Automakers Step Back As Lexus No Longer Touts Hybrids As Gas Savers

Hybrid's never have or should be aimed at performance beacause it ruins the purpose of hybrid. hybrids are supposto be very economical. not powerful.

Lexus Hybrids could not have been "that economical" for two reasons:

1) The cars they're powering are HEAVY by default.

2) The cars are powered by OVERPOWERED engines by default.

Once a hybrid leaves the urban environment, it cannot get "good gas mileage" because the POWERFUL engine has to move the HEAVY car. It's that simple.

Plus, most Americans don't know how to drive properly, so they cannot get the best out of the car (and then they complain). Our driving schools should teach fuel-efficient driving, but they don't.

Kaiser-wannabe,

Lexus marketed their hybrids as fuel-efficient: they weren't. Their mileage was generally not very impressive. In fairness, I am willing to bet that the American consumers themselves are to blame. Like I said, our driving schools are terrible in teaching people how to drive properly, especially in a fuel-efficient manor.

A hybrid can be about high performance,it depends on the sice of gas engine you mate it with.The V8 hybrid with 438 total system HP is not about gas mileage,but still gets better than a V-12.

kaiser, that's not the problem. The problem is Lexus advertised this car as if it were:

a) a competitor to the V12's power/performance-wise, which it isn't, and
b) significantly more fuel efficient, which it also isn't.

You are basically paying $30k extra for all-wheel drive and the exclusivity of the "600h" badge, so that you can drive around with your nose in the air as if you were actually "greener" or "better" than the other vehicles in the class. It literally does nothing better though. Especially when you figure in that you're also paying $30k for half a trunk and performance/driving dynamics that are eclipsed by it's own $30k less expensive sibling, which is actually a good vehicle. All the promises Lexus made about this vehicle are actually better fulfilled by the diesel versions of the German competitors, or by Lexus's own LS460L.

The problem isn't with how the world views the LS600h, it's with how Lexus told us to view the LS600h. Now Lexus is backtracking and saying it's all about lower emissions. Hey, that's great, now that your performance claims are debunked and your fuel economy claims are debunked, let's focus on emissions. Now you can have a "greener" car for the bargain basement price of only 40% more than the regular version. You better REALLY love the environment to shell that out for that markup. Before you do though, did you know that the new clean diesels also produce fewer greenhouse gases than the ToyoLex hybrids, with better performance and fuel economy to boot, plus no loss of trunk space, and at a MUCH lower cost? Tough choice there.

exactly. in the mind of 99% of the population, hybrid=high MPG. any 'hybrid' that doesn't do that only hurts the hybrid name.

having an ULEV2 standard for the 600hL does, in fact, make it greener than any v12 the german brands produce

"having an ULEV2 standard for the 600hL does, in fact, make it greener than any v12 the german brands produce"

so what? it performs EXACTLY like an S550 or LS460. why compare a V8 car to a V12? oh right...because lexus marketing says so!

Oh what a tangled web ToyLex weaved, When first they practised to deceive!

I'm shocked and horrified :-O

increased performance
increased fuel economy
decreased emissions

is that so hard to understand?

Quibble all you want about details. The LS660h highway mileage isnt as high as it should be. The RX400h hp numbes arent impressive when compared to the superb 3.5L V6 in the RX350. But the overall formula represents a winning combination. The technology is only a few years old. The next gen will improve in all those areas. Meanwhile early adopters get the marginal improvements.along with the knowledge that with every purchase they are helping to move the technology forward.

Early adopters always accept a compromise. Usually it is price, but often it is purchasing something that while impressive, is just not there yet. But the rest of you benefit from our embracing of the future. The plasma flatscreen I bought 3 years ago was $2500 and for that we couldnt even get HD. How many of you bought HD plasmas for Xmas this year for the price of a couple car payments? Props to all the buyers of hybrids doing their small part. But I am sure that they (like me) all cant wait to trade them in when the next crop shows up. (Thats one thing u cant do with a TV.)

