Will The Mercedes Benz S400 Diesel Hybrid Send Lexus Back To The Drawing Board?

Will The Mercedes Benz S400 Diesel Hybrid Send Lexus Back To The Drawing Board?
Mercedes-Benz is holding the North American debut of a bold new powertrain at the Los Angeles Auto Show, open to the public November 16-23, 2007 at the LA Convention Center.

The new S400 BLUETEC HYBRID combines both clean diesel and hybrid technologies by using the latest BLUETEC diesel instead of the gasoline engine that usually helps power a hybrid.

Since hybrids use a conventional engine in concert with an electric motor, it’s not surprising that a state-of-the-art hybrid is making use of the world’s most fuel-efficient piston engine – the diesel. In its latest form, the exhaust emissions from the Mercedes-Benz BLUETEC diesel are as clean as a modern gasoline engine.

A Hybrid Concept With 40 Miles per Gallon AND V8-Like Power

Arriving after 2010, the S400 BLUETEC HYBRID with be available with a high-torque electric motor that works together with a V6 BLUETEC diesel engine to provide the performance of a V8 with the fuel economy of a four-cylinder. A total 265 horsepower and 465 pound-feet of torque is on hand – more pulling power than many conventional V8 engines – for zero to 60 mph acceleration of about 7.2 seconds, while the car is still capable of 40.5 miles per gallon (based on a European driving cycle) in highway driving. These figures are even more impressive when considering that the S-Class is a large luxury sedan.

The E320 BLUETEC is Here Now

Mercedes-Benz recently unveiled a version of its E320 BLUETEC, a diesel sedan that is available to California customers on a special two-year/24,000-mile lease through Mercedes-Benz Financial Services. The E320 BLUETEC is lease-priced on par with its gasoline-powered sibling, the E350.

The special lease program is the first step in the company’s plans to offer consumers diesel alternatives in all 50 states. Late next year, the Mercedes-Benz M-, R, and GL-Class will be among the very few SUVs that can be sold in all 50 states. These vehicles will utilize AdBlue injection, a process that adds precisely measured quantities of urea into the exhaust stream that enhances long-term emissions performance sufficient to meet stringent BIN5 (50-state) standards.

California’s stringent emissions requirements have kept new diesel automobiles models off the California market for the better part of a decade. The new E320 BLUETEC changes all that.

Distinguished as “2007 World Green Car” by an international panel of journalists earlier this year, BLUETEC denotes state-of-the-art engine and exhaust technology which produces the cleanest diesels available on the market today. Utilizing this technology, the V6-powered E320 BLUETEC diesel is able to provide the low fuel consumption of a four-cylinder compact with the torque of a V8.

Diesels – An Ideal Solution

Mercedes-Benz USA, which has sold diesels here in the United States for 40 years, believes diesels are an ideal solution for today’s luxury car buyers because they yield a significant increase in fuel efficiency without sacrificing performance or interior room. The E320 BLUETEC can go nearly 700 highway miles on a single tank of fuel.

“We’re breaking new ground here as we pave the way for the return of the diesel to California,” said Ernst Lieb, president and CEO of MBUSA. “BLUETEC is the most promising technology for customers who want to get up to 20-40 percent higher fuel efficiency without sacrificing the performance and the driving characteristics they’re used to.” According to Lieb, the California market plays a critical role in the comeback of the diesel: “In addition to being one of the top automotive markets in the world, California has tremendous influence. We know we have quite a few loyal diesel buyers there who have been waiting for the opportunity to get back into a diesel, but we also want to tap into a new group of buyers who are interested in making their dollar go farther without compromising performance or their personal style.”

Beyond their fuel efficiency, from an environmental standpoint, BLUETEC vehicles are the cleanest diesels available in the world today. Since diesels inherently burn less fuel than gasoline vehicles, they also produce significantly lower emissions of carbon dioxide (C02). Also, in BLUETEC vehicles particulate levels are reduced to levels comparable – or better than – that of gasoline-powered vehicles. Similarly, NOX emissions are reduced to meet the most stringent exhaust limits in the world.

The California lease program will function as a bridge as MBUSA prepares to begin phasing in 50-state BLUETEC vehicles nationwide starting in 2008. The first step will be the extension of the special lease program to other states which do not currently allow sales of new diesel automobiles in January 2008. Later in 2008, Mercedes will introduce another BLUETEC system on its M-, R- and GL-Class vehicles.



enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/15/2007 12:18:10 PM
+3 Boost
yes. it gets DOUBLE the mileage of the farcical LS600.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/15/2007 12:19:31 PM
+4 Boost
and this assumes you can actually achieve the LS600 claimed 20mpg. nobody has gotten that. motor trend averaged 14.9mpg.

so that would put the S400 ahead by 250% in mpg.


OblivObliv - 11/15/2007 4:55:39 PM
+3 Boost
Very cool. Ive always favored diesels over hybrids, but both of them working together it seems like would be the best option. Thats a ton of torque! That would be a fun car to drive. Id take it over anything Lexus currently offers in a heartbeat.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:28:44 PM
+6 Boost
houstoncutie, #1, the LS600hL CANNOT run with ANY V12 vehicle available. It has the "power" of a V12, but don't let that deceive you... it's slower than most eight-cylinder luxury sedans. Including the LS460.

