Lexus IS-F Road Test. Are we sure we have the right brand?

"Dedicated BMW fans will likely still turn up their noses, especially those single-mindedly focused on the new M3. But for the rest of us, the IS-F is going to draw some attention, and more than a few buyers. It's got a ways to go before it has everything down to the level of science the Europeans have achieved, but it's a lot more than just brute force jammed under the hood of a Lexus. This is a serious contender that should only get better with each succeeding generation."


the best paragraph yet about the IS-F...

"Dedicated BMW fans will likely still turn up their noses, especially those single-mindedly focused on the new M3"

This sums up the fact that this article as more of an anti-BMW article than it is an accurate representation of what Lexus IS-F is. All the author is doing in this article is make up excuses for the fact that the IS-F is not quite as good as an M3. There are no facts presented in this article, just mambo jumbo poetry about how Lexus is not quite an M3 but in fact is so much more, even if is less. Pathetic Lexus propaganda.

"IS-F is more drivable- a car any driver can enjoy. bmw is more for very skilled drivers"

nicad
Everybody criticised the new BMW M3 for being too much of a daily driver compared with the old one. Since the IS-F hit the market for some reason the new M3 became a race car that is not usable anymore in day to day driving? Do you not see how ridiculous and contradicting this is?
The new M3 is more of a daily driver than any M3 made to date. Just because the IS-F was built for softies doesn't mean that the new M3 is not a perfect daily driver. You say BMW is for skilled drivers...well, why would somebody that is not skilled as a driver would want to drive such fast cars? These cars are built for people WHO CAN DRIVE. Cars like IS350, BMW 335i are fast enough for people who need just a fast daily driver. The M3 and IS-F are purposely built for people who supposedly KNOW how to drive and what more than just a pleasant, pure vanilla type of ride. And the M3 is just the best a REAL driver can ask for...so obviously from an enthusiast perspective(which is the only one that counts in this segment) it WINS.

50% of the people who purchase a BMW M-series or even the AMG/IS-F/RS4 do so because of the presence they have as looked from the outside.

25% will be somewhat knowledgeable drivers with very little "real" driving experience

the last 25% will be the purists who actually know what a machine like mentioned is capable of.

yes, Star, the vehicles are made for those who can actually find its inner heart and put it on the floor.

the majority will have little to no knowledge of what to do or how to drive it as it should if you stuck them in any of the vehicles above on a track.

most who own, just boast they drive an M/RS/AMG and now an F.

it's certainly fast, but it's still ugly....

"The IS-F is attractive enough, though to our eyes, there was a certain lack of refinement to the overall appearance. Some of the performance design features look bolted on, rather than seamlessly integrated, as they typically are in BMW M or Mercedes AMG products."

FIRST COMMENT FROM A LEXUS IS-F POSTING IS ABOUT BASHING GERMAN CAR FANS...

no bashing, it points out that the M3 is the top vehicle in the class, but also states that the Lexus will not fall short of the segment...

the IS-F made its statement and shocked everyone doing so...first it was, it won't have enough power or drive as well, then it went to "those numbers, pfff, fell short of the hp range again", now its "lmao, Lexus will never succeed."

its just becoming more funny everytime...the repsonses are great from the people who can't bare to see a good vehicle come and make things more interesting

I'm going to let somebody else correct Lexus_Admirer.

oh lexus...you'll never get it. get back in your ES and take a nap.

"Let's start off with some of the vital statistics: under the hood, you'll find a 5.0-liter V-8 making an impressive 416 horsepower and 371 lb-ft of torque. That's a full 76 ponies more than the old M3 and two more than the '09 model."

Why doesn't Lexus get an orginal idea?

The twin-turbocharged 3-litre was in development for four years, long before the IS350 came out.

bulldogz, yeah right!

BMW are waiting for Toyota to come out with something so they can copy the design.

lol

The 335i isn't rated at 306hp. That would be the Infiniti G35.

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/335isedan/default

http://www.infiniti.com/g_sedan/specifications.html

And in fact, the 335i's engine is underrated. I don't have a source on hand--but it's pretty obvious. Didn't you buy one for your wife?

I definitely don't remember them releasing it with 306hp. It's always been 300.

EL34,
Could you clarify? I am not quite following you here? Because they put a lot of horsepower in a car? Or the fact that the article compared it to the BMW's output?