I think the real problem may be how they stack up against the new diesels in both mileage and green factor. Expect some interesting comparisons in the next year or so.

If the new clean diesels live up to their hype, then it will be interesting for the next couple years, til the next gen hybrids. The great thing about hybrid tech is that every step forward leads closer to electric and hydrogen. Where do these new diesels lead to? Whats next on the diesel horizon?

the same fuel economy.
slower acceleration.
same emissions rating.
$32,000 more for the hybrid badge.

is that so hard to understand 1970?

buy the LS460L.

ok, so how about the LS600h and Audi A8 4.2d? Not only are both AWD but the Audi is quicker AND gets much, much better fuel economy. And has an appropriately sized trunk for a car of its size. And it's a lot less money.

^ no no no, my friend, the comparison is valid, it's the LS600h that's invalid. When Lexus said "V12 performance, V8 fuel economy", we listened. And then it turned out that it provided V8 performance, V8 fuel economy, and Honda Civic trunk, for an extra $32k. Just because Lexus says "this is a V12 competitor" doesn't mean it is. It has to actually, you know, BE COMPETITIVE. Even Lexus themselves is now shifting focus away from the power and the fuel economy and onto emissions. Why? Because the power and fuel economy aren't as good as they initially tried leading the world to believe. If that LS600h had been a 4.8 second 0-60, 28mpg vehicle, they'd be shouting it into the heavens. But it's not. Regardless of sales figures it's a failure at what Lexus tried to pretend it could be.

lexusadmirer:

"The LS600h was meant to compete with the V12 versions of other luxury automakers, not their V8 versions. Your comparison is invalid."

why? because lexus says so? the LS600 can't even keep up with V8 competitors or it's own V8 sibling LS460. maybe because the LS600 IS A V8 and weighs 800lbs. more than the LS460.

it's amazing how you can argue against FACTS for the sake of your favorite brand.

lexus:

the V8 LS600 still barely match the V8 S550 in acceleration--both are in the mid 5sec range. the S600 in contrast, pulls LOW 4s. how is that comparable?

"Why don't you admit it that you were wrong? You want to continue looking and sounding stupid???"

i'm wrong? no.

check out lexus.com and scroll over the LS and LSh info on the top bar. note that the LS600 does 0-60 in 5.5 and the LS460 does it in 5.4 ACCORDING TO LEXUS.

maybe you should take up your arguement with lexus and explain to them that the LS460 is the V12 competitor!

LS600 does 0-60 in 5.5 and the LS460 does it in 5.4 ACCORDING TO LEXUS.

take it up with the toyota motor corporation.

"Is the S600 the ONLY V12 luxury sedan on the market??? Didn't think so ... What's the 0-60 times for the 760Li and the A8 L W12???"

The W12 achieves sub-5-sec 0-60mph times.

The 760Li hovers in the 5-5.5 sec range.

Are you serious? LOOK IT UP YOURSELF. It's pretty damn obvious that those cars can achieve those times!

Hybrids are cleaner than diesels based on the fact that to produce diesel fuel (versus gas and electric) is much more harmful to the environment.

Do a little reading before making a comment, Erichhartman.

"Petroleum diesel, or petrodiesel is produced from petroleum,and is a hydrocarbon mixture, obtained in the fractional distillation of crude oil between 200 °C and 350 °C at atmospheric pressure"
"Due to its higher level of pollutants, diesel must undergo additional filtration which contributes to a sometimes higher cost"
"diesel's 15% higher density results in 15% higher greenhouse gas emissions per litre compared to gasoline"

Between 1970 and 1974 scientists all around the world predicted we were heading into an ice age (Global Cooling) and it never happend. Global Warming is never gunna happen either chicken little.

"david 999" you forget to consider the valuable metals that are mined out of the ground in order to build all those hybrid engines.

david - diesel contains 30% more energy than gasoline than petrol.

And diesels emit lower CO2 than petrol engines.

