Of the Asian luxury companies, who will the eventual victor be? Lexus or Infiniti?

This is actually a very legit subject. The question for me is, who makes better cars? I believe Infiniti, as of now, makes better models when compared head to head with its Lexus counterparts(with the exception of the QX56 vs. the Lexus LX) Yet, it's Lexus's notoriety and reputation that keeps it ahead of Infiniti in terms of sales. Yet, if Infiniti continue to spit out and come up with newer and better versions of its world beaters such as the G35 and M35/45, we should see a change in the market share in Infiniti's favor. (I would really like to see Infiniti make a S-Class competitor, as well as a luxury GT car to compete with the like of the SL and the 911. IF Infiniti came out with cars such as these, it would greatly heighten Infiniti's image and better establish themselves as a luxury car maker.)

I agree. That's also another reason Infiniti is behind in sales compared to Lexus: because they haven't established themselves as luxury vehicles yet.

I agree about Infinity as Nissan makes truly good engines. Watch out for the Koreans however as they can beat Japanese prices any day. The Hyundai Genesis should be very interesting with its DOHC V8 power and RWD with LSD.

Hmm..it is true that Lexus is the sales leader of the two brands currently, but Infiniti keeps on winning awards for best residual value (the G and the M both have this) and also car of the year awards from various names. All this will help their image as a luxury brand..and from a company as short as 5 years ago who had a failing lineup and was about to be discontinued made a huge turnaround.

Cars like the FX and EX which are produced exclusively for Infiniti are quite stunning so it shows what they can do. The next M will be great and just in time for the new Q as the people who have been buying M's will move up.

Infiniti is now sold in China, Korea, Russia, Ukraine, the middle east and will moving into the UK soon..so they're not sitting back.

Acura just seems to be floundering

Inifinti is one of my fav company but i still think Lexus is long way ahead and Infiniti has to do a lot of work/investment to reach where Lexus is now.

They also doesn't compete directly with Lexus because Lack of/different types of models.

Like there is no ES,LS,GX and SC series competitor from Infiniti.They r also unlike Lexus nearly non-existent outside USA.

JUGNU

Infiniti said no more FWD models, so they will not compete with the ES. A new flagship model will come out in a couple years (Q50) to go head to head with the LS. The SC hardly sells, there is no point in competing with it. Infiniti is sold in quite a few countries outside the U.S. and mostly targeting countries with fast growth rates to gain a foot hold in them.

Lexus.

rok altima

That sounds like an excuse.My was more of a reason that Infiniti doesn't directly competes with Lexus TILL NOW.As lack of models and there core is still more towards Sport/Performance.

What models will come in future we will see.

and i live here in Middle East(Dubai).And infinti is surely there,but very little and nearly non existent in rest of the Asia.

JUGNU

I'm tired of these bias articles from the Agents, there is no reason why Acura should not be mentioned here, let me guess it's because they have no V8 or RWD (not iportant to most buyers). By this time next year after the introduction of the new TL and TSX Acura will be making noise there AWD system is more sophisticated than Infinit's or Lexus and it will make them competitive in the performance race once again. Sales wise they are the only real threats to Lexus.
There interiors are better than that of Infiniti and you get more car for the money than both Lexus and Infiniti.
I know Honda tends to be secreative about there plans but instead of all this Lexus and Infinit talk there is no reason why we can't get more Acura news and I know alot of people will agree with me.

Acura "Advance"

I agree, in my mind, from a purely design standpoint, Acura is far more sophisticated, far less overly stylized to meet some marketing demographic. It is a shame Acura has not marketed themselves a bit more forcefully, but at the same time, I like that they are not the marketing whore that Lexus is.

It does go to show you how important marketing is as all 3 of these brands are very similar in how they became to be.

Acura?

What planet are you on?

They are sooo far out of the game, hell would have to freeze over for them to even become relevant again.

Dude, get over it.

