The Extra Cost of Hybrid Cars

Problem with this comparison. . .
They are not equal vehicles and cost cannot be compared.
The hybrid comes with more equipment than an LE 4cyl.
And they're also the performance side of it (not meaning mileage), it has more power. It also rides smoother and quieter simply by being a hybrid.
Comparing a non hybrid Camry with the same equipment, in as much as they can equiped equally, as a hybrid brings them to a smilar price.

You hybrid lovers think you are smarter than Wall Street but you are not. You are introducing a false argument when you say that hybrids have more power. The hybrid has stored power which can be added to the puny engine power in unsustainable spurts. Drive a hybrid hard for any lenth of time and you will quickly find that the vehicle has run out of stamina just like a fighter about to lose in the ring.

The high cost of having to eventually replace the battery pack completely kills any notion that hybrids make sense in terms of life-cycle cost.

Give it up Toyota unless you plan to sell only plug-in hybrids strictly for urban use. You may even find some utility company partners willing to sell electricity at discount for charging plug-ins during off-peak hours. I'm looking forward to buying my first diesel so I can quickly pass all hybrid slowpokes trying to get up steep long grades in the mountains.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to debunk your standard equipment argument as your statement in that regard is too vague.

XeroKOOL, please forgive my friend EnnNorak, for sometimes, when he gets on a tangent he tramples on little bits of useless information. ;)

Granted, the standard equipment argument is valid against the Wall Street Journal’s article but is it, in the grand scheme of things? Take dummy consumer who wants to get a good reliable car and save the planet at the same time. He/She might consider a base Camry since it in fact would be the most fuel efficient model in the Camry line-up besides the Hybrid model. So in order to be slightly more efficient, he/she has to come up with a whole bunch more money. I understand that an XLS and Hybrid model have a whole bunch of cool features but what if you aren’t into all that? What if you just want to do your part without having to add $60 more to your monthly car payment? Then maybe just this once, the WSJ is on to something.

Regarding your performance numbers… Funny you had to bring up the Lexus GS. If I would have bought a RWD GS350 (V-6) last year, I would have been able to blow the doors off the Lexus GS430 (V-8). Um, yes, it’s a fact, this is the reason why Lexus is stepping up the game of the V-8 powered GS this year, hence GS460 for 2008. So the whole compare info goes out the way side. The GS Hybrid is for folks with a whole bunch of money that still feel they need to make a statement about how they “care.”

By the way, anything can be re-used an refurbished but at the end of a couple of decades those batteries you find in your beloved hybrid will be hazardous waste. More stuff to dump on planet earth. There is other technology out there worth while and a few grand more… In the mean time if you wish to do “your part” stick to vehicles that will have less of a long term effect. This, would not include cars with HUGE batteries.

Peace!

Camry XLE 4 Cyl = 25000
Camry Hybrid = 25200

Camry Hybrid includes Smart Key Standard(Option only on XLE) and VDIM(not available on any other Camry)and has more power, not to mention a CVT Tranny.

XeroK00L, I really don't see what equipment levels have much to do with the issue of hybrids versus non-hybrids. Car manufacturers deliberately confuse potential buyers with expensive equipment packages that include things that should be stand-alone options just to boost the price by forcing people to buy useless junk like NAV systems if they want some truly desirable feature. Mercedes Turbo B is not a hybrid but it can only be had with the power seat option if you buy a package that includes a "panoramic" sun roof. This is essentially a glass roof that I would not want in a roll-over.

It's easy to say that hybrid batteries are "designed" to last the life of the car but they are not guaranteed to last the life the car and must eventually be replaced at very high cost resulting in an unattractive life cycle cost. The relatively low resale value of hybrids does not make it worthwhile to buy them if one changes cars every few years. It's a niche market for hybrids or even a cult market at best.

The GS 450H tested by Auto Motor und Sport must have had a fairly large battery pack that was fully charged before the test so it would be able to demonstrate Lexux' marketing claims on a one shot basis. The test would fail misrably in a long drive through the Rocky Mountains because the batteries would be depleted and the GS would be running on its gasoline engine over 90% of the time. Like I've been saying, only plug-in hybrids make sense and only for urban use, and only if the power companies can offer special low rates to consumers for recharging their plug-ins during off-peak hours.

I'll take a diesel any day.

Xerocool: "the batteries are designed to last for the life of the car, and can be easily and cheaply reconditioned to be brought back to life."

That's interesting. My company designs products for business, industrial, medical, and defense applications with rechargable batteries, and none of the suppliers of the batteries have ever claimed that they can be "easily and cheaply reconditioned".

Please tell me where to go for this, as all my customers would be very interested in such a magical technology!