As for the S400? It is not meant to compete with the LS600hL, as it's just about fuel efficiency, but it will definitely embarrass Lexus.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:31:22 PM
+8 Boost
Oh and, houstoncutie, I see that you neglected to mention its 465lb. ft of torque. LOL!


Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 11/15/2007 6:32:54 PM
+6 Boost
Thanks for pointing that out S4... I was about to say my E320 CDI already bests most V8s out on the road with sheer on/off switch like passing power though 0-60 still lacks from the turbo-lag.


BillBill - 11/15/2007 7:41:11 PM
+4 Boost
Houstoncutie,

Unlike Lexus, Mercedes is not claiming that this car will:

A) Compete with V12's

B) Smoke V12's

C) Deliver "fantasy fuel economy figures"

And the S-Class has been very reliable. Mercedes is back!


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/15/2007 11:05:46 PM
+3 Boost
"you must be 12 years old"

i must be 12 years old? too funny. i simply shared an opinion supported by facts. you, on the other hand, have resorted to childish tactics like name-calling.

mirror, mirror on the wall...


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 11:44:07 PM
+3 Boost
"if Lexus hadn't made the LS600h you wouldn't be seeing the S400 bluetec hybrid now."

I disagree.


SevorbeupstryIsBackSevorbeupstryIsBack - 11/16/2007 3:35:18 AM
+4 Boost
"if Lexus hadn't made the LS600h you wouldn't be seeing the S400 bluetec hybrid now. so shut up"

Hahah what a stupid thing to say... the reason why Lexus exsists is MERCEDES!

you tosser!


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/17/2007 12:55:21 AM
+3 Boost
bleek, I don't think you understood his comment.

He wasn't referring to the fact that the Benz was the first car ever made.

He was referring to the fact that Lexus literally took apart the Mercedes W124's chassis to create the first LS400. Lexus would NOT exist in their current state if Mercedes wasn't so excellent.


ICONICON - 11/15/2007 12:26:55 PM
+1 Boost
This is the other shoe to drop that most of us have been waiting for. Great development.

I know BMW,Audi are to join the Diesel parade next year as well.

Great performance, lower emissions, and outstanding MPG for this class of auto - Are you listening Lexus sycophants?


EL34EL34 - 11/15/2007 12:33:01 PM
-1 Boost
But, the Lexus has LED headlights ;)


Caddyman07Caddyman07 - 11/15/2007 5:00:13 PM
+4 Boost
I CAUGHT THE SARCASM...


AlexTxAlexTx - 11/15/2007 12:37:15 PM
-3 Boost
Peugeot was the first with a Diesel/ Hybrid, but that S Class will be so freaking expensive!
Diesel engines are very expensive to build and Hybrids too, so think both together how much it will cost!
The thing is that it will have one hell of a gas mileage!!!!


AudiphileAudiphile - 11/15/2007 1:29:27 PM
+4 Boost
Alex, you are right about hybrid powerplants being expensive. But Mercedes-Benz charges only $1,000 more for their diesel E320CDI model than they charge for their gasoline E350 model - an insignificant price increase for a vehicle costing well over $50,000. Let's hope that Mercedes applies the same price restraint to their future diesel models.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:30:30 PM
+3 Boost
IMO it will be similar in price to the S550, because it sacrifices the 550's performance for its incredible fuel efficiency. Although, it's still easily enough for most people, which is great.


LarryLarry - 11/15/2007 12:47:23 PM
-3 Boost
a great car, you have to Lexus credit for putting pressure on Mercedes to develop Diesel/ hybrid. hopefully 20 years from now we will not be so dependent on gasoline, Hydrogen, Hybrids etc.


Agent009Agent009 - 11/15/2007 2:42:00 PM
+5 Boost
1995e34 -

LOL- Name the innovations that Lexus has spawned? You probably could do it safely on one hand. Mercedes on the other hands could have volumes dedicated to them.


rok_altimarok_altima - 11/15/2007 4:22:49 PM
+1 Boost
Lets see, rear view camera pioneered by Infiniti, Laser Cruise control pioneered by Mercedes..this is just the beginning.


BillBill - 11/15/2007 7:43:26 PM
+3 Boost
1995e34, I caught the sarcasm! Brilliant!


r15mohdr15mohd - 11/15/2007 12:56:41 PM
-4 Boost
i'll use S4's line...

apples to apples please, and not apples to oranges.

the LS600hL, for the millionth time, is a competitor to the v12 variants from MB/BMW/Audi.

the MB diesel is a great vehicle...and onyl furthers the way of variations we'll have towards fuel efficiency. however, i;m still no fan of this body style for th S-class. the last gen was one of the sexiest MB's to date!


AudiphileAudiphile - 11/15/2007 1:48:53 PM
+5 Boost
1995e34 is right. Just because Lexus wants the LS600hL to be compared to V-12-powered luxury cars doesn't mean that it can't be compared to other luxury models, be they powered by V8s or turbodiesels or hybrid powertrains or whatever.
As the LS600hL has a V8 engine, Motor Trend magazine recently compared it to three other high-end V8 sedans. It came in fourth, I believe.