They make some nice rides, but they are a verrry distant third in this game.

001

it doesn't help that Acura exists only in N. America...whereas in the rest of the world it's just called Honda.

I agree 100% Acura is very innovative and there designs, especially the interiors are copied by others in the market. Why do you think Infiniti took the path they did with the new G35 interior? And don't forget about the new CTS's interior. Great points Mikey!

Lets put things into perspective. Infiniti is a great brand, but they were risking bankruptcy a few years ago. They are getting better and better (that's good) but Acura is not even close to being out (not yet anwyays). The sales numbers for Acura are down because their TSX and TL models came out at nearly the same time. They have 5 year cycles for model changes. Remember when the TL and TSX came out around late 2003 early 2004? These models including the RSX made Acura king... Those cars, even though they were FF blew away the competition in terms of sales, fuel econ, overall features, and even handling. The problem now is that the competition is fierce and continually inovating in terms of performance while Acura/Honda is concentrating most of its resources on being green. In the future, which will be more important? Who knows, maybe something will happen and you can get 600hp sedans that weigh 3 tons while getting 70mpg?

Anyways, in the mean time. Acura still needs to distinguish itself from Honda. Like differentiating designs and building an FR platform (long shot, cuz it's cost prohibitive. yada yada). Not many people care about RWD vs. FWD, But it gets into the minds of quasi-enthusiasts. Driver enthusiasts who form most of their snobbery and opinions from auto magazines, online forums, and television shows. Word spreads and people start hating on a car without actually driving it..

I applaud infiniti for recognizing this before it was too late. They set out on a path to win this psychological battle by emulating the driver's favorite symbol of enthusiasm, BMW. In 2005, I looked at the G35, but I chose the TL instead. The reason was fuel economy, better exterior, interior, and tons of gadgets. The G35 had terrible fuel economy at the time, felt cramped, and looked horrid inside (I gotta say BMW has horrid interiors as well. I guess they like to emulate that as well lol). I dunno about now, but the G got around 22mpg on highway. Regardless, the G35 set out to be a performance sedan to compete with BMW, they are getting close and the enthusiasts are rewarding them for it. (i.e. This article). Good for them.

I think Acura is a great brand. I love their cars but they don't have their eye on the prize. Winning enthusiasts over. These are the people who influence popular opinion. Come on acura, you're about to go global.. Do it with a bang! Get that FR platform out, build the NSX on the HSC concept, give us a new roadster, don't go GS on us with the next TL!





From wikipedia:
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By 2000, Infiniti was facing extinction. The company rededicated itself to developing a dynamic and powerful line-up of sporty luxury cars. Car and Driver reported that Infiniti executives invited members of the motoring press to a meeting where they "swore never again to take their eyes off BMW." - Wikipedia
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Acura interiors and exteriors are better than Infinity and Lexus? Since when? Whatever, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
But in my personal opinion Acura can't be directly compared to the other two. I see Acura as a Buick and Volvo competitor and even then Volvo is much better. The TL looks like to overbloated. The only vehicle in their lineup that can compete is the RDX.
Acura's problem is they can't move away from Honda. Look at the TSX, it's the Honda Accord in the rest of the world, exactly the same, nothing changes other than the badge. The RL is just plain horrible, but Infiniti's Q is much worse. The MDX does not have the drivetrain to compete, the car will flop if it hits gravel. It was a smart move to drop the RSX, a car like that does not belong in their lineup. I see Acura as a fast and furious brand. It's the first step you take in the luxury market if you want a Japaneese car but as you get older and make more money you move to the other two.

As for the Lexus vs Infiniti battle, it's tough. Infiniti is moving up fast. All their models, minus the Q and QX, are up to par with the competition. Though if the GTR was an Infiniti it would greatly benefit them. Lexus needs to stop production of that monstrocity they refer to as the SC.

Acura is a Volvo/VW/Saab competitor. They were there in the early 90's, but kinda became an "average" luxury car from then on.

