 is being!

"You are only refering to one race in your post. What about the rest! For example quattro was banned in touring championship because it was too damn good! Also R10 is being!"

of course they got banned for having awd, everyone else had rwd or rwd. It wasnt fair. If anyone had awd they would have got banned. That shouldn't be a point of pride.

And i used that one race as an example b/c that was arguably the pinnacle of le mans. Audi has been pretty much racing privateer teams in le mans for 7 years, it would be embarrassing if they didn't win. Its like a pro sports team playing a high school team.

"You are only refering to one race in your post. What about the rest! For example quattro was banned in touring championship because it was too damn good! Also R10 is being!"

of course they got banned for having awd, everyone else had rwd or rwd. It wasnt fair. If anyone had awd they would have got banned. That shouldn't be a point of pride.

And i used that one race as an example b/c that was arguably the pinnacle of le mans. Audi has been pretty much racing privateer teams in le mans for 7 years, it would be embarrassing if they didn't win. Its like a pro sports team playing a high school team.

cs4444 :
"of course they got banned for having awd, everyone else had rwd or rwd. It wasnt fair. If anyone had awd they would have got banned. That shouldn't be a point of pride."
Let me put it this way! They had balls to do what nobody else would even dream of! Just remmember how AWD was laughed at because it was to heavy and that it could never win(same with some other things)! And that is Audis principle! To show everyone that anything is possible!

"And i used that one race as an example b/c that was arguably the pinnacle of le mans. Audi has been pretty much racing privateer teams in le mans for 7 years, it would be embarrassing if they didn't win. Its like a pro sports team playing a high school team. "
Ok then. Tell me another example?

well.. i would but thats pretty much all of audis racing history, what i said and what you said. so yeah...

Im done talking about this. your not even making sense anymore.

amazinBimmer - my favorite blithering idiot - welcome back, man! I hadn't seen a thread from you in ages. I thought this was because your doctors had finally found the right Stelazine dosage for you, but apparently not!

Come back to earth for a moment, old boy, and consider the fact that Audi has won six of the last seven Le Mans Grand Prix d'Endurance. And the winner of that seventh Le Mans was won by a Bentley equipped with an Audi engine! (By the way, BMW has won only once at Le Mans in its entire history.) Also consider the fact that Grand Prix racing from 1934 through 1939 was dominated by Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union, Audi's predecessor.

Denial is not a river in Africa, amazinBimmer! I hope you get better soon.

cs4444:
"well.. i would but thats pretty much all of audis racing history, what i said and what you said. so yeah...

Im done talking about this. your not even making sense anymore."

You don't know anything about Audi. I asked you to tell me another example and ofcorse you ran out of arguments by telling me this BS! And you are telling me that I make no sense by telling you some hystorical facts! Again your argument was dumb! Learn something before you post crap! GROW UP KIDO!

Audi typically waits for what BMW has to offer, then tries to 'out-do' BMW. Next RS4 will prolly have 450-460HP. Gotta luv the HP wars!!!

isnt that what BMW did here with the new M3.

Audi waits for BMWs figures and then one-ups BMW in horsepower. It has always been the case.


The E39 BMW M5 had 400 horsepower. Then came Audi's RS6 with 450 hp.

The E46 BMW M3 had 333 horsepower. Then came Audi's RS4 with 420. BMW has now matched the 420 horsepower figure of the RS4.

The E90 BMW M5 has 500 horsepower. Audi has just launched the RS6 with 580 horsepower and a lot more torque than the M5 as well.

Except....instead of just trumping BMW in the horsepower race, Audi has started to make their cars as fun and if not more fun to drive.

Just look at the 4 times the Audi RS4 has defeated the new V8 BMW M3 and it has only lost twice to the new M3 when it could not even manage to defeat the old 333 horsepower E46 version even once.

The R8 is defeating Porsche 911s left and right. Actually 9 times in total to be exact versus 3 losses.

The A8 has been routinely walking over the BMW 7-series and I look for the A7 to consistently defeat the BMW 6-series.

"Except....instead of just trumping BMW in the horsepower race, Audi has started to make their cars as fun and if not more fun to drive."

not exactly germannut, they made 1 car with good "steering feel",RS4, and 1 with good handling,R8. Every other audi is below BMW dynamically.