As the LS600hL's gasoline/electric powertrain is an alternative to the traditional gas-burning powertrain, the British magazine Auto Express compared it to another high-end sedan powered by alternative technology, the turbo-diesel-powered Audi A8 4.2 TDI. The Audi won that contest.

Both of these comparisons were perfectly legitimate, just as the diesel/electric-powered Mercedes S400 BlueTec Hybrid can be legitimately compared to the Lexus LS600hL.

Toyota and Lexus do not have a monopoly on "green" automotive technology. I am glad that other manufacturers have decided to give Toyota/Lexus some competition.


r15mohdr15mohd - 11/15/2007 1:53:40 PM
-1 Boost
just because it used hybrid tech to obtain v12 standard, doesnt mean it should be comapred vs a diesel.

from inception the LS-h was to run with the v12 counterparts. it provided v12 like numbers with v8-hybrid tech. now since most cant adhere to its position in the field, you degrade it and put it where it shouldn't be.

if lexus brought out a diesel or hybrid vehicle in this class meant for great fuel economy as a v8 standard, then by all means--compare it!

but the LS-h is meant to deliver better towards the v12's segment. which in aspects does live up to/fails in certain criteria's.

so indeed the apples/oranges does work in this scenario.


Agent009Agent009 - 11/15/2007 2:45:57 PM
+3 Boost
r15mohd -

"the LS600hL, for the millionth time, is a competitor to the v12 variants from MB/BMW/Audi."

Well they need to compare it to something. Because by the articles posted this week the LS600hL has placed last every time even against the lessor V8 variants they chose to compete against.

It pretty much have been proven they didn't offer anything near V12 performance or even close the V6 gas mileage.

Pretty surprising to me they fell so far short on both accounts.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/15/2007 7:51:50 PM
0 Boost
r15:

"the LS600hL, for the millionth time, is a competitor to the v12 variants from MB/BMW/Audi."

for the 1,000,001st time: the LS600 is a V8, accelerates like a V8 and gets the fuel economy of a V8. comprende? IT'S A V8.



1evlaudi1evlaudi - 11/15/2007 12:59:29 PM
-1 Boost
This is great technology, but not new, Audi has had a couple of diesel-hybrid powertrain in the works for a while, they did announced a couple of weeks ago that while this technology is probably the most efficient, it is also the most expensive to produce. Pr. Winterkorn was mentionning the question of cost transfer to the owner? What kind of premium such a car will come with, and will it be worth compare to the savings generated at the pump?
so kudos to M-B but kudos to Audi to think about their customers.


SpectatorSpectator - 11/15/2007 4:30:27 PM
+1 Boost
right now the fuel cost savings will not match the premium paid for the vehicle with both powertrains if I we use an average driving of 15,000-20,000miles a year and 7 years for keeping a car. However, give it a year or two. Economists are predicting $4.00 gas for next summer...and from what I hear that number will never go down again. If anything, it will increase. At the point where gas hits around $6.00 here in the US(so lets say 3 years) then the premium cost will be covered.

Diesel hybrids are perfect for those of us who commute long distances from rural areas into a congested city. Best of both worlds...diesel for getting you to the city...electric for getting you around the city.



w209w114w209w114 - 11/15/2007 3:49:54 PM
+3 Boost
Xero

This car does just what it was intended to fantastically. The LS doesnt. Have u missed every single review here of the LS600H coming in last place? A car that according to most high profile magazines overpromises and underdelivers? lacks refinement in the drivetrain and even luxury?

Congrats to Mercedes-Benz for making the first REAL green ultra luxury automobile in the world.

Build a bridge and get over it.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:36:06 PM
+1 Boost
"This diesel hybrid is good for people who want good fuel economy without sacrificing much performance, while Lexus's hybrids are good for people who want extra performance without sacrificing much fuel economy. "

Although that is actually very accurate, the LS600hL is not a good example. Its performance is not better than the LS460's. In any respect!

This car will get 100% better mileage than the LSh. That's something to be proud of. It will also get something like 150% better than the S550. And with 465lb. ft of torque, you won't be wanting for passing power. Remember, it's TORQUE that matters on the street... but horsepower, on the spec sheet.


BillBill - 11/15/2007 7:46:28 PM
+1 Boost
The performance of this car is probably understated - like all Mercedes models. 7.2 seconds will probably turn out to be 6.9 perhaps.

And the point of this car is not to drag race off-the-line, but deliver good fuel economy. That said, initial off-the-line performance will be quick thanks to the electric motor.

Let's see, Mr. XeroKool, about the so-called "ueber performance" the LS600h promised - and never delivered...


CzelinskiCzelinski - 11/15/2007 1:37:17 PM
+4 Boost
MB, if there's something worth doing. They'll do it best.


M35MTM35MT - 11/15/2007 1:37:17 PM
+5 Boost
Please put this technology in the C class, you could get 60-70 MPG and get the price down to around 40-45 (hopefully).