M35MT, its getting harder and harder to determine which companies are each other's competitors as most luxury features have trickled down to lesser cars. Auto makers still believe that they can simply target a specific competitor by pricing their produst in the same range. The consumer is too smart for that and will buy the product that offers most value for the money. Today's car buyer is smart enough to recognize when a product is overpriced and sales of the overpriced product suffer accordingly.

It's hard to say at this point. Lexus is a more powerful marketing machine and they already have a foothold in Europe, however small. But I think Infiniti can do better than Lexus in Europe, if only because their cars play to Europeans' wants and needs. I don't know who will end up as the "victor," though.

You'd take an RL over an M?
There's something seriously wrong there.

I shopped last year between the M35, RL, and 535. I took the RL. With the A-Spec package it was the best looking for my taste, had the best ride for city living, and had the nicest interior with the absolute best nav and voice recognition system of them all.

I scratch my head when I hear people count Acura out. yes, they need to do a better job marketing, Yes, they need more choices in their trim package and drive trains. But this company still makes some very good cars. They are far from irrelevant. That's a ridiculous statement I heard some people say.

people forget (or NEVER knew), that the Acura was the FIRST luxury brand from japan, preceding the lexus and infiniti.

the NSX has yet to be matched. (altho' it will be, and possibly surpassed, when the LF-A comes out).

somewhere along the years however, honda/acura got left behind as lexus and even infiniti zoomed by in the passing lane.

Lexus hands down.

Though I'd say that Infiniti has a couple of cars that kill their Lexus counterparts, specifically the M35/M45 and FX35/FX45, which in my book are better than the GS and RX series.

In the top luxury segment, the Infiniti Q can't touch the LS.

That's because there is no Infiniti Q right now. Mark my words... when it comes back, it will be impressive.

This is true, people were surprised at the redesigned M after the first one was a flop. The first G (althought with a cheap interior, though vastly improved in the new one) got many awards for its abilities. The FX was something never seen before and rivaled the Porsche Cayanne in its handling. I don't think Infiniti/Nissan will be play around the new Q as now the people who've had M's for a while will now be ready to trade up.

The next Infiniti Q will definiely be a car to watch, but I think they're going to gun for the BMW 7er meaning sport will have a slight priority over luxury/comfort. I expect it to be an awesome car though, like the LS.

Hyundai. Of all Asian makes, they will make the biggest splash.

They are rapidly closing on Lexus on design, and the content is just starting to improve with the new coupe. They will have to leave the econobox market to Kia though, not that I see any problem with that.

At the same time, they will certainly be the price leader, which may make them the king of the recession luxo market.

This is an article about Lexus and Infiniti.

Looks like I was mislead by the article referring to Asian luxo companies; and comments made of Acura.

Hyundai is still not an Asian luxury company..

"Hyundai is still not an Asian luxury company"

I'm having a hard time understanding this comment. Hyundai is Korean, Korea is in Asia, thus Hyundai is an Asian manufacturer.

Yes, but they're not LUXURY

I like the g35 and the m35/45 more than the gs and is.

G= skyline M= fuga Q= cima (still made in Japan). And the G20 was a primera the first M was a leopard and the seconde was a cedric.

So if you want to know infiniti's future watch Japan.

Interesting, FX, EX didn't have any Japan counterparts, Not sure your theory holds water. Also, the second gen g35 was available in the US before it was available as a Skyline.

Lexus is the Winner of course....Why you might ask?

First, Lexus was originally design as a pure Luxury car not sport car. And their sales already far exceed Infiniti in term of sales and their quality is way better.

And now, they just make their first true sport sedan, the Lexus IS-F. Other model will follow the F-division soon enough, like the GS-F and LS-F. And their up and coming Lexus LF-A with 570+ hp, with a speed limit that exceed 200 mph.

But it doen't really matter because they are both Japanese brands. Nissan GT-R already giving all the German engineer nightmare, I can't wait what the Lexus LF-A will do to them?

