Math Madness: Who Will Be The Premium Market Leaders in 2010 and to 2030?

Math Madness: Who Will Be The Premium Market Leaders in 2010 and to 2030?

If you read the press and take it verbatim you might think Lexus is the undisputed luxury car leader, then and then the very next day BMW may be claiming to rule the world. But lets lets not forget Audi in the wings telling you by the next millennium that they will be the leader of the segment.

 

Who do you believe, and what is hype? Even though we consider ourselves an equal opportunity website there is no doubt AutoSpies can be divvied into two camps pretty easily, the Pacific Rim enthusiasts on one side the Germanic European fan boys on the other. Each touting who rules the luxury roost. Never mind there are other brands out there (Cadillac, Jaguar, etc) we always seems to congregate in these two camps when it comes to who is the best. So for the purpose of discussion we will limit our scope to these two competent factions of the enthusiast fan base.

 

Lets start out with the truths as we know it. Of the main players in the Pacific Rim camp we have primarily 3 Lexus, Infiniti and Acura each with a different flavor and fan appeal. On the European front we are represented by Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, and Porsche. All worthy players in their own right.

 

So what does the battlefield look like?

 

You would have to be living under a rock to not know that Lexus will lead the way here for 2007. Selling 322,434 cars last year and a by my projections they will yield around 335,976 for 2007, they are quite impressive. But if you take a look you will see that BMW is trailing but not really that far behind. With additional models coming in 2008 and beyond this might take them over the top for 2008.

For those of you are wondering, wow I got my 2007 projections. I simply took the growth rate so far for this year and factored it into last year’s sales. A fair shot for all.

 

Overall Sales

 

 

 

 

2006

2007 *

Lexus

322,434

335,976

Acura

201,223

182,368

Infiniti

121,146

128,742

 

 

 

BMW

274,432

298,033

Mercedes

248,080

255,026

Audi

90,116

99,128

Porsche

34,227

34,672

Total

1,291,658

1,333,945

 

 

 

Let’s look at market share.

 

Using 2006 sales data we can see to no one’s surprise the Lexus also leads the way here as well. Using superior marketing and targeting the soft underbelly of the American buyer they have carved out an impressive share of the market. Of the combined total of almost 1.3 million cars sold last year by these seven brands, Lexus sold almost ¼ of the entire total. In this case quantity again is a factor. .Projecting out 2007 sales to the end of the year, shows this margin increases to just over 25% for the year. Taking bigger and bigger slices each year clearly seems to be the strategy. As you can see from below BMW is still the big gun for the European community.

 

Share Percentage

 

 

 

 

2006

2007

Lexus

24.92%

25.15%

Acura

15.55%

13.65%

Infiniti

9.36%

9.64%

 

 

 

BMW

21.21%

22.31%

Mercedes

19.18%

19.09%

Audi

6.97%

7.42%

Porsche

2.65%

2.60%

 

How about Sales Growth?

 

Another way to reveal trends is to look at sales growth. Who is doing the best job at maximizing the gain in sales over last year? The first thing you must do is take the figures and strip out the entire “Daily Sales Rate” mambo jumbo some manufacturers use and get to a real figure. How many more cars did I sell this year than last is the rule here? Using a raw percentage format you can see who did well last year and who the leaders are for 2007.

 

Now before any of you get excited, you have to remember that the bigger you get, the harder it is to maintain momentum. So Audi isn’t over taking Lexus anytime soon. But you can correctly argue that they are on a roll for them. In the below table you see that while Lexus maintains a respectable growth rate of just over 4% for 2007 BMW who has similar sales is gaining rapidly at almost double the rate. Is there a power shift on the horizon?

 

Sales Growth Rate

 

 

 

 

2006

2007

Lexus

6.45%

4.20%

Acura

-4.00%

-9.37%

Infiniti

-11.18%

6.27%

 

 

 

Audi

8.49%

10.00%

BMW

3.09%

8.60%

Mercedes

10.54%

2.80%

Porsche

7.18%

1.30%

 

Is the big picture a shrinking pie?

 

If you took these seven manufacturers and mapped them back to 2000 you may see an unsettling trend. While the premium market is still growing, it is showing signs of slowing. Perhaps reaching a saturation point in the US market? In the year 2000 we saw the seven add sales of 120,022 vehicles combined, but in 2001 that total had dropped by over 60% of that to a mere 40,843 vehicles. While it rebounded again two years later the economic downturn again took its toll in 2005 and plummeted again. It has yet to recover.

 

But who is benefiting how is just maintaining and who are the losers? As you can from above Acura has bore the brunt of this latest downturn down almost 10% after an already soft 2005 sales year. By the end of 2007 they will be down over 27,000 vehicles compared to 2005! While Infiniti is showing an increase for this year, it is also against a rather dismal 2006. So much so, that even at the respectable growth rate of over 6% rate it won’t even reach 2004 sales levels for 2007.

 

Annual Sales Gain By Units

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2000

2001

2002

2003

2004

2005

2006

2007

Lexus

20,147

17,946

10,126

25,646

28,172

14,968

19,539

13,542

BMW

34,453

23,704

18,905

8,557

19,490

6,121

8,232

23,601

Mercedes

16,177

1,024

6,587

5,492

2,893

2,811

23,659

6,946

Audi

14,413

2,911

2,443

695

-8,504

5,149

7,050

9,012

Acura

24,675

27,788

-4,917

5,366

28,001

10,691

-8,387

-18,855

Infiniti

5,714

-6,986

16,546

30,744

12,332

5,414

-15,255

7,596

Porsche

4,442

-2,437

5,916

-608

3,057

460

2,294

445

Total

120,022

40,843

78,715

47,477

113,858

45,615

37,133

42,288

 

 

Who is picking up the pieces?

 

If you look at it for the last two years Lexus is continually rising, but their progress is remarkably close to the losses that the other two Pacific Rim companies are posting. Is Lexus cobbling up the other two sales? I doubt it, but it does sound like a good movie story line. Anyway you look at it though, there is no doubt the Lexus engine is slowing from almost 11% just a few years ago to just over 4% for 2007. Interesting.

