NEW: Lexus LS600hL vs. Audi A8L 4.2TDI

So the LEXUS is far more luxurious and about as efficient, but cost quite a bit more...

No surprise given the age of the current Audi A8 platform, though I do love what they've done with the TDI.

The real test will be to see what Audi has in store for the next gen Audi A8 TDI...

The Lexus is far more luxurious? The article said the Audi was "better designed from superior materials".

The Lexus is about as efficient? The article said the Audi averaged 31.5mpg, the Lexus 19.4mpg. That's 12.1mpg more, which is 60% better. That's not "about as efficient".

The Audi also costs £20k less, and was equal in performance (and was actually quicker 0-60). And has a 52% larger trunk. And according to the article "earns an easy victory here" in this comparison.

The spec of the A8L W12 compare more accuratly to what the LS600H L ....
LS 600h L A8 L W12
(L/100 km) 10.6 / 9.1 16 / 8.9
Power(Hp@RPM) 438 @ 6400 450 @ 6200
Torque 385 @ 4000 428 @ 4000
0-100 km/h (s) 5.6 5.0

and the LS600H would have cost less
If you think it doesn't compare to the W12 ...

Regarding the LEXUS LS600h

"Add this sublime comfort to the astonishing standard equipment and hi-tech underpinnings, and it’s clear to see why this is the ultimate Lexus"

"As you would expect in a Lexus, the quality of the interior is faultless – the cabin is impeccably trimmed, and fit and finish is superb"

"However, mechanical refinement is unrivalled. Road and engine noise is remarkably subdued – a reading of 63dB at 70mph is one of the lowest we’ve recorded this year – and the hybrid drive functions have been meticulously integrated."

"The Audi doesn’t come close to matching the Lexus’s standard kit tally"

Those are all quotes from this very article in reference to the LEXUS LS600h.

Simply because they feel that the Audi has a greater, "sense of occasion" doesn't make it the more luxurious of the two.

To each their own...

"to each their own"? Seriously? Ok, if "your own" means spending $100k+ on a car that literally does absolutely nothing better than its $80k competitors and does the majority of things WORSE, including comparisons its own "lower" sibling, then yes, certainly, spend your $100k on the LS600h. Because Lord knows the economy needs the money, and obviously you are a retard who shouldn't be making monetary decisions of that magnitude in the first place.

When you're spending 80k + on an automobile, You Buy What You Darned Well Please, and Don't Care One Bit About What Others Think!

da:

did you seriously just say this? "When you're spending 80k + on an automobile, You Buy What You Darned Well Please, and Don't Care One Bit About What Others Think!"

um, people buy flagship cars precisely because it makes a statement. it says "i can and will have only the best." cars like an S600 basically softly say "get the f*ck out my way."

With that typed...

Why Should That Mentality Not Extend To Someone Wants To Say,

I Wanted The Finest Asian Designed/Engineered/Manufactured Luxury Vehicle Available, AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS!

- The Bias Here Is That You People Seem To Believe That Simply Because You Don't Find The LEXUS LS600h desirable, NO ONE ELSE CAN/SHOULD.

There are MANY consumers who consider LEXUS the absolute epitome of luxury, and will gladly pay to have the Best of the Breed.

Get Over Yourselves Already... GEEZ!

First place: Audi S8 :)

Ninth place: Lexus LS600 :(

LOL!!! MidEngine!

Engineering failure??? The LS? The Society of Automotive Engineers gave the award to the LS for the BEST engineered VEHICLE of 2007.

http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=PAPER&PROD_CD=1-115-4-88

You might want to check your facts before you confuse "the dumb masses" with more of your uniformed, biased, wanker-rubbish propaganda!

What is the Society of Automotive Engineers???

Ever heard of SAE? I hope you are joking. The Anti-Lexus blinders are on again.

Deactivate, S4, DEACTIVATE!!!

hyundai:

please educate us. what are the qualification requirements for members of the SAE? and what are their criteria for judging cars?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Automotive_Engineers

Surely, their average member is a far better judge of engineering quality in cars than either you or MidEngine.

I am not going to "educate" you but, am willing to say that you are just making yourself look like a prick.

Ooooh, how about you apply to the SAE and see if you get accepted!

I am not arguing anything but the engineering aspect of the LS. I personally like the A8 and S-Class more than the LS. HOWEVER, I still like the Lexus LS.

Well, you know what? I don't think I can argue with somebody who's job it is to post hate on Lexus for every single article published out there. What can I say, you are a professional, MidEngine! You take pride in your work!

So the Lexus lost because it cost quite a bit more just like how the 335i lost to G35.

actually no, the Lxus lost because IN ADDITION to being £20k more expensive, it also was matched or beaten in performance by the Audi, was beaten in fuel economy by 60% by the Audi, and the Audi was "better designed from superior materials".

All that PLUS the £20k higher price is why the Audi "earns an easy victory here".

528i:

can you read? the lexus lost because:

"This poor result, combined with the fact the Lexus costs so much, means the Audi A8 earns an easy victory here. Not only is it £20,000 cheaper, it’s also better designed from superior materials, just as fast and around 10mpg more efficient."

add that "it comes across as being rather bland" and the several year old audi bests the brand new LS600.

LS600hL looks so much better than the A8.

BTW LS600hL should be compared to the A8 W12 and not this £20,000 cheaper version.

Pointless comparison

JUGNU

why, because Lexus says it should be? When the Lexus performs like the 12-cylinder versions of the competition then it can compare to them. In this case the diesel cost less, performed better, and got much better fuel economy. Sounds like an ass whupping to me.

Yes because Lexus said so. The A8 isn't as luxury-oriented as the LS600hL. Lexus said the primary motives behind even building the car was to rival the V12 variants of their German counterparts. You Euro-crazed freaks are so stuck up that you can't even admit that. No. And this only happens when it comes to Lexus. No one sits here and says the C-Class really competes with the Nissan Altima because of its lowly horsepower/performance ratings, do they? Mercedes says the C-Class competes with the 3-Series, A4, IS and G.

fine, Will, if "because Lexus says so" is good enough, then once again they failed miserably at making the car a worthwhile alternative to the vehicles they were trying to beat. Every single article comparing the LS600h to the competition has said the same thing -- "it's not as fast as it should be, fuel economy is nothing special, can't even one up the LS460, not worth the premium, etc." Every... single... article... So if that's the best that Lexus can do, they failed, period. And keep in mind that the same magazines that are saying the LS600h isn't as good as the LS460 also basically universally ranked the LS460 DEAD LAST in its segment.

That isn't just us "Lexus haters" being unfair to poor old Lexus, Will, that's article after article after article. And you know what? I'm sure Lexus will sell every LS600h they make, to posers wanting to pretend they're saving the earth, saving gas, etc. And to old rich people who like the drive of Lexus land yachts. That's great marketing, and Lexus has that in spades. What they don't have with the LS600h is a great car to back that up. And that isn't our fault, it's Lexus's.

jugnu:

pointless? the audi is better looking, better designed, equally as fast and 10mpg more efficient. please explain.

will:

"Lexus said the primary motives behind even building the car was to rival the V12 variants of their German counterparts"

well, lexus failed at that goal. the reason the LS isn't being compared to the V12 sedans is that it would be totally out of its league.

motor trend just compared the LS600 to the S550, quattroporte and super v8. it came in dead last against those for "underdelivering on performance, luxury and fuel economy". so how could it possibly take on the V12 super-sedans?

please feel free to explain.

"Lexus said the primary motives behind even building the car was to rival the V12 variants of their German counterparts. You Euro-crazed freaks are so stuck up that you can't even admit that."

NO... it would be completely unfair to compare the LS600hL to the twelve-cylinder sedans. They're inherently superior. Lexus made a loser with this car--it can't even compete with eight-cylinder models. Think about it: the A8L 4.2 (petrol) is just as quick as the hybrid (0-60 in 5.8), gets just about the same mileage and is much more fun to drive because it weighs over 600lbs less (800lbs less?). It also costs $30K less. There is no point in trying to justify the LS600hL. It is not something you buy because of practicality; unfortunately for Lexus, it's not attractive as an emotional purchase, either. This is its downfall. It's neither fun nor frugal.

"No one sits here and says the C-Class really competes with the Nissan Altima because of its lowly horsepower/performance ratings, do they?"

Nobody is comparing the LS600hL to a car that's not in its class in this article. The A8 very well competes with the LS and vice versa. However, they just used better-matched engine variants for the comparison.

