Formula One To Impose Budget Cap Starting In 2009

Midengine, Toyota's trick isn't long overtime, but it's putting their workers to work on multiple stations at once versus others' way of specializing one worker per machine.

This maximizes the workers' time and efficiency, but it's also the reason Toyota factory workers have shown higher rates of suicide since they're constantly on guard, instead of, say, a line worker at Ford taking breaks in between each gidget they stamp out.

While there's minimal overtime, long overtime doesn't work because they have entire teams rotating different shifts for the whole day. Precision and planning is the key with them.

Sorry to say, but that article merely shows how Ms. Uchino feels about why Toyota is more efficient. Also, if overtime is the norm in Japan, others would have the same problem, yet Toyota is still the most efficient.

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Automobile-Industry-Technology-Management/dp/067447256X

If you read this book, it'll tell you their system and you'll see why they're more efficient, how they were able to use their system while others like Nissan and Honda couldn't, and also why suicide rates for Toyota factory workers are higher than all others.

The article is an interesting one and death from overwork is a tragedy, but it's not the explanation to why Toyota is so efficient. Ms. Uchino isn't the only wife to have a husband working long hours and Toyota isn't the only company to have employees working long overtime.

"The ruling is important because it may increase the pressure on companies to treat “free overtime” (work that an employee is obliged to perform but not paid for) as paid work."

It says "companies," not "Toyota." That means Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Daihatsu, etc. Again, Toyota is not the only one doing overtime. Overtime is a cultural norm in Japan. Overtime is not what defines Toyota's efficiency. Again, please read that book and see how their production system is different from the others. Cusumano has several books in this area and is very reputable.

While the new car is promising, they have a ways to go.

Lexus, so how many years of experience do you think Toyota started with by stealing Ferrari's designs?

Here ya go, buddy: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/30/ferrari_espionage_conviction/

Don't try to save face by trying to twist the subject or words around in what is obviously a weak attempt at convoluted legal logic. And justifying that everyone does it doesn't make it something other than stealing. I bet that's what you'd say in a court room when you get a speeding ticket, huh?

Regardless of what happened in between Toyota and Ferrari, Toyota got to it and used the information. It didn't belong to them, they didn't purchase it nor did they get permission to use it. THEY STOLE. Understand?

But simply put, you asked for proof of stolen information. I provided it to you and you get your panties in a bunch. Just man up to your mistake or ignorance (you choose).

Also by using that comment from the blog, you merely contradicted your statement of Toyota starting from scratch. Btw, how about making yourself useful and proving that F1 information is commonly "shared?" Many of us know it's common knowledge, but can you prove it? Jackie Stewart said this before, but even then, it's still hearsay. I'm sure you know the difference...

Because you attempt to cover up your stupidity with legal technicalities, let me make things easier for you by answering all three questions with a link to the definition of the word "steal": http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/steal Oh, also, while you're at it, go ahead and look up straw man fallacy, which is what you're clearly attempting to pull off, whether you know it or not. You were called out and you merely devised irrelevant questions to knock down so you don't look like a complete fool, which is understandable.

That said, now you don't really think Toyota "accidentally" used loads of engineering documents, which were mostly likely presented in their completed manner, without knowing where it came from, do you? So we're clear, this is a question of what YOU believe.

And if you want to try to pull this technicality crap, then I ask you again, knowing that Jackie Stewart's statement is HEARSAY and not hard proof, PROVE that this is going on. If you can't even send a few half ass links from Google, don't even bother continuing this discussion.

Btw, your name-calling goes miles to show your insecurity and lack of ability to make decent arguments.

Is that the best you can come up with to try and set up that weak argument of yours? If you think those questions are legitimate, you must be on crack.

I guess you haven't looked up the straw man fallacy yet, nor that definition of "steal" that you merely had to copy and paste onto your browser. And I guess I was expecting too much out of your intelligence for you to see that I answered your questions with an answer that those illegitimate questions deserved.

You can say what you want and have your last word after this. You've been proven wrong, you haven't proven ANYTHING I asked, and your pathetic attempt at a straw man fallacy was your only way to try and keep yourself from looking like a moron, but since you couldn't even pull that off, you ended up looking like more of a moron.

This little argument has run it's course, my friend. Go ahead and have your last word, it still won't change that you're just plain wrong.

Let's try dumbing it down for you once more... Toyota hires engineers Angelo Santini and Mauro Iacconi. They are now part of Team Toyota. It is not Team Santini or Iacconi, they are not the only ones building the car, and the car is not named Santini/Iacconi TF102, it's TOYOTA TF102. Also, being the TOYOTA engineers hired to build the F1 racer, are they not representatives of Toyota? Are they not a part of Toyota? Buiding the TF102, were they not Toyota members in possession of stolen Ferrari data building the TF102 in Toyota's name?