Lexus_Admirer_, we can always count on Wikipedia for our information :-D

I think Hybrids shouldn't be compared to Diesels but non hybrid/normal Gas engines.
As in the topic 'They are listed as being cleaner than comparable non-hybrid rivals from other luxury automakers'

Every technology have it's pros and cons. What about diesels being slower, less clean, noisier, heavier, no performance models like M3, GT-R are diesel powered and few more.

Hybrids are still realtively new and theres a lot to improve. but still hybrids get better fuel eficiency, lower emissions and a combined more powerful engine compared to regular gas powered cars.

eg: GS350, GS450h.

There is no negative in it(apart from the added weight of the betteries). So it should be seen as and it is a positive and further ever growing/improving technology.

All in all present Lexus Hybrids are geared towards performance and better Emissions than strickly Fuel economy and hopefully Next generation will improve on all fronts especially fuel economy.

JUGNU

Diesels used to be slower, noisier, heavier etc, but some of the newer engines to come out have changed this. I don't know if they are in America yet, but I know they have them in Europe.

lol so many non believers.

its actually quite simple. lets start with the RX400h. there is basically no difference between that car and the gas equivilent. no space is lost what so ever. just maybe 2K more than the RX. 25 mpg on avg is much better than the 14 im getting in my RX330. plus you get cleaner emmissions. to me, this is worth the 2K extra, and that car was a momentous achievement.

Then the GS450h. 0-60 in 5.2 seconds? even with all that weight, and sure you get less trunk space. if you need trunk space, then dont buy it. the point is it gets mileage in the mid 20s and still can get to 60 quicker than most 4 door sedans. period.

LS600hl. This is where it gets iffy. the car basically allows you to tell people you drive a 438 horsepower car. that can somehow get 21mpg. just listing those figures is an achievement.

can we deduct any noticable pattern here? yes! that the hybrid powertrain doesnt produce any negatives to the environment emissions wise (that cannot be said about diesels) and allows the consumer to get better fuel economy (no matter how small a difference) and also get more power with it (on the expense of a little less trunk space in the sedans)

so to sum up:
more power
better fuel economy in any way you look at it
less emissions
tax credit in the past 2 years
less trunk space
= logical reason to buy a hybrid

hardy har har, what makes you say that eh?

lol. so many cult members!

LS600:

the same fuel economy.
slower acceleration.
same emissions rating.
$32,000 more for the hybrid badge.

buy the LS460L and buy a prius for your commute with the change.

"Love this car. You must wonder what the guy you just buried at the stoplight is thinking when he sees the lowercase "h" on the rear decklid. The car doesn't really breathe hard, it just accelerates-as if pulled forward by a silent, powerful winch. Not to mention it also handles better than it ought to. It's got really nice interstate-friendly ride comfort, but it'll whip through a cloverleaf interchange like a car half its size!" --Douglas Kott - Executive Editor

^^^long-term test in Feb. 2008 R&T

for the GS450h...

""We also beat the company’s 0-to-60-mph forecast of 5.5 seconds by a 10th and matched its quarter-mile claim of 13.8 seconds. All these results are significantly quicker than those recorded by the Lexus LS460L, which was 500 pounds trimmer when it was tested for our January 2007 issue.""

You keep quoting the SAME C/D article over and over, but do you want me to find a much less flattering quote on the LS600hL?

"Put the world’s most expensive gas - electric hybrid through its paces and you’ll awaken bad manners you wouldn’t expect from a conveyance with a six-figure price tag. Pull your foot off the go-pedal and the hL’s over-exuberant hybrid drive train continues to deliver accelerative boost for a few inopportune moments. Stomp on the brakes and you induce unrefined and poorly modulated retardation from the regenerative braking system.