Also the only reason Audi can remotely compete with BMW is because audi shares parts with VW group, buy a lambo has vw/audi pieces all over...not good for lambo image. Buy an audi has vw pieces all over, the A4 and A6 chassis are vw designed. They are jetta and passat chassis. Audi will of course never admit it, for image reasons, but the fact is they do share more than you think, thats just how corporations work, they would be dumb if they didnt. If you look on certain parts on an audi chassis you can see VW bar codes. Since they save money on development they are able to make decent quality cars.
When you buy a BMW you get a BMW all the parts are developed by BMW, engines, chassis, suspension, all BMW exterior and interior designs are different too. Not like audi who uses the same cookie cuter styling.

Its so obvious that Audi and VW share everything. Even though the Audi fanboys will never admit it. Its almost comparable to Lexus/Toyota.

"not exactly germannut, they made 1 car with good "steering feel",RS4, and 1 with good handling,R8. Every other audi is below BMW dynamically."

Has it occurred to you that those are two of some of their newest cars on the market? That they signal something much larger to come? The S5, for some reason, was restricted, and the higher-ups didn't want it to handle well so that it could leave room for the RS5. While I understand the reasoning, they can't afford to do that with every one of their model lines. They need to perfect every new car for all it's worth. But anyway, ALL of their new cars will be excellent handlers.

"Also the only reason Audi can remotely compete with BMW is because audi shares parts with VW group, buy a lambo has vw/audi pieces all over...not good for lambo image."

Okay, let's think... there are 3 Audis based on VWs, and only one of them has a basically unchanged VW platform, the A3. The Q7 and TT also share platforms with the Touareg and Golf/Rabbit, but their structures are so drastically changed that you wouldn't be able to notice any similarities in how the cars drive.

And the Lambos? Well, they had CRAP before on the inside. I think Audi parts are better than crap... nobody buys those cars for their interiors. However, they are noted as being some of the most luxurious supercars on Earth, thanks to Audi.

"the A4 and A6 chassis are vw designed. They are jetta and passat chassis. Audi will of course never admit it, for image reasons, but the fact is they do share more than you think, thats just how corporations work, they would be dumb if they didnt."

Actually, they're really NOT. The A4 and A6 have nothing to do with VW. Not the Jetta, not the Passat, nothing. Believe me, I know a lot more than you, because you're obviously an idiot. And what would they gain by not "admitting" something? They have nothing to hide! As for parts-sharing... if you yourself are admitting it's smart, then why are you bashing them for it???

"When you buy a BMW you get a BMW all the parts are developed by BMW, engines, chassis, suspension, all BMW exterior and interior designs are different too. Not like audi who uses the same cookie cuter styling. "

I'm not even going to reply to this, it's so deeply flawed.

Then why has BMW developed engines with Peugeot or better yet wants to somehow unite with MB! And Audi also shares parts with Porsche( Porsche also uses VW parts) but I do not hear anyone saying that Porsche is a rebadged VW. Just admit that you don't like a particular brand because that's the way you think!

auto union,the BM /Peugeot engine was for the mini. Ever company shares a little. I was just making a point that most of audis line is shared with someone else, thats why they are able to compete with BMW. I have nothing against audi. I was just proving a point, its not my fault the Audi fan boys got all defensive. And the BMW, Merc partnership will never happen, a merc executive said "it would be a match made in heaven" thats all that was said. BMW wants to say independent.

carE10 :
Read this:
"PSA and BMW responded to reports that its engine alliance had split last week by asserting that the deal is actually as strong as ever, and growing. The deal will expand to produce 1 million engines for BMW and PSA in 2009; recent reports even suggest that Daimler could buy its way into it, in search of cheaper-to-produce engines for its small cars.

The BMW Group and PSA Peugeot-Citroen agreed to work together to develop and manufacture small-capacity petrol engines in 2002. The 1.4- and 1.6-litre petrol engines that resulted are currently used in Mini, Peugeot and Citroen models, and will go on to be included in the BMW 1-series next year.

Annual production figures currently stand at 640,000 units, but the 1 million mark should be achieved in 2009.