 

This slowdown would be easy to discount because of the size of Lexus, if it weren’t for the acceleration of BMW from just under 3% annually in 2006 to over 8.5% for 2007. This trend may show signs of continuing as BMW plans an onslaught of new models by 2012 almost twice those projected by Lexus for the same time period.

 

But who is winning?

 

If we were to pit these giants against each other, we would see these 4 Europeans claimed over 54% of the lions share of sales for the group in 2001. But the Pacific Rim Godzilla’s had whittled it way to just under 49% in 2004. This might have been a sad story if it wasn’t for the tenacity of the German 4. If the trend continues for the next 2 months then by the end of 2007 these 4 premium companies will have reversed the loss in market share and will have reclaimed the market with over 51% of the share in just two years. The Europeans are not out just quite yet now are they?

 

So now for a little fun.

 

Predicting the future is a risky business. While it might be easy for us to predict the short term, the long term is much more of a challenge. Well as we all know, I am not one to shy away from a challenge, so lets see what the short term holds for these 7 manufactures and then look further down the road.

 

As we all know, nothing moves fast in the corporate world, economic hardships and corporate policies take a few years to take hold and bear fruit. With that in mind, if we take our current sales gain percentages for this year and apply them to the next few years we might get a glimpse into the near future. Taking the percent of gain so far for this year, we can take a pretty close look 2007 will pan out as. We can also take these numbers and if they hold true see what 2010 might look like as well.

 

2007 will end like last year with Lexus on top, BMW in second and Mercedes in third. But if we apply the current growth rates and pan forward to 2010, we see the BMW’s acceleration will move it past Lexus to take the number one spot. Now this may seem to be a bit far fetched for some of us to believe. It may not be that unreasonable due to the fact that BMW is not that far behind, and they plan to release almost double the new models of Lexus by 2010.

 

Sounds pretty interesting to me. But what does the long term hold? Lets stretch out the scenario for another 20 years and see what happens? In this case BMW has stretched its lead, and approaching 2 million units for 2030. Primarily due to slower growth Lexus sits at 887,619 unit and actually was passed by of all people Audi! Unlikely? Yes, but it sure shows that you are never too far behind given enough time. In this case 23 years.

 

 

% Increase

2007

2010

2015

2020

2025

2030

Lexus

4.20%

335,976

380,112

466,928

573,573

704,575

865,498

BMW

8.60%

298,033

381,728

576,638

871,068

1,315,835

1,987,699

Mercedes

2.80%

255,026

277,054

318,075

365,170

419,238

481,312

Audi

10.00%

99,128

131,939

212,489

342,215

551,141

887,619

Acura

-9.37%

182,368

135,758

83,009

50,756

31,035

18,976

Infiniti

6.27%

128,742

154,508

209,414

283,830

384,691

521,393

Porsche

1.30%

34,672

36,042

38,446

41,011

43,747

46,665

 

 

So now after seeing the scenarios and the trends who do you think will be on top in 2010 and the future and why? I gave my picks no matter how far fetched they may be. I always root for the underdog



LuxuriousLuxurious - 11/7/2007 12:51:37 PM
+1 Boost
Very nice article 009.
I said it before on a different blog that I see BMW being the leader in the near future, that's due to their new models, especially the 1-series..but at the same time I think the 1-series biggest competitor is going to be the 3-series and the Z4, because I think most of the 1-series buyers are going to be in-house buyers, due to its projected price and the fact the none of the competition has a vehicle in the same class..
but I see BMW being #1 in the premium market, but I hope they learn from Mercedes (more car classes does't mean more profit..the R-class)


AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 11/9/2007 10:25:44 PM
+3 Boost
No one knows what the market will look like in 2030, and while predicting is fun, is really just a waste of time.

In 1984, the idea that a Japanese company could create a luxury car that was as good as what the Germans made was laughable. Now, Lexus dominates the US market, with Acura and Infiniti also representing a large portion of it.

By 2030, I see a couple of new entrants into the luxury market, most notably a division of Hyundai, and possibly contenders from Europe as well.

Things change. Technology changes, and nothing is ever guaranteed. Despite this, however, I don't see Lexus falling from it's number one spot unless they are involved in a serious image tarnishing scandal.




Agent009Agent009 - 11/7/2007 1:07:30 PM
+3 Boost
Yes they are paying a financial price to grow. The cost of being "independent", is you have less reserves.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/7/2007 5:30:46 PM
+2 Boost
What, you think that I thought Audi would surpass BMW in America? That's not happening, and honestly, I don't care a bit.


GermanNutGermanNut - 11/7/2007 6:39:44 PM
-1 Boost
amazinBimmer, I triple dare you to post something negative about the Audi R8.


IngenieurIngenieur - 11/7/2007 1:02:49 PM
+7 Boost
"Pacific Rim" vs "Germanic European"...hmmm.

It's been slow here recently so I guess you got to do what you got to do to create traffic here. :-)


SixxFiveSixxFive - 11/7/2007 1:22:21 PM
+1 Boost
This article highlights the various car makers in the US market. Would be interesting to do the same for the world market.


YenzenhoYenzenho - 11/7/2007 1:32:31 PM
0 Boost
Toyota growth is larger then BMW and Lexus is Toyotas #1 growth. Technology of IS350 has large power over c class MB. Lexus is always the car for men and its future to come remaining #1 in world.



pushrod27pushrod27 - 11/7/2007 3:16:08 PM
+2 Boost
'Lexus is always the car for men'...

You must be high on PCP. That's the complete opposite of reality.


ICONICON - 11/7/2007 10:30:10 PM
0 Boost
How many threads are you going to post this same asinine comment?

If English is your second language, then get the old language converter out and come up with something an adult would say. Good luck with that...


bearsfan49bearsfan49 - 11/8/2007 6:50:05 PM
0 Boost
Math indeed, most of Lexus sales are sub $40,000 or simply, their Camry offshoots, the ES350 and the RX350. The LS 460 does not sell well. Chevy sells more vehicles above $50,000 than Lexus. Lexus looks like number one until you look at selling price. They are a near-luxury car maker.