JUGNU, this is a bad picture of the A8--I put it in there expecting comments like that. If you want to see a good one, here you go:

http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/7/s/N/jf_a8_g_frt.jpg

You know as well as anyone that the A8L is a gorgeous sedan.

Pointless EXACTLY!

If it can't even beat the lower trim level Audi then why bother being humiliated by the V12?

What tree-hugger looking for a frugal luxury car would pay $20K more when they can get a better performing car, with better gas mileage and finer interior???

You would have to be either brain-washed stupid or simply ignorant.

The LS600hL was designed to go against other marques V12 powered vehicles.
This comparison fails to mention this.

then it was designed poorly, because thus far in every comparison test it has failed to even match its own V8 sibling, let alone match up with the hi-po versions of the competitors.

It has a V8 and an electric motor so why would someone outside Lexus compare a vehicle with a V8 to other cars with a V12. So let me get this straight, if you make a motor with similar HP rating, you can claim it goes against whatever other competitors you think.

Lexus said it was designed to go against the V12 competition. Although I am suspect to that 0-60time.

The LS600h was designed to take on the German V12 sedans? How come it fails to even hang with their V8 versions then?

Get real, David99, the LS600h is simply a marketing tool. I'd rather spend my money on an LS460 because I know I am getting a good luxury car, not some car that hasn't found its true purpose (LS600h) and which was so overhyped by Lexus own marketing campaigns.

Too bad that the Lexus FAILED SO MISERABLY on every comparison point.

:(

david:


just in case you didn't read above....

well, lexus failed at that goal. the reason the LS isn't being compared to the V12 sedans is that it would be totally out of its league.

motor trend just compared the LS600 to the S550, quattroporte and super v8. it came in dead last against those for "underdelivering on performance, luxury and fuel economy". so how could it possibly take on the V12 super-sedans?

please feel free to explain.

I believe the point of the comparison is to match it against other frugal engined cars. If the Lexus can't even match that what is the point of even comparing it to the V12s?

For sake of argument, lets say they did compare it to the Audi V12. The Lexus would have probably won the mpg by a narrow margin. 19mpg for a hybrid is incredibly lame if you ask ANYONE that has half a brain of auto knowledge. However, in the luxury, performance categories it would have been humiliated given that the "lowly" 8-cyl TDI Audi already clearly won that competition.

Conclusion, it can't compete in the category it was meant to compete AND it even gets trashed in the lower trim category by a superior Audi that costs less.

As soon as I saw that they called it a "saloon" I knew the A8 would win. That's a European word, just like the A8 is a European car.

well, the LS600h has lost in every American magazine I've seen as well, so it's hardly homerism on the part of the Europeans. Maybe the LS will win in a Japanese magazine, because it sure is getting its ass handed to it everywhere else.

do you have a point you'd like to make?

JRobUSC -
That must be why the LS won World Car for 2007, because it gets it's butt whooped with all of the competition.

lexusis350... the LS460 won WCOTY '07, not the LS600hL, which was introduced as a 2008 model. Believe me, it won't win.

It looks the exact same and if anything, it's better.

So what are you saying, WCOTY is decided by looks alone??? They are smarter than that. This car is NOT better and it does NOT deserve the award.

Here's a good saying: there are some cars, like the Porsche 911 or Audi R8, for example, that don't overwhelm their owners with technology. Instead, they stand for more than the sums of their parts--they make the owner happy and satisfied without being overly complicated. On the other hand, the LSh is overall less than the sum of its parts. Its spec sheet (excluding gas mileage/acceleration) looks VERY impressive... but then you drive it and it's disappointing.

The audi is a cleaner, much more reliable and worth-while. This is clearly seen in the comparo...

Engine practicality is no matter, as the w12 is a reputable contender towards any challenger.

Its not fair or even sensible comparing the LS600 to the all-aluminum A8. A better comparo would be the 745d, bringing the weight gap closer.

Needless to say, even ugliest Bimmer on earth would win hands down in the driving efficiency competition.

If I remember correctly, the A8 is less than 100lbs lighter than the 7 Series, due to its AWD.

Oh ok, so when buying a car you're telling me you would rationalize that oh yeah I can't buy this better car because it has an unfair advantage in weight? What kind of logic is that? (where's the EJECT button?)

This auto shows the true motivation of Lexus - a marketing concept pure and simple. MPG of less than 20 for a "hybrid" - an embarrassment.

Too bad that there will be mindless buyers that get sucked in to this. They think they are buying prestige while appeasing their "Save the Earth" sentiments , meanwhile the rest of us are smiling to ourselves knowingly-Saps!!

BTW- the AUDI is hands down a much more impressive vehicle-no matter how old this version is.

ICON: I doubt that many will get sucked into buying this white elephant. You need a rare combination of lots of $$$ and no brains ... I'm sure Paris Hilton has one on order.

This car is proof that Toyota needs to retreat back to their old, successful methods: copying the Germans

I can't wait to see the relative sales figures of these 2 models. Toyota will can it and bury it so fast, they'll be denying that there ever was an LS600hl within a year.

This is such an enormous embarassment for Toyota. I'll bet the VP who okay'd this albatross gets canned too!

Yup, just like Lexus doesn't run TV ads about self-parking since it's turned out to be one big boondoggle.

What a sham and I had hopes for this big box car :(

True Diesel, but I have seen some Octogenarians in Newport Beach tooling around in them..Oh well.

BTW - Don't Japanese executives who commit such an embarrassment usually comit Hari-Kiri instead of getting fired.:}

This car was an exercise in premium luxury first and foremost, but of course all the haters here want to put the focus of their misguided criticism on the performance of the vehicle. Lexus took a DIFFERENT route than all of their competition. offering a hybrid in a class dominated by gas-guzzlers, and people can't seem to handle that. Yes, the LS600hL was built to compete with the V12 variants of their German competition, NOT all the diesel variants. Most here are just hybrid haters, which are a rare and special breed among the ignorant.

But Autoexpress's point (and mine) is that the European version of the LS600 makes no sense at all, as it is very slow (0-62 in 6.3 seconds), so acceleration doesn't match V12 rivals at all. And above that the fuel economy sucks (our '99 740i gets 23 UK combined), so what's the point of a heavy, slow, fuel hungry car when you can get a lighter, faster, more fuel efficient car for over 40000 dollars less, with the same luxury and more space???!
You don't compare a 525 with an E500 because it's different, do you? You compare it with the model with equal or near equal performance. And the model with equal or near equal performance to the LS600h is the A8 4.2 tdi, which so happens to trounce the LS in nearly every single field.

And the A8 has double the payload capacity of the LS!!!
It beats in 0-60, 30-50 and 50-70 in gear acceleration...bigger boot, twice the range, costs 1000 pounds less per year to fuel, lower insurance...why buy the LS at all? For a hybrid badge? For half a ton more weight? For the auto parking?

I'm not hating on hybrids at all, I'm pointing out how useless the 600h is in the British market.

I for one, I am not a "hybrid hater", I love the premise. I just feel that this particular vehicle simply underwelms especially considering its hype.

Every single article talks about how its not as fast as they thought it would be. Its expensive, it has no trunk space, and its fuel economy is horrible for a hybrid. Sure its luxurious, but so's the LS460. The main reason someone would buy a hybrid is for fuel efficency and in this case the TDI is far more fuel efficent for less money. I simply don't understand the argument for the LS600h. It simply fails in its main purpose so why would you want it? I don't even think its a good marketing or promotional tool because of its total lack of execution. As good as Lexus is this must be an embarrassment.

What you are doing IS comparing a 525 to an E500. Just in this case, Mercedes (Lexus) didn't inject enough performance into the E500 (LS600hL) to justify its moniker. But anyways, why wouldn't you? If the 525 are relatively the same size, why not justify in your own mind the purchase of a 525 if it costs less, drives a little better, and is a little more frugal than the E500? Because it's comparing oranges to tangerines, that's why.

I think he is right in making the point that this is a car that was created to compete in an ultra-exclusive market segment, where most buyers actually couldn't care any less about fuel economy or frugal-ness. I guess I differ from most here in that I compare cars based on price primarily above everything else. The LS600 is in the price range and size of the S600, 760Li, and A8 W12. The LS600h does get better emissions and fuel economy than all those cars, which I have a feeling is the reason why most here seem to want to bash this car by saying it doesn't compete on performance, therefore it doesn't compete at all.

Rupert, here in Germany Lexus sales are extremely bad.