This tech needs to be available to more people.
Thumbs up.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:37:14 PM
+2 Boost
I agree! This engine in the C-Class would give you a 5 sec 0-60 time and 60MPG! Who WOULDN'T want that? It would probably be the best Merc since... well, maybe ever.


LuxuriousLuxurious - 11/15/2007 1:47:02 PM
-3 Boost
009 and your "creating traffic" titles by starting flame wars between u know who wnad u know who...
anyway it all depends on the pricing of the car and its availability... the E320 BlueTec was not successful here in the states and I think the LS600hl is a nice car, but I see a lot of shortcomings in it..I hope the S400 will be good, more competition especially in MPG is always better for us the consumer!


Agent009Agent009 - 11/15/2007 2:47:17 PM
+2 Boost
Actually I never compared it to the LS600hL. You guys took it and ran.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:38:13 PM
+3 Boost
How is the E320 Bluetec unsuccessful? They didn't expect it to be a volume seller.


BillBill - 11/15/2007 7:48:33 PM
0 Boost
Um, the E320 Bluetec isn't a mass-seller. Mercedes never expected to sell 10,000+ a year. Get real.

This car is also being used to test the market. I'd say for the price, performance and diesel reputation in the US, the E320 Bluetec has been successful in its own way.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/15/2007 7:55:01 PM
-2 Boost
"the E320 BlueTec was not successful here in the states"

um, it just launched this year and they've already sold far outsold the LS600.


LuxuriousLuxurious - 11/15/2007 7:59:40 PM
-1 Boost
009, we all know what you meant, and yes Lexus should go back to the drawing no matter what, there is always room for improvement...
s4..as I remember, Mercedes pulled out the E320 Bluetec from the US market!


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 11:46:36 PM
+1 Boost
Really? Because you must not live in the US, then:

http://www.mbusa.com/models/main.do?modelCode=E320BTEC


LuxuriousLuxurious - 11/16/2007 1:36:08 AM
0 Boost
s4...I don't know how true it is, but here you go:
http://www.autospies.com/news/Farewell-E320-Bluetec-15819/


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/17/2007 12:57:58 AM
+2 Boost
Hm, I remembered that article right when I read your original comment.

However, it isn't true. The E320 BLUETEC will still be sold here--as will all other BLUETEC cars. However, the STANDARD diesel sedans (E420/S420 CDI, C220 CDI etc.) will not be available in the US, ever. We will only be able to get the Bluetec versions of their diesel cars. SUVs are different, though--emissions are less strict for the 'utes, so we will see the plain "CDI" models sold here.


markusckmarkusck - 11/18/2007 11:04:34 AM
+1 Boost
The autospies article about pulling the bluetec was inaccurate and corrected (I think the linked article had a retraction)...and yes the bluetec is sold in the US.


JUGNUJUGNU - 11/15/2007 2:31:40 PM
-2 Boost
agree with xeroKOOL

265 horsepower,0-60 in 7.2. HAHAH so that's V8 Power.

Welcome to 21st century MB. Some of today's 6 cylinders make more power than that Pos.like Inifnti's 6 Cylinder which makes 330BHP.

JUGNU


w209w114w209w114 - 11/15/2007 3:43:19 PM
+2 Boost
JUGNU

Youre ignoring the fact that it gets over 200% better gas mileage than what Toyota/Lexus calls "the worlds greenest super sedan" What other car in history this sie gets that MPG?

The buyer for this car will be dropping 120K for what he wants. The best luxury car in the segment in terms of styling, luxury, technology, and comfort. If he wanted speed he can buy a Maserati. Not a whale like the LS600h

Youre just a hater because you have never had a Mercedes. Your opinion is baseless.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:40:52 PM
+3 Boost
JUGNU, you're ignoring the fact that it has 465 lb. ft of torque(!!!!!!!) and how it gets mileage on par with the Toyota Corolla, if not better. You have nothing to base your complaints on. Of course you will lose some performance to get that kind of incredible mileage, but to downplay this amazing step in engineering like that is simply ignorant. You are unwilling to accept Merc's engineering genius.

And even then, you're not losing much performance at all. Although "0-60 in 7.2" doesn't look good on a spec sheet, 465lb. ft won't be half bad on the street. It also still has all the style and luxury of any other S-Class.


BillBill - 11/15/2007 7:55:21 PM
+1 Boost
Jugnu, please tell me which S400 Bluetec buyer will actually floor their car at every stoplight. 7.2 seconds as I stated above is probably an understated time - companies do that to avoid a lawsuit (except Lexus, which overstates!).

I'm willing to bet that the average LS460 or LS600h buyer simply cruises around in their car, hardly ever hitting the pedal to the medal...


CzelinskiCzelinski - 11/15/2007 2:53:49 PM
-5 Boost
People buy the S-Class to tow their boats.

People won't buy an LS600h as well, so nothing will need towing into the sea.


gsh23gsh23 - 11/15/2007 3:40:36 PM
+2 Boost
you make almost no sense.


Agent63Agent63 - 11/16/2007 4:23:47 PM
+1 Boost
I never bought my s class to tow a boat. that's what an SUV or a truck is for if you want to tow something. lol i dont know where you coming from.