@ XeroKool

"The popular German magazine, auto motor und sport, road tested the GS450h when it first came out. The test driver tried to deplete the batteries by going full throttle on a long stretch of steep Autobahn uphills near the city of Trier, and in the end there were still plenty of battery energy and gobs of power left. The editors simply had to declare that the V6 hybrid "renders the V8 obsolete"."



I'd like to see a link to this review please. I can speak and read German.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but I find this highly unlikely. Doesn't the GS450h switch to the fuel burning engine at speeds above 30 mph? So how could AMS have driven the car on battery power alone? And even if, I seriously doubt you'd get far on battery power alone at excessive speeds on the Autobahn.

when was the last time you saw gas at $2.70?

turn around is probably cut in half due to me paying $3.15 yesterday to fll up my tank! and nextweek paying $3.50.

i'm going to buy a yaris!

What about if gas was 8 dollars per gallon? I want to see if the Camry hybrid makes economic sense in Europe. (even though they don't sell the Camry here)

xero:

yes, selling a couple dozen LS600 and GS450h per month on the continent is really paving the way for a hybrid future in europe...

They don't sell hybrids in Europe because they already have a wide choice of Diesels. Once there is a wide choice of diesels in the US (and every car-maker is working on diesel models to introduce here) you won't see any personal hybrids.

City busses as a diesel-electric hybrid make sense.
But not in cars.
(maybe full-size pickups and SUVs though..........)

Gas prices are highly volatile for a variety of reasons. Right now gas is selling for the same price as it was in March of this year. At the current price of over $3.00 a gallon, the break-point for a hybrid would be reached in a little less time than this study, which assumed a $2.79/gallon price, would indicate.
In Europe Diesel cars account for almost half of all auto sales. Modern Diesels are a little bit more efficient than hybrids, have similar or better performance (due to their high torque) than a petrol engine, and car manufacturers do not charge a stiff price premium for diesel engines. For example, the Mercedes E320 CDI costs only $1,000 more than the gasoline E350 model - an insignificant price increase for a car costing over $50,000.

Now that low-sulfur Diesel fuel is available in all 50 states, and manufacturers will soon be introducing more Diesel models in the U.S., Diesel engines will be a painless way to achieve lower fuel consumption.

By the way, the European carmakers are not the only ones going the Diesel route. Honda will be introducing a turbodiesel Accord next year, and virtually every carmaker in the world is planning to introduce Diesel cars in the next few years.

Audiphile - I think most M-B 320cdi's and 350s are either priced exactly the same in Europe or the 320cdi is cheaper, meaning there is little reason to buy the slower (yes slower) E350 than the E320cdi which gets a useful 9 more imperial mpg combined and is several tax brackets lower (due to lower CO2 emissions).

xero:

the E320 bluetec may have 58hp less than the E350 but you neglected to mention that it has 142lb-ft more torque. that's why the bluetec is only 0.1 seconds slower to 60 than the E350 AND provides 35% better fuel economy. a damn good deal.

and do you really think someone in that price range cares if the it costs $53,000 or $54,000?

xero:

"the only reason the E320 Bluetec can be nearly as fast as the E350 is because the 3.5L in the E350 is damn weak to begin with"

really? a spacious sedan that does 0-60 in the 6s is weak? besides, people don't buy a conservative luxury sedan like an E-class for speed.

deboost all you like guys.

doesn't change the fact that diesels dominate in luxury cars (mercedes, bmw and audi diesels) with hundreds of thousand sold each year while hybrids continue to disappoint (lexus GS and LS) and sell tiny volume.

The bluetec stuff adds some weight and saps a bit of power, so in Europe the 320cdi is 0.1 seconds quicker to 60.
If they do introduced the E350 cgi (very likely) i think it is also likely that the 320cdi will receive a small power boost.

As far as diesel vs petrol performance goes, in heavier cars diesel's torque advantages shows up, so in in the X5 and X3, ML, E class, A6, A5, 7 series, S class etc, the 3.0-ish diesels they come with are quicker or very close in performance to the 3.0-3.5 petrols.

I'm not arguing against hybrids as such, just why should Europeans buy them when the diesels are so good?

hybrids are eventually going to get cheaper the more we buy. volume equals less cost and also the camry hybrid offers a lot more than the regular camry like toyfan stated.

P.S. Toyota and Honda hybrid batteries are fully recyclable some people still don't know they are.

"hybrids are eventually going to get cheaper the more we buy"

UNCATEGORICALLY WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are already causing irreversible damage in 3rd world countries where many of the extremely rare elements used in the motors (& batteries) are mined and smelted.
An INCREASE in hybrid production will drive these rare metal costs UP rapidly, and the cost delta of hybrids will be driven from a few thousand dollars to tens of thousands of dollars.