I think you're wrong. On every point.

you're totally off base.

for people who like performance (i.e. being able to actually feel the road, good handling, etc) infiniti is a no-brainer over lexus.

Lexus dominates the 38+ market and infiniti the 20-35 market.

the fx is fast and handles like a car, the rx is docile, roomy and luxurious. which one is better?

the lx is ultra luxury, the qx is ultra luxury with a couch. which one is better?

the m is fast and loaded. the gs is not as fast and just as loaded. which one is better?

the ls has always been the top of its class for an asian car. the q has always been 2nd place to the ls. which one is better?

don't forget the g35 and is, the g37 and sc.

both are great makes and will always compete with each other. it all depends on whats important.

look at the Germans, who's on top changes every couple of years or when one of them does something stupid like buy an American car company.

infiniti is entering new markets because many new and slighlty used infiniti are being exported to russia, ukraine, etc... lexus as well. lexus has begun selling in russia and services cars through toyota dealerships in many countries.

remember both infinit and lexus were created for the american market.

The cheapest Infiniti is the G sedan which starts at $31,600. Don't know where you got 20K from..maybe thinking of Acura?

The Infiniti G37 does not compete with the Lexus SC430--the Infiniti is literally half the price. And it's a better car, in every respect.

Who will be the eventual victor? Stories like these are totally pointless. To have a eventual victor would mean at some point one of the 2 car companies would go out of business! There is no "eventual victor". The battle goes on until indefinately. Sometimes one makes better cars sometimes the other does.

I doubt that there will ever be a time when the the automotive market reaches a point when it can only sustain a single manufacturer, so both of these companies will continue producing outstanding offerings that offer the consumer the only True Luxury-

The Luxury of Choice.

Note: I really dislike this type of thread because it is so obviously irrelevant, and does little but insight flame wars.

You're right, because if there were only 1, that would be communism.

easy answer:

in sports sedans and more performance-oriented vehicles for people under 50: infiniti hands down.

in softer luxury sedans and SUVs for people over 50: lexus already dominates.

It's not even an argument. Lexus has more competitors that go head-to-head with European cars. Like it's already been mentioned, Infiniti doesn't have competitors for the LS, ES, SC, etc. Lexus has already started to pull away from Infiniti as far as the luxury market is concerned anyway. The LS600hL will introduce new premium buyers to the brand, the IS-F will introduce new performance buyers to the brand, and whenever the LF-A gets off its feet, it too will introduce both new performance and premium buyers to the brand as well.

Infiniti has made strides in making cars with striking design and performance, but they cannot take on the whole luxury car market with the G and M alone.

It's definitely an argument. You know, Will, THINGS CHANGE.

Your bias shows through.

There really is no argument. BOTH companies will see tremendous growth. At the moment, Lexus is ahead, and there are no worthy competitors to those cars. It's just a fact.

Your hasty and argumentative ignorance shows through.

Infiniti has a lot more room for growth than Lexus. They haven't started in all of the markets that Lexus is in, their cars are more appealing to Europeans and they don't have half of the available segments covered. Full-size sedan, upscale sports car, convertible, etc. are just a few.

Two xlnt cars companies with diffferent direction at the out set, it seems from the get go Infiniti wanted to be a niche player while Lexus sole purpose was to take on MBZ. As the years passed Infiniti got lost and just put product out there and hope it would sell because of dealer network. Lexus like a good football team stayed focus.
To Infinit's credit instead of folding the tent since they were getting left behind they took the G off the market refined the heck out of it brought it back the rest is history. The FX was brought to market as advertised a crossover they would build as it was sent around the country for approval and the public said build it again the rest is history.The M was brillant very different design and improvement over a nice I-30 but the M is great.
Another fine move was the removal of the Q and again wait and bring it back as a true 21 century car ready to do battle with the best of the best.
Lexus is still focus on product for sure, but i think their dealers are getting to comfortable as to we can sell it because of the Lexus name, Infifnti is getting tons of steam will they over take Lexus no of course not, Toyota and Nissan are two very different car companies as to sales volume, Infiniti will now be player for some time Lexus will be a big behemouth who can still and always will sell cars on its laurels after all they do make nice machines this isn't GM vs Ford this is Xlnt cars vs Xlnt cars!