MateMate - 11/7/2007 1:41:19 PM
+9 Boost
The o-zone will have already been depleted by 2030, and we'll all be dead.


AudiphileAudiphile - 11/7/2007 1:47:33 PM
-3 Boost
Agent 009, why did you include Porsche in the European "high-performance luxury group"? Except for the Cayenne SUV, Porsche is a sports-car manufacturer. While all Porsches are high-performance, only the Cayenne would be considered luxurious.

Jaguar has a broader product line, and all of its cars are both luxurious and capable of high performance. Thus this "limey" company should be included in the European group otherwise dominated by the "Kraut Clan" of Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/7/2007 1:56:10 PM
0 Boost
agent 009:

just curious...do you happen to have the breakout of cars vs. SUVs sold by each brand for the current year?


Agent009Agent009 - 11/7/2007 2:51:13 PM
+2 Boost
Here they are sorted by percentage:

YTD SUV
Acura 149612 67223 44.93%
Lexus 269775 104173 38.61%
Porsche 29140 10061 34.53%
Mercedes 203085 59433 29.27%
Infiniti 103779 26803 25.83%
Audi 75900 17587 23.17%
BMW 239788 50943 21.25%



Agent009Agent009 - 11/7/2007 2:53:29 PM
+3 Boost
As you can tell the brands that rely on the most SUV sales are the ones hurting the most. Pretty obvious.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/7/2007 2:58:14 PM
+1 Boost
thanks 009!

sales of cars in the US year-to-date:

BMW 188,000
Lexus 165,000
Mercedes 143,000
Acura 82,000
Infinit 77,000
Audi 58,000

just the facts. just the facts.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/7/2007 3:03:20 PM
+1 Boost
actually, if the economy 'does bad' as you say, the brands dependent on SUVs will be hurt most. bmw is least dependent on SUVs while the japanese brands' volume are very dependent on them. not surprisingly,japanese brands' growth rates for the past couple of months have been MUCH lower than the german brands.


JUGNUJUGNU - 11/7/2007 2:01:22 PM
+2 Boost
"2030
BMW = 1,987,699
MB = 481312"

Haha i don't see this happening

btw don't forget the Asian markets like Middle East,India and neighbours...etc where Lexus is growing faster (% wise) than anyother luxury brand.

So I predict BMW may cross Lexus in US but in World sales Lexus will be ahead.

JUGNU


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/7/2007 2:51:11 PM
+1 Boost
"btw don't forget the Asian markets like Middle East,India and neighbours...etc where Lexus is growing faster (% wise) than anyother luxury brand."

lexus' volume is very tiny relative to all the other brands outside of the US. so though it's current growth rate may be high, the volume growth is small. and, guess what, growth rates shrink dramatically as volume grows.

i'll help you out with an example. so lexus sells 8,000 cars in china one year and 12,000 the next. that's a 50% growth rate and a volume increase of a mere 4,000. bmw sells 100,000 cars the same year and 110,000 the next. that's a growth rate of 10% and a volume increase of 10,000. you tell me who's ahead.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/7/2007 5:35:06 PM
-5 Boost
Audi and BMW have a massive lead over everyone else in China--especially with the Audi A6L. Something tells me that with that on their side, Lexus won't even come close.


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 11/7/2007 5:36:13 PM
0 Boost
couldn't have said it better myself. Some things just seems so much like common sense. But some people do not have it. Percentages are relative.


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 11/7/2007 2:10:56 PM
+3 Boost
I think you missed a few key points.

The OEM’s ability to produce new models affects sales rates year to year, so using a constant rate over the long term is purely a mathematical exercise.

Of all the OEMs, the most aggressive in product launches will likely have a larger gain. So the real factor here is having the funds to launch an aggressive campaign.

Audi (backed by parent company VW) and MB are the largest German brands by far. Of these two, Audi has already approved a long term aggressive plan to introduce many new models by 2015 (I have not read about anything similar from MB). Lexus, from what I hear does not have an aggressive plan, and given their conservative approach to everything, they will first see what the Europeans do first and then it will react (If Lexus were a man I would call him a coward, but in the business world its all about profit, isn't it???).

Mathematically speaking it is "difficult" to catch up to a brand that sells 3 times as much in a given market with a slightly higher sales rate. In the real world there are many unpredictable factors one cannot account for so assuming otherwise is another exercise in wasting time..

New product launches, brand perception, and falling out of favor with other brand's design or even loosing market share because your "untouchable" perception of ultimate reliability is going down the tubes can affect your market share from one year to the next. Bad press, environmental impact can also create big swings in buyer’s perceptions.

A negative change in sales rate to anyone turns into a "double whammy" gain for the competition. If you were to adjust BMWs rate, for example, to 7% and Audi’s to 12.5% to reflect new product launches and BMWs loss of market share you can easily predict that Audi will surpass BMW by 2030 (Globally of course, Audi would have surpassed BMW much much earlier than 2030, more like ~2010). The numbers are not unrealistic but have a major effect on the outcome, thus your analysis becomes very weak and pointless. Future analysis is used as a planning tool and not anything else. Its stupid enough arguing over subjective issues in the present regarding our favorite brands.

Aside from the numbers...
Lexus has not solved their age issue, and introducing new "sportier" models is no proof that it will. Their new product needs to succeed in the buyers' market before they can make any claim. For this reason I am inclined to give Lexus a not so rosy future with the likes of Acura.

Infiniti has hope in its modern design scheme and specially if it decides to market the GT under the Infiniti brand. An increase in product line would do them great. Its too bad Nissan is not doing so hot and most likely would not be able to fund any aggressive expansion.