If the hybrid cost $15,000 more would it sell?
No.
Thankfully, hybrids, by their own rapid (and irresponsible) depletion of our planets rarest resources, will price themselves as a marginal technology. Thank heaven for that!

Anyone who can't understand this needs to take a basic high-school economics class ... or look at rare-earth metal prices over the past 1/2 decade.

I could care less about gas mileage. I drive about 15,000 miles per year and I bought a vehicle that I enjoy driving. That is what it is all about, why buy something that is boring? i drive a 2007 BMW 335i sedan BTW, loaded.

2ndBimmer:
Good choice of cars.
A combination of luxury, performance, and still fuel-efficient.
Ignore the whining of the hybrid fan-boys ... they should be snarking after the 6-litre V8 SUV drivers, not someone with a fast and frugal 3-series

honda is gonna go both ways suprisingly, going diesel from the accord up and hybrid from the civic dwn.

43LE: I normally agree with you, but this is not a cost argument based on economies of scale. Read my post above. This is a competition between car-makers for materials that are in limited supply already.

As a comparison, suppose that you could save gas with a car made from gold and diamonds. Would you argue that increased demand for gold and diamonds will drive their prices down?

We are talking about materials that are RARER than gold and diamonds here.

I calculate (at $3 a gallon, more realistic, and still probably under-estimating with oil at $95 a barrel) savings of about $400 a year. Since, with comparable equipment, the Camry Hybrid is really about $2000 more than the non-hybrid, that's only a 5 year wait for a re-coup on your investment. How long does it take to re-coup the investment on that Nav that becomes outdated in 2 years, or the leather that cracks, or the myriad other frivolous options (heated mirrors, wood trim, DVD entertainment).

Gas is only going up, and the cost of hybrid as an option is only going down. But haters will never accept this. Let's just wait for the diesels. Oh yeah, delayed again (still too dirty), and last I checked diesel was once again about 30-40 cents higher per gallon.

I do ROI assessment (Return On Investment) analysis at work all the time. After I run the estimated numbers, I always put a category for "Intangible Value." With Hybrids, the intangible value is the simple fact that you now have a car sitting in your garage that you will be more willing to drive on weekends and other discretionary trips. This is just not captured in some staid Wall Street analysis based on fixed miles. Want to make a 2 hour drive to the mountains or ocean? If it will cost you $45 you are more likely to do it than if it costs $95 in the big SUV.

Isn't that what cars are all about...Freedom?

Hybrids are crap...bring on the diesels. Still don't understand the point of hybrids.

the point is largely to be politically correct. sad.

... and politically correct is based on evaluation of the cost AFTER it is built. The "pro-hybrid" group seems to think these exotic-technology items grow on trees or something. I can't believe that so many people can be so stupid?????
Or maybe they just don't want to know about the environmental damage that they're doing, as long its not in their back-yard.

huu76: when you're old enough to drive, try a diesel.
Once you've driven a diesel, you'll never go back to those inferior gasoline-powered engines.

and this is why the European equivalent of the Sierra club says that the most environmentally friendly family sedan that you can buy is the Passat TDI ????????

Diesel engines are predonimantly cast-iron ... the lowest cost material to recycle. Just one of the many factors that American comparisons haven't factored in.

You must be naive to believe in these numbers. Camry: 3,680 vs. Mini 2,679 lbs.

Toyota has a reputation for overestimating the hybrid benefit... Use your common sense instead. The 1.6 litre Mini actually beats the 1.5 litre Prius Hybrid in real world conditions due to its physical advantage.

Toyota Camry MPG promise: 33/34
Mini MPG promise: 36/29
Mini One Diesel MPG promise: 45/50

One last number: the VW Passat TDI MPG promise: 35/45

The only use for a hybrid is the fact that you use less gas. I could care less if it pollutes less. But if it takes several years to pay off the difference, you may as well get a regular car with more horsepower.

It seems that no one person has mentioned the wheelbarrow sized tires that the Toytie hibrid employs don't last worth a hoot at highway speeds . I person I know bought one of these things on a promise of fanatastic gas milage only to be disapointed by the short life that the tires deliver and the less than delivered hy. milage . Turn on the air conditioner and the milage gets worse yet. Fuel oil powered cars are the way to go is the way to go if fuel mileage is a top priority

009 did this analysis before. The spreadsheet I created about that time out of curiosity (which includes time value of money and gas prices rising at approximatly he rate of inflation) shows about 14 years for payout.

Their number assumes flat gas prices for the next 17 years- a really bad assumption.