I think Lexus has a much deeper pocket for R&D and new project than do Infiniti, therefore, I think Lexus will be the victor.

I love the deboosting because my OPINION is not what they want to hear...(not that I care)...

It all depends on what you would think victorious would be. Luxury, quality, build, and resale all go to Lexus. Performance, good price, and good technological features go to Infiniti. If you look at the lower-class companies, Toyota and Nissan, it's the same way. Nissans are famous for raising the bar and pushing the limit. But, they often use short cuts to do that by using cheap materials. Toyota is known for quality vehicles that are more conservative. I think the same goes for Infiniti and Lexus.

Honda quality is better than that of Nissan and Toyota if they take taht formula and add it to Acura we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Acuras aren't true luxury vehicles though. They don't offer RWD, they don't offer a V8, they don't offer luxury features such as push button start, ventilated seats, 16-way power seats, etc. etc. etc.

Since when is push-button start a necessary luxury feature? Even the ventilated seats are pushing it. In so many other respects, I've gotta hand it to Acura, their cars are packed with standard features. Sounds a bit like... oh, I'm going there... Lexus. Except that was Lexus, 10 years ago. Now they overprice their cars like everyone else.

As much as NISSAN debated about whether to badge the GT-R as an Infiniti or Nissan, I seriously doubt that they'll be 'badge-engineering' and Infiniti version...

It would dilute the whole Nissan (Skyline) GT-R mystique.

I do believe that the 'Q' will come back fighting, and very competitive.

Note: The 1st gen Q45 was a very nice vehicle and quite the performer for its time.

Nissan have already committed to building a car off of the GTR platform for Infiniti. It is due in 2010 or 2011.

I hope they don't rebadge the GT-R as an Infiniti. Like DaHarder says, it will dilute the GT-R's "mystique". Besides, I think Nissan will have a hard enough time selling a $60-80K car. Imagine if they turn it into an Infiniti, it'll cost even more.

IMO, its very hard Infiniti to become as big as Lexus. they maynot want to be too big. They wanted to gow into status of Japsnese BMW, or ultimate drving mechine from Japan...
Infiniti ;is great brand, but IMO, they will still a stay at #3, behind Lexus and Acura, unless Acura on't want to build a RWD and V-8...

Infiniti is okay, but they have a very long way to go if they are trying to compete with Lexus. I was going to trade in my 05 Acura TL on Friday for a G37. Performance wise the vehicle is great, but the interior quality is not up to the level of my Acura. The car also did not feel as solid & secure as the TL.
But seriously, Acura in my opinion is a way better brand than Infiniti. Better residual value & quality.

The ifiniti G has won awards for best residual value and quality..The TL hasn't..

The problem with Infiniti is that the company has never really been consistently managed well. The original Q45 was a hit, but the current version is ugly and a disaster. When Nissan and Infiniti were coming out with awkward looking, bland cars in the late 90's, it really destroyed brand equity for both. As a result, it will take a lot of time for Infiniti to recover from that. Infiniti really needs to do a good design and engineering job on the next generation Q45 to really be considered to be on the level of Lexus. The Nissan GT-R really should have been marketed under the Infiniti nameplate. I wonder if they will release an Infiniti version that is more luxury-oriented. Also, when dealing with luxury brands, sales volume is really not a good indicator of "success" in the brand prestige sense. Personally, I would never buy a Lexus simply because of the fact that it's too damn common (i live in South Florida). The same goes for BMW (with the 3 series and coming out with the 1 series), and Benz (the C-Class is a brand killer). I just can't understand people spending serious money for a car that is as common as a Corolla. So the fact that Infiniti is a ways behind in sales compared to Lexus is a good thing. Also, don't sleep on Acura. The flagship RL looks too basic and they need a new NSX.

