Do buyer's today want vehicles that are more luxury oriented or sport?

maybach is a great example.

I agree I think performance these days is definitely the more important of the two, however you can't have one with out the other, they're hand-in-hand.

Personally I prefer a nice combination of both, so for myself IMO, I'm driving a near perfect car.

Agreed. There is no definite answer to this question.

There is no definite answer, because there are people who still want luxury and not performance. What we do know is that the manufacturers are all about performance.

Definitely, the S65/S63 is the best combination of performance and luxury. The Quattroporte is another good one, basically a comfortable everyday Ferrari.

When you get older, luxury (focused on comfort) becomes a priority. Younger folk with more flexible bodies overlook the lack of creature comforts and are willing to put up with the harsher ride and cramped quarters that manufacturers provide for the sporty crowd. That is why I reject the new Mercedes C-Class even though I love its style.

I see no reason why a car should not combine the best of both worlds and cars like Audi and Mercedes have achieved that in many models; however, their marketing boys are still responsible for silly things like the overuse of harsh-riding low-profile tires, front bumpers that get damaged because they hang too low, and seats that have excessive side bolsters that interfere with entry into and exit from the car. Sporty features should all be stand-alone options and the basic car should be designed to be as luxurious as possible.

Wow, so much BS in that post.

Lexus GS = 50/50 sporty and luxury? I'd say the GS = 10% sport and 90% luxury. Guess you got fooled by that Lexus advertisement showing the GS handling like a Lotus...

And the LS doesn't touch the Rolls Royce or Maybach. They don't even compete. Please spare us this fanboy crap.

One more thing. The 7er doesn't handle like a 3-Series at all.

No, Bleek, you're the moron here. The first generation GS was "sporty"? How so? It couldn't handle on the same level as the BMW 5-Series. Ironically it wasn't even that comfortable either (I've driven it), so spare me your BS.

And the LS doesn't compete with the Maybach or Phantom. Get that out of your head, fanboy. Both the Rolls and 'Bach have ultra smooth and quiet engines too, so what? Big deal.

And I personally couldn't care less what Jeremy Clarkson says or thinks. And for your information he never said the LS competes with Rolls Royce or Maybach. Mr. Clarkson said that this level of refinement can be compared to those two European luxury cars. And while we're at it, the S-Class and A8, even the 7-Series or the Jaguar XJ are equally refined machines.

"Hate the 7 series because it handles just like the 3 series. wooop tii dooo. i spend $100 g's and get a car that's basically a 3 series only bigger."

And, uhh... I hope you know that this is the highest compliment. The 7, handles like a 3? That would make it the best big sedan on the planet. It isn't, and it doesn't handle like a 3 Series, but if it did it would be absolutely amazing.

Apparently you have never driven a 7 series! or for that matter a three, because eveen a three handles beter than a GS. Don't even go there

I totally agree with you, the Lexus GS350 is almost 50/50 sport and luxury. It has almost the best balance of both worlds. I have 18inch sport wheels and it make the ride sporty but yet smooth. I have an Audi A8L, Infiniti G35 coupe, so I know that the GS fits in between both very nicely.

To me, performance is the most important thing, but some people like luxury cars. When people get older, they tend to like luxury cars more.

LOL! Are you joking?

You think all of those rappers with Bentleys and 300Cs don't have Lambos and Ferraris at home, too?

"The 7, handles like a 3? That would make it the best big sedan on the planet." Well the 7-series comes fairly close to being as nimble & handling as well as a 3-series, it's dynamic drive can be thanked for that. In most slalom tests I've seen the 7-series produce 3-series like #'s.

When I went to the BMW driving school, believe it or not the 7-series was one of the favorites to throw around the track, next to the M3, M5 & M coupe they hand on hand (The 335i coupe hadn't been released yet). There were also a 330i & a 545i on hand that day, the 545i wasn’t equipped with the 7’s dynamic drive, which made it less nimble than it’s bigger brother.

I think I am one of the odd ones because I have yet to find a company that makes a car how I like. I love the sporty looking exteriors and options like suspension, engine, etc. (think AMG), but yet for the interiors I like them as luxurious as possible. The problem is when you buy something like an AMG you can't get the neutral leather with wood trim, it always comes in black with carbon fiber or aluminum accents, and I don't like that.

Another one is the Acura TL Type-S, love the exterior, the upgraded engine and looks, but the interior display has been switched from blue to red. Why can't I get the luxury interior with a sporty exterior?

go drive a CL63, with wood I think that you would be pleasantly surprised.

"The problem is when you buy something like an AMG you can't get the neutral leather with wood trim, it always comes in black with carbon fiber or aluminum accents, and I don't like that."

Actually, there is no carbon fiber available in any Mercedes-Benz right now. The only ones with aluminum are the CLK63 AMG, C63 AMG and SLR McLaren.