Without an explanation, it just sounds like you are bitter. Not slamming you, just asking for clarification...
thanks.

you hit it on the head...he's just bitter.

narrow minded people can't accept competition, they feel it as a threat. its why the redundance of "copying", "heritage", etc. is always mentioned. in every one of these IS-F posts.

many fail tos ee that competiton is what brought these vehicles to where they are, and will only make them better.

kudos to bmw/mb/audi/lexus for increasing the pressure upon each other!

listing r15:

the ISF is bold departure for lexus. it's impressively fast and apparently handles quite well. but it's the brand's first try at a real performance car. compared to the M3 or RS4, the ISF is simply lacking in mechanical refinement/performance. and if lexus is serious, next time they need to get the looks right too...the looks of this car are tacky and it's plain apparent that the ISF was conceived as an afterthought to the regular IS (fake exhausts, weirdly stretched front end, ridiculously tall rear end, etc)

the IS-F is equally as good in performance and handling as its counterparts like you stated, and still its not good enough. what does that say? its a proven performer from the tests it's been thru!

as you stated again this is Lexus' first real attempt at a sports car...and they did a million times better than anyone ever expected them to do. they shot the vehicle out and landed it in the middle of the pack. a failure still i assume? lexus has shocked the german engineers in producing a vehicle that was said they couldnt accomplish...and this is just round one of many more battles to come.

Lexus did perfectly well in this run, and its only going to get better for conusmers when the next genereations fo these vehicles appear.

and fyi, the fake exhausts are indeed real and though they may not attach to the rear fascia, the exhausts are indeed stacked as they appear to be.

actually those exhausts are fake.

the quad stacks are part of the fascia and are in no way attached to the exhaust system. multiple articles have already pointed this out.

some people are actually speculating that those are only on pre production models. when it comes out, they will be attached

enthusiats...

behind the rear fascia, you will find a single entry stacked exhaust,confirmed by Lexus ever since the IS-F was a concept. the polished tips on the fascia do not attach to the stacked exhaust, but it is indeed a stacked dual-exit, fully functional, exhaust system.

"the IS-F is equally as good in performance and handling as its counterparts like you stated, and still its not good enough. what does that say?"

That says one thing. One thing that I've been saying for a few days now.

The IS-F is a great track car, yes. But it is NOT a good everyday driver. THIS is the problem. We all know it performs well- but it can't stand up to the M3, RS4 or C63 AMG if you want to buy it as your primary vehicle. The Germans have perfected the art of balance. Their cars are not only superb tools for track days, but can also transport you on your romp to work in haste and comfort. They smother the left lane with their power, they eat back roads for lunch and they can still take your mother in-law to the theater.

this reviewer is quite adept....he totally gets lexus and realizes what an enormous departure this car is for them. it did take guts for the lexus to go so far outside it's normal market...

"Stereotypes, they say, have their basis in fact. Well, at least in the automobile world, there's some truth to that. Take Lexus, the luxury arm of Toyota , which has a reputation for building beautifully appointed, bulletproof products that seem predestined for the sort of aging, affluent buyers who don't really enjoy driving all that much."

Toyota/Lexus is nowadays hardly bulletproof.

can you honestly believe that the Jaguar is better than the LS, when the previous generation LS was rated higher than the Jag.

please find some sources with credibility and that is unbiased!

for you MidEngine...

5th 745i
5th xj vanden plas
4th s430
3rd phaeton
2nd ls430
1st a8L

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0409_luxury_sedan_comparison


for a vehicle with not much changed, the XJ itself couldnt have impressed the C&D reporters that much in rouhgly 3 yrs.

The XJ in the older test you posted was a Vanden Plas. However, in the 2007 test it was a Super V8, because that is now better-aligned in price and performance with the other cars. It has 100 more horsepower than the VP. That makes quite a difference,

The tail pipes are fake.

Lord have mercy :(

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=7359

more from your C&D reporters

6th s430
5th phaeton
4th a8L
3rd 745i
2nd xj8
1st ls430

Well, how about posting something more recent?

C/D 2007:

5. Lexus LS460L
4. Jaguar Super V8
3. BMW 750Li
2. Audi A8L
1. Mercedes-Benz S550

I would say this matters more than something from four years ago, am I wrong? Because, for some reason, the all-new LS did worse against the XJ, A8 and 7 Series than it did before, even though all three are in the same generations as in the article you posted.

I also remember one, possibly from Motor Trend, fairly clearly:

5. Mercedes-Benz S430 4Matic (tie)
5. VW Phaeton (tie)
3. Jaguar XJ
2. Lexus LS430
1. Audi A8L

Hmm. It seems as if the LS460L has gotten worse. Strange.