IMO, both Lexus and Infiniti are formidable cars. They simply are aiming at different targets. Infiniti's bull's eye is called BMW. Lexus's is Mercedes Benz. Infiniti emphasizes their vehicles toward performance over luxury, while Lexus leans more towards the latter.

How will eventually be the victor? Good question.

What we know about Infiniti:
- 7 years ago they were facing extinction
- seem to be always struggling financially
- had a sh!tty brand to begin with (that whole Zen nature ad campaign just blew)
- has a fleet of only 2 decent cars (G and M)

What we know about Lexus:
- top selling brand in the US
- fleet of many awesome vehicles
- has be consistently on top
- buying experience much better at Lexus than Infiniti (as a result - will get more return business)

Therefore Lexus will be the victor.

The EX and FX are both very stylish, sporty SUVs.

History says Infiniti will never get close to Lexus. Lexus has a strong, complete line-up with one dud, the SC430. Infiniti has 2 reasonably selling models, the M and the G and that is it. Lexus is not my cup of tea but it is hard to argue with Lexus's sales. If lexus could work on styling and offer a little more driver involvement it would be even more successful. Lexus has never had a beautiful car, never offensive but never a wow. I rate styling as follows, 1 BMW/Mercedes, 2 Audi, 3 Jaguar, 4 Infiniti, 5 Lexus.

Not all History says that. The G and the M have out sold the IS and the G more months then they haven't in the last 5 years. As they apply the same philosophy around their other cars, look for the same thing to happen in the other segments. The key here is that the leaders at Nissan understand the mistakes of the past. It takes time to turn things around (not just in what they produce but in what peoples perception is of what they produce). I think Infiniti will go make it as a number 2 or 3 in this segmant and will certainly cause pain for Lexus along the way!

Acura does not only exist in Noth America, China and Mexico currently have Acura dealerships. With the arrival of the next NSX Acura will go global as they had planned to in 08. It's nice to see the support, let us post a survey thread out of the three, who do people favor and we shall see.

In terms of the Japanese Brand ratings, I see Lexus as #1, Acura as #2 & Infiniti as #3. No matter what some of you may say, Acura is way beyond Infiniti! The TL's value is much higher than a G

The Luxury sport sedan game is RWD in the modern world. Acura needs an AWD model line to complete, a la Audi.

2007 hasn't been done yet, so I ask where is the TL in this list?
1. 2006 Honda S2000 — 51.7%

2. 2006 Mini Cooper — 51.5%

3. 2006 Acura TSX — 47.7%

4. 2006 BMW M3 — 47.6%

5. 2006 Mercedes-Benz SL-Class — 47.0%

2006 Mercedes-Benz SLK55 AMG — 47.0%

7. 2006 Infiniti G35 — 46.9%

8. 2006 Acura RSX — 46.5%

9. 2006 Lexus SC 430 — 46.5%

10. 2006 Subaru Impreza WRX STI — 46.4%

By the way that list was off of edmunds.com and the tests were performed by intellichoice.

montyz, I didn't even know what that list was... I had to search for it. Next time put a caption. "RESIDUAL VALUE". BTW, Acura has been known to have great residual value:

http://www.forbesautos.com/advice/toptens/resale/01-resale_value.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/basics/2004-10-08-mym-autos_x.htm
5) Acura TL


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I found this article from vtec.net. Acura sales are down. I've seen similiar numbers in the other months too. Interestingly, It's about how shitty Acura sales have been (relative to previous years) which makes this even funnier.