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 11/15/2007 3:32:16 PM
+1 Boost
Why does a post about Mercedes have to mention Lexus. I love how Autospies and those who posts these stories love to stir up arguments. Why can't it just be "Mercedes Benz S400 Diesel Hybrid" why does it have to hit Lexus?


w209w114w209w114 - 11/15/2007 3:46:19 PM
+4 Boost
Because its the only other ultra luxury sedan that strides for the same goal. Fuel economy, and environmental "greenness" or whatever you want to call it. Everyone knows that


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 11/15/2007 4:12:07 PM
+1 Boost
First of all, these are no where near ultra Luxury. They are fullsize luxuries, not ultra luxuries.

With that said, what about A8 4.2 TDI? 745d? those are great performers in fuel economy.


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 11/15/2007 4:14:24 PM
-1 Boost
It has nothing to do with Mercedes' insecurity or fear. It has to do with Autospies naming the title to stir up arguments.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:43:11 PM
+2 Boost
Why would we be scared of the LS600hL?

I think that if anyone is "scared" of another brand's engineering prowess... it would be you guys and the S400 Bluetec Hybrid.


gsh23gsh23 - 11/15/2007 3:52:50 PM
-1 Boost
oh and diesel naturally gets higher mpg than gasoline. oh and a V6 naturally uses less gas than a v8. we arent comparing performance figures here. gs450h analogies no not apply, since we know that it didnt really perform up to the standards of the 545i or e500. but it did get better mpg.


c36amgc36amg - 11/15/2007 4:05:08 PM
+1 Boost
yes ANOTHER VICTORY FOR MERCEDES !!! go on & brush aside so called competitors.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 5:46:01 PM
+4 Boost
And not only that... but Merc's time is slightly understated, with Lexus's being overstated. 6 sec is more normal for the LSh, which is also a full second behind the Audi A8L W12 and Jaguar Super V8. Furthermore the S600 can get 4.2-4.4 sec times.


autoproautopro - 11/15/2007 7:13:39 PM
0 Boost
It won't have the performance of a gas/hybrid,but I said a few months ago that diesel/hybrid would work well.Lexus has all the hybrid experience it needs they just need to mate it with a diesel.


farabira1farabira1 - 11/15/2007 8:04:31 PM
+2 Boost
I have heard plenty of comments recently about the LS 600HL and on one previous article comparing MPG of LS 600HL and Audi A8 Tdi i pointed out that the LS600HL is not about MPG but cleaner emissions, then another blogger replied by commenting that emission depends on the amount of fuel burned and since the LS 600HL burns more fuel, it would be environmentally more damaging than the diesel A8. Well i want to add to his comments that Petrol are mostly derived from catalytically cracked alkanes and they range from 5to 8 carbon chains and have energy content of around 34MJ/kg. And than you have to be concerned with octane rating, because of possibility of knocking phenomenon. Compared to this Diesel can not have any knocking phenomenon, because no spark is needed to start engine compression, and it has energy content of about 38MJ/kg. So overall diesel contains more energy per kg than petrol. Now in terms of emissions, because of mixture of low number c chains, the petrol produces actually more CO2 emission than Diesel which has usually from 10 to 15 C chains.

So My previous impression that diesels are more damaging to environment was flawed. To be precise the difference in C02 emission is about

214g/km of CO2 for petrol while only about 169g/km of CO2 for diesel.

So clearly thumbs up to Mercedes for their new effort, and I also think that Lexus should reconsider their effort with the LS600 HL. Like Mercedes, even they should develop the engine for diesel, simply because it has more MPG and is cleaner for the air.


BigShow50BigShow50 - 11/15/2007 8:40:16 PM
+1 Boost
I'm amazed by the MB fan boys to fall into this creative accounting by MB mating the Hybrid with Diesel. Great achievement that's for sure, but keep in mind that it's mated to a V6, not a V8, plus you have the diesel to make up for the lack of torque and over all power to move the 2 ton plus tank. So if Lexus came up with their V6 mated with a hybrid diesel into their LS, that they would actually get as equal if not better milage and performance. But they choose not to. In the large luxury sedan segment, MB took 10 steps back based on class of engine size. I would understand this acticle to be more justified if they made this achievement with MB's own V8 right off the bat. But they simply did not do that, b/c they know better that they would have not been able to achieve a more cost effective way to do it, otherwise the price point would have been too much to justify in sales vs fuel efficiency. So that being said, based on MB's available production release of 2010(at least?!?!?), by then Lexus' hybrid tech would be greatly improved, cost that much less in premium, and finally mated to a hybrid diesel V8 at that point, the article would then say "MB is now back to the drawing board again"...great marketing promo now from MB i have to say just to save face for that matter. For now all show, no go for MB. C'mon MB you are givin' Lexus 2 extra years at least to come up with something more interesting and efficient....for all we know Lexus may have something ready to just drop the bomb on everybody when it comes to Hybrid tech in the coming years, let alone diesel tech mated. Remember Toyota/Lexus now own part of Izuzu(underestimated company) which is one the leaders in diesel tech...it's only a matter of time ladies.


BillBill - 11/15/2007 9:08:08 PM
0 Boost
Huh?