BMW has had the Bangle issues leading to many loyal customers to chose the competition or at least question their loyalty. BMWs profits have also fallen. They claim exchange rates but fool no (wis


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 11/7/2007 2:17:20 PM
-1 Boost
cont...
BMW has had the Bangle issues leading to many loyal customers to chose the competition or at least question their loyalty. BMWs profits have also fallen. They claim exchange rates but fool no (wise) mind. Rates affect all equally. When considering that BMW HAS a US manufacturing site then this exchange rate can hardly make a a comparison point to other German brand(s) that are solely made in Europe (for US market). It seems that BMW is trying to divert attention to its great 335i and next 1-Series with its hyped 340hp. These kind of cars are not cheap to make and thus BMW is loosing profit to market them relatively cheap to maintain momentum. They simply can't compete with the VW money machine.

You also make a big unstated assumption here, no ones' market share seems to be affected by anyone else. Car buying population may be a reason for increased sales but so is higher demand for luxury (people's increased needs to feel rich). Reasons for loosing market share can be loosing it to the competition (the obvious one) or badly targeting your customer base, such is the case with the 60+ year old that is the average Lexus buyer. No disrespect to anyone here, but that is a diminishing market segment. This implies that your "big mammouth" that is Lexus could be decreasing faster than you may think. Well positioned brands such as Audi with much improved reliability will easily absorb part of that share.

I don't think BMW has the resources to match the product release rate that Audi has thanks to its "oh so evil" parent company. So, the only company left over is MB which tends to focus more on luxury, so not a very direct competitor to the Audi buyer..

Overall, the Europeans are focusing a lot more on reliability and it shows. This is no longer a Lexus only claim and the customer will realize this with time - another negative for Lexus since it has nothing else to hold on to.




Agent009Agent009 - 11/7/2007 3:05:14 PM
+1 Boost
Well I will be the first one to say any numbers past 2007 are purely speculative. There is an outside shot that the 2010 scenario may pan out as I said due to reasons we both agree upon.

As for 2030...LOL... if it were only that easy!

These companies post record sales and then bomb 2 to 3 years later only to come back again in many cases. so all bets are off as far as that goes.

As for me in 2010 I see BMW as number one because of agressive madel launches. I do see Lexus gaining market but at the expense of Acura and Infiniti's limited pentration to the greater degree.

Acura is flat out lost and Infiniti based alot of their previous stellar growth on gas guzzling SUV's. Both are failing to gain traction becuase of marketing choices.



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/7/2007 5:41:25 PM
0 Boost
No, Infiniti's growth is based largely on the G35.


Agent009Agent009 - 11/8/2007 9:01:41 AM
0 Boost
Well this year yes, in the past it was fueled by SUV sales. Each time a SUV was released ton of new sales.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 7:13:24 PM
0 Boost
No, in the past it was fueled by the G35. They wouldn't be even close to where they are now if it was never introduced as a true contender.


IhavearedS2000IhavearedS2000 - 11/7/2007 2:30:51 PM
+2 Boost
I wouldn't count Acura out yet...


pushrod27pushrod27 - 11/7/2007 3:19:02 PM
+1 Boost
Acura still outsells Infiniti? I'm shocked. Don't understand why.


ShredmoShredmo - 11/7/2007 2:44:16 PM
+1 Boost
I like to think a chinese corp. will buy Jaguar and it will be #1 by 2030. Ha ha!


ShredmoShredmo - 11/7/2007 2:44:27 PM
+1 Boost
I like to think a Chinese corp. will buy Jaguar and it will be #1 by 2030. Ha ha!


no1listensanywayno1listensanyway - 11/7/2007 3:03:20 PM
0 Boost
Without doing any statistical or financial analysis, I believe BMW will be the market share leader. Why? Because they are the best car on the roads, and there are a disgusting amount of people out there who strive to own one. They are also very popular, in the Far Eastern World, and the way China's economic bubble is growing, they will sell more there then in the states. (Sooner then Later) As you can see with the status of the Stock Market, Big Emerging Markets is where its at and BMW is all over it.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/7/2007 5:43:56 PM
0 Boost
Audi already sells more in the Chinese market than the US market (2007--this is the first year of it), and they have a clear lead over all other luxury brands there. BMW is a distant second, but they are stronger than most other luxury brands, nonetheless.


nybimmernybimmer - 11/7/2007 3:26:11 PM
+1 Boost
Agent 009 - can you please investigate/explain the ownership structure of Audi?

Is it "owned" by Volkswagen or is it a "brother" to Volkwagen? Or, is it quasi-independent with VW just having an ownership stake and sharing some technology?

Another way - is VW like GM and Audi is like Pontiac, or is VW like Chevy and is Audi like Pontiac.

Nobody probably cares about my question - but its kind of unclear to me


mclaren428mclaren428 - 11/7/2007 3:34:08 PM
-1 Boost
Audi is VW's luxury brand. similar to Toyota's luxury brand being Lexus.


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 11/7/2007 5:44:10 PM
+2 Boost
no... VW group AG owns 99.9% of Audi AG. VW group also operates VW car. Just as Daimler AG owns and operates Mercedes-Benz, Smart Car, and Maybach, just that the VW AG and VW cars share similar names.

VW AG is the parent company.

And its not like Toyota and Lexus, because whereas Lexus is Toyota's creation, Audi is not VW's creation. It was a company taken over by VW. Audi AG has its own board of directors, stock listing, and CEO. Lexus is wholly owned subsidiary, under Toyota's board of director, stock listing, and has president of operations.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/7/2007 5:49:01 PM
+2 Boost
"Or, is it quasi-independent with VW just having an ownership stake and sharing some technology?"

This fits it best. Audi/VW is NOT parallel to Lexus/Toyota. And not for the obvious reasons--but because Audi develops most of the technology in the VW Group and extends it to other brands in the range. They made the W12, they made quattro, they made the 4.2 V8, they made the 2.0T, they started FSI, they first fitted DSG to their vehicles.

However, there is some platform-sharing, although it's not as extensive as Lexus/Toyota's. The three main VW-based Audi cars are the A3, Q7 and TT. However, the Q7 and TT are highly modified, and drive quite differently from their platform-mates. I do not consider the A8 to be on the Phaeton's platform because of its aluminum construction, though it does lend its underbody to the Bentley Continental family.