On the other hand, the E63 AMG, CLS63 AMG, ML63 AMG, S63 AMG, CL63 AMG... all of them have wood trim. The S and CL AMG interiors are particularly sumptuous. If you have the money, try out an S63 or CL63 AMG and you will love it. If not, try the E63 AMG.

...And if you still can't afford that, well, you probably shouldn't be expecting a car of that nature for the price you want to pay.

The market is definitely leaning towards performance. Everyone is after BMW right now. Cars that are floaty or frightening through the twisties are panned by the press and consumers alike.

I like a combination, something like 60/40 sport/luxury.

"you can't have one with out the other, they're hand-in-hand"

I strongly disagree with the above statement, as some of the best performance vehicles ever conceived are anything but luxurious... Witness the brilliantly performing LOTUS ELISE/EXIGE.

Even when BMW sets out to market the 'ultimate' iteration of it's premiere performance sedan, the M3, it does so by omitting frivolous 'luxury items' in an effort to save weight - Witness the BWM M3 CSL (M3 Lightweight).

The two (luxury and performance) are very easily separated, today's manufacturers have just forced the mindset that they are synonymous.

Owning high performance vehicles may indeed be a luxury, but the vehicles themselves need not be luxurious.

"Even when BMW sets out to market the 'ultimate' iteration of it's premiere performance sedan, the M3, it does so by omitting frivolous 'luxury items' in an effort to save weight..."

The CSL is not the normal M3. Buyers have the option of choosing the M3 OR the CSL, and the normal M is available with all of the luxury features found in the rest of the 3 Series line, plus a few more.

Who ever said that the M3 CSL was the 'normal' M3?

It IS the ULTIMATE ITERATION of the M3 from a performance perspective (Which happens to be what I clearly posted).

CSL is distinguished from its standard M3 sibling by a different wheel design, larger integrated rear spoiler and a large air intake hole on the left side of the front bumper.

Weight loss was achieved through use of a carbon-fiber roof, carbon-fiber trunk lid, lighter exhaust manifold, thinner rear glass, carbon fiber interior door panels and console, lightweight racing seats, and the removal of side air bags.

Note: Several other features standard in the regular M3 such as air conditioning and audio system were also deleted.

So what exactly Is Your Point?

Well, you were referring to the CSL in being an "every day" performance BMW, i.e. the pinnacle of their line. Well, no. The average M is the M3. The M3 is not as narrowly focused as the CSL. It is just as luxurious as it is sporty.

The M3 is not luxurious. It is pure performance. The CSL is just even more pure performance.

The M3 is not luxurious. It is pure performance. The CSL is just even more pure performance.

How is the M3 not luxurious, Anthony, when it offers all of the niceties of the 335i coupe? It could be used as a GT OR a sports car.

And did I say they did?

Actually, the combination of the two is what modern consumers are looking for. The m3, c350 sport, e55 amg. Most people that i see would pick the combination over one of the two

A brand can be true if they offer both luxury and sport. Look at BMW. They're known for their sporty handling, but you can't deny that they're also luxurious. Those types of cars are the ones I like: sport/luxury cars. That's why I bought my IS. I love the thrill of speed when I want it and I also like the smooth ride. It's the best of both worlds.

Lexus is still leading sales races with their luxury vehicles (ES, RX). Even if you look at it from the lower-end perspective, the Camry still outsells the slightly more sporty Altima and Accord.

And? Lexus doesn't MAKE any performance cars. That's a bad example.

Or if they do (would you consider the SC a "performance" car?), they're not up to snuff with the rest of the line.

The best-selling BMW is the 3, a sporty car. The best-selling Infiniti is the G, which is sporty, and which rendered the more ES-like I35 obsolete. The M45 is also a hot seller... but the Q45 (more luxurious) had to be discontinued because it couldn't sell. The best-selling Nissan is the Altima, and not the Maxima. The new Malibu, with better handling, will be selling vastly better than the old model. Need I go on?

I do not see how one could get upset about the comment I made, but yet again you continue to amaze me. It is a perfect example. More people are buying Lexus ESs than 3-Serie, at least in North America, and this trend has yet to waver. Since you insisted on keeping the discussion on Lexus, I would be worried if I were you, seeing as Lexus is planning on doing more and more sportier cars.

"I do not see how one could get upset about the comment I made, but yet again you continue to amaze me."

Where was I upset? Frustrated, yes, but upset? No.

"More people are buying Lexus ESs than 3-Serie, at least in North America..."

November 2007

BMW 3 Series 11,579 units
Lexus ES 5,902 units

LOL.

"Since you insisted on keeping the discussion on Lexus, I would be worried if I were you, seeing as Lexus is planning on doing more and more sportier cars."

Why should I be worried? That's just more exciting cars for me to test drive.