While the hL is a sub-six second to sixty luxobarge, the hybrid's handling is hampered by the fact that it’s a heavy old thing. The all wheel-drive hL adds 717 pounds of hybrid heft to the rear wheel-drive equation; weighing-in at 5049 pounds in all. Throw in the marshmallow suspenders, add a bit of over-sharp steering response, and you’re left with a car that’s almost as corner-aversive as a Swiss skiing chalet. The optional $3k Active Power Stabilizer will quell some of the nautical motions, but there’s only one cure for the hybrid’s spastic throttle and braking response: buy another car."

The Truth About Cars

well, at least it's honest not to claim that lexus hybrids are better at fuel economy.

but what templeton says is trouubling...."It legitimizes what we have been doing." a superior product needs no legitimization. perhaps lexus needs to rethink its ENTIRE approach to hybrids.

Very interesting to see Lexus pedal backwards after the media exposed and the public learned the real truth behind their false hybrid technology claims.

enthusiast and others

so much for your no magazine ever got what lexus advirtised for the LS600h. See the link Lexus admirer posted a few posts above.

Makes u look stupid now. Now what will u say?

Hybrid is a positive technology u anti-Japanese and their technology..

JUGNU

don't put words in our mouths.

you found ONE independent tester able to match lexus' claims. how come SO MANY OTHERS failed? one example is LUCK. a dozen publications unable to make the LS600 perform is REALITY.

oh my, i'll try to educate you...

performance comparisons between cars are ONLY VALID if they are conducted at the same time, at the same altitude, by the same drivers and at the same atmospheric conditions. all of these variables can change the results.

so here you go. a VALID comparison of the LS600h, the S550, the XJ and the quattroporte. notice that the LS600 MATCHES the S550 EXACTLY and is SLOWER than the other two V8 powered cars.

care to explain?

you're hopeless.

find a comparisons of these cars.

as stated, performance comparisons between cars are ONLY VALID if they are conducted at the same time, at the same altitude, by the same drivers and at the same atmospheric conditions. all of these variables can change the results.

lexus hybrids = performance

rubbish

i drove both rx400 and ls600 and they both said the hybrid system was overheating

Happy New Year!

Why Lexus would even say that these models are gas-savers is ridiculous. First of all it would take the average person 6 or more years to recoup the extra money they paid for the cost of buying a hybrid as a gas trade-off. The performance of the vehicles aren't really even that better, just by 1 or 2 tenths of a second, give or take. Its smart of Lexus to advertise as an enviornmental saver b/c gas saver is not what Lexus hybrids are. Um, I wonder why the sudden change of heart? Maybe it's b/c the LS600hL didn't live up to all the hype. Waste of $104k!

I personally think that if Lexus named the LS600h LS500h all the arguing here wouldnt be necessary. The 600 badge makes you think its a v12 competitor, when in real life its just a greener LS460.

"its just a greener LS460."

oh but it's NOT. vastly heavier (more raw materials), hybrid battery (more mineral mining), same fuel economy as LS460L and same emissions rating as LS460L.

there is precisely NOTHING green about any car that weighs 5000+ pounds and makes 438hp. in fact, there is NO SUCH THING as a 'green' car that uses petroleum. just less evil cars.

THERE IS AN EPISODE OF "BULLSHIT" WITH PENN AND TELLER EXPOSING THE CLAIM OF HYBRIDS AS GAS SAVERS. POINTS SUCH AS INCREASED WEIGHT AND COST. PLUS MOST PRIUS DRIVERS ON LOS ANGELES FREEWAYS DOING 85MPH. BELIEVE EPA TESTING AT 65MPH.

the LS600 also made the new york times list of failed cars. and remember that the nyt is bleeding heart liberal publication IN LOVE with the toyota prius.