And hence we have the use of "Toyota" here: http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/14217/

The car that is made by Team Toyota, not just the two engineers, used information that belonged to Ferrari. Toyota hires engineers in possession of stolen Ferrari data. Toyota is now in possession of stolen Ferrari data. Toyota USES stolen Ferrari data to develop their first F1 car. Toyota, NOT the engineers, appeals to block return of information as their own data is now embedded along with Ferrari's data.

The problem with your question? You erroneously attempted to make an argument to try and knock down by referring to Toyota as if the entity itself can steal. To dumb it down to your level, ask yourself, can Toyota steal a cookie from a child? "Deliberately hired to steal" is a moot point and has no significance due to the fact that the information, THAT BELONGED TO FERRARI, WAS IN POSSESSION AND USED BY TOYOTA, WITHOUT FERRARI'S CONSENT. Oh, and why did this come up in the first place? Gee, if you follow F1 at all, didn't just about everyone notice that Toyota and Ferrari had suspiciously similar looking cars? Same deal for your last question. What does it matter that they did or didn't deliberately hire people to steal? They were in possession of the data, Italian software to be exact, and they, TOYOTA AS A WHOLE, USED THE INFO to develop their racer.

TOYOTA STOLE.

Toyota hater/basher? Because you know me so well right? Well geez, I wonder why I studied their production system and why I drive a Toyota? Moron... Toyota's done tons of great stuff, but wrong is wrong. And you trying to justify their wrong doing just shows how much of a blind fanboy you are. If you're going to resort to name-calling, use general ones to appear less dumb. At your level, you need every little bit of help you can get. Oh, and if you were a real fan and wanted to show Toyota's prowess, you would have noted that they had one of the strongest and most reliable motors in F1. Of course, I don't expect you to know that, though.

Doesn't matter if they're still working. Their car was developed with Ferrari data. They STOLE. What's going on now is completely irrelavent. Why don't you stay on topic? Can't admit they stole? They wouldn't be the first to have done so. Sorry if your favorite team was caught cheating this time. Oh wait... They got caught cheating at the WRC too didn't they?

You haven't shown ANY PROOF of ANYTHING. Show me where it says they were cleared of wrong doing. Last I checked, it was "Toyota" involved in the court case to prevent data from being returned. You can question the documents all you want, but they are facts THAT ALREADY OCCURED. If you have docs showing they were cleared, it'd be great to see them, seriously, as I want to keep up to date. But as far as I know, you can't change history, and the fact remains that TOYOTA STOLE. It's funny... You can't disprove anything so now you accuse the links of being dated. Too bad they already occured huh?

Your little statement about learning to read, I did. It's you who haven't. Well, you're just probably selectively reading since I'm sure your ego can't handle that I actually addressed all three of your questions.

Has it occured to you Toyota got off with a slap on the wrist because there was no point in penalizing a back marker? By contrast, McLaren was competitive when they got the shaft and even your beloved Toyota in WRC when they were competitive.

"Let me ask you something, say you take home pens, pencils and paper clips from work which is theft by the way" This is a dumb analogy as Toyota didn't steal from themselves, however, if you (Toyota employee) went to Ferrari's paddock and stole Ferrari pens without the Toyota boss knowing, then yes, Toyota stole. If you (Prodrive employee designing chassis work for Ferrari) went to the Ferrari paddock and stole pens, then no, Toyota did not steal. Get it?

You have quite the bloated ego. Because you can't take that they stole and/or that you're wrong, you're now trying to justify it by asking if anyone else got punished? And you keep bring up "deliberately." If they went about their business one day and accidentally stumbled upon Ferrari data in the bathroom and they took it, it wasn't premeditated but it's still stealing so take that "deliberate" crap out of here.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Toyota stole. Go ahead and explain all you want in any way. That part of history can't be changed. Oh, and by the way, here's another link for you to have fun with, since it seems to boil your blood: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=23040

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=23010

Wow, same questions after repeatedly explaining to you why they're irrelavent... I won't retype the answers, you can just read the same post above. You repeating those questions aren't going to give them any kind of legitimacy so you can keep posting them all you want.

Nice link btw. Too bad it doesn't clear Toyota of any wrong doing as you hoped it would.