Audi also brings home the bacon for the VW Group... they are the most profitable brand. Porsche ownership will only amplify this.


nybimmernybimmer - 11/7/2007 9:09:23 PM
+2 Boost
Thanks ThierryHenry, that's helpful


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 11/9/2007 11:48:47 AM
+1 Boost
There is a major difference between Audi/VW and Lexus/Toyota.

Audi started out as an independent company with its own engineering, design and manufacturing. VW bought Audi and now they share certain components and have cost cutting efforts together. VW controls and approves Audis funding.

Lexus started out as Toyota rebadged cars. No unique engineering, design or anything except for the badge on the car. Lexus didn't even exist in many countries as Lexus, but as Toyota. They are now working on chaging that image. It is simply more difficult to fool foreigners than it is Americans, it seems.

So Lexus/Toyota compares much better to Pontiac/GM.

There are many out there that simply love to say that Audis are rebadged VWs. While that is not entirely false (some small entry-level cars share platforms, as well as some SUVs) it is generally false most of the time. All high-performance Audis from the new TT, A4, A6, A8, R8 have nothing to share with VW. The main point of complain from some is the architecture of the car or a.k.a the platform. Audi has developed new platforms that allows them to reposition the engine further backward while allowing for AWD components. VW may or may not take advantage of this in the future.


XYZZXYZZ - 11/10/2007 4:32:04 AM
-1 Boost
MeanVulcan:

"Lexus started out as Toyota rebadged cars. No unique engineering, design or anything except for the badge on the car. Lexus didn't even exist in many countries as Lexus, but as Toyota."

WRONG.

the original LS, and ALL subsequent LS generations, was uniquely designed as a Lexus.

while early ESs were indeed re-badged and spiffed up camrys, from 2 generations ago, the lexus version was designed FIRST, then adapted to become camrys.

one could say the last 2 camrys were in fact, decontented LEXUS ESs. and that partially explains WHY they have been selling so well. best selling sedan in the u.s. for nearly a DECADE. best value. best, and UNSURPASSED reliability (except for a FEW recent models, due to some slippage from too fast production rampups to satisfy high demand and volume).

finally, while many try to put down lexus as just fancy toyotas, the fact is, for the unbiased, that is not only NOTHING to be ashamed of, but can be actually A BADGE OF HONOR.

toyotas are the BEST BUILT and most reliable vehicles on the planet. mgmt guru Tom Peters had said the chevy prizm was the BEST ASSEMBLED vehicle in the whole gm lineup, with fewer defects than even CADDY and BUICK. that car, like today's pontiac vibe, is of course a REBADGED TOYOTA.

in asia, toyota has more prestige than benz. they even have a Century v12 model, that's FULLY comparable to rolls royce in everyway except for heritage. even had a far more MODERN engine until recently (when bmw finally put a modern engine in the RR).

reviews of high level toyotas OFTEN make a comparison to lexus. with FULL justification. aside from unique styling, lexus models simply have more luxurious trimmings and fancier options. the quality and reliability are almost identical!

so the reverse works too. toyota land cruisers and 4Runners are rebadged as Lexi, and FULLY ACCEPTED as Lexus models. because they ALL share toyota STATE-OF-THE-ART engines, quality of assembly, and total reliability.

the mbz ML series copied the 4Runner's C-pillar and sleek profile. but it still falls short of toyota reliability. lexus AND toyota are fully the equal, and often superior, to mercedes in most comparable models. (mb does offer models where toyota/lexus has no matching competitor.)

only in europe, and in the eyes of german car enthusiasts elsewhere, is this REALITY not acknowledged.

the lexus line was pure marketing genius. unlike in asia, americans and europeans associated toyota with primarily econoboxes and value priced mid-size cars. they had NO exposure to higher end toyotas like the Century, Crown, and others.

so the Lexus label was created to START AFRESH with a high end impression.

contrast toyota's brilliant strategy here, with VWs attempt to go upmarket with the Phaeton. there is no greater example of a contrast in marketing success and abject failure. (of course, toyota also invested tons more money than vw did.)




S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/12/2007 1:05:27 AM
+1 Boost
Apex, I don't think you need to make excuses for some Lexuses being built on Toyota platforms. The more knowledgeable on this site will rest with the fact that the most impressive cars they have produced have not been on Toyota platforms (IS350, LS460, GS350, etc.), and that most Toyota-based cars are impressive also (LX, ES350, RX).


XYZZXYZZ - 11/14/2007 7:12:33 AM
+1 Boost

quite true, S4. there are however, some (many?) on this forum who are NOT knowledgable.


M35MTM35MT - 11/7/2007 5:00:42 PM
+3 Boost
You kept the growth rate constant based on this year alone? That's not very accurate...you honestly think Audi will continue to decline? What about standard deviation? Probability?

You clearly have the time to work out the numbers, get on that!

BMW will not have that much of the market for 1 simple reason - people like to be different (not too different) but different enough to buy a unique car. That is why the Camry and Accord are so bland...everyone has one (and they're kinda boring but you get the idea).


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/7/2007 5:50:06 PM
+1 Boost
Audi is not declining. Did you mean Acura?


M35MTM35MT - 11/8/2007 8:34:54 AM
0 Boost
Yes, my bad.