Well, it looks as if BMW is currently outselling Lexus. My apologies for lack of fact-checking. You win!

S4, the example you had is very poor and services no purpose whatsoever.

I agree that the best-selling BMW is the 3, but that's only because BMW 3 is cheaper compared to 5 or 7. The best selling Mercedes is C class, which is definitely less sporty than CLK/SLK.

Having said that, majority of 3 is leased as 328i(or maybe even 318i elsewhere) and lowly equipped. (noticed i said lease. there is no doubt that ES out 'sales' 3 since 65% of 3 that are 'sold' are actually leased --LA times) people getting 328i instead of 335 or M3 doesn't necessarily mean 328 is a more sporty car.

the best selling Infiniti is G only because G35 is cheaper than M35/45, not because it is more sporty.

the best selling Honda is Accord, which is definitely less sporty than S2000.


Believe or not, most people buying the brand when it comes to a 30K+ car. if you have to argue a 328 is more sporty than a similar priced s2000, or a EVO, or STI, then you need to get your eye checked.

ES is just a camry.... I don't see the point of ES.

Lexus got IS, GS, and LS to match 3/C/A4 5/E/A6 and 7/S/A8.

What's the point of ES? For those people who want a Lexus badge on camry?

"I agree that the best-selling BMW is the 3, but that's only because BMW 3 is cheaper compared to 5 or 7."

Well, yes, that's obvious. But if there was a luxury sedan like the ES in BMW's lineup, it probably wouldn't sell as well as the venerable 3er because of the reputation BMW has built on performance. Now, because BMW is the best-selling luxury brand on Earth, everyone wants to be the performance brand. Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, MercBenz, they're all after finding the "perfect balance." Because that is what seems to work best.

This is also proven by how the 3 Series finds almost twice as many buyers as the Lexus ES, even when they're at similar price points and the 3 Series is usually more expensive.

so S4, since Lexus just came out the IS, which is obviously more sporty than ES, does that mean Lexus is going to sell more IS than ES?

the problem is you are trying to convey the message that : cars sale because they are sporty, which is not always right. remember, BMW has only recently became the best selling luxury brand of earth. Cadillac holds that fame long before BMW. i don't think Cadillac is a sporty brand.

again, it goes back to what i said, for 30k+ cars, it is about brand. BMW sales more 328i, you cannot say 328i is sporty, it doesn't even have the power to be 'sporty.' but it still out sales EVO light years ahead. new Malibu may out handles Accord or Camry, but it won't sale nearly as much.

one last thing, since i was at auto market few day ago shopping for a new car, i don't think a BMW 3 series is more expensive than a Lexus ES. and 3 has attractive leasing price (as always)

"the problem is you are trying to convey the message that : cars sale because they are sporty, which is not always right. remember, BMW has only recently became the best selling luxury brand of earth. Cadillac holds that fame long before BMW. i don't think Cadillac is a sporty brand."

Uh, are you kidding? Cadillac hasn't been the best-selling luxury brand for about fifty years. It was Mercedes-Benz before it was BMW. That means the current trend is towards sportiness. In case you didn't know, BMWs are more performance oriented vehicles than Mercs.

As for your IS vs. ES comparison. Well, I think the biggest indicator is the brand as a whole. BMW is arguably the sportiest mainstream lux brand, and they are selling the best out of everyone else. They are also still growing rapidly. That just about makes my point.

"again, it goes back to what i said, for 30k+ cars, it is about brand. BMW sales more 328i, you cannot say 328i is sporty, it doesn't even have the power to be 'sporty.'"

Power doesn't = a sporty vehicle. The 328i is definitely a sporty sedan. It has telepathic steering, a perfect six-speed manual, an ideally damped suspension and everything you would want in a sports sedan... EXCEPT the power. For that you step up to the 335i. It's the best-selling car in its class, and the fact that it's also the sportiest is hard to argue with.

"new Malibu may out handles Accord or Camry, but it won't sale nearly as much."

Who said the new Malibu outhandles the Honda Accord? I haven't read that. It's competent, but not overtly sporty. The Nissan Altima, which is sportier, will sell better.

"one last thing, since i was at auto market few day ago shopping for a new car, i don't think a BMW 3 series is more expensive than a Lexus ES."

No matter how cheap the leases are, I can guarantee you that the average transaction price of a BMW 3 Series is as much as or more than that of a Lexus ES. The baby Bimmer can top $50K! The Lexus GS350 struggles to do that!

I can guarantee you that the majority of 3-Series models sold reach nowhere near $50K.

Audi R8... The perfect blend for me!