No S4,

C&D got more biased, which is not strange in the least. They have to keep selling magazines to people like you who get very touchy about your favorite brands being challenged by, not just other brands, but Toyota/Lexus specifically.

r15mohd, the LS430 is a barge.

Have you ever seen one corner hard?

"C&D got more biased, which is not strange in the least. They have to keep selling magazines to people like you who get very touchy about your favorite brands being challenged by, not just other brands, but Toyota/Lexus specifically."

From your responses on the IS-F, it seems like you are the real one who gets very touchy about your favorite brands, Toyota/Lexus specifically.

Will, you are a human contradiction.

Most of my comments regarding the IS-F have been appraisal for the car not being a complete failure, which is a direct response to all of you who predicted that a few months back. I don't know what it is about my comments in IS-F threads that has "anti-bangle" and "fastonekiller" so upset. I already know "S4's" deal though.

Looking back on every single comparison test the LS460 was in, it LOST for being too smooth and luxurious, there's no need to debate that. It may not be able to take a corner faster than any other car in the class, but it can most certainly take a pothole smoother than any of them. Lexus built a proper LUXURY car and was shunned by the biased media because of it.

"It may not be able to take a corner faster than any other car in the class, but it can most certainly take a pothole smoother than any of them. Lexus built a proper LUXURY car and was shunned by the biased media because of it."

You are absolutely wrong. If this was the case, the LS would have WON every test.

But in fact, all of those cars we mentioned? They're called LUXURY sedans. They may be more fun to drive than the LS- but they're also just as luxurious, if not moreso. The only exception to this rule is the 7 Series; its interior is now cheaper than that of the 5 Series and I don't know why they placed it above the LS, which is superior. But the A8, S-Class and yes, even XJ are all just as comfortable as Lexus's big sedan and can handle with the best of 'em.

IS-F = the car most advertised on Autospies and also the car that is completely ignored by the car enthusiast crowd.

then why are the german car lovers ALWAYS poking their noses into these lexus threads?

how many toyota/lexus fans do you see posting on threads about the german brands? (hint: the majority of us really don't give a s**t about what's up or what's "new" on those FEW threads!)

german sports sedans have been in the lead for quite awhile.

but now, they are all NERVOUSLY LOOKING over their shoulders as a new contender is suddenly riding down their backs!

only a matter of time before the OLD warhorses get bypassed! and only a question of time, how long they can STAY in front. hence, all the insecurity.

"Toyota currently does NOT care what Honda is doing. They are not watching Honda as closely as they are watching GM and Hyundai."

I see, when it comes to Camry's sales figures, Hyundai Sonata is more worrisome to Toyota than the Honda Accord. The Chevy Impala is more worrisome than the Nissan Altima.

"My point is that Lexus created the "F" brand with AMG, M, and RS in the middle of their bullseye, NOT Type-R. That's just a fact. If it's not, someone should send a memo out to Lexus and tell them to stop allowing the media to compare the IS-F to the C63, RS4 and M3, and instead, compare it to Type-R Hondas."

I agree that the "F" is not created to compete directly with Type-R, but with AMG, M, and RS. However, let's get the facts straight, I brought up Type-R and Mugen when you said that Honda has "non-existant performance divisions". What's your definition of performance division anyway?

"And you can stop with the "fanoby" crap, seeing as you are clearly the equivalent of any one of us, just from a Honda preference. We get it. Toyota is not as sporty as any of their competitors, but it has not always been that way, and it is about to change yet again."

Thanks for acknowledging that you're one of these biased and ignorant Toyota fanboy. But don't count me as your equivalent with an Acura preference. I've owned Toyota, Honda/Acura, BMW, and Audi. I love all of the cars that I've owned, including the Toyota.

Aren't you nuts to say that "Toyota has not always been sporty, and it is about to change yet again." Come on, Toyota has always been sporty, especially with cars that they don't export to the US. I fell in love the Toyota Levin AE111 that I once drove when I was in Japan. Too bad cars like this never come to the States. Maybe you don't really know much about Toyota.... or maybe you're a fanboy that's too focus on the products that Toyota offers in the States.

"Your bias can't even seem to acknowledge that there is no Honda or Nissan equivalent to the BMW M3, Mercedes C63 AMG, or the Audi RS4."

Like I said, the IS-F is just released and it's not even on the road yet. Would you guarantee that Acura and Infiniti won't follow suit with their own 400bhp sedans? Do you really think Honda and Nissan don't have the capability to come out with their own 400bhp sedans? To be honest, I'd much rather see Nissan bring over the Nissan GT-R. If Nissan brings over the Skyline GT-R, it'll be much more desired than the IS-F. I'll definitely consider trading in my S2000 for the GT-R.