You make no sense to me. Might want to try elaborating on the English a little bit...


BigShow50BigShow50 - 11/15/2007 8:40:18 PM
0 Boost
I'm amazed by the MB fan boys to fall into this creative accounting by MB mating the Hybrid with Diesel. Great achievement that's for sure, but keep in mind that it's mated to a V6, not a V8, plus you have the diesel to make up for the lack of torque and over all power to move the 2 ton plus tank. So if Lexus came up with their V6 mated with a hybrid diesel into their LS, that they would actually get as equal if not better milage and performance. But they choose not to. In the large luxury sedan segment, MB took 10 steps back based on class of engine size. I would understand this acticle to be more justified if they made this achievement with MB's own V8 right off the bat. But they simply did not do that, b/c they know better that they would have not been able to achieve a more cost effective way to do it, otherwise the price point would have been too much to justify in sales vs fuel efficiency. So that being said, based on MB's available production release of 2010(at least?!?!?), by then Lexus' hybrid tech would be greatly improved, cost that much less in premium, and finally mated to a hybrid diesel V8 at that point, the article would then say "MB is now back to the drawing board again"...great marketing promo now from MB i have to say just to save face for that matter. For now all show, no go for MB. C'mon MB you are givin' Lexus 2 extra years at least to come up with something more interesting and efficient....for all we know Lexus may have something ready to just drop the bomb on everybody when it comes to Hybrid tech in the coming years, let alone diesel tech mated. Remember Toyota/Lexus now own part of Izuzu(underestimated company) which is one the leaders in diesel tech...it's only a matter of time ladies.


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 11/15/2007 9:57:35 PM
-2 Boost
The Volt is better. I mean the Tesla is better. Oh, are we talking about real cars yet???? The S400 is a concept. Nobody knows what the real numbers will be like, performance or fuel economy. No one knows how much it will cost to develop this system, and how much will be passed on to the consumer.

We do know that the LS600hL does not meet the goals of many posters on this ite. Whether it met Lexus' internal goals we will never know. It cannot be compared to a regular LS460, because it is laden with every feature, plus AWD. Maybe Lexus needs to throw this hybrid engine into a stripped down SWB LS to show you all what the engine is capable of (or how bout in a GS600h, ooooooo, be still my heart.) And when the next gen hybrid engine/battery is ready to be put under the hood, watch out.

Toyota and Lexus dont tip their hat often. Other mfrs just keep telling u how much their (potential) future cars beat the current Lexus/Toyota offerings. And you alljust keep eating it up, while Toy/Lex keeps chugging along, blissful to your rantings.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/15/2007 11:49:19 PM
+3 Boost
"Oh, are we talking about real cars yet???? The S400 is a concept. Nobody knows what the real numbers will be like, performance or fuel economy. No one knows how much it will cost to develop this system, and how much will be passed on to the consumer."

It's obvious (and even stated by the article) that this car WILL make production, and that its powertrain is already fairly production-ready. Don't be surprised to see all the figures above stay the same for the 2010 S400 Bluetec Hybrid... starting at $85,000.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/16/2007 1:24:12 AM
+1 Boost
"We do know that the LS600hL does not meet the goals of many posters on this site"

CORRECTION. we do know that the LS600 has not met the goals that LEXUS said it would reach. remember V12 performance and V6 gas mileage? turns out it's V8 acceleration and V8 mileage.


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 11/16/2007 8:25:27 PM
0 Boost
S4, I will be surprised if I see this by 2010, but if so, I would be less surprised if the LS600hL has not been updated by then with the gen 4 Synergy drive.

enthusiast, 20-22 mpg for a full sized luxo-barge with AWD would definitely be V-6 like economy. No way a V-8 could get that mpg on this vehicle. and the performance is jut a couple tenths from what one would reasonably expect from a V-12 (and I understand passing speeds 30-50, etc are awesome.) Again, AWD, extended wheelbase, loaded w/luxury. All this, u lose a couple tenths. did I mention SULEV??

But going over (ad nauseum) the Lexus strengths is not my point. In some metrics, it could be better. My point is that it WILL be better by the time these supposed competitors come along.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/17/2007 1:06:03 AM
+1 Boost
"S4, I will be surprised if I see this by 2010, but if so, I would be less surprised if the LS600hL has not been updated by then with the gen 4 Synergy drive."

I don't believe Lexus will dramatically revise any of the LS's powertrains any time soon. You will have to wait until the next-gen model to see a new hybrid drive.

"enthusiast, 20-22 mpg for a full sized luxo-barge with AWD would definitely be V-6 like economy."

Audi A8 3.2 quattro: 24MPG

http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/full-specification.jsp?version_id=5035

The 28.5MPG figure (European cycle) was quoted, and I translated it to US MPG. And that's only the "combined" cycle... I would say it gets around 28MPG on the highway and 20 in the city.

Mercedes-Benz S350 4Matic: the exact same figures, according to mercedesbenz.co.uk--28.5MPG combined. The S350 4Matic also gets about 31MPG on the highway, which leads me to believe the A8 3.2 quattro would get this, too.