Sport:
- high-revving 4.2l 420hp V-8, 0-60 in mid 4s sec, top speed of 190mph, very competent handling (better handler than the Porsche 911), sport suspension, 4-wheel drive (mostly rear)

Luxurious:
- All leather interior, comfortable ride (non sport setting) provided by the magnetic ride suspension, loads of headroom and space, quiet interior

Design:
-Revolutionary, "Floating" taillights / headlights, 24 LEDs in the latter, contrasting aluminum / carbon fiber “side blades”, aluminum space frame, Audi’s award winning interior

2 slight drawbacks= price ($125,000 nicely loaded) and only a two seater (not a problem for me, could be for the average family man).

I love the R8...

In fact, being something of a "family fan," I just don't think I'd be able to do without a usable rear seat. That also crosses out the Porsche 997, although the Porsche is easier on the wallet, and thus frees me up to have a sedan or 2+2 coupe on the side.

I agree with Obie as regards the Audi A8. I think of it as a Bugatti Veyron for the real world! If I had to attend to my automotive needs only, and if I had the money, I'd go for the A8 in a heartbeat.

Unfortunately, I sometimes have more than one passenger with me, and I sometimes need to carry a lot of luggage. A reasonable compromise for me - i.e., a luxurious car that can haul ass and negotiate twisty country roads at high speed - my choice would either be the Audi S6/S8 or the Bentley Continental Flying Spur, maybe the Maserati Quattroporte as well.

I think you meant the R8...

But yes, I agree. "a luxurious car that can haul ass and negotiate twisty country roads at high speed" is exactly what I want.

"What's wrong with both...they don't even need to be 50/50. Everyone is different, and there are as many 'different' cars out there today to satisfy anyone who fancies either luxury or sport, or any combination thereof."

I absolutely agree.

I don't think this is a question that can really be answered. There are so many variables that go into what a person wants in a car.

For me, performance is the primary factor, but I think if you have to make a general assumption I would say luxury and functionality are the most important points.

I would be willing to bet that a news story here titled "Bananas, the world's best fruit?" could still turn into a Lexus vs. the Germans debate somehow.

You guys are funny!

Sad of course.

But still funny!

well yeah, the banana in the german car should have more nutrients and vitamins than the one in the lexus.......(imo).....;]

The majority of car buyers today want luxury. I am a performance buyer, which is only a small percent of buyers. Yes, if you offer more HP's at the same price as a car that has less HP's, that will be a factor for most people. But that like saying you can but a dozen eggs for the same price as buying ten. You have to understand that most people don't really know how to drive. That's why people drive super slow in the rain, brake hard in turns, and drive automatics. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that most people want the best deal, the most for there money, AFTER their creature comforts have been met. And to prove it, go up to 10 people today and ask them the performance specs on their car(it doesn't have to be a sports car), and then ask them "how NICE is their car?", and you'll have your answer.

Killbot

Luxury is subjective, BHP numbers are concrete. Depending on taste and personal appeal luxury can be drastic between individuals. A car can be luxurious for one person and the same car be plain Jane to another.

Horse Power is the same for everyone, 400 BHP is the same no matter what your taste. Competition typically leads to better products and currently more HP is better. One Auto maker sets the HP rating for a particular model which will affect that vehicles class or segment. We all constantly read in comparisons which vehicle in a class has the most HP. The funny thing is the most power car in a line is not usually the best selling. Auto Manuf use the title of most power car in segment for marketing. For example it is nice to market a car with "Most Powerful V8 in its class!!!". And 70% of that car sells with a less powerful engine.

As a footnote luxury can add plenty of weight, thus more HP is a neccessity. Ask Mercedez :) True for other luxury brands as well.

"As a footnote luxury can add plenty of weight, thus more HP is a neccessity. Ask Mercedez :) True for other luxury brands as well."

I agree, but I'm thinking (and hoping) that this trend is reversing itself. The new Audi A4, for example, weighs ~250lbs less than the current model, depending on the drivetrain. The new S4 will have a slightly less powerful engine than the current, but it will be a forced-induction V6, making the weight advantage even better, and dramatically improving handling, agility and acceleration. I can't wait for that car to come out, and I hope many other luxury brands follow their lead.

Whoops--forgot to add, it also dramatically improves FUEL EFFICIENCY. It will be a 335xi-type vehicle, doing everything right in a stylish package.

IMO, the car should handle and perform like a sports car but have a flexible enough suspension to ride comfortably on a regular day. As far as luxury, it should be very well equipped but look sporty inside and out without excessive sound deadening and DEFINATELY not a Buick/Lexus type suspension.

So in brief, the car should be luxurious as long as it does not interefere with the SPORTing attributes.

I own an Infiniti M35 which is both performance and luxury driven. I know when my lease is up in 1.5 years, I will look for both BUT it will have to get better gas mileage. I know that I'll have to take less performance but I want to keep luxury a part of my vehicle dynamic. The problem is, most luxury brands are behind the ball in offering a lot of choices with luxury and great gas mileage. I want to get close to 40 mpg but I don't want to drive a Prius or a damn Camry. UGH!!!