"as you so bitterly pointed out in the end, and their pursuit of a new, sportier image will only be further enhanced with future products such as the NSX-competitive LF-A."

By then you'll say that the LF-A is aimed at Ferrari and Lamborghini, not the NSX. haha.

"but now, they are all NERVOUSLY LOOKING over their shoulders as a new contender is suddenly riding down their backs!"

I think they are still worrying about each other, sorry. Unlike on AutoSpies, the German three don't have some sort of alliance against Lexus. They have enough competition between each other. The RS4 would not have been created without the M3, but the new M3 would not have a V8 without the S4/RS4. The C63 AMG would not be so devastatingly effective without either of them.

lexus was created for toyota owners moving beyond Cressida/camry. Very simple plan. Most owners of rx/es/ls fit this profile. Is/gs owners are in f model demographic. Believe f line is a response to infiniti more than bmw. Toyota is obsessed with nissan/honda.

Toyota could care less about Nissan or Honda. And explain how F is a response to the non-existant performance divisions from either of those manufacturers?

"Toyota could care less about Nissan or Honda. And explain how F is a response to the non-existant performance divisions from either of those manufacturers?"

Non existent performance division??

Honda/Acura has the Type-R and Type-S lines. Honda also has Mugen tuning its production cars for many years.

How much history does F have? What does F stand for anyway? Fast and Furious??

Speaking of racing success, Honda is considered one of the most sucessful manufacturers in Formula One. How much has Toyota achieved in F1 with the largest budgets all these years?

It's obvious that Honda has much more racing and tuning heritage than Toyota. Only a biased Toyota fanboy would say that Honda has non-existent performance division.

If you want to compare to Nissan. The Nissan Skyline GT-R is highly regarded in Japan, definitely higher than any Toyota models.

"Toyota could care less about Nissan or Honda."

May I nominate this for one of the stupidest comments ever put up?

"May I nominate this for one of the stupidest comments ever put up?"

Most definitely.

It is these ignorant fanboys that really annoy people about Toyota/Lexus. I would say they are more detrimental to the Toyota image than any of Toyota's recent recalls.

Personally, I have nothing against Toyota/Lexus. In fact, I love my 87 Camry which I had when I was in grad school. The most reliable and trouble free vehicle that I've ever had. I'm not surprised to see people being fans of the Toyota brand because of its quality vehicles. But I'm surprised to see such stupid ignorant comments coming from some of these fans.

There really was no need to respond to that statement just to attempt to make yourselves look good to everyone else. If Toyota is worried about anyone, it is GM and Hyundai. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have peacefully co-existed with one another since the 1970s, no? And forgive me for sounding like a 'delusional' fan, but Toyota currently sells more products than Honda and Nissan.

And name a Honda or Nissan compact sedan that directly competes with the IS-F? Type-R and Type-S are NOT performance brands along the lines of AMG, M, RS and F, that statement is not me being a Toyota "fan," it's called a true statement, which clearly some cannot handle.

And give me a break, I like Honda and Nissan way more than most other brands you two worship.

"If Toyota is worried about anyone, it is GM and Hyundai. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have peacefully co-existed with one another since the 1970s, no?... but Toyota currently sells more products than Honda and Nissan."

Your response just shows how ignorant you are about the auto market. Toyota and Honda are bitter rivals, especially in Japan. If Honda and Toyota are not bitter rivals, why on earth would the Japanese Grand Prix split between the Suzuka circuit and Fuji Speedway? They are bitter rivals on every front.

If your dumb comment is true, Audi, BMW, and MB are probably peacefully co-existing too, even if BMW sells the most cars. Go ask any BMW exec if Audi and BM are not their direct competitors.

"If Toyota is worried about anyone, it is GM and Hyundai."

Toyota needs not to worry about GM. It is GM who needs to worry about GM. In the past decade, GM stupidly focused its resources on the high profit SUVs, and left its cars development generations behind the Japanese and European rivals. GM now has to re-badge the Opels and Holdens to stay competitive. Let see how this works out in the long run for GM.

Speaking of performance line, the Type-R name is world renowned. Saying Type-R doesn't belong to performance line while "F" does definitely show how biased and ignorant you are.