Especially the SC430 and GS300/GS430 don't sell. Hybrid-hype is a bit over, GS450h and RX400h are not popular here. Most of the people buy an X5 3.0d or Q7.
But the biggest joke so far has to be the LS600. I have a leaflet in my hands that claims the LS600 is more "sporty" yet in is 0.6 seconds SLOWER to 100 kmh than a normal LS460.

will:

this is just a sad excuse for lexus not living up to the promises it made about the LS600.

at $100,000, a sedan should DO ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING WELL. the LS doesn't, that's why mercedes sells more than 10x as many $100,000+ S-classes as lexus sells LS600s.

"Sure its luxurious, but so's the LS460. The main reason someone would buy a hybrid is for fuel efficency and in this case the TDI is far more fuel efficent for less money. I simply don't understand the argument for the LS600h. It simply fails in its main purpose so why would you want it? I don't even think its a good marketing or promotional tool because of its total lack of execution. As good as Lexus is this must be an embarrassment."

This sums it up perfectly, golfer. Bravo.

Yes, the LS600hL is luxurious, but so is the LS460L. They have nearly identical features and available options--if you want to pay $30K more for LED headlamps and 19" wheels, well... that's for you to decide.

Yes, the LS600hL is adequately fast, but it's slower than all available eight-cylinder luxury sedans, including the LS460L; the twelve-cylinder sedans simply should not be compared--it would be unfair.

Yes, the LS600hL saves a bit of gas, but its fuel efficiency is only less than or equal to that of its eight-cylinder competition, let alone the diesels.

It also weighs 700lbs more than the LS460L, commands $32,000 more than a comparably-equipped LS460L and is less fun to drive than an LS460L with the Touring Package.

So, again, please tell us why this vehicle is worth buying.

AudiLexus,
Just because someone builds a $100K Hyundai to compete with a Mercedes S-Class it doesn't mean its a worthy competitor. The indirect point here is that the LS600h is not worth the price range its been priced at since it can't even beat a lower trim Audi V8 TDI. With 19mpg it may have beat the V12s but by a very narrow margin. 19 mpg is absolutely nothing to brag about. You say that people willing to pay this kind of money shouldn't care about mpg but should buy this car?! make up your mind. You either don't care about mpg and go for the performance (where Lexus gets trounced) or you DO care about mpg (where Lexus again gets trounced by the TDI). Either way, you loose.

"Yes, the LS600hL saves a bit of gas, but its fuel efficiency is only less than or equal to that of its eight-cylinder competition, let alone the diesels."

Saves a bit of gas? Every test it has entered it consumed 13 to 14 litres of fuel per 100 km. That's about the same as the German 3 with V8 engines. Hybrid works wel in town but every where else it's complete rubbish. On the autobahn it uses more than 20 litres per 100 km above 180 kmh. That's rubbish!

Give me a break, that review has bias written all over it. The Lexus LS right now is currently the best looking car in it segment, no if or but.

if and but.

I don't think it's the best looking, it's sleek and smooth sure, but IMO the S class and A8 are better looking.

Last place in any comparison, inferior materials, disappointing...yeah, that sounds like the description of just about any Lexus car... obviously including the "flags**t" LS600hL.

the LS is nice, but not $100,000 nice. it looks far to common in this crowd.

In this class I would rank them in the following order:

1)Lexus LS
2)Audi A8
3)MB S-Class
4)BMW 7-Series

Riight, like anybody cares about your ranking.

Now that ranking is a surprise...

Obvisouly you do, that why you are responing to my post. Give it a rest Whinnie boy, Japan can make vechicles that rival or beat the German.

Just not in this case obviously.

"Japan can make vechicles that rival or beat the German." Lexusnut

This is what we heard for the last 20 years...but we are still waiting for those quality Japanese cars to come on the market. Is it ever going to happen? Will the Germans ever going to have real competition(from Japan) when it comes to building cars?

I'm waiting to see the next Infiniti Q45 (rumered Q50) After the G sedan/coupe, M, EX and the FX plus seeing what the competition is doing I don't think they're going to fool around. It should be interesting.

The diesel Audi was way quicker and got much, much better fuel economy.

the luxury aspects of both cars are both excellent

Funny to see another Lexus vs. German thread...haha..

This game will never end.

Any Lexus fan who rates this car with their other products is dragging down all the other, "good" offerings from Lexus.

The LS600HL is the answer to a question that nobody asked.
If you don't admit that this car is a huge mistake, then you tarnish all Lexus models.

Huh the Audi might be cheaper and may produce more mpg than the Lexus, but the Lexus LS600H is more about Luxury and Style (and i know that A8 has been the top among the competition of S class, 7 Series, and even LS Lexus, but this new LS has taken everything up a notch with by matching the most high tech and most prestigious car of the bunch the S class in terms of technology, luxury, and refinement, though probably not performance, but it aces even the S class in terms of more environmentally friendly emissions). I know that the A8 is an awesome car, but i think this diesel version costs much less than the premium petrol model, and diesel always gives much better mileage than petrol and also diesels are environmentally very polluting. So first of all this comparison is unfair because obviously they are comparing a cheaper version of the A8, a diesel that produces extravagant mpgs (just like any other diesel), to the premium version of the LS, they should have compared the petrol version of the A8, and then the results could have been comparable, but being a diesel, the TDi version is much cheaper and obviously gives better mileage.

And Europeans don't seem to have understood the point of LS 600H, it is not about mpg it is about cleaner emission and safer environment propaganda.

You're talking rubbish. It sounds like a lame excuse to give credibility to the LS600h.

First this car was made to perform with the German V12's while getting the fuel economy of a V6.

THAT FAILED MISERABLY.

Now you guys claim its about emissions? Give me a break. The LS600h get's poor fuel economy, how do you expect it to be low on emissions? The more fuel you burn, the more you pollute. The emissions figures Lexus gives are based on the fuel economy ratings they give for the LS600h - which NOBODY has even gotten close to achieving.

Bottom line is that the LS600h is an overhyped failure. Give me an LS460 anyday. At least that car doesn't pretend to be "green".

"i think this diesel version costs much less than the premium petrol model, and diesel always gives much better mileage than petrol and also diesels are environmentally very polluting. So first of all this comparison is unfair because obviously they are comparing a cheaper version of the A8, a diesel that produces extravagant mpgs (just like any other diesel), to the premium version of the LS, they should have compared the petrol version of the A8, and then the results could have been comparable, but being a diesel, the TDi version is much cheaper and obviously gives better mileage."

The A8 4.2TDI actually costs considerably more than the A8 4.2 petrol in the UK and other European countries. On the German website, it's 5,000 Euros more; for some reason, you can't currently build an A8 on the UK site.

The thing you're missing is that the A8 TDI not only offers significantly better mileage than the LS600hL--but it's also faster, just as luxurious and just as stylish. What is not getting through to you? The LS600hL SHOULD get better mileage, but instead it's a huge failure. It does NOTHING well. It's not worth anyone's time or money.

The Diesel always costs more than the petrol model of the same car.

1) Lexus LS460
9999999) Audi A8

LMAO. I'm sorry. I don't "hate" Lexus but this is funny/embarassing for them. They build a car to compete with the 12's that can't compete and then say it's about luxury not power, as if the others aren't luxurious. So basically what you get is a very expensive LS with no trunk space that is bested in all categories by a model near the end of it's cycle. Was that Lexus' intent? I doubt it. Now those diesel hybrids being worked on in Germany. They sound promising.

Could anyone who understands this Lexus engine please explain it's benefits. I honestly can't see any.

It's about emissions! The people who buy the LS600h care about emissions! Even if this car gets 19 mpg, it still emits the cleanest emission ratings in this class! Don't you get it? The Lexus LS600h is saving the planet!

Bill,

You may be wasting your time here.

This place is so inundated with German Fan-Boys that NO Japanese vehicle, no matter how beautifully designed/engineered/executed, will ever get any respect from this lot.

This is simply TRUTH from someone who drives two German vehicles (E46/M3 and E54/X5 4.8is), yet is not so ignorant as to believe that they are the be-all/end-all of automotive design/technology...

Because They Aren't!

All that really matters is that LEXUS will sell exponentially more LS-Series vehicles in a single year than AUDI will during the entire lifespan of any given generation of the (truly wonderful) A8 Series, and those LS Series owners will be more than happy/satisfied with their purchases both during the ownership period, as well as when it comes time to trade it/sell it (i.e. great resale value).

The latter being something something NO AUDI owner can (honestly) claim.

Though I do realize you are one of the aforementioned...