Further to that, Daimler AG could become the third car-maker to join the engine venture, if reports in the German press are to be believed. PSA boss Christian Streiff has already gone on record with his view that Daimler should be brought into the deal; in a report in Handelsblatt last week, BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer confirmed that its domestic rival has shown interest in being included in the engine development deal.

"A third partner would bring improved synergies," said Reithofer. "Daimler is interested, and the door is open."

The report has fuelled speculation in Germany of further collaborations between the BMW Group and Daimler AG; many expect the companies to join forces on the development of new small cars in the near future."

And even though it is not stated in above article I think BMW and PSA worked together on a diesel engine.

The developing costs are just too high these days. If you want to stay competitive you must join forces. Belieave me BMW will do it too! Sooner or later!

Oh and you forgot to reply me how the hell is Audi a "VW" when it also shares parts with Porsche. Fact is Audi, Porsche and VW are very connected and that's not a bad thing(actually it is for competition).

i know they share with porsche also, but not on the scale they do with VW. First I never said it was a bad thing to if you read my posts, the point was that is why audi can compete with bmw b/c of mass sharing.Second off there is alot of coulds,possibles,and reporteds, in that article you posted,none of that is definite at all, and if it does happen its mainly for the mini brand, and an 4 cylinder engine for the 1 series, big whoop. BMW does colaberate with other manufactures...but not on the scale of audi where pretty much entire vehicles are shared. not that its a bad thing..

"Second off there is alot of coulds,possibles,and reporteds, in that article you posted,none of that is definite at all, and if it does happen its mainly for the mini brand, and an 4 cylinder engine for the 1 series, big whoop. BMW does colaberate with other manufactures...but not on the scale of audi where pretty much entire vehicles are shared."

I have already explained this in a post above. And Audi does not share all components with VW. Only few!!
But atleast you are not blind as others!

This is a BMW fanboy love fest. All of the Audi posts have been de-boosted, while the opposite is true of BMW-favored posts, even for idiots like amazinBimmer. I'm outta here. Some people just can't face the truth.

burnt much?

u get deboosted cause your totally biased towards audi. you mention it in every post, even if they topic was about a kia mentor. 'audi this , audi that'.
chill dude.

Are somebody's feelings hurt?

"Actually, they're really NOT. The A4 and A6 have nothing to do with VW. Not the Jetta, not the Passat, nothing. Believe me, I know a lot more than you, because you're obviously an idiot. And what would they gain by not "admitting" something? They have nothing to hide! As for parts-sharing... if you yourself are admitting it's smart, then why are you bashing them for it???"

What make you think you know more??ignorance??The fact you never stop taking about them? Look at the A4 and A6 body dimensions a they are within inches if not less than the Jetta and Passat. The only diff is the Audi wheelbases are around 3 inches longer.


"And the Lambos? Well, they had CRAP before on the inside. I think Audi parts are better than crap... nobody buys those cars for their interiors. However, they are noted as being some of the most luxurious supercars on Earth, thanks to Audi."

Are you serious.Well when you pay 200K+ for a car you dont really want interior pieces that you can get on a 40K car.

"if you yourself are admitting it's smart, then why are you bashing them for it???"

Im not bashing im just tiered of the Audi fanboys obsessively ranting about audi. It gets old real quick.

"When you buy a BMW you get a BMW all the parts are developed by BMW, engines, chassis, suspension, all BMW exterior and interior designs are different too. Not like audi who uses the same cookie cuter styling. "

I'm not even going to reply to this, it's so deeply flawed.

whats flawed with that??
truth hurts.

Yeah S4 said it, a "Bimmer lovefest" which I'm happy to not be apart of. For the record BMW's my favorite auto-maker, but due to some miracle myself & maybe a few other Bimmer boys, realize that it's not impossible for their direct competition to edge them out from time-time.

Like who the hells agreeing with anything 'amazingbimmer' has to say? Oh I forgot, blind fan-boys that give BMW enthusiasts a bad name...Grow-up kids.

Munichrob, "realize that it's not impossible for their direct competition to edge them out from time-time."

no one said,or was debating that buddy?

Okay, now I'm back, you asked for it.