If Type-R doesn't ring a bell to you. How about Mugen? Mugen is probably more successful in the racing world than any of the performance lines that you've mentioned. Mugen powered cars had won Formula One races. What history does Lexus "F" have? None. Ok, Mugen is not owned by Honda (though Formed by Hirotoshi Honda), but it offers more tuning for Honda cars than your so-called "F" offers Lexus/Toyota cars. Seriously, not even TRD can compare to Mugen.

"And name a Honda or Nissan compact sedan that directly competes with the IS-F?"

The IS-F is just released, would you guarantee that Acura and Infiniti won't follow suit with their own 400bhp sedans?

You fanboys are making it sound like the IS-F is THE CAR, the ultimate high performance technological showcase from Lexus. Come on.... in terms of high performance technological showcase, Lexus is far behind Honda/Acura. Honda amazed the world with the NSX in 1990. What performance vehicle did Lexus offer back in 1990? ES250? LS400?

"And give me a break, I like Honda and Nissan way more than most other brands you two worship."

I don't know about S4cabriofoxone. But I like Honda/Acura much more than you perceived. So much that I have a S2000 and an Acura MDX parked in my garage.

Oh, so you're simply a disgruntled Honda fanboy, that makes sense.

Toyota, Honda and Nissan are direct competitors, however my comment was regarding Toyota's perspective. Toyota currently does NOT care what Honda is doing. They are not watching Honda as closely as they are watching GM and Hyundai. Even in the media, all the current attention is on the sales face-off between Toyota and GM, not Toyota and Honda, because that sales race has been on forever. If GM can restore quality back into their cars, then things could turn sour for Toyota, seeing as the very reason all three Japanese giants are the giants they are because of GM's slips in quality decades ago. Hyundai for the same reasons concerning quality. Both GM and Hyundai have the potential to produce a very large amount of automobiles. If all of those automobiles are perceived by the public to have reliability and quality on par with Toyota, then not just Toyota, but all three Japanese giants have a problem on their hands.

Also, I did NOT say that the Lexus "F" brand had more pedigree than Type-R or Mugen. My point is that Lexus created the "F" brand with AMG, M, and RS in the middle of their bullseye, NOT Type-R. That's just a fact. If it's not, someone should send a memo out to Lexus and tell them to stop allowing the media to compare the IS-F to the C63, RS4 and M3, and instead, compare it to Type-R Hondas. Type-R does NOT build cars to compete with the German high-performance brands. I mean really, there was no need to blow that out of proportion, but considering your preference is all Honda, it makes sense. This is NOT a Toyota vs. Honda debate. To reiterate, the very purpose of the IS-F was to give the Lexus brand a sportier image, in the same fashion that AMG, RS, and M do for their brands.

And you can stop with the "fanoby" crap, seeing as you are clearly the equivalent of any one of us, just from a Honda preference. We get it. Toyota is not as sporty as any of their competitors, but it has not always been that way, and it is about to change yet again. Your bias can't even seem to acknowledge that there is no Honda or Nissan equivalent to the BMW M3, Mercedes C63 AMG, or the Audi RS4. Well guess what? Lexus DOES have a comparable car, it's called the Lexus IS-F. NOT saying it is "THE CAR" but it is a spectacular contrast to the brand's image, as you so bitterly pointed out in the end, and their pursuit of a new, sportier image will only be further enhanced with future products such as the NSX-competitive LF-A.

will:

"Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have peacefully co-existed with one another since the 1970s, no?"

huh? this is an incredibly naive comments. they're MAJOR competitors. competition is intense. and hondas, toyotas and nissan are hugely cross-shopped. there's nothing 'peaceful' between these companies.

what planet are you on?

"Toyota currently does NOT care what Honda is doing. They are not watching Honda as closely as they are watching GM and Hyundai."

I see, when it comes to Camry's sales figures, Hyundai Sonata is more worrisome to Toyota than the Honda Accord. The Chevy Impala is more worrisome than the Nissan Altima.

"My point is that Lexus created the "F" brand with AMG, M, and RS in the middle of their bullseye, NOT Type-R. That's just a fact. If it's not, someone should send a memo out to Lexus and tell them to stop allowing the media to compare the IS-F to the C63, RS4 and M3, and instead, compare it to Type-R Hondas."

I agree that the "F" is not created to compete directly with Type-R, but with AMG, M, and RS. However, let's get the facts straight, I brought up Type-R and Mugen when you said that Honda has "non-existant performance divisions". What's your definition of performance division anyway?

"And you can stop with the "fanoby" crap, seeing as you are clearly the equivalent of any one of us, just from a Honda preference. We get it. Toyota is not as sporty as any of their competitors, but it has not always been that way, and it is about to change yet again."