I found this an opportune moment to turn your sarcastic post into something relevant, positive, and TRUE.

DaHarder, if a Japanese vehicle is worth commending, it will be commended! The LS460L is a fantastic vehicle that has top-notch engineering and all of the latest luxuries.

But if you can't see how illogical the LS600hL is, well, God help you. You may just be trying to sound "un-biased," but as much as we are denying this car's justification, the Lexus fanboys are touting it to be better than all of the competition. I hope you can see that this is simply not true. What is well-done about a sedan that gets worse mileage, worse performance and less space than its sibling that costs $30K less? Never mind the diesels, I'm just talking about the LS460L. WHAT is it that YOU see in this car??? It's classy and all, but it's not a smart car to buy! It is basically incompetent--for the price, I would want something better!

I really don't care one iota about whether you feel the need to Figure me Out (F.O.) or not...

Just makes sure that you do the other F. O. while in the process!

And JRobUSc ONLY quote what was essential to try and substantiate his argument, but failed to quote the following which was written about the LEXUS:

"Add this sublime comfort to the astonishing standard equipment and hi-tech underpinnings, and it’s clear to see why this is the ultimate Lexus"

"As you would expect in a Lexus, the quality of the interior is faultless – the cabin is impeccably trimmed, and fit and finish is superb"

"However, mechanical refinement is unrivalled. Road and engine noise is remarkably subdued – a reading of 63dB at 70mph is one of the lowest we’ve recorded this year – and the hybrid drive functions have been meticulously integrated."

"The Audi doesn’t come close to matching the Lexus’s standard kit tally"

Those are all quotes from this very article in reference to the LEXUS LS600h.

Simply because they feel that the Audi has a greater, "sense of occasion" doesn't make it the more luxurious of the two.

Note: This place has become so full of One-Sided, Arrogant, Euro-Loving, Fan-Boys that it truly is truly making this blog one of the biggest laughing stocks on all of the internet.

"Simply because they feel that the Audi has a greater, "sense of occasion" doesn't make it the more luxurious of the two."

Not necessarily, DaHarder! The sense of occasion is luxury in itself! If a car makes you feel good, well, that is its greatest luxury. The A8's finer materials and design just give a feel-good factor that the Lexus can't match. That's IMO. You may disagree. But I have a friend who gave up his lease on an A8L last year, and got into an LS460. He's missing the Audi, not only for its performance, but for its beauty. He calls the LS460 "SO boring." No, I am not making this up. I don't think the Lexus is "SO boring," but it's less exciting than the A8.

nice job audi!

the A8 is a gorgeous car that is holding up incredibly well against the newest competitors.

This is so stupid. WHY do so many of you care to tell anyone that the LS600hL is a failure? To make yourselves feel better about buying a European car? Kudos to you.

The thing is, the LS600hL doesn't need to be justified, by any means, just as every single other car it was made to compete with. When a buyer decides that he is in the market for a $120K+ full-size luxury sedan, his choices are the gas-guzzling, higher-carbon-emitting S600, 760 and A8 W12 OR, the LS600hL. There doesn't need to be any argument about its value over the LS460. Of course there's no rational reason to buy this car: it's not for the rational. It's so funny how all these people who declare allegiance to European brands and list words such as "exclusivity" and "unjustifiable" as reasons for that allegiance, all of the sudden become economy and value-oriented buyers when it comes to the most-expensive Lexus ever.

Nobody argues about how there's no need to buy the S600 over the S550, nobody argues about how silly it is to opt for a 760 over a 745, yet am LS600 vs. and LS460? Outrage! And you can spare the argument of "performance." You are willing to pay thousands of dollars more for better performance figures on paper, but people aren't allowed to want to pay thousands more for better emissions and fuel economy?

because lexus said it would compete against the V12 flagships in every way...AND provide V6 fuel economy.

it fails to achieve either of those stated goals. in fact, it isn't even superior to the very well priced ls460.

therefore...

WILL: THE LS600HL IS NEITHER A RATIONAL CAR NOR AN EMOTIONAL DESIRABLE CAR. What about that do you not understand?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!? The rationality is nill- it gets mileage that is only slightly better than its twelve-cylinder competition and slightly worse than its eight-cylinder competition. As for emotional appeal (performance, luxury, style): well, the performance isn't there, either. It's significantly heavier than the LS460, and slower than every other eight/twelve-cylinder car in this class. Luxury? Everything you can get in this car is available in the LS460L for $23K less, loaded--and thats vs. a base LS600hL, I'm not going to touch on the loaded model. Styling? Well, that's up to you. But if you were buying your $120K sedan based only on style, I think I you know it would be the Maserati Quattroporte.

*I think you know...

Will-denial must be a comfortable place for you to reside.

There have been many cogent and excellent posts on why this "Superior" auto is a marketing and real world disaster(disappointment-if that is too strong).

You can't be intellectually honest and admit that this auto and its intended benefits are replete with crediblity issues.

If you want to hang your hat on low Emissions as your only refuge for justifying this marketing ploy- than I suggest you stick with the Audi/Merc etc alternatives and use any money saved to purchase your carbon offsets-

There. Issue solved. You get a great ride that you can be proud of and your environmental sensibilities have been assuaged.

will, you hit the nail on the head!

the criticisms are ALL based on specious and/or invalid premises. most cars in this class, even with v12 power, are NOT BOUGHT as "performance" sedans. its ALL about supreme comfort and secondarily prestige. even fuel efficiency is IRRELEVENT!

further, most will ONLY see duty as chaffeur driven limos in URBAN and suburban locales. (flying is more suitable on longer distances, with those for whom time is money).

in these situations, the LS600hL WOULD display All of it's advantages. and these same environments would also be where MINIMAL POLLUTION would also be most appreciated.

MANY test situations can be set up to show up ALL the WEAK points of this car. and it seems that's EXACTLY what this review did. but NONE will be applicable for the likely ACTUAL uses by the cosseted rear seat OWNERS, as mentioned.

lexus will EASILY sell every ls600hl they produce.

Will said it perfectly. The comments from "s4cabriofoxone", "enthusiastx11" are downright rude and reek of the type of low-class people that are not able to afford this car anyway. Why so spiteful? Are you so scared that someone actually can like this car without a "justifiable" reason other than they have the money and they like it?

John, please explain. What is spiteful about my comment? WHY should I buy this car? I am looking at an Audi S8 next year (among other cars), so yes, I can afford it. But why would I get an LS600hL over that?

About luxury, ApexAlex. What does this car offer in luxury and isolation that the standard LS460L does not? I'm honestly curious. LED headlamps and a facial radar detector are not what I would consider luxury features... the LEDs are very cool but they don't do anything to make the owner more comfortable, and the same is true of the facial radar thing.

apex:

"the criticisms are ALL based on specious and/or invalid premises."

now that's the pot calling the kettle black. please do explain why the LS600 is superior to either a diesel in mpg terms OR a v12 flagship in ANY WAY.

the ls600 can't even hold it's own against the ls460. and it just lost the motor trend comparison test to the S550, super V8 and quattroporte.

your blind support of this car is the most specious "argument" of all.

I'm not surprised that a 4 year old Audi design decimated Lexus's flagship. What's surprising though is that the Lexus does not even deliver on what it promises in its ads: V12 power/ performance with better than v6 economy..31.4mpg vs. 19.5mpg is light years away. The lexus gets beaten in every dimension. Handling, braking, acceleration trunk space, Luxury, and economy. What a disgrace!!!!!!!! Audi rules in diesel land.. I remember when Jeremy clarkson drove the A8 4.0 diesel for 800miles averaging approx. 40pmg on a tank of fuel. Amazing!!!!! See below!!

http://my.opera.com/time.magician/blog/show.dml/297087

Just bias.
Just racism.

Look at this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt0KhGJyayM

Brits hate "JAP" car, and hybrid.
They can't do fair judgment.

Rascist Comment?

You better call in Al Sharpton, Quick!!

Idiot.

Yes being a British person I obviously can't stand Japanese things, and obviously don't have any Japanese friends or know any Japanese at all...and I'm obviously going to like the Germans more because we never had a war with them at all...
sarcasm over

If I was going to be anti any country it would probably be Germany, not Japan, but I'm not, because I'm a normal person.

I will surely choose the LS600h.
I don't want to choose the A8L and to always worry about a trouble.

Go to bed-you are delirious and not making any sense.

Jugnu, you're going to see 50 state legal diesels here in the U.S. very soon from BMW, Audi, MB, etc. that obliterate everything the LS600h stands for (along with pretty much every other "performance hybrid", which is what Lexus sells).