Both are higher than the LS600hL. It does not get six-cylinder fuel economy.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/15/2007 11:14:30 PM
+1 Boost
you just don't get it...the LS600 LOST to a stable of V8 cars....quattroporte, S550, super V8. it would be crushed by the S600 or the W12.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 11/15/2007 11:18:32 PM
+2 Boost
FYI..it's not faster than the 5-year old 760.

the 760 will hit 60 in 5.1 seconds (see link). and the LS600 does it in 5.6 (the same as the S550 per this month's comparison in motor trend).

get your facts straight.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/13479/2003-bmw-760li.html


SevorbeupstryIsBackSevorbeupstryIsBack - 11/16/2007 3:33:33 AM
+2 Boost
Diesel hybrids make so much more sense to me.

Good work Mercedes.


LE34LE34 - 11/16/2007 4:27:34 AM
+1 Boost
Agent009, why do want to start always theses flame wars. I start to beleive that you just feel good when see poeple here insulting eachother and you have pleasure with this. All those disussions above are about two cars which are both(to be honest) Great and one of them is even still a concept.
What bout if each of us respects other's pleasure and point of view????


Agent63Agent63 - 11/16/2007 4:32:05 AM
+6 Boost
Mercedes never claims numbers they can't achieve. I own both the LS 460 and the S550. Both are awesome to drive, comfortable, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here. We all know where Mercedes stands in the world of luxury brands and where Lexus stands. Enough said.

As much as Lexus is a luxury brand, when you mention luxury, Mercedes is the #1 recognized company aside from the Bentley's, Rolls Royces, and Maybach's.


autoproautopro - 11/16/2007 4:09:44 PM
0 Boost
For now.but a runaway train is comming.


Agent63Agent63 - 11/16/2007 4:31:20 PM
+2 Boost
Whoa whoa whoa! hold what you say.

100 years of horrible cars? have you seen what Mercedes have done in the last 100 years? Do you know what a Gullwing is? do you know what ABS is? Three point seat belts? and the list goes on. You give Mercedes to little credit and you give Lexus way too much.

And please don't use that excuse again to run from the fact that Mercedes is the superior brand. Also don't use the "quality" as reasoning for Lexus to be better cars. I own the S and the LS so I can speak on both parts. The S has no quality flaws and is of top grade. Mercedes is coming back with quality. They never lacked luxury but the materials used weren't the best that is all.

And yes thanks to Mercedes, Lexus made Benz-inspired cars and continue to do so with their LS with MAYBACH inspired rear seats. Don't tell me Lexus came up with that on their own.


JUGNUJUGNU - 11/16/2007 5:04:00 AM
0 Boost
fastonekiller

"The only area the LS600h would beat the V12 competitors is gas mileage......
Performance wise the LS600h is NO MATCH to its V12 rivals."

The only area the S400 would beat the V8 competitors is gas mileage.

Performance wise the S400 is NO MATCH to the 6 cylinder's let alone its V8 rivals.

BTW i find it interesting when it comes to LS600h the area in which the car is less strong (compares to V12 rivals) becomes priority, example Performance and ignorants don't care about Mileage. They say in this category it's not important blah blah.....

but when it comes to S400 the performance doesn't matter ( because S400's not good, hahaha). It’s the mileage which is.

What a double standards.

entusiast
"CORRECTION. we do know that the LS600 has not met the goals that LEXUS said it would reach. remember V12 performance and V6 gas mileage? turns out it's V8 acceleration and V8 mileage. "

Lexus never said V6 gas mileage (maybe u r confusing it with GS450h or just being plain ignorant).They said V8 mileage, and in performance it's on par with normal V12's like 760i and A8 W12 (maybe not the twin turbo S600).

Don't believe all that propogandaisshh and biased magazine. In all LS600h tests it was compared to wrong competitors but never to it's real competitors (V12)

When it will be compared to V12s, we will see.

JUGNU


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/17/2007 1:09:40 AM
0 Boost
""The only area the LS600h would beat the V12 competitors is gas mileage......
Performance wise the LS600h is NO MATCH to its V12 rivals."

The only area the S400 would beat the V8 competitors is gas mileage."

BUT THE S400 DOESN'T PRETEND TO BE SOMETHING IT IS NOT.

The S400 is PURELY a fuel-efficient luxury sedan. It DOES NOT try to be a performance sedan, and Mercedes IS NOT saying it is as fast as a twelve-cylinder car. Lexus MADE THOSE CLAIMS. And they were WRONG.

That is the difference.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/17/2007 1:14:43 AM
+2 Boost
"BTW i find it interesting when it comes to LS600h the area in which the car is less strong (compares to V12 rivals) becomes priority, example Performance and ignorants don't care about Mileage. They say in this category it's not important blah blah.....

but when it comes to S400 the performance doesn't matter ( because S400's not good, hahaha). It’s the mileage which is."

We aren't saying the S400 is a performance car. Because IT ISN'T. It has NO focus on acceleration, and that's why Mercedes-Benz was able to achieve such impressive numbers. And you're absolutely right, performance DOES NOT MATTER IN THIS CAR. I will say it again: PERFORMANCE DOES NOT MATTER IN THE S400. If you want performance, buy an S550. The S400 Bluetec Hybrid is for those who care about the environment, but don't want to sacrifice luxury and style.