Thanks for acknowledging that you're one of these biased and ignorant Toyota fanboy. But don't count me as your equivalent with an Acura preference. I've owned Toyota, Honda/Acura, BMW, and Audi. I love all of the cars that I've owned, including the Toyota.

Aren't you nuts to say that "Toyota has not always been sporty, and it is about to change yet again." Come on, Toyota has always been sporty, especially with cars that they don't export to the US. I fell in love the Toyota Levin AE111 that I once drove when I was in Japan. Too bad cars like this never come to the States. Maybe you don't really know much about Toyota.... or maybe you're a fanboy that's too focus on the products that Toyota offers in the States.

"Your bias can't even seem to acknowledge that there is no Honda or Nissan equivalent to the BMW M3, Mercedes C63 AMG, or the Audi RS4."

Like I said, the IS-F is just released and it's not even on the road yet. Would you guarantee that Acura and Infiniti won't follow suit with their own 400bhp sedans? Do you really think Honda and Nissan don't have the capability to come out with their own 400bhp sedans? To be honest, I'd much rather see Nissan bring over the Nissan GT-R. If Nissan brings over the Skyline GT-R, it'll be much more desired than the IS-F. I'll definitely consider trading in my S2000 for the GT-R.

"as you so bitterly pointed out in the end, and their pursuit of a new, sportier image will only be further enhanced with future products such as the NSX-competitive LF-A."

By then you'll say that the LF-A is aimed at Ferrari and Lamborghini, not the NSX. haha.

What is wrong with you people?

The Camry doesn't have to worry about the Accord, Altima, Impala OR Sonata! TOYOTA has to worry about HONDA, NISSAN, GM and HYUNDAI. But TOYOTA, HONDA and NISSAN have co-existed in naturally competitive markets for a long time now. Toyota vs. Honda vs. Nissan is not newsworthy anymore AS MUCH AS Toyota vs. GM vs. Hyundai. People have always cross-shopped the Camry, Altima and Accord. Competition among the three has always been there and will always be there, regardless of any other factors. Toyota already knows how to handle competition from Honda and Nissan. But Toyota is a global corporation, which means they look at all fronts, not just the Japanese ones, and GM and Hyundai are possible NEW threats that they have to keep a close eye on, MORESO than Nissan and Honda now. Mercedes, BMW, and Audi always existed in naturally competitive markets prior to 1989, they already knew each other's game plans and how to play the game. Then Lexus came along...see the parallels yet?

I see you finally got the second point. The topic of discussion HERE is the Lexus IS-F, from the new "F" performance division that Lexus established to compete with the Germans. When I said "non-existant performance divisions, I meant exactly that: Honda and Nissan have not established their own performance divisions to directly take on the Germans like Lexus has done.

Also, forgive me for my North American bias, but Toyota has NOT always had a perception of being sporty. Toyota's image here, in their key most-important market, sees no mention of 'sporty' anywhere in any discussion. I don't know what part of the world you reside in, but North America has not seen an AE86 since the late '80s when Toyota stopped offering them to North American customers. One of Toyota's most sportiest cars ever, perhaps their most sporty ever, the Supra, hasn't been in production since 1992 here in North America. The Celica stopped being sold here in 2005. Regardless, the point is that North America, where I reside, does not currently have a "sporty" image of Toyota. The Camry, Corolla, Highlander, Solara (which will also be discontinued after 2008) are the primary cars that North Americans buy from Toyota, and none of them are considered "sporty."

And yes, Acura and Infiniti could come out with their own 400hp compact sedans, but I doubt it. They wouldn't come out with their own just for the sake of keeping up with Lexus. It is becoming more and more apparent that Honda could care less about putting some effort into the Acura brand. Honda has dropped the ball and completely let it roll under the fence with Acura. Acura and Infiniti can't even get a proper LS fighter to the party, why would they bother with a 400hp compact sedan? The GT-R is highly more desirable than the IS-F, I don't disagree with that. If I had to choose between the two I would definitely go with the GT-R. I've loved the GT-R ever since I saw the R33 on a stay in Japan back in 1996. I

And the LF-A is aimed at Lamborghini and Ferrari. I just mentioned the NSX to maybe get you to understand a little better. As fantastic as the NSX was, why would Lexus aim for a car that's out of production, when there are better products here now, with even better stats? I think what you fundamentally don't want to admit is that Toyota has put more effort into Lexus than Honda has into Acura, and Nissan has into Infiniti. Lexus is going to have a larger worldwide presence, and a sportier image than Acura and Infiniti very soon, moreso than they already do, as they continue to work on making Lexus sportier. Lexus has aimed higher than Acura and Infiniti with their new performance brand aimed at the GERMANS (not Type-R) and I think the sooner you realize that, the better.