Diesel = better fuel economy, better performance, no loss of trunk space, lower cost, etc. Yeah, that sounds like a crappy combination there. Better at everything, lower cost. Good thing Lexus has the marketing team it does here in the U.S. so they can sell these contraptions. Outside of the U.S. where gas is $8/gallon they already know the Lexus hybrids suck. Since American magazines saying the same thing won't convince you, wait until those same diesels make it over here. Then you can stand on your soapbox and explain why the GS450h, LS600h, and RX400h are even remotely worth puschasing, even when compared to their own petrol powered "lower" versions (hint: they aren't).

America paying attention to the environment...you make me laugh huu.
Hummers are clearly so environmentally friendly, and obviously Americans care so much that they all buy small cars rather than having large pick-ups as the best selling vehicles...oh hang on a minute.

"WE actually do more than pay lipservice to the environment."

newsflash: the US is the biggest polluter on the planet. hardly anyone recycles, we live in much larger houses than europeans or asians, our entire lives are air-conditioned, and we drive everywhere. i'm no bleeding heart, but your statement is the total opposite of the truth.

furthermore, far too many of the self-righteous american prius drivers live in giant energy-sucking houses, throw everything away and wouldn't even consider making any changes that compromise their quality of life for the environment.

sadly, everyone is now aware that we have big environmental issues, but hardly anyone wants to sacrifice a bit of their time or comfort to fix things.

JRobusc: you shouldve added longetivity and the amount of TQ in a diesel.

Seriously, who the **** cares about emissions?

actually, we can't take you seriously.

according to you, everyone is biased except when they say something you like.

car & driver is biased toward BMW, except when you quote them for having gotten the fastest 0-60 in the ISF.

europeans are biased against lexus, except when they say they IS350 is a good car.

and apparently, even the japanese are biased against the japanese when they buy more mercedes than lexus.

screaming "bias" is just your way of admitting that you can't make a rational argument for your opinions.

"huu76" Motor Trend did a comparison in their latest issue between the Maserati Quattroporte, Jaguar Super V8, Lexus LS600 & Mercedes S550. They finished in the following order:

1. Maserati
2. Mercedes
3. Jaguar
4. Lexus

They said the Lexus "Overpromises & underdelivers on performance, fuel economy, & even luxury." It was the second most expensive car of the bunch & tied the Benz for slowest in test.

Wow. What is it about the car that upsets everyone? It's clear that there are way more hostile comments from European car fans than there are from the Japanese fans.

If the argument is that the A8 diesel is more environmentally friendly, then why in the Hell would you just stop there? Why not compare the car to a Civic Hybrid to really embarrass its environmental claims. If we really wanted to be truly environmentally sound, we wouldn't be talking about cars at all, would we? The point is that we can have our cake and feel less guilty about it with not just hybrids, but other alternative fuel vehicles as well.

Also, I appreciate a good article concerning a batch of hot-rod performance vehicles, but the vast majority of the ones written on luxury cars are becoming increasingly ridiculous. They never seem to have a clear and concise idea of which aspect has the most merit within the circumstances. "Handling!, no, Acceleration!, no, Technology features!, no, Legroom!, no Luxury features!" Well, which one!!! Lexus certainly has excelled in all of these areas, maybe not all at one time, but they definitely have started putting out more models with better combinations of all those aspects and more. In these reviews, the very aspect the particular Lexus model excels at peculiarly becomes the same aspect that is irrelevant or a "fault" in the criteria. That, my friends, is called *bias,* even when you are subconsciously unaware of it.

What makes the S600 a more “justifiable” choice over an S550? Increased 0-60 and quarter-mile performance ( with the dramatic decrease in emissions and mpg) that the average driver won’t even utilize? The LS600 delivers a more usable and “justifiable” upgrade over both the LS460 and the rest of the competition: lower emissions and better (if not, then just as good) fuel economy.

However what seems to be happening is that all the anti-Lexus crowd is enforcing that the LS600h should be "justified" and that people should buy it for practicality. Guess what guys, that rarely happens in the +$100K market. Buyers within the ultra-premium market, which Lexus has just entered with this car, don't use typical "justifiable" reasons when buying automobiles. They get the privilege to have no explanation at all as to why they bought the car they did, past "I could afford it" or "I just liked it." No car past the economy class is "justifiable," really. Why can't someone buy an LS600h just because they like it?

i wrote a response to Will's post before reading yours here. and it would be fully applicable here too.

John, you and Will seem to be amongst the FEW who realize that the "performance" bias and "value" judgments of all the LOUD AND IGNORANT critics, are simply NOT APPLICABLE with the decisions made in purchasing cars like the ls600hl or ANY v12 sedan.

AlexApex

What part of "Lexus LS600h doesn't do anything as good as the Audi does" you don't understand? Use of cheaper materials and bad design(the usual for Lexus cars), combined with a higher price tag are not reasons to like a car. Can you understand that? This has nothing to do with Lexus failing as a driver's car like you and Will(Lexus no 1 fanboi)claim, it has to do with the fact that Lexus fails in every single aspect against the Audi. Lexus is LESS of a car than the Audi in any possible way and surprisingly comes with a higher price tag. What exactly do you expect the result to be?

Star... What Are You Talking About?

Even the reviewer can be quoted as witting,

"As you would expect in a Lexus, the quality of the interior is faultless – the cabin is impeccably trimmed, and fit and finish is superb"

"mechanical refinement is unrivaled. Road and engine noise is remarkably subdued – a reading of 63dB at 70mph is one of the lowest we’ve recorded this year – and the hybrid drive functions have been meticulously integrated."

How are you concluding that the LEXUS is made of 'inferior materials'?

Note: You Fan-Boys Really Only See/Read What You Want To See/Read...

Stossel,
I'm a car guy, not a Lexus or an Audi or a BMW guy, just a car guy. I Like looking at cars, talking about cars, and reading about cars. Some vehicles you choose because they're affordable, some because of design, performance, etc. One things for certain, if anyone is looking at a car that cost more than say $75,000, they are going to buy either what they like or for what kind of status it give them, and sometimes a little of both. One in this position would certainly not invest $100k just to take advantage of 1 or 2 mpg. There are 12 cylinder models that out perform the Lexus hybrid by a huge margin, ie S600, A8 W12 just to name a few. Not to mention the fact that 12 cylinders have an incredible sound and feel to them when your on the throttle.

I think the backlash towards the LS hybrid is based on the fact that it fails so miserably in its exacusion of its main goal. If it offered maybe 10 mpg advantage with the same kind of performance I think it would be an authentic alternative. Keep in mind, I would be the first to say that the LS460 is, at least, a viable competitor to other luxury models in its class, and in some circumstances surpassing them on certain levels.

the criticisms are ALL based on invalid premises. most cars in this class, even with v12 power, are NOT BOUGHT as "performance" sedans. as already pointed out, just about EVERYONE'S V12 is outperformed by its v8 'little brother.' and of course, GUZZLES MORE GAS on TOP of that!

buyers in this class are after supreme comfort AND prestige.
most will ONLY see duty as chaffeur driven limos in URBAN and suburban locales. (so WHO CARES about 0-60 times!?)

in these situations, the LS600hL would display its advantages. these same environments would also be where MINIMAL POLLUTION would be most appreciated.

and getting back to the PRESTIGE factor, even at ~$20,000 less than its DIRECT competitors, the ls600hL can boast something NONE of 'em have: the most TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED DRIVETRAIN.

I just had a light bulb go off in my head.

The LS600hL is an eight-cylinder car, with eight-cylinder performance and eight-cylinder fuel economy. For $105,000. That is it, case closed.

My goodness, what a scam!

:(

I'm waiting on the next Infiniti Q45 (Q50) to go head to head with the Germans. Not the LS.

It is really no surprise that given overwhelming evidence from innumerable sources(reviews) that the Lexus fanatics cannot admit that the LS600 is a marketing gimmick that does not deliver in any meaningful way.

Especially in a way that would move the competitive bar at all.

I have seen countless posts from those you consider "Euro-centric" being critical of brands that they are fans of.

Why can't you be intellectually honest, instead of offering emotional defenses of a product error that is more focused on marketing hype than any auto I have seen in a long time.
(And in my opinion illustrates the aspects of Lexus that will take them out of contention as a choice for many auto enthusiasts.)

Your blind faith and adherence to the Lexus corporate dictum has sacrificed your credibility for ANY post.