2. LEXUS LS 600H L What do you call a high-performance hybrid that costs $30,000 more than the gas-only version, but weighs vastly more, gets 1 m.p.g. less and is slower from 0 to 60 m.p.h.? More to the point, what do you call the person who spends $30,000 more for the heavier, thirstier, slower $121,000 hybrid? How about “sucker”?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/automobiles/30ULRICH.html?ref=automobiles

"First of all the LS600h was made to compete with the German V12 sedans and it does this quite well."

help me out here...according to LEXUS, the LS600 can't keep up with the LS460. by your logic, lexus should also be MARKETING the LS460 as an alternative to V12 sedans. correct? i guess if lexus says the LS460 is an alternative V12 it MUST BE TRUE!

just check out the FACTS on lexus.com. 5.5 to 60 for the LS600. 5.4 for the LS460.

lexus admirer:

don't you think LEXUS is a better source of info about their cars than motor trend? all that admiration and you still can't trust LEXUS when they tell you the LS460 is faster than the LS600?

is LEXUS biased against LEXUS?

"enthusiastx11, has it occurred to you that Lexus may be conservative with their 0-60 times"

this is irrelevant. LEXUS SAYS that the LS600 is relatively slower than the LS460. what you're saying is that lexus is inconsistent in their claims about cars. so they're more conservative with some models and less conservative with others.

lexusadmirer:

and why is it so difficult for you to understand that you can't COMPARE numbers for different cars from different sources? again, tests must be done at the same time/driver/altitude/atmospheric conditions. so go ahead and find comparisons to prove your point.

for now, i'll just trust that lexus keeps all these variables consistent in the ratings of their cars.

and why do you resort to namecalling? are you unable to make an intelligent, coherent point backed up by data?

"It might not be as fast as them, but it sure as hell gets much better fuel economy and releases less emissions."

BUT THERE IT GOES AGAIN!!!

It's a vicious circle! When you're talking about emissions and economy, I can just bring you back to the diesels, which were MADE for that stuff! They wipe the floor with the LSh in terms of mileage, keep up with it in a straight line, leave it in the dust when the road gets twisty and cost thousands less! It's hard to argue with that!

It is funny to watch most here claim the Lexus hybrids are just excuses for people to "ride around with their nose in the air." Peculiar, for this happens to be the very same ATTITUDE many of them have because they have their European (or shall we say "non-Toyota/Lexus") car. No, they would rather show their insecurities and immaturities by stating everything negative they can think of about them on this site daily.

The LS600H may be an illogical purchase to you A) because it's a Lexus and B) because it's "not really green?" Who cares? I will tell you, NONE of the people buying and driving it and regularly observing fuel economies as high as the mid 20s, which I need not remind anyone is AT WORST, ON PAR with the S550, 750, and A8, which by default means that it's mpg is BETTER than the S600, 760 and W12.

Lexus is all about maintaining a perfect media image, so of course they would make a move like this to keep up appearances, despite the clearly-biased auto media, whose refusal to even put the car in the realm of V12 competition, who would instead pit it against lowly European diesel models, whose entertainment value-only Top Gear hosts would acclaim the Tiburon as "better" than the SC, whose ever-so nifty C&D editors would pit an RX against a Veracruz, whose stuck-up Auto Bild editors would pit the regular LS against a VW Phaeton, whose... need I go on?

No, Lexus does NOT do everything right, but with the kind of negative media coverage they receive, you would think they were Oldsmobile or something. Well, they are not. They are one of the most successful luxury brands on the market currently.

In Germany, the VW Phaeton is the perfect competition for the LS.

So Autobild were perfectly correct in their comparison.
The cars cost around the same and both have the wrong badge so why not compare them??

the phaeton does have the "wrong badge" and hence, regardless of its mechanical virtues, is a MARKETING FAILURE.

NO lexus has a "wrong badge." for all the negative comments people may make about the toyota-lexus connection, TOYOTA is highly respected brand IN ITS OWN RIGHT. while some may look down their noses at toyotas for the econobox history, ALL toyotas regardless of price have been solid and reliable, quite decent cars. (the same USED to be true of vw too, no longer.)


the Lexus line simply CONTINUES this heritage, while trying (unlike the failed Phaeton) to distance itself from the ECONOMY connotations of what are ALSO excellent toyota vehicles.

two cars being 'mislabeled' with 'wrong badges' (even if one isn't) IS NOT a sufficient reason for being compared against each other.

absolutely NO LOGIC in such a suggestion.