"Then Lexus came along...see the parallels yet?"

I doubt anyone here would see it because your statements are filled with contradictions.

"I see you finally got the second point. The topic of discussion HERE is the Lexus IS-F, from the new "F" performance division that Lexus established to compete with the Germans. When I said "non-existant performance divisions, I meant exactly that: Honda and Nissan have not established their own performance divisions to directly take on the Germans like Lexus has done."

Even though Honda Type-R/Mugen and Nissan Nismo are not taking directly on the Germans' M, AMG, and RS, they have always been considered as Honda and Nissan's performance divisions, and they have existed much longer than "F". Calling Type-R/Mugen/Nismo non-existent simply makes no sense to anyone but yourself.

Furthermore, if what you said is true about Honda and Nissan's non-existent performance divisions, Toyota's TRD has also been non-existent all these years.

"Also, forgive me for my North American bias, but Toyota has NOT always had a perception of being sporty. Toyota's image here, in their key most-important market, sees no mention of 'sporty' anywhere in any discussion."

I would forgive your North America bias. But from your IS-F comments, your Toyota bias has gone way out of hand.

"I don't know what part of the world you reside in, but North America has not seen an AE86 since the late '80s when Toyota stopped offering them to North American customers..... and none of them are considered "sporty."

You forgot to mention the MR2. The SW20 (second gen MR2) is one of my all time favorites.

"And yes, Acura and Infiniti could come out with their own 400hp compact sedans, but I doubt it. They wouldn't come out with their own just for the sake of keeping up with Lexus. It is becoming more and more apparent that Honda could care less about putting some effort into the Acura brand. Honda has dropped the ball and completely let it roll under the fence with Acura."

We have yet to see whether it is a wise move for Lexus to build the IS-F to compete with the M, AMG, and RS. We've yet to see the sales figures and the reviews. The M, AMG, and RS have cult followings, and it'll not be easy to convince these folks to switch to the "F". However, I hope the IS-F will do well, which will generate more competitions.

In my opinion, I think it would be much wiser for Acura to focus on the next NSX and for Nissan to bring over the GT-R, instead of following Lexus into the 400hp compact sedan race.

"Acura and Infiniti can't even get a proper LS fighter to the party."

You have to realize that Japan's car manufacturers have the gentlemen's agreement that their domestic production cars wouldn't exceed 280HP. Therefore, if Honda is to build a 400HP RL, it would be spending its R&D money on a car that won't be sold domestically as a Honda. It can, however, sell it as an Acura RL just like how Toyota is selling the Lexus LS as

Please explain which comments I've made on the IS-F have you saying what you are saying? What have I said about the IS-F that has made you so uptight? I have not said anything outlandish about the IS-F. I've made NO claims about it being superior to all the other cars in the class. I've made NO claims about it being the greatest car ever. I challenge you to go back and read through all of them, but I don't think you will, for it's much more easier for you to make that statement and justify in your mind that I'm some off-the-wall Toyota fan.

Also, I did not mean to say that Honda and Nissan don't have performance divisions, okay? What I DID say, was that Acura and Infiniti have not created new high-performance brands to compete with the Germans like Lexus has just done. "F" was not created to compare with Mugen/Type-R/Type-S/Nismo/TRD/etc. Otherwise, Lexus would have just continued to offer L-Tuned Lexus parts and upgrades, instead of going through the trouble to market a whole new performance brand. They made "F" to directly compete alongside the Germans.

The rest of your response I agree with. It would be awesome to have guaranteed North American presence of a new Supra, Celica, AE86, and MR2. And it would be nice if Infiniti and Acura got IS-F AND LS competitors. But where we are now, NONE of that exists yet.

Also,

Toyota, Honda and Nissan are not "hostile rivals" as you all keep claiming in an instance just to contradict me. I mean Toyota DID just hand over their most important technology, Hybrid Synergy Drive, to Nissan for them to use in their Altima (one of Toyota's "biggest headaches"). Toyota is a very friendly company to competing manufacturers, more than most people think, apparently. They even advise their marketing and advertising partners NOT to attack other automakers in their advertising campaigns. Not the actions of a "bitter rival," let alone one of the most cash-rich corporations ever, no?

"I don't know about S4cabriofoxone. But I like Honda/Acura much more than you perceived."