Sales Figures April 2007:

Make/Model | Volume | Percentage change

Acura TL | 5350 | -27%
Lexus IS250/350 | 4363 | -0.2%
Lexus ES350 | 6544 | +54%
Infiniti G35 (sedan only) | 4491 | -72%
BMW 3-series (all models coupe, sdn, conv) | 13142 | +17%
Mercedes C class (all models) | 5131 | +27%

Acura TL is down -27%! But still outsells G35. C class, and IS250/350. Tell me which is the more popular car? That is why Acura can wait 5 years before releasing a new version of their cars. This is the most anti-acura site I have ever been to.

The Lexus ES350 is also incredibly popular. That doesn't make it (or the TL) a particularly excellent car.

One exception is the 3 Series. It leads the class in sales for a reason: it's the best. BMW deserves its success.

As for the G35? Are you comparing that to last year's sedan-only sales? Because that result is questionable.

new model year for c-class, of course it will be outsold.

S4cabriofoxone
BTW, the post was abotu residual value. duh. Anyways, Just because you say the Acura TL sucks, doesn't make it true. You make it seem like the Acura TL was a flop...

The TL is getting older but it was and still is a success. There are a million more articles you can find online from respected auto sites that say the same thing about the TL. One of the best even though it is FF.

Consumers most wanted 2004, 2005:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/consumersmostwanted/2004/
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/consumersmostwanted/2005/

Introduction of redesigned BMW 3 series:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/consumersmostwanted/2006/

Cadillac CTS:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/consumersmostwanted/2007/

Also, the G35 Sedan vs. the TL sedan makes sense comparison makes more sense. Also the sedan sales rose 72% while the TL sales declined 27%. It was an even bigger disparity last year! The minus sign should have been a plus sign.

The TL does not "suck," but it's far from class-leading and is extremely bland in the same vein as the Lexus ES.

This is coming from a former TL owner. It's not a very impressive car. Granted, it's significantly improved from 12 years ago when I got mine, but the competition has moved forward quicker.

The two company's should't be mentioned in the same sentence.Infiniti's broke compared to Lexus.Lexus committed to 23billion in plants equiptment and R&D. also has 140 prtypes on the drawing board that's 38,000 dollars a minute.Mercedes and BMW are the ones who are in deep SH** and they know it.If Infiniti didn't use incentives (jacked up residuals)their sales would be even more insignifant than they are now.

BMW and Mercedes are hardly in trouble. Look at the sales of the 3 series and 5 series and compare them to the IS and GS, same with Mercedes. Lexus is formidable compettion but only in the U.S. In Europe Lexus is hardley known. If one looks at worldwide sales Lexus is still a small player. Lexus type vehicles do not seem to be playing on the world stage. Lexus replaced Cadillac as the car average Americans (if there is such a thing)aspire to.

ah, the cliche "lexus is small in europe" thing again. as of right now...maybe. say that again in 10 years

BMW is holding on to its market share with the 3&5 series and both are subventing their residuals to keep pace with Lexus who doesn't to raise their residuals to sell their cars. Everybody keeps bringing up europe europe who cares I live in the U.S. in just 10years Lexus came in and Kicked BMW's ass.If they wanted europe they could take it in the same amount of time.Wake up you morons Toyota\Lexus could buy BMW and Mercedes cash.

They've been there for 10 years already and nothing's changed

They haven't tried yet it takes Billions in infrastructure (dealers) before it can happen,but stay tuned homeboy.

Lexus had an excellent start here in the U.S. and has never suffered declining sales. Lexus has not figuired out Europe yet and Lexus been at it long enough to have more success than they have had.

this is one of the best and quality post from the agent...