"The LS600hL is a V12 that can match V8s for frugality, and V12s in performance. The best of both worlds. That's new world thinking."


Mr. Huu76, lay of the crack, please. No article has even achieved the legendary LS600h "V12 performance" and "V8 fuel economy" so claimed by Lexus.

Face it, this car is an engineering marvel but at the same time an engineering failure. It fails to deliver on so many points. Maybe Lexus should cut back on the "fantasy marketing" and actually publish real figures.

Look, I don't understand who will buy this car because of "cleaner emissions". If someone really cared about the environment they'd buy a hybrid Geo Metro, not a full-blown, overweight LS600h. The people in this market don't care about emissions, FACT. I don't care what Lexus marketing claims, someone who buys an S600, Quattroporte or an A8 W12 doesn't give a damn about the environment.

I find it particularly funny how someone can even buy an LS600h. First off the overall fuel economy is attrocious. So what if it gets better mpg than an S600 or A8 W12? The LS600h still get achieves poor fuel economy ratings in mixed driving. You really think someone is going to buy this car because "even though the fuel economy ain't so good, it has clean emissions!" Yeah, right. *Sarcasm*

Next, you claim the European's can't meet the Kyoto Protocol targets? You know what, the Europeans are working on fulfilling this requirement, unlike America. Quit posting your bullshit twisted view on the world.

"If you think the 600 is just a V8, then considering the LS600 is faster than all but the MB S600"

Are you serious? I mean, really, really being serious? If you are, then you are incredibly ignorant.

The LS600hL is SLOWER than the LS460. It can't even match the A8 4.2, let alone the W12. The W12 has achieved a 0-60mph time of 4.9 sec; the LS600hL can't crack 5.5 and usually averages about 6 sec in most tests. The 760Li gets around 5.4.

I just don't feel like addressing the rest of your post, because I know it's insane. I'll say it again: the LS600hL is an eight-cylinder car, with eight-cylinder performance and eight-cylinder fuel economy... and actually, it has a twelve-cylinder curb weight.

huu:

really? the LS600 "easily beats" most of the V12 sedans "in nearly every category?

please do share some facts to back up your statements. i'm curious to hear how the LS600 is going to take down the S600 or W12 if it can't even match the S550 or the LS460.

The Lexus guys won’t agree with this but the reality of the situation is, most consumers won’t drop V-12 money on are car with a less impressive/prestigious name & engine than it’s rivals.

But people are. It's selling.

both cars are nice in there own way period. and i like both, but as far as the comparo, I DONT LIVE in the UK so this comparo means nothing...last time i check/know as a luxury car lover LS600hl is in V12 area...

also the editor credit is trash just by saying stupid BIAS s$%t like.... "It shares the subtle shape of the standard LS, and is only set apart by the LED lights, a transparent blue coating on the badge and discreet hybrid logos" trust me when i say this, if i drove pass this dude in a STOCK S550 with s600 wheels, he would swear its an S600...wow

as of Today, the S-class and LS are so ahead of A8 and 7 series, like most smart people i'll take an S/LS over any flagship sedan out right now till the new A8/7 is out

BILL "The people in this market don't care about emissions, FACT. I don't care what Lexus marketing claims, someone who buys an 760il, S600, Quattroporte, 600hl, A8 W12 doesn't give a damn about the environment" that is so true, these cars are for bragging rights

S4,
I think it goes without saying that just because you don't think it's "emotionally appealing" or "justified," doesn't mean that everyone feels that way, but of course we all must bow down to your smug German elitism. Well I refuse, and the persistent antagonistic attitudes displayed by most here make it increasingly difficult for me to find any shred of respect for anyone behind the wheel of a German car.
It gets better fuel economy and emissions than all the cars it directly competes with, regardless of all these meaningless unmatched comparisons. I don’t know where any of you are getting your mpg figures, but even in most reviews, the 600h regularly observes a rate around the EPA estimate of 20/22, which IS WAY BETTER than the V12s and at worst ON PAR with the V8s. In fact, after reminding myself, the LS460 is the class leader in mpg among the V8s as well. Both LS models get better combined mpg ratings from the EPA than their competition. Is this why everyone only wants to compare the LS600h with the LS460? That’s actually quite funny! Of course the V12 German models get worse mpgs than their own V8 counterparts, and there’s not so much being said on that. The LS600h is heavier than the LS460 ,just as every other car it competes with, so I wonder why everyone expects the 600h to perform magic and be lighter and more fuel efficient than the less-equipped, non-AWD 460? Because it has a hybrid badge? Everyone here wants to enforce that the 600h’s mpg is no better than the 460, and want to sweep under the rug that even so, it’s still much better than the cars it was created to compete with. I guess I can’t seem to get through to anyone that the hybrid powertrain was implemented by Lexus as a means of a power boost, in the same fashion as adding more cylinders. It’s a new approach for a luxury brand, which apparently has only given more fuel to the faithful Lexus haters.
This car has more horsepower than the lesser model, fact. I have seen most conclude that the 600 is indeed fast. It may not be faster than the LS460 in a 0-60 column on a piece of paper, but judging that hybrids deliver an instant grunt of torque I suspect that the 600h feels much faster than the 460, I can attest to that in fact. Anyone can make ridiculous comparisons, and the shameless and yes, BIASED auto magazines and publications are superb at that. The LS600hL directly competes with the German V12s on luxury content, price and horsepower alone. The issue of it being underpowered is a valid argument with its own set of talking points, but being underpowered alone does NOT make the car a failure. If it does, the new C-Class is also a failure.
These various magazine comparisons mean absolutely nothing to me, and they shouldn't to anyone actually considering a luxury car. Only in the biased world of automotive journalism can a car, an entire brand in fact, be faulted for making cars too mechanically-reliable and too luxury-oriented. And yet when they do sporty, the ma

...

And yet when they do sporty, the magazines find them peculiarly "too sporty;" this was the fate of the IS300 and now the IS-F as well. It has become more apparent than ever, that most of the employers of all these magazines are individuals with their own strict principles and ideas that all cars should drive like go-karts and be made in Europe or else, it's "boring and bland."I can't possibly take any of them seriously when they themselves can't even seem to find which cars the LS600hL competes with. They have too much pride and are too worried about their monthly membership revenue to even admit that Lexus has bested its European competition on the aspects that count in the luxury segment. I cannot possibly take that as the sole indication of the kinds of products the company builds.

"I think it goes without saying that just because you don't think it's "emotionally appealing" or "justified," doesn't mean that everyone feels that way, but of course we all must bow down to your smug German elitism."

Please explain. What about this car is sexy and/or practical? Because the way I see it, if a car is impractical, it should have some fun-to-drive factor to offset that. Conversely, if a car is not very fun to drive, it should offer frugality. The LS600hL has neither--just luxury features, all of which are available in its less-expensive sibling. So no, I am not bashing this car simply because it exists. I am bashing it because it deserves to be bashed. It is an automotive hyperbole, an automotive oxymoron, a bunch of excuses on wheels.

"It gets better fuel economy and emissions than all the cars it directly competes with, regardless of all these meaningless unmatched comparisons."

But really, what DOES it compete with? IMO, you're only comparing it to the twelve-cylinder sedans on price. However, it can't match them on performance, so it would be embarrassing for Lexus if it DIDN'T get better mileage to go with its unimpressive performance and high price (as well as the badge on the flanks). It is a HYBRID, after all, and I think the lesson learned from this vehicle is that you can't have an eight-cylinder hybrid with the "performance of a V12..." it is just impossible with the given technology. Or at least, Lexus couldn't do it. Hybrids are made for frugality... not performance. This is why its comparison to the diesels makes sense. But the diesels really whoop the Lexus because they're all less-expensive, faster and more efficient.

"the 600h regularly observes a rate around the EPA estimate of 20/22, which IS WAY BETTER than the V12s and at worst ON PAR with the V8s. In fact, after reminding myself, the LS460 is the class leader in mpg among the V8s as well."

Yes, and it should. That is not "WAY BETTER" than the 12s, especially not on the highway--they get around 20MPG on the highway, too.

It is not on par with any V8 except the S550. The 7, A8 and XJ all have higher averages in real-life driving. And don't let the Jag's 300hp figure deceive you--it's just as quick as the LS600hL. That's because it weighs 1300lbs less.

"The LS600h is heavier than the LS460 ,just as every other car it competes with, so I wonder why everyone expects the 600h to perform magic and be lighter and more fuel efficient than the less-equipped, non-AWD 460? Because it has a hybrid badge? Everyone here wants to enforce that the 600h’s mpg is no better than the 460, and want to sweep under the rug that even so, it’s still much better than the cars it was created to compete with."