Ah, so do I. Honda is my favorite Japanese brand. Their engineering is nearly perfection. I wouldn't ever see any reason to buy a Toyota over a Honda.

But Acura... that's different. They need to get their $hit together.

i dont' know about the whole IS-F is more driveable and the M3 is for better drivers excuse..."hmm i see you got yourself an IS-F ehh, pretty nice" "yea, the M3 is only for those who can really drive, and because i'm not good enough to handle the M3, i got myself an IS-F (thumbs up)" sounds kinda retarded don't you think?

How awesome is it to see Audi and Mercedes-Benz forming a stronghold on the large luxury sedan market.

Oh well for the big German two....It a trio now.

An Audi A8L that was basically the same car that came out in 2001 except for the larger front grill that is going to be redesigned almost completely in 2010 is finishing in second place behind the then all-new Mercedes-Benz S-class.

This makes me wonder, is Audi going to finally overthrow the Benz S-class as the best luxury sedan on the market in 2010?

Well, Nut, they did "overthrow" the W220 S-Class when the A8L came out in 2003 (not 2001). It's a cycle--the next A8 will do the same. Perhaps the upcoming 7 Series will pose more of a threat this time?

S-class, A8, 7 --the quibbling can go on forever about which LUXURY car best satisfies peeple who think these should also drive like SPORTS cars.

meanwhile, in SALES to real people who appreciate what luxury cars TRULY should be, the LS460 is stomping all of 'em in sales. lol.

so is the Ford F-150 but that doesn't necessarily make it a better luxury car. Its quite simple. Sell a cheaper luxury-only car and you'll clearly sell more, it's called supply and demand. There is higher demand at the lower income levels for people that would love to live above their means or at least look like they can afford luxury. German cars cost more simply because more money goes into reasearch that makes these cars handle better, feel better and perform better. Just look at the Lexus customer base. 60+ years old, unflexible, unknowledgeable of today's technology. Their single purpose is to buy a car that supposedly spends less time at the shop.

The ironic part is that while Lexus may lead in reliability, if you translate reliability into real life meaning numbers you end up with,
1. Lexus unscheduled shop visits 1.1 per vehicle per year,
2. Brand X scheduled shop visits 1.15 /vehicle/yr
3. Brand Y scheduled shop visits 1.23 /vehicle/yr

There was a good article (I wish I had copied the source) about the hype of vehicle reliability. In summary, almost all brands' reliability index is higher than what the Lexus reliability was a few years ago, and then it was considered bullerproof. So if we are at bulletproof today, what do we care if reliability increases a 1/10th of a minute time spend at the shop per vehicle per year?! Sure we care, but does it even make sense to even have rankings. Of course, otherwise JD Power & Asses would not make any money out of this. It's like claiming that the R8 is a far better car then the 911 Carrera because it is .01 seconds faster to the 1/4 mile.

Given that Lexus/Toyota reliability is only going downhill makes my point all that more relevant.

This car is already dull...

if they made a Matchbox car look like this I would have bought it 20 years ago. Then again I would also have had the Mach 5.

I think Lexus went extreme, from boring, bland, underperforming, souless cars to boring, tacky, overhyped (since it is the only thing they can cling to), souless cars.

100% CORRECT

Just get it through your heads. Our generation, the 30-somethings that couldn't afford a Merc or BMW in the nineties love lexus for selling them aspiration. Aspiration of being on par with MB or BMW. Today, Lexus has a great product that cost roughly the same (with the exception of MB who raised the bar with the new S- and CL-classes) as all the other luxury brands. Its just that folks that could afford the MB or BMW in the nineties are loyal to the brand. As loyal as current Lexus owners are to Lexus today.

I'm not praising any of the brands. I do own a e46 M3, but I read all the posts here and look at what's being marketed by Audi, BMW, Lexus and MB and don't know what to get next. Its just the perfect time to be a car enthusiast. You have choices. Figure out what you have a passion to drive and get it because its out there!

"Lexus has a great product that cost roughly the same"

not even close. here are a few BASE prices for comparison (and don't forget that options on mercedes and bmw are hugely expensive).

LS $61,000, S550 $87,475, 750i $75,800

SC $65,455, SL550 $96,075, 650i $82,700

RX $37,400, ML350 $44,425, X5 3.0 $45,900
(and typical options on the ML and X5 are about $15,000)

base prices are almost meaningless.

what buyer of LUXURY cars settle for the strippo models on the lot? (unless they'be buying the cheapest 3-series just so they can be a propeller head)

the more significant figure, is the average TRANSACTION price for the respective models.