"What make you think you know more??ignorance??The fact you never stop taking about them? Look at the A4 and A6 body dimensions a they are within inches if not less than the Jetta and Passat. The only diff is the Audi wheelbases are around 3 inches longer. "

And so, because their sizes are similar, that definitively means they're based on each other? Look, I'm not "obsessively ranting." I'm just telling the truth: the A4 is not on the Jetta platform and the A6 is not on the Passat platform. They're just not. That's it, case closed!

And if you think I can't "admit" flaws in their lineup, you're wrong. I am deeply disappointed with the A6; it may as well be based on the Passat because it's just as boring. I'd take a 5 Series. Strangely enough, though, the S6 and RS6 are incredible. The dynamics are completely different. How did they do that?

And another thing. My A3, which I have as a secondary car (winter), has everything to do with the VW GTI. Engine (2.0T), transmission (DSG), platform. But that can't stop it from being an amazing car. I could've gotten a 325xi or A4 2.0T quattro instead. But the A3 is a sweet little pocket rocket. Lesser platforms don't = lesser vehicles. Look at the Lexus LX; totally a re-badged Toyota LC but it's still awesome.

"Im not bashing im just tiered of the Audi fanboys obsessively ranting about audi. It gets old real quick."

I don't know if you have realized this, but we're not all like GermanNut. Yes, he rants and I'm sick of it, too. He just posts things we all already know. Every camp has their village idiot (amazinBimmer, houstoncutie, etc).

I'm sorry to tell you that I'm not purely focused on Audi. I admit that I absolutely love the RS4 and would take it over the new M3 any day of the week. But what I really want is an Audi and a BMW or Porsche. The Audi being my next winter car (S5, RS4, S6--I'm looking for something nicer), the BMW or Porsche being the convertible (M3, 6 Series, M6, Carrera S). I love some variety. It gives you a clearer sense of the world and the vehicles that fill it. That's also why I'm insisting on buying an X5 4.8i for my wife. That's actually a car of hers that I'd enjoy driving (-; I will post an article on whatever car she gets (probably the X5) by the spring of next year, but probably closer to Jan-Feb.

I'm rambling, and I know that, but I'm just sick of people making assumptions. The only Audis on VW platforms are the A3, TT and Q7. The rest were either purely Audi-developed (and shared with other brands) or they have nothing to do with other cars at all. As for me, I'm not obsessed with any brand. I'd just say that I'm obsessed with cars. When I see a hot car on the street, I want to go out and buy it, no matter what brand it is. And then I'll see another one, and want that one. It just goes on. I hope I end up with SOMETHING.

For the sake that this doesn't go on forever, even thought there are a couple things i could debate.

For the most part I honestly agree with what you said S4, and i have nothing against Audi.

Alright, then. Let's agree to kind of disagree but somewhat agree.

"Some people just can't face the truth."

Judging by Audi's US sales, thats aparently all of us.

CarE10 obviously doesn't realize that the last two high-performance Audis one courtesy of Quattro GmbH (RS4) and one from Audi but built alongside the RS cars in Neckarslum (R8) are phenomenal handlers and offer superb steering.

This sharing parts thing is part of auto industry norms. Rolls-Royce is built on a BMW 7-series chassis. The Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur share Volkswagen Phaeton components for now, but will share Audi A8 components in the future.

Lamborghini dervies its interior from Audi. Audi derived the chassis for the R8 from Lamborghini. Audi derives a few of its plaforms from Volkswagen.

Porsche's Cayenne and the Audi Q7 derive their platform from Volkswagen.

Face it some of the best car companies in the world including Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Lamborghini Audi and Porsche all share chassis, components, parts and whatever else.

CarE10 do you fail to realize that Audi could have gone to any car company to get their interiors considering their cars are nothing short of $165K.

They went to Audi for a reason. They don't hate it when they see parts from a $40K car in their $200K car because those parts from the $40K Audi have the best feel, layout and ergonomic design available.

Audi has created a sales boom for Bentley. Bentley outsells Rolls-Royce by miles and Lamborghini is outselling Ferrari easily.

Look at the Lamborghini Reventon.....the Volkswagen Auto Group has even had production of the Bugatti Veyron.