This just doesn't make much sense at all. I can kind of see what you mean, but don't forget that this car not only gets worse mileage than the LS460L, but worse performance. You seem to work around that in this post. BTW, the Jaguar XJ8 gets better fuel econo

Well, like he said S4, it may be a sluggish car from 0-60, but that does not make the car a failure.

Also, when you think about how heavy the LSh is, even over the V12 European counterparts, you start to realize that any fuel economy above 12 miles per gallon is impressive. The LSh gets highway mileage within the same range of the V12s, okay, but it leaves them in city miles per gallon, which is the typical characteristics of hybrids vs. petrol engines anyway.

But the thing I don't get about it is, why does it HAVE to be heavy? Why does it have to be a compromise? A $105,000 sedan should not be a compromise.

s4- it's heavy due to the AWD components and the battery pack. neither is a compromise, they ADD TO the functionality and prestige of the package.

despite all that avoirdupois, it STILL GETS 50 - 67% BETTER MILEAGE in the city than its v12 competitors.

It's incredibly ignorant to say that this car does NOTHING good. The entire LS line is a luxury and technology marvel. That doesn't go away when going from the 460 to the 600. The 600, in fact, is MORE technological than the 460, due to the complicated hybrid, which is the world's first hybrid system mated to a 8-cylinder with an 8-gear transmission. And it goes without saying, but clearly most of you need be reminded that the LS is the embodiment of the values that has made the brand famous. Impeccable build quality, relentless refinement and luxury are not exempt from the LS600hL.
Probably in truth, Lexus should have been charging a higher premium for the LS all along. It has proven itself as on par with the best of Germany, even stretching into further realms of prestige automobiles in those regards, yet the brand has traditionally offered it at fairer prices. Meet the Lexus with the least amount of "fair price” and the most "exclusivity and prestige" in that ever-so-exclusive German sense of the phrase. It is Lexus that has continually embarrassed the Germans in terms of luxury, quality and refinement, making German saloons look extremely overpriced and "unjustifiable." Don't forget that.

Ah WILL - you have not heard anything anyone has to say. So be it.

You are a Lexus sycophant and there is no reasoning or logic that will penetrate your bubble.(And you take all of this soooo personally)

In this discussion you have been OWNED by so many posts that it is really time for you to retire your diatribe, take your meds, and sign off.

"The 600, in fact, is MORE technological than the 460, due to the complicated hybrid, which is the world's first hybrid system mated to a 8-cylinder with an 8-gear transmission. And it goes without saying, but clearly most of you need be reminded that the LS is the embodiment of the values that has made the brand famous. Impeccable build quality, relentless refinement and luxury are not exempt from the LS600hL."

But is being more technologically advanced automatically make it a better car? Because, the way I see it, the added technology only spoils the LS460's competence.

It has a CVT transmission.

"It's incredibly ignorant to say that this car does NOTHING good."

You know that that statement was relative. It does NOTHING better than the LS460L--and in some cases, does worse.

"Probably in truth, Lexus should have been charging a higher premium for the LS all along. It has proven itself as on par with the best of Germany, even stretching into further realms of prestige automobiles in those regards, yet the brand has traditionally offered it at fairer prices."

I agree, the LS460 is a lovely car that offers the most for your money. A loaded LS460L (well, without the Exec Seating Package) will run you only $82K, which is the norm for a decently-equipped (but not loaded) car in this class, and doesn't even match the base price of an S550. If I wanted to be driven around, the LS460L would be my car... as long as I had a European sports car at home. (-:

"Meet the Lexus with the least amount of "fair price” and the most "exclusivity and prestige" in that ever-so-exclusive German sense of the phrase."

I never use "exclusivity and prestige" in my arguments. They're not arguments, they're excuses. Ridiculous. Some people do (I cringe whenever Sevor says the S-Class is more prestigious, has more heritage, etc, etc, etc), and IMO it's incredibly stupid. I don't buy a car based on its past. I buy it because of what it does TODAY.

"It is Lexus that has continually embarrassed the Germans in terms of luxury, quality and refinement, making German saloons look extremely overpriced and "unjustifiable." Don't forget that."

Lexus has upped the game considerably in terms of luxury features, but the thing that makes German cars justifiable is, of course, performance. The satisfaction in driving them is what makes people like me go back to Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Porsche dealerships time and time again. What many Lexus fans on this site argue is that performance is not quantifiable--that "magic feel" is a big pile of nothing. Well, luxury isn't either. It's just how the car makes you feel.

"ICON"

You can stop wasting your time responding to me. I'm not paying attention to your comments.

S4,

I agree with that whole post, mainly because it doesn't negate anything I said.

All the hatred is pointless. Guess what?

This car is selling.

So is the Jeep Liberty or Geo Metro but that doesn't make them good cars.

Geo Metro meaning Chevy Aveo.

And guess what else?

Most (if not all) of the people who ordered it before its release knew nothing of its poor performance and fuel efficiency.

To even say that the LS600h is a 'poor performer' is just a Bunch of Over Exaggerated Rhetoric...

The vehicle may not suit your particular needs etc, but in no way is it a 'Poor Performer', and is No Way is it 'Made of Inferior Materials, and the result of 'Poor' Engineering.

All this nonsense is so easy to resolve:

If You Don't Like The Vehicle... Don't Buy It!

And Acting Like an Elitists No-It-All/Drove-It-All/Own It-All Putz is Not Going To Sway Anyone's Opinion One Way Or The Other.

So Relax... It's Just An Internet Forum, and I, For One, Come Here To Unwind... Not To Constantly Bicker!

DaHarder, realize that everything I say is relative. Yes, next to the LS460, this car IS a poor performer! It's not significantly slower, but it can't match the twelve-cylinder sedans. I guess it's also $30K less. But it's $30K more than the V8s.

I think the bitchy attitudes of people like ICON and fastonekiller speak more about how much people have disdain for the car simply because it's an expensive Lexus. It's just a car (that I now happen to own). I you don't like it, then move on. Clearly none of you are NOT going to convince anyone besides the typical Lexus haters that this is a bad car. I dropped the money on one OVER an S-Class, a 7-series, and the A8. My, look how upsetting that is to all of you insecure and plain pathetic people.

Exactly. He doesn't need to convince anyone else. He's convinced himself, and put his money where his heart was, and he did it regardless of all of you saying how nobody should buy it. It's called the real world outside the internet! Nobody is going to convince anyone else here. The sooner we ALL realize this, the sooner we can all stop acting like children.

Well, I boosted him, and probably other people that agree with him.

I actually hate this whole boost/deboost system on all internet forums. They make the commenting section very tacky, and mostly only serve as ways for the immature to act more immature.

But while Auto Spies still has the system, I'm deboosting you. I'm sure I'll be deboosted more though come tomorrow, due to all the different accounts among you, ICON and S4cabriofoxone...

Oh, please. I may opinionated but I'm no troll. I may not be a rational person--I buy cars because of how they make me feel--but I am not particularly biased, either. The Lexuses just don't make me feel very good, so I don't buy them. It's as simple as that. I'm not turned off from the brand forever.

Damn, I'm sick of typing errors. I may not *BE* opinionated.

I thought you owned a Lexus, and even owned some in the past?

"Will_" and I are not the same person, but I feel for the guy. He's one of the Japanese auto fans here that I respect the most. Most of the time, he's just on the defensive, defending Lexus from all of you relentless and unnecessary attackers. He is very clear about his Lexus bias, and makes no excuses for it, unlike many here who try to position themselves as "unbiased" to make their comments more "rational" when it is very clear of otherwise.

yes...S4,

I recall you stating several times that you owned an RX-Series.

Hmmm?

Yes, my wife has an RX330 and we had an RX300 before. But we ordered a BMW X5 4.8i and it's coming in January.

As for me. No, I'm not a rational person, like I said. But I am not biased. I just buy cars if I like them, not if I like their brand name. You guys call me biased if I like a German car over a Lexus... but if I like the German car better, I have a reason (or many reasons). I don't like it better because it's German.

You quite clearly have not been on this site for more than a month, so first I say welcome.

Second, Will is one of the most rational Lexus fans on this site. If I recall correctly, he likes several European cars, including the new BMW M3, and the Mercedes CLS. But of course you probably have not seen him talk about the cars he likes, because he's too busy defending Lexus from posters like you.