Lexus has the wrong badge for Europe. It's not really viewed as a proper premium car, more like a Volvo competitor.
Certainly the RX's main competition is the Touareg/XC90.

"No, they would rather show their insecurities and immaturities by stating everything negative they can think of about them on this site daily."

Please!

I will argue and argue and argue, but you (as in all the Lexus fanboys) turn a deaf ear! You don't notice the logic in any of the comments, and only gauge them as "Oh, here's another German fanboy bashing MY car so I have to defend it." Well, if you actually READ OUR ARGUMENTS, you would notice that we're not just spouting off. The LS600hL truly DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, to the core. It doesn't do ANYTHING right. I would never buy one.

You could say it's fast, but the twelves and eights are as fast or faster. You could say it's efficient, but the diesels get twice its mileage and the normal eights once again match or better it. You could say it's luxurious, but it offers very little in the way of exclusive touches compared to the LS460L. You could say it gets good emissions, but the Bluetec diesels are fast approaching.

SO what is it this time? What's your argument?

Picture this:

I've already made up my mind: I like the LS600hL. I have the $100K+ to buy it, which is all the excuse I need to buy it.

I buy the car, and then learn that it's a hybrid. I was possibly considering to spend my $100K+ on an S600, or maybe even a 760, but that was before I saw the LS. So, now I have a car that I like better than the other two, and it also happens to get better fuel economy and emissions than those other two as well. It was the best car for my money, and it also happened to be the most environmentally friendly among the three cars I was cross-shopping.

That was all hypothetical for the poor ignorants who just cannot seem to wrap their heads around the idea of someone liking and buying an expensive Lexus over an expensive German car.

"everybody knows hybrids pollute less (some just don't want to admit it)."

really huu? check your facts. the diesels emit less and get as much as 50% better fuel economy.



Audi A8 4.2 TDI : 9.5 L/100km – 252 g/km CO2

BMW 745D: 9.7 L/100km - 256 g / km CO2

Lexus LS600 hybrid: 12.1 L/100km – 285 g/km CO2

Mercedes S420 CDI: 9.7 L/100km l - 255 g / km CO2


http://www.autobild.de/artikel/hybrid-lexus-gegen-die-konkurrenz_435966.html

mirror, mirror.

one factor all in the anti-hybrid camp try to STUDIOUSLY IGNORE, is the fact that ALL hybrids, econo- or performance oriented, get SUPERIOR URBAN mileage. as much as 25% better than competitors.

just about all cars today are optimized for highway mileage with tall final drive ratios. so it is difficult for HEAVY hybrids to improve much there.

but in URBAN driving, with inherently lower efficiency due to the constant stop and go, hybrids REALLY SHINE.

how time does the avg driver spend in urban/suburban driving? how much time does the average driver of luxury cars spend in 0 - 60 contests? WTF cares about a piddly 0.1 or .2 second difference?

INTELLINGENT buyers of cars in this class are FULLY AWARE of these facts. (unlike the fanbois bench racers on this forum!)

which is why, despite all the naysaying, lexus WILL SELL every single ls600hl they can crank out.

how much time does the avg. driver...

@Lexus_Admirer_

Did you see "The Great Global Warming Swindle" ? If you didn't I sugest you should see it.
If you did see it and still aren't convinced, then I am sorry to say but you are on a different planet, not Earth. No offence.

The great global warming swindle is ridiculous, it is the real swindle.

Channel 4 (the broadcaster of it in Britain) had to issue many, many apologies for its misuse of information and selective editing. Lying, essentially.

I make plenty of sensible comments!!!

So tell me, what happens when you add an Audi A8 4.2 tdi, or a BMW 745d in the mix?

"The LS600hL destroys V12s"

Uh-huh, yeah, you're absolutely right...

"I get chills just thinking about the improvements that Synergy Drive III will bring."

I'm sure you have a very exciting life, then.