So you should learn your facts before you say the whole product/chassis/suspension/component and design sharing is flawed because Bugatti, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Porsche, Audi, Volkswagen, Lamborghini, Maybach and many more all share in their design elements

Everything you pretty much said has already been mentioned above, or is commonly known.....so umm....nice..post...

Unfortunately the comparison test done on the ideal conditions, dry surface no rain... I'm keen to know the comparison results whilst rain or snowing, evening where the illuminations (headlight, headlight cleaner, dashboard...) and the wheel drives become important. In the real weather conditions A4 will be much better than BMW3.

Audi RS4 wins against new V8 BMW M3: 4
New V8 BMW M3 wins against Audi RS4: 2

Audi R8 wins against Porsche 911: 9
Porsche 911 wins against Audi R8: 3

I guess these so called morons are systematically defeating BMW and Porsche.

If morons can defeat BMW, that means BMW convention members such as yourself must be blind.

Truth in engineering: For BMW fans it hurts.

yeah thats why BMW engineers the best engines. and no one said the RS4 or R8 were not nice cars.

You just keep repeating the same stuff, i really dont understand you.Its like you don't read anything anyone writes.and you and amazingbeamer are locked into some cosmic idiot battle.

The 2.0T, 4.2 and 5.2 are Audi's strongest engines right now, while the 3.0, 3.0TT and 5.0 are BMW's best. I think diesels from both brands will knock the 4.2 and 3.0 off the list.

audi hasnt wont much awards with any engine really. from what ive read. the last engine catergory they've won was in 1999 2-2.5l engine size with the 2.5-liter V6 TDi. pretty much thats all they've won

Then you probably don't see Ward's Top 10 Engines lists much. BMW and Audi are both on there, basically every year, year after year... sometimes Audi has more wins, sometimes BMW.

Top Ten Engines 2004:

http://www.carlislemediasite.com/content.asp?ArticleID=319

2005:

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/12/10/wards-releases-annual-top-10-engine-list/

2006:

http://www.carbuyersnotebook.com/archives/2005/12/wards_top_ten_e.htm

2007:

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/

---

They both had one engine on the list in 2004, Audi had two in 2005 (BMW had one), Audi had two in 2006 (BMW one again), BMW had two in 2007 and Audi had one. There you go.

http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/

i believe this is official

What is more official about that than Ward's Top Ten? Ward's is more publicized.

cs4444:
Oh and by the way Peugeot and Porsche also participate in Le mans!

I LOVE both cars. I am confused about comparing the two though. BMW has the 3 series and Audi has the A4. Then the next step up is the M3 for BMW and the S4 for Audi (a V8). The next step up would be the BMW M3 CSL vs. Audi RS4. Does this not make sense?

No, it doesn't. The way Audi positions its cars is very different from BMW. The S4/S5 are faster and more expensive than the 335i models, but below the M3, so it's less expensive and slower. The RS4/RS5, on the other hand, are faster and more expensive than the M3 models but less than the CSL version.

It's a big point of confusion, yes, but the RS4 is a much better match for the M3 than the S4, as they both have 414hp V8s and the new M3 will be significantly more expensive, pushing it into RS4 territory.

S4, the 335i coupe/sedan is FASTER than the S4 sedan. FACT. And from what Ive read so far, the S5 and 335i coupe run neck and neck. The 335i BMW is singlehandely destroying the competition and its engine bests cars that cost twice as much.

And in my opinion that 4.2 V8 in the Audi is old old old. I remember my previous boss had a 1997 Audi A8, with, you guessed it, the 4.2 V8. Sure they've extracted some extra ponies and improved efficiency over the years, but its always been the same old boring engine.

You have got to be kidding, right?

If Audi's fantastic 4.2l V-8 is "old", then please, what do you call BMW's fantastic I-6? Or the Corvette's unbelievably good series of V-8s? Or the workhorse I-4s from Honda and Toyota? None of those were newly introduced in the last decade. They have been refined continually over time. And yes, "improved efficiency over the years" is not a little feat. It is everything.

In the real world, it takes a lot of hard work to make incremental improvements. But if you think that ANY engine is "all new" and therefore superior to everything else, we'd love to hear about it.

Oh, and my boss currently drives an M5 and races an M3. Do i get a prize for knowing somebody with good cars?

No but you get a prize for being a total douchebag.