I don't think Will is very rational--he's very passionate. You can't like this car and still be rational.

And to put it bluntly, I'm not the least bit rational, either. This car is amazing. If the LS460L didn't exist it would be one of the best in the world, and I would consider buying it. But it's unfortunate for Lexus that the less-expensive model is the superior one. Or is it?

Hmm, maybe I'll give this a test drive, as like I said I'm not a rational person. A luxurious sedan appeals to me. But it's also very expensive. I'll just wait and see.

Eh, who am I kidding? It's just too expensive to buy without thinking twice. If it was significantly better than the 460L, I would consider it... but it isn't. I will instead probably test drive the LS460L with the $14,000 Premium Package/Air Suspension if it's available. That, with the hybrid's wheels, would be fantastic to have for clients, friends, and just relaxing. I would have a fun car on the side. If I couldn't get the 600hL's gorgeous rims, I would just get the Teleios style. As long as it's not the standard rim, I'm fine.

Off Topic, but -

I'm just curious:

How many individuals, who regularly post comments in this forum, are actual adults?

I just find it appalling/embarrassing that mature, semi-intelligent adults would behave as many often do in here... about automobiles!

The hatred, disrespect, rudeness et al... Sad... Very Sad.

...and we wonder why the world is going to hell in a hand-basket.

Note: and just so you'll know, Me, I'm a 39 year Retired USAF Officer now working in Las Vegas, NV as a Mechanical Engineer.

I'm not going to disclose my age/job position/etc but I'm a middle-aged guy living in suburban Chicago. And I have had a passion for cars for as long as I could talk. I am very excited for the coming years, as I will be able to buy cars I could only dream of ten years ago. No, I'm not bragging, but it's just amazing to me. I had an Acura TL in 1997. In 2008 I might be buying an Audi S6/S8 or BMW 335xi/535xi/M5; in 2009 it could be some variant of Porsche 911. I feel lucky, and grateful.

European manufacturers have long been cynical about hybrid powerplants. Based on the outcome of this Auto Express comparison, I can see why. As I suspected, modern turbodiesels offer greater fuel efficiency and performance than gasoline/electric hybrids without the price premiums that many hybrid vehicles command. As one blogger stated earlier, the Lexus LS600h might be a nice luxury car, but people who buy them should not delude themselves into thinking they are saving the plantet.

Now that low-sulfur diesel fuel is available in all 50 states, and modern diesel engines (e.g. BlueTec) are being introduced into the U.S. market, American consumers will discover that one can have a car that gets great fuel mileage, is environmentally friendly, and is fun to drive.

They have the 0-60 time wrong, for both cars. I know that 0-60 for the 600h is 5.6~ sec.

Yes, but maybe they tested it at 7 seconds for the Lexus.

In Europe it uses different gearing for slower acceleration but better economy.

And it still gets about 16 US MPG. Pathetic.

#1 A8

LS is rubbish period.

it's not online yet. you have to subscribe.

Gosh, the LS600h'd 0-62 time keeps getting slower.
When they announced it the Lexus UK site said 0-62 in roughly 6 seconds.
Then it became 6.3, and now it's 6.6, and Autoexpress could only get 7!

Looks like there might some rather substandard drivers doing those tests...

Or maybe they're deliberately driving the vehicles poorly...

Or maybe the conditions were not favorable that day...

WHO KNOWS... WHO CARES?

Believe It Or Not:

There IS a faction of the luxury car buying public that see LEXUS a the pinnacle of the genre, and are willing go pay whatever it takes to own the Best of the Breed (LS600h).

Why Is This Concept so Difficult To Inculcate Into Some of Your Brains?

There Are Those Who Actually PREFER LEXUS to other vehicle manufacturers regardless of what is posted in here or written in some Euro-Rag... PERIOD!

Honestly, I dont know why people buy Lexus. Audi is far superior in every sense. I dont own either of these makes, so it is an unbiased comment.

Because The Ultimate Luxury is CHOICE!

Some choose LEXUS, some choose AUDI, some even choose ACURA.

It's their money, their decision, and their enjoyment, and should go without question.

This is a European publication, so those factors are largely irrelevant.

Which is not to say that they're biased towards European Manufacturers, They Just Don't Like Asian Ones.

But Let's Not Forget That Audi Affords a Greater "Sense of Occasion"... LOL!

To say nothing of better acceleration, better braking, better handling, better fuel economy, is cheaper, bigger trunk ... LOL!

DaHarder, you're beginning to sound like a Lexus troll.

...and You've Long Sounded Like -

'Things That Would be Inappropriate To Post In Here'...

Note: Save your comments for the topic of automobiles, and enough with the personal jabs!

Contradictory, to say the least. Hypocritical.

Just ask a normal person what they'd buy, an A8 Diesel or an ultra modern LS 600h? They'd laugh at the word diesel and spending $70k for it. I was trying to convince a friend to buy a V10 Toureg, but no, he preffered the RX 400h. In U.S., they won't go for a diesel. And that 0-60 time is way off, 600h is 5.6 sec. or lower. they have the correct time under the passing time.

Well, #1 you mean a normal American. It's only Americans who don't understand diesels and their benefits.

#2... by normal, I mean UNEDUCATED. IGNORANT. They don't care (and don't know) that the LS600hL doesn't get good mileage or that it has below-average performance--since it's a Lexus hybrid, it must be good!

But the fact that you're sitting here and clearly know which car makes the most sense between the two, and STILL putting out excuses, makes me think you're just a bit too biased.

The LS600hL accelerates from 0-60mph in 6.0 sec according to most tests.

LS600h loses once again. This time to 3 V8s.

Motor Trend sums it up

"4th place: Lexus LS 600hL
Overpromises and underdelivers on performance, fuel economy, and even luxury."

The LS600 had no performance advantage versus the gasoline V8s from the competition, and only managed 15% better fuel economy, a gas guzzling 14.9 in the end.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0712_high_end_luxury_sedan_comparison/index.html

btw, the LS600h overheated the hybrid drivetrain after some driving in the mountains

Again the badge whores grasp at any article that they believe elevates a technically inferior vehicle over the LS600. As pointed out much earlier, the V12s are what the LS600 is supposed to be compared to. As for diesel vehicles, they will never be popular in North America. Why do you think BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, etc. are all scrambling to develop hybrids?

You are an ignorant fool.

What makes you think my opinions are not any more valid than yours S4?
You clearly are full of sh*t most of the time.

Understand, That when certain individuals fail to sway others towards their opinion/way-of-thinking, they Automatically Resorts To Name Calling...

Much as a Bratty Child would do.

Note: Name Calling Should Result In An Automatic Account Suspension.

Right, I'M full of $hit. You are the most biased Lexus fan on this site. If you can't see the flaws in this car, you need help.

Take a second look at my comments. The LS460L is an excellent car. THIS isn't. Is that okay with you?

Oh what a tangled web Lexus weaved, When first Lexus practised to deceive!

:(

All I know is their selling every copy they make at MSRP.

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.

Ferrari charges up to $100K over the sticker on new cars that are in demand. Audi has done $20K-50K on the R8.

Audi v. Lexus... 2 for Audi

LOL another JOke of a test.

So...Lexus has less emissions even though it has much more horses, is more luxurious and (IMO) by far better looking (I always mistake the A8 for the A4 from a distance- but you'll never mistake the LS for an IS) yet Audi wins because Lexus is more expensive?

Well I guess if you can't afford a Lexus, then drive an Audi. The rest of us will drive the best= Lexus

You are a fool.

Good Lord this is a long thread. Anybody know what the record is?

Well the Lexus 600h you can buy in the states the Audi TDI not offered. Hopefully Audi's next version will pass US emissions for Diesel vehicles. Lexus is easier on the eyes, but Audi's TDI and luxury amenities are better, not superior to Lexus. Another nod to Lexus is the electronic gadgetry.

This is a European article... set in Europe.

The A8 is not an offensive-looking car by any means. This is just not a flattering shot, what with the LS600hL (focus of the article) in front.

There comes a point in which a thread should simply Be Locked From Any further commentary.

This Thread is Long Past That Point!

Note: Anytime a topic degenerates into a name calling situation, It's Time To Shut It Down as well as those who committed the offense.

You have no idea. There were IS-F threads last year (before you joined) that escalated to a 400-comment flame war.

A much less divisive post of mine (called "SURVEY: What's in YOUR Garage," with a few pictures of my cars and an open question for others to talk about theirs) generated some 330 posts... and there was barely any flaming, if any at all.