"Ferrari employees accused of industrial espionage have been found guilty of spying. Putting to rest the controversy involving Toyota since 2003[this only states the case has been concluded, not that Toyota has hasn't done any wrong doing], the two have been given suspended jail terms [here's another example: Enron screws up, Ken Lay, had he lived, gets the shaft; still an Enron problem. It's good they pinpointed the problem, but make no mistake IT WAS TOYOTA.]."
"Two former Ferrari employees have been sentenced to suspended jail terms after being found guilty of industrial espionage. Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini were found to have spied on the Scuderia while working for Toyota - who sacked them before the case was
made public." <-- Notice "WHILE WORKING FOR TOYOTA"? These engineers ARE Toyota here. Were they subcontractors? No. Do They have their own engineering company? No. They are Toyota employees. Oh, AND they had already used that information AND they had already competed for a significant time with the car built with stolen data. Do you seriously not get that? Why are you so butthurt over Toyota stealing the info?

So what you're saying is that Toyota, during all stages of development, with Ferrari docs, Italian software, and Ferrari logos on the stolen docs, had NO idea they were using Ferrari data (which, btw, deliberate or not, IS STILL STEALING)? I don't know why you're unable to comprehend that deliberate or not, they used info that did not belong to them, WHICH MAKES THAT STEALING, but thank you for proving how biased you are. You can turn a blind eye, but the facts are there. Toyota stole. Oh, and that last link you posted was quite the pathetic attempt at trying to prove your erroneous statement of Toyota being cleared of all charges. I'm not a lawyer because I don't want to be. You on the other hand sound like a failed attempt at one and by your inability to grasp simple details (like the fact that stealing is stealing whether it is deliberate or if they stumbled on info that didn't belong to them and used it as their own anyway) I can see why you'd be a failure.

Yep, you just don't get it alright. Can't argue anymore so you start attacking the person you argue with and make circular statements you've been making this whole entire time. Of course, you couldn't prove anything, especially that one with Toyota being cleared. Now you just have to let it sink into your head that Toyota stole and try not to feel so bad about it.

A budget cap? With Toyota's only competitive advantage (money to burn) stripped away, there's no way they can win now.

The reason why people are now driving $20,000 cars with paddle shifters is because the F1 teams spend so much money designing these things. This seems like a step back for technology.

Agree with you completely: F1 ideally should be a laboratory for the most advanced automotive technologies which can be applied to the road: there should be as few restrictions as possible on how far the envelope should be pushed. This limitation will mean makers will need to spend more on pure R&D...and the public will not get to see these technologies developed on the racetrack.

Rosko,

How are you are you talking about?!?

A supra out of the factory for $70k??? And with a 1200HP??? Wow...now THAT is a new one to the list of most non credible things said.

EDIT: *How* --> *What*...

About TIME!!!

Toyota spending the most and others ar not even close is a myth. Yes Toyota spends the most but others like Ferrari and Mclaren are not far behind. Go figure.

btw i remember TF108, driven by Timo Glock recorded best time in one of the rcent testing days.

see the difference. that crap Ralf is out. and i was right. He didn't even got a seat for 2008 even in a Spyker-Force India now. Toyota was paying him like anything.

and see Timo Glock. toping the time sheets.

I am sure with Timo and certainly Toyota learned from their last year mistakes, Toyota will do better this year.A lot better.

Haters like fastonekiller will look stupid then.

JUGNU

that goes to show how much you know about F1. going to the top of the recent time charts mean nothing. its all practice...

We'll have to wait the 50ish days for the 1st race to see how they do.

I'd like to see them enforce this ridiculous rule. This will be loophole city...

theiryhenry

Topping the timesheets is not a small thing. If i remember correctly both the reigning Champion Kimi and former double champion Fernando topped the sheets on the other two days. Third day was when Timo in a Toyota topped them.

Can u imagine that crap Ralf doing this (even put him in a Ferrari and others in Williams and he still won't top the the sheets). That's what i was talking about.
This is surely a positive begining. And all the cars are new so topping Timesheets does makes sense and surely mean something.

JUGNU

With the dumbing down of Formula 1, why doesn't the FIA just eliminate internal combustion engines and have a 16 race box car derby competition. That's the direction we're heading.

Bigger budget, but no results worth mentioning. The key regardless of budget and size is success and the ability to maintain a committment to the sport and repeat year and year out being successful. Oh yeah, Audi does that each year in and out as does Porsche, Corvette, and others.

Here's something to think about...

So, some of you say that Toyota has the biggest budget currently. Now, THAT still doesn't compare to the cost in research and developement that other companies have spent in the last 30+ years of being in the race. And with that high cost comes gradual innovation over DECADES. Toyota has been in this business for what less than a decade? So now, who has spent the most in overall R&D? In this scenario, you can't just compare a one time cost for not even a decade in R&D of one company to others, who have spent 10x more in the last few decades developing their R&D. Chew on that for awhile...

No, that's not what I'm saying. I don't see any production car with a V8 revving at 15,000RPM. I don't see any suspension set-ups on a production car as that of F1 cars. Aerodynamics, etc, etc, etc.

Don't start another argument by going into production cars. I'm talking about F1, solely.