Have you heard that one before? Oh, from Lexus? Right! Except they FAILED! It still gets terrible mileage! And in the Lexus's case, they promised performance, but didn't deliver. That's why performance matters in the LS600hL. They said it would HAVE it. It doesn't! Mercedes isn't playing games--they know this car is for fuel efficiency. And to be honest, I would love this car. Although I would need a faster, more fun car at home, it would give me 35MPG and all the comfort and sexy style I'd ever want. Who could argue with that?

"They said V8 mileage, and in performance it's on par with normal V12's like 760i and A8 W12 (maybe not the twin turbo S600)."

For the last time, the LS600hL cannot keep up with the A8L W12.

LS600hL avg 0-60 time: 6.0 sec

A8L W12 avg: 5.0 sec

Is that enough?

"Don't believe all that propogandaisshh and biased magazine. In all LS600h tests it was compared to wrong competitors but never to it's real competitors (V12)

When it will be compared to V12s, we will see."

I'm not even going to begin. LOL!


MateMate - 11/16/2007 9:35:38 AM
+1 Boost
houstoncutie2000 is an f'in retard


RupertRupert - 11/16/2007 11:33:38 AM
+4 Boost
I think V8 like power is a bit of a stretch...but 40 US mpg.
In an S class.
A car that weighs more than 2 and a bit tons.
Holy crap.

BTW, its performance is identical the S350 we get in Europe, but has like 75% better mileage.


SevorbeupstryIsBackSevorbeupstryIsBack - 11/16/2007 11:37:56 AM
+3 Boost
I know, isn't that great?


RupertRupert - 11/16/2007 4:50:37 PM
+3 Boost
Wonder what it will cost and how long before every single executive taxi firm has one...if they get it out soon we can say bye bye to the LS600 as that's as fast as it but with half the fuel economy.
I'm guessing they won't bother with the bluetec stuff for Europe though as they don't need to so that will bring down the price.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/17/2007 1:08:15 PM
+2 Boost
"I don't think the LS600hL is worrying about not delivering V12 performance. The A8 W12 is equal to the LS600h."

No, it's NOT.

What do you base your claims on?

Automobile magazine quotes the W12 at 5.1 sec.

The Truth About Cars? 5.0 sec.

Even Edmunds.com, famous for their inconsistent acceleration times, got the W12 in 5.8 sec... but they couldn't break the 6.0 sec barrier with the LS600hL.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/17/2007 1:09:45 PM
+2 Boost
"You're a fool. Take the L off the LS and put a German name on it, it'll win comparisons hands down, no testing required."

I'm sorry, but this is just pathetic.

If this is your argument, you just have no idea, do you?

The press is NOT BIASED. There is no CONSPIRACY against Lexus. If the Lexus was GOOD and worth the money, THEN it would win! What a concept!


EL34EL34 - 11/17/2007 12:12:15 PM
+2 Boost
BTW, it was the Germans that invented the drawing board ;)


david999david999 - 11/18/2007 8:19:18 AM
-2 Boost

HA HA now we are supposed to believe that this 6 cylinder MB is an economy car
based on claimed fuel numbers for a vehicle not in production (if ever) for at least another 2 years? People here want to crucify Lexus for a V12 competitor LS600hL
even though it is in production and clearly outperforms any V12 out their in terms of emissions and fuel economy, but may not be as fast as a other V12s (.5 sec).
The bias of the badge whores is very comical indeed.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/18/2007 1:01:21 PM
+1 Boost
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

You buy cars based on reliability alone.

That says enough, no?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/18/2007 6:08:31 PM
+1 Boost
"It states the only other car to clearly outrun the LS is the S600."

No, the A8L W12 AND S600 "clearly" outrun the LS600hL, whether you think so or not. Even 0.1 sec is a difference, but in this case the W12 is a half-second quicker than the Lexus, or more.

"Look at the C/D observed numbers, can any of the others hit 20mpg observed?"

The A8L W12 can get 18MPG (2008) in mixed driving, but it's quicker than the Lexus. The 760Li, which is just as quick as the LS600hL, if not quicker, also gets 18MPG.

Face it, huu, the LS does not pose any significant mileage advantage. Motor Trend got it to average a dismal 14.9MPG. And contrary to what you keep saying over and over (and ignoring my comments), NO, it CANNOT keep up with the twelve-cylinder sedans--it can't even keep up with the LS460.

"Same legs, better endurance and it has 500lbs more to haul around than the A8."

Slower legs, 1MPG better than the others. Is that really what you would consider an improvement? And why does it HAVE to weigh 500lbs more than the W12? Because of the hybrid! The hybrid motor, which is supposed to help it, does the opposite. This is an eight-cylinder HYBRID, after all, so it should be getting better mileage than its eight-cylinder GASOLINE counterpart but it doesn't. On the other hand, diesel eight-cylinder sedans get significantly better mileage than their gasoline counterparts, as well as having equal/better performance due to their awesome torque. Are you beginning to see the diesel advantage?


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