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 11/7/2007 5:34:09 PM
+3 Boost
I don't know if people realize this, but the US is not the only place that cars are sold in the world. I don't know if thats news to anyone, but it sure seems like it.


luxuryboyzzluxuryboyzz - 11/7/2007 5:51:41 PM
-2 Boost
1. Well how I see it Lexus is untouchable for the next 5 years

2. Bmw is the closest to Lexus but they reliability is not good enough

3. Don’t be surprise if Acura or Infinity beat Benz and the next 3 years, cause Benz is outdated they don't really have any fire power to keep up with the future, since most of the Acura models will be redesign on 2009 with shwd I feel that will put Acura on top

4. Infinity is looking good they just have to bring
the Q





bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 11/7/2007 7:38:55 PM
+5 Boost
if BMW are so unreliable there sales wouldnt be as good....most of Lexus Reliability is percieved...people dont repeat buy cars that they have poor experiences with


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/8/2007 12:39:06 AM
+2 Boost
um, i think you're a little out of touch. bmw is already the leader in cars. and lexus total volume (cars + SUVs) will continue to be proportionately more affected by rapidly rising gas prices (oil is almost $100/barrel) because SUVs make up 40% of the brand.

sales of cars in the US year-to-date:

BMW 188,000
Lexus 165,000
Mercedes 143,000
Acura 82,000
Infinit 77,000
Audi 58,000

of course globally all three german marques do 3x the volume of lexus.


luxuryboyzzluxuryboyzz - 11/7/2007 5:52:36 PM
-3 Boost
1. Well how I see it Lexus is untouchable for the next 5 years

2. Bmw is the closest to Lexus but they reliability is not good enough

3. Don’t be surprise if Acura or Infinity beat Benz and the next 3 years, cause Benz is outdated they don't really have any fire power to keep up with the future, since most of the Acura models will be redesign on 2009 with shwd I feel that will put Acura on top

4. Infinity is looking good they just have to bring
the Q





LarryLarry - 11/7/2007 8:36:26 PM
-1 Boost
live for today, a article about who will be the market leader from 2010 to 2030? so what what differnece does it make, you mean my BMW is not so great because it is not the market leader in 2030. I never buy a porsche or a BMW because it is a market leader , bullshit news.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/7/2007 10:08:20 PM
+2 Boost
Then why do you bash Audi for selling less cars than BMW?

"I thought this site was about liking cars because of their cool looks, speed, fun to drive etc."

If this is so, there should be no reason for you to hate Audi.


LarryLarry - 11/7/2007 8:41:57 PM
-1 Boost
I thought this site was about liking cars because of their cool looks, speed, fun to drive etc. not about what is going to happen in 2030, yes audi you can dream about being like BMW in 2030.


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 11/8/2007 11:40:10 AM
+2 Boost
and you can dream about being in any of these cars as well.


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 11/7/2007 10:40:04 PM
-1 Boost
I cant believe I am weighing in on this....but here goes. BMW's phenomenal sales this year are based almost entirely on the unstoppable 3 series. I've loved every 3 series since the early 80's, until this Bangle-ized beast. So I cannot figure out why it continues to smash sales records. Magifeel, soul, blah blah blah....but I digress....

BMW will simply NOT sustain this phenomenal growth of this year over the next several years. You have completely missed the boat on this.

First, the smaller you are, the bigger the percentage growth. As BMW gets increasingly bigger, they cannot continue with these high percentage gains month after month. That is why you see Lexus posting 3-4%, not the huge percentage gains of previous years. Yet there sales continue to grow. This will be the same for BMW in future years.

Second, counting on the growth based on one year is bad enough, counting on growth simialr to one of a company's best years is even worse. Using 2007 as the predictor of the future years' growth is the worst form of Math. I know I come down hard on you a lot 009, but this is one of your worst posts yet.

And all so that you sell up BMW and downplay Lexus. "Using superior marketing and targeting the soft underbelly of the American buyer..." You are SHAMELESS!!


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/8/2007 12:44:09 AM
0 Boost
i agree that projections more than a few years out are rather silly. too many unknowns.

however, we do know that BMW is lauching (2) new M3 models, (2) 1-series coupes, (2) 1-series convertibles...and that's just in 2008. the 1-series in particular could push BMW's growth rate even higher than current given the price point--further solidifying BMW's place as the highest volume luxury car in the US.




XYZZXYZZ - 11/8/2007 2:53:23 AM
+1 Boost
"BMW will simply NOT sustain this phenomenal growth of this year over the next several years. You have completely missed the boat on this. "


agreed.

good stats and analysis for the near term 009. but trying to project figures out to 2030 on the basis of ONE year's growth rate is totally bogus.

from your own chart of unit sales changes by year, one year bmw gains almost 11,000 unit sales, the following year they DROP by 13,000! (2003-05).

you cannot make even a THREE year projection from variances like that, to say nothing of 23 years.

i'll grant, you did say you'd "have a little fun..."



Agent009Agent009 - 11/8/2007 9:40:15 AM
+2 Boost
1970toyotamarc-

You took you a while to respond.

Yes I could have based it on a 1 year increase or a 2 year increase (really no difference) even a 5 or 10 avg. The 5 and 10 year would have painted a different picture no doubt. But I had to look at annoucements of future plans to paint it as correctly as I could.

Lexus sales are not accelerating like they used to, and probably won't continue mainly because they are not going to release as many new models. This built it and wait 4 years with no changes philosophy may hurt them.

On the other hand BMW, & Audi have announced extremely agressive plans to accelerate growth, so they should maintain this pattern for the forseeable future. Infiniti is the most volitile, but again the are the most neglected so I see them up an down, then up, then down. Who knows there.

Acura might as well be on CPR. Just not enough difference between them and Honda, yet a big price difference. This is a fundemental issue for them, no easy way out.

Mercedes is in a rebuilding mode for a while, They will probably announce a similar plan of attack as the other two German companies, so I believe they are possibly misrepresented.




S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 5:39:08 PM
+2 Boost
You guys aren't getting something (Toyo fans bashing BMW).

BMW has been able to maintain phenomenal growth WORLDWIDE for over a decade. Of course, there have been a few hiccups, but overall they are doing an excellent job balancing sales, profits and product. They have not lost focus. They are like Porsche, but on a bigger scale--they may make some relatively un-sporty cars along the way, but they will always focus on their core lineup and improve it.

The 3 Series is obviously what sustains this growth, and for good reason. It is the undisputed leader of the entry-luxury class, and its sales reflect that. It is ALWAYS selling better- though I'm not exactly sure why and how. It's one of the wonders of the world.