Toyota\Lexus could buy BMW and Mercedes cash....i love that type of talk, cause it REAL and they CAN

Lexus is the true victor the question is CAN Infiniti n Acura catch them?
i think Infinti can, release the Q, bring back the J30 (a very classy car in its time) as a bigger coupe 6/SL/A5/SC fighter...

autopro, i hear u about that Europe issue, some people just dont get it, but as a business man why would i worry about Europe when im making a killin in the RICHEST country in the world? being greedy is not a good thing but whatever that just ME

"Toyota\Lexus could buy BMW and Mercedes cash....i love that type of talk, cause it REAL and they CAN"

No, they can't. Mercedes-Benz and BMW are highly successful independent companies that make money on their own. You would need to drain all of Toyota's cash to really buy out either of them.

It's fairly implicit. "Success" is who eventually ends up sustaining a significant sales margin over the other. It could also pertain to profitability and product excellence, but it's mostly numbers prowess. This will only be truly fought when both companies have all (or most) of the markets covered.

I think we can assume that "victory" in the auto industry means a healthy bottom line. Car companies are in business to move merchandise not create works of art.

I love the deboosting because my OPINION is not what they want to hear...(not that I care)...

Lexus of course! Lexus is first in the US! Infiniti is nothing compared to Lexus!

lexus if you HATE to drive.

infiniti if you LOVE to drive.

Both are great companies.

However, Infiniti does have some work to do before de-throning Lexus.

The original Q sedan had everything going for it that cars like the M35/45 have over Lexus in the fun-to-drive department. Yet that Q and its generational successors never put a dent in LS sales.

The G, FX, and M cars are all great but Infiniti really needs a new Q that can sell. Otherwise they'll likely keep that position below Lexus.

I still think a new Q that follows the path of the Maseratti quattroporte and not the Lexus LS would be a good idea.

A sexy Infiniti sports car wouldn't hurt either. But sharing anything but the engine with the GT-R would be a mistake.

And to be picky, I would love to see Infiniti move away from Bose audio systems. There are still a lot of great audio companies who haven't paired up with a car manufacturer yet (Definitive Technology, Mirage, Snell, etc.)

i think what infiniti really need to do now is to improve their brand image. people see them as a sporty and a little luxury brand. but not a pure luxury brand.

to AGENT 001: My dear Agent 001, Having posted an excellent and well written article on the BMW-1 series, I'm afraid you're back to your old shenanigans with yet another ghastly post headed by a needless headline. I don't like being a bogeyman here but I may have to keep you on your toes so that you find your better journalistic self, which we all know you have within you. Not this opportunistic, half hearted ghost image that shoves in immature bromides such as this one-'who will win, Infiniti or Lexus..'
Has BMW 'WON' against Mercedes? Has Audi 'WON' against Jaguar? Has Agent 009 'WON' against Agent 004? Has your left butt cheek 'WON' against your right one?
It would have been more appropriate if you'd asked if Infiniti has possibly wrested the sporting mantle from Lexus, much the way BMW has from Mercedes, without a puerile proclamation of 'WON'. Have a good day anyhow.

On another note, I hope your home and family in SoCal are safe. I just got back from Del-Mar and my cousin's house windows are all shattered from heat-melt.

Lyall, agreed.

Its unfortunate that this board cannot become a more intelligent and reasoned place for interesting disucssions. I think the lure of the almighty dollar intices the mods to ignite the flames and continue to add fuel as for each post (like this one) I bet the board gain hundreds of dollars in advertising revenue. A more reasoned approach would certainly cut into that cash flow...what other possible reason is there? Anyone?

I just always have to wonder why this site is so different from the rest. On any of the other more formal forums I go to (or have been to in the past), everyone has been much more civilized, and though we state our opinions we don't argue with each other over them or state them as facts. It's just strange. And it is definitely an atmosphere that has evolved over the past several years... AutoSpies wasn't always like this.

at the late AutoWeek Combustion Chamber, posts were hardly (if at all) moderated and people freely let fly at each other.

the wild ones had to go SOMEWHERE after awcc exploded and became kaput. many are at the MotorTrend.com forum. (which is moderated.) maybe a few ended up here.

I feel the posts reflect reality. People have strong opinions and I personally think it is interesting to find out what other people think.