By the way Rupert at $8.00/gal with everything else the same (which may not be correct or realiztic- as the prices of the vehicles would be different) it would take about 3.5 years.

3.5 years is still a long time...

"realistic-the"

The Camry Hybrid would probably make a great taxi! Driven stop-and-go 24/7 is the only place this technology makes sense.

For personal transportation, lets check with the 1/2 BILLION residents of Europe who drive cars in the real-world (not some syntehtic EPA test), and where gas is $8 a gallon.

Diesel sales: pushing past 50%

Hybrid sales: < 1% of 1%

Tell me that 1/2 billion people are wrong and hybrid is a better buy!

huu will be along shortly to tell us all that in fact 1/2 billions Europeans are wrong, and he is right, and Europeans are snobs and idiots.

!!!! I almost fell off my chair !!!!
Yes, where is Huu when we need his informative comments?

Hybrids would make excellent taxis, especially diesel-hybrids. This technology is perfectly suited for their kind of driving, which is mostly within urban environments.

You're right Bill.
The diesel-electric hybrids are starting to show up at the car shows already. its the obvious "next thing" in hybrid technology. But will the extra efficiency of the hybrid drivetrain offset its extra mass?

Hi all,

I worked for an Environmental Agency... I can tell you that Diesel IF t's clean would be a better alternative. Also, their are a few diesel hybrids in the works - expect 100 mpg from these Euro developments.

There are a few reports carried out by EPA comparing different fuel types. Diesels engines cost more and are heavier (more metal goes into to them because of how they work) - so they tend to be stronger engines and last longer than gas engines.

Hybrids are great, but they make no sense in Europe. One would argue that they make no sense in the USA as well, but the perception of diesel cars was ruined in the 80's by a terrible diesel made by one of the big 3 (believe it was GM).

Why they make no sense in EU.

EU is many, many, many diesel options to go up against the Prius. The Honda and EVEN the TOYOTA diesels offer same fuel economy as the Prius. Plus, they are more durable - so it's a no brainer. Many Europeans are afraid of future cost of replacing fuel cell. Remember the fuel cell is rated 7-10 years. A diesel will be chugging along long after that and is less complex electronically than a hybrid.

When one looks at the new diesel engines, it's evident that they offer comparable emmision levels to hybrids - with Mercedes leading the way with the 'water only' emmission level. So one has a tough time justifying has hybrids - perhaps it's be a different case when the diesel hybrids come out.

Excellent post.

Too bad the Toyota lovers will call you a liar...

Sedaine: Thank-you for an intelligent and informed post.
Unfortunately, that is not appreciated by the hybrid fans, so prepare to be flamed.
But don't take it personally ... none of the idiots trashing diesel power have even driven a modern diesel car. (Likely some have ridden in a TDI VW or CDI Benz without knowing it...)

huu,
The Liberty is a POS (and discontinued, but the new Grand Cherokee has a Benz diesel and should be better)
The Dodge truck is the old technology.

What's your problem with the Jetta TDI?
Did you see that report saying that if 1/2 the single-occupant SUV commuter vehicles were replaced with Jetta TDIs that the US would not have to import ANY Arab oil?

Oh ... that bogus fuel-economy site is another hybrid marketing gimmick. Doesn't it compare fictitious EPA ratings rather than the REAL fuel consumption of cars driven on this planet?

"yes, half a billion Europeans are wrong as they choose diesels simply because it's cheaper, not because they give two hoots about the environment when it's so much easy just to blame the United States."

HUU: You're extreme ignorance is so over-whelming ... why don't you just put up a post saying "I'm totally ignorant of the world!" ???????????

German emissions are driven by the Green Party. Europeanss are so much MORE environmentally conscious ... they are decades ahead of the US in environmental awareness, recycling, etc.
And that concern is driven into law over there.

Why don't you read something other than Toyota brochures for a change? Get a life man!

If you want to save gas, get a motorcycle. If you want to save the environment get a bicycle, get bus pass, walk and carbon offset your life.

Hypebrid is NOT the magic bullet.

Under the current technologies diesels are still by far the better way to go, however I believe that in the future hybrid will take over with plug-in hybrids and eventually electric cars hybrid is only as step between the two.

THERE IS A BETTER WAY TO MAKE A HYBRID INSTEAD OF USEING AN ELECTRIC MOTOR TO HELP OUT THE GASOLINE ENGINE USE THE ELECTRIC MOTOR AS THE MAIN DRIVE AND USE EITHER A GASOLINE OR DIESEL ONE OR TWO CYLINDER ENGINE TO TURN A GENERATOR THAT WILL KEEP THE MAIN BATTERY CHARGED THIS IS SIMILAR TO THE WAY A DIESEL LOCOMOTIVE WORKS.