They will still grow. I can tell you that with full confidence. What is happening to Lexus will not happen to them.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 5:41:54 PM
+2 Boost
And as for the 3 Series, marc? Your opinion is irrelevant--and YES, it does keep selling because of "magic feel!" Magic feel is not imaginary! It is the perfect balance of ride and handling that makes so many BMWs so impressive! The 3 Series has not sold so exceptionally well over the years because of its sexy styling.


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 11/9/2007 9:48:19 PM
+1 Boost
why so angry S4? I think I made it clear that my anti-current gen 3 hatred was obvioulsy irrelevant to the sales, hence the phrase... I digress... My point (made shortly thereafter) was still valid. How would you like us to base Audi's projected sales on one year, oh say....1987 to 1988?

and 009, Lexus rarely tips their hat to future plans like BMW does. Rumors are swirling, however, for a new cute-ute, new mid sied CUV, new hybrid, new convertible, and of course new sports car. So a new product onslaught may yet come. They're not going to concede market segments so easily, I am sure you will find.


markymarkmarkymark - 11/7/2007 10:51:47 PM
-1 Boost
Unfortunately, I don't think BMW's cars are getting any prettier. I think they kind of have the opposite trend going right now. The Last M3 looked so good compared to the new one and the headlights on the new 1 series just don't cut it. You could say the IS-F looks bad too but it is not a "staple" for the Lexus brand like I think the 1 series needs to be for BMW. Overall, I think Lexus' base models have become more and more impressive looking in the past few years.


markymarkmarkymark - 11/7/2007 10:52:50 PM
0 Boost
just an oppinion of course


TheGeniusTheGenius - 11/7/2007 10:55:20 PM
+1 Boost
009, Curious as to why the study is only focused on only one country (USA)? Why not global sales? You get a complete picture and completely different results if you look at the complete sales picture as opposed to a country.


Agent009Agent009 - 11/8/2007 11:31:38 AM
+2 Boost
Well Lexus and Infiniti and Acura are not that established outside the US. The figures would be way skewed against them. At this point in time it probably would be fair to them.






S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 5:42:46 PM
+1 Boost
Then don't include them! I want to see world sales, too!


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 5:43:51 PM
+2 Boost
Oh and, you should include Lexus in a worldwide comparison. They at least have SOME market outside the US, unlike Acura/Infiniti.


ICONICON - 11/7/2007 11:26:09 PM
+1 Boost
Pure speculation at best..mildly amusing, but I question the definition of "Luxury/Performance" brands.

Acura's lineup does not make the mark IMO. Bland lineup that does not distinguish itself in any meaningful way.(Could explain their market performance lately) Expensive Honda that is more akin to a Buick comparison than Merc/Audi/BMW.

I would rather see Jag in the comparison- I think with the right parent they could have a great future.

Lexus is dubious in terms of potential growth- too much reliance on SUV's and rebadged Toyotas that appeal to the older consumer. Can you say ES?(why is their number one selling auto - the ES even considered as a Lux Performance vehicle anyway?)

Infiniti on the other hand has the best chance of any of the Japanese companies for making market share gains. Sporty and performance oriented - the influence of Ghosn has changed this company dramatically. Styling is not my aesthetic, but they are putting out good products.

I see the BMW-Audi-Mercedes challenging each other for dominance and market share growth in the US as well as emerging markets. I don't see anyone else challenging these three in the next ten years. All enthusiasts should rejoice in what they will bring to the market. Roll On!!


XYZZXYZZ - 11/8/2007 3:12:24 AM
-1 Boost
MainDrainPace:

"One of the biggest factors IMO is a brands presence in each sector/segment/niche. That's where the biggest advances are to be made I'm sure. Seems quite formulaic to me...

"First Pick an option from Section A, one from section B and one from section C... slap you 'company face' on it, think of a model designation that fits.. and bingo

A: SIZE
1)Small
2)Medium
3)Large

B: BODY STYLE
1)Coupe
2)Roadster
3)Saloon (4dr)
4)Estate/Wagon/Tourer
5)SUV/SAV
6)People Carrier

C: ENGINES
1)Economy/Eco-friendly
2)Standard/Common
3)Performance (relative to rest of range)


"I'm not saying that this is right, but it seems to be the strategy that these big players are using.. make sure you've got a car for each slot then you are laughing - unless your market reaches saturation point.. people get sick of your brand and it becomes too common, people get so much choice between brands the buyer starts dictating the pricing, profits suffer, ranges deplete, sales go down. Lots and lots and lots of variables."



this is an excellent analysis, and a significant factor, imo, as to the success of the german brands.

ignoring fwd vs. rwd for the moment, imagine if you could get a v8 in the ES or even the Camry! they're the same size as the 5-series, but only offer v6s.

likewise, suppose you could get a v6 in a civic or corolla? the 3-series would no longer be so domineering anymore!

the asians tend to be too rigid in what size engines they offer in any given size vehicle. if they address that (and bring back rwd in compacts) and also offer diesel engines across the lineup, the euro brands would have even more to worry about.



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 5:45:53 PM
+1 Boost
NOBODY puts V6s/V8s in their entry-level cars... not just the Japanese.


XYZZXYZZ - 11/9/2007 2:45:20 AM
0 Boost
you can get 6s in the 3-series. and even in the soon to arrive 1-series.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/10/2007 2:05:29 AM
0 Boost
"likewise, suppose you could get a v6 in a civic or corolla? the 3-series would no longer be so domineering anymore!"

now you're just making yourself look stupid. comparing a sport sedan like the 3-series to a corolla? by your logic, the camry is then the 5-series competitor. dumb ass.


XYZZXYZZ - 11/10/2007 3:46:38 AM
+1 Boost

dimensionally, they ARE similar. compare wheelbases and interior volumes.

dynamically, of course there are differences. i DID SAY ignore fwd vs rwd.


BillBill - 11/8/2007 1:14:14 PM
0 Boost
"3. Don’t be surprise if Acura or Infinity beat Benz and the next 3 years, cause Benz is outdated they don't really have any fire power to keep up with the future, since most of the Acura models will be redesign on 2009 with shwd I feel that will put Acura on top"

Mr. "luxuryboyzz" is on crack.

Mercedes is a very innovative company. I don't see what you're trying to say with "outdated". Acura and Infiniti cars don't generally appeal to MB buyers. A Mercedes buyer is more likely to go for a Lexus or Cadillac. A Lexus or Cadillac buyer for a Mercedes. Acura and Infiniti are BMW competitors. Sport above luxury...


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 11:17:56 PM
+2 Boost
The real flaw in that post was the assertion that Infiniti or Acura (or both) would surpass Mercedes-Benz. I don't think so.


2ndbimmer2ndbimmer - 11/8/2007 7:45:43 PM
0 Boost
Isee BMW the leader in 2030. This is because a lot of people from BMW currently have gone to other luxury brands to try them out. A lot of people say it was the biggest mistake they have ever made and cannot wait to get back to BMW. So, for now, Lexus has taken some of their clients, but they will go back to BMW because it is like really good crack! Once you have a taste, everything else is bland.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/8/2007 11:15:53 PM
+2 Boost
But then, after awhile you're only able to "tolerate" the crack, and you can't survive without it... and you become depressed... and you aren't able to enjoy anything any more, including the BMW crack you bought in the first place. It just sustains your life and everything about you is focused on getting more crack. That's called addiction.

And I want to be addicted to Porsche.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/12/2007 12:58:31 AM
+1 Boost
But you're wrong. That's all I can say. You are simply incorrect.

If the "crappy FWD chassis" car handles well (RS4!), why would it matter how it's based? And as you say, quattro is not a "mask" for bad engineering. Audi platforms are designed for AWD, not the other way around.

You seem to think that Audi cars will always be nose-heavy. This is not true, either. I agree that my car cannot match the M3 in handling, but I knew that when I bought it, and bought it nonetheless. Some people have different OPINIONS. And to add--the new A4/A5 are perfect examples of how their cars simply aren't going to be so nose-heavy any more.

Audi really doesn't share much with VW (really), and I say this with sincerity, as this seems like a moment in which you can accept logic. Audi develops most of the engines and technology in the VW Group. Furthermore, what is wrong with VW's engines? Just because they're not as good as BMWs that they don't compete with, they're bad? The last time I checked, the 2.0T was the best four-banger you could get in a $20K car. VW's positioning is also quite upscale, which makes me curious about your hatred of their cars. It IS a German brand, and out of all the non-luxury brands they have the best engineering. So why do you hate on them? They HAVE to be FWD if they want to sell well. And they're NOT crappy. Have you ever sat in a Passat? Seen the new R32? Driven a Touareg, Phaeton?

"derivaive styling. plain/ bland with a shiny/ ugly grille"

That is your opinion, but it's not shared by much of the press. They keep winning design awards (and not BMW), year after year. BTW, there's nothing bland about the R8. It's an incredible car in every way... and nothing you say about it will convince me otherwise.

"trying too hard with wannabes who own them and keep justifying them"

I wouldn't have to try to defend them (and I'm not justifying it--I'm just pointing out facts) if you didn't bash them so much. You claim to have owned an Audi in the '80s. Well, obviously you have not driven one lately. I think you'd be surprised at how much they've progressed. Europeans feel the same way... Audis handily outsell BMW in the old continent. I think they'd know more about European cars than any of us. Of course, you will turn it into a jumble of excuses, saying that Audis sell better there because they're cheaper; on the other hand, when a BMW sells better it's because it's superior, right? WRONG!

"if you try to insist (to a laughing audience of BMW owners) that they are a competitipr to BMW especialy int he vaunted M ranks, then plenty of reason to think you are freebasing. "

You are in the minority here. I AM a BMW owner (X5 4.8i coming in Jan), and most true BMW enthusiasts wholly respect Audi and Audi cars. It's the posers (like you) who try to justify the badge by hating on others. For instance, on most of the "normal" Internet forums, Bimmer fans are quite intelligent, nice, funny, etc. I regularly log onto x5world.com and


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/12/2007 1:02:09 AM
+1 Boost
I regularly log onto x5world.com and they say Audi owners are the "nicest" of all the owners they have met. They are also very supportive of other BMW owners and joint Audi/BMW/Merc enthusiasts. AND, best of all, they never get tired of looking at a new car someone has bought, even if it's the same one that they've seen over and over.


GermanNutGermanNut - 11/9/2007 9:26:34 AM
+3 Boost
Except all your assumptions are completely wrong for the Audi R8.

Case in point, you lie to defeat the brand that is in the middle of a renaissance and about to surpass BMW in annual worldwide sales.

a) The R8 is not on a FWD chassis. It is on a Lamborghini AWD chassis
b) The Audi R8 is not too heavy, it weights just over 3,000 pounds
c) The Audi R8 uses Lamborghini design and engineering
d) The Audi R8 does not have derivative, plain, bland styling. ask anyone
e) The R8 is not trying to hard to justify itself. It costs easily more than the most expensive BMW on the market today and in V10 form will likely be more than a Porsche 911 Turbo

I think you forget amazinBimmer, Audi is the company that owns Lamborghini. Lamborghini is one of the world's best sports car manufacturers.

I don't see BMW owning any companies, and, yes, I know they own Rolls-Royce, which have $1.4 million cars.

Just the Reventon in itself shows Audi's managerial expertise.




GermanNutGermanNut - 11/9/2007 9:30:21 AM
+2 Boost
Read this excerpt from Car and Driver's test of the 2009 Audi A4:

The tougher—but absolutely crucial—challenge in Audi’s plan involves closing the image gap that persists between itself and the premium class leaders, which is merely a matter of marketing. By most accounts, Audis are engineered, assembled, and appointed about as well as (and often better than) their countrymen. And the 2009 A4 is no exception.

Your obviously in the minority of people with your anti-Audi beliefs.


4x4rules4x4rules - 11/9/2007 1:26:43 PM
+1 Boost
artielc should be titled "Meth madness"


silver1silver1 - 3/23/2008 4:57:07 PM
+1 Boost




interesting


Copyright 2026 AutoSpies.com, LLC