Mercedes S400 well on its way to take on Lexus LS hybrid

Not it's a V6 petrol from the S350, which we get in Europe.

of it was a desiel, i would expect more than 27MPG

"That puts the S400 hybrid well ahead of the Lexus LS hybrid which gives an estimated fuel-economy of 20mpg in the city and 22 on the highway."

We have a new winner.
Bye bye LS 600h.

you gonna be kidding me.
a 05 accord hybrid get higher mpg than this stuff, and faster from 0-60.
i mean, if it takes 7.3 sec to go from 0 to 60, they might as well just buy a camry hybrid (which takes 1 more sec from 0 to 60, but get way more mpg).

and let's not forget the fact that it will be released in 2010. i am not a lexus fan (as i don't buy lexus), but i am pretty damn sure lexus will have a way better product than this POS in year 2010.

rosco, i'm glad you finally removed your head from your rear end and are now making FAR MORE rational statements, 'stead of your idiotic hate diatribes.

you well deserve your POSITIVE 2-digit boost (for a change!) on your earlier post.

as for mileage, it's generally known that 95+% of car testers are leadfoots. i wonder if ANY reviewer actually tried to be a featherfoot and actually maximize mileage.

it was NOT hard to BETTER epa estimates with the old standards, and is even easier with the current standards. i do this ALL the time.

(admittedly, i do have decades of experience at squeezing mileage out of ALL vehicles i drive. and, to not lose my enthusiast credentials, i STILL occasionally push redlines now and then. but mostly i practice enthusiasm by CORNERING at near max velocities. which, interestingly, can also HELP mpgs!)

Much nicer than the Lexus.

It's true one way of looking that it does get better MPG compared to the LS600h. But this is mated to a V6? For a flagship model, I am surprise they could not figure a better way in terms of running a V8 Hybrid. Which in turn they could not obviously engineer in time and are probably still struggling. And if we are talking a hybrid with a V6 and lithium-ion battery...and only getting avg 27 mpg?!?!?(if this is based on Bluetec diesel mated to this hybrid, then that's some really crappy numbers) C'mon how can this be break through advances claimed by MB? I thought MB are leaders of inovations? V6 hybrid has been done before(Toyota Highlander, GS450h, RX400h, etc...) If the LS had V6 hybrid today with petrol and still running a nickel battery, you would probably get the same avg of 27 mpg, if not much better with very respectable hoarse power & torque. This is just marketing bull-crap, just to say "MB has a hybrid too in an S-Class!" To have a V6 in a S-Class, you are better off spending the money on a Acura RL...but then again you German fanboys see differently when it comes to "MB badging"...C'mon German fanboys...I know you guys are scratching your heads as to why mate a hybrid to a V6 in a "Flagship." No excuse here, just plain facts that you will have a hard time to admit too. But it's okay. So at the end of the day Lexus remains in a class of its' own base on V8 innovations that MB and no other brands still has not achieved, weather you like it or not. Btw the 2nd gen LS600h(which will be less than year later of the debut of the S400) will probably get much higher MPG than the S400, would not be surprised if it reaches the 35 mpg mark...and if that happens back to the drawing board for MB...LMAO!!!...Either way all the best to both Lexus & MB in this level of innovations to come!!!
p.s. Rosko and EL34 came from the same Uncle Daddy, so your useless comments don't count like always!!!...Buuuu-Wah-ah-ah-aaaaahhhhh!!!!...LMAO!!!

Your dates seem to be wrong...how could Lexus have another LS600h in 2010 when they only launched the current one last year? It's not due for replacement until at least 2013...and 35 mpg is highly, highly unlikely for a 5.0 V8 no matter how many electric motors you throw at it.
Mercedes has had a 6 cylinder S class ever since the first 'Fintail' in the 50s...how is it lowly?
As far as innovation goes, Mercedes will be first with Lithium Ion batteries, which Toyota does use because they are "unpredictable" (Read expensive).

Rosko2, you didn't get the point.
when LS600H was released, every auto press were criticizing the LS600H is not as fast as its German counter part-- by 0.2 second.
so now you have a German hybrid, not just any hybrid, GERMAN, and S CLASS, clock 7.3 second. I think feel it's ironic.

btw. Rosko2, don't assume things you don't know and start attacking people randomly. my daily ride is a 5 second car, yet I value handling, quietness and mid-speed acceleration more than 0-60 acceleration.

This makes as much sense as putting a 4cyl. diesel hybrid in the S Class. As stated before in the diesel hybrid post, the technology Mercedes is coming out with would serve a much better purpose in it's smaller sedans.

Anyone who can afford an S Class, isn't going to waste their time on a hybrid version.

The specs on the Lexus GS450H sound more enticing than the ones on this car.

You are forgetting the market for the S class outside America, where things are different. S classes are very popular with limo companies and executive taxi services, who prize fuel efficiency and low emissions (to reduce car taxes) - we already get the S280, S350 and S320cdi, so this S400 fills a nice gap between the 350 and 550.
Won't waste their time on a hybrid version? Could that not be argued for the LS600h?

The LSh will be better than this. Even if you're not a Lexus fan, you can't deny that no one builds hybrids like Toyota.

Wow hybrids are amazing, only when they are in German cars of course......

And don't assume that just because Autocar, a real reputable source there, believes that the hybrid Benz is set for a 2009 launch with Lithium Ion batteries that it is so. That is pure conjecture at this point. But I should not forget that people on this site have a hard time differentiating among opinions, facts and speculations.

And I must echo some of the other posters here, getting 27mpg out of your flagship sounds good, but what will the power be like? Consumers are not going to want to spend $70-80K on a car that goes 0-60 in 7 or 8 seconds. The mid-sized application for this engine would make more sense, and it does actually, it's called a GS450h. But that's not German, so it sucks, I know.

Finally, I'm no expert like Autocar, but I SPECULATE that Lexus need not wait for a total redesign of its cars to put in the next gen HSD, which is due in the next year to year and a half. So by the time this S400 begins stacking up on dealers' lots, we're likely to find new hybrids for the RX, GS and LS setting new standards of mpg and performance exellence. Props to early adopters, but it will be the application of HSD4 to these cars where the hybrid benefits will truly shine.

The S320 CDI, A8 3.0 TDI and 730d are all the best selling in their range.
All do 0-60 in about 7.5 seconds, so obviously there are allot of people who are willing to spent that kind of money on such cars.

"Consumers are not going to want to spend $70-80K on a car that goes 0-60 in 7 or 8 seconds"

Just because you possess the typical american mentality that driving 8L V8 pickups is the norm does not mean the other 5 billion people in the world think like you. When will you people understand that?
It's not always about the size of the engine and the 0-60 times. You as a Toyota/Lexus fan should know that better than anyone else.

...those who are saying 70-80K for this car...im thinking it will be much much more.

first our S class starts at 89K. add a v6 engine instead, and thats maybe 80K. Add the time and money spent on making lithium hybrid batteries and the research and development...were looking at 95K area.


btw, i agree with above, that lexus does not have to wait until a full redesign to put lithium batteries in their cars. they have the cars, they just need to replace the heavy box in the back. simple as that.

i also dont think toyota will let MB beat them on this one. they are the pioneers of hybrid technology and wont give that title away that easily

It really wasn't that long ago that ALL of the German car fans here were absolutely ridiculing Lexus for going the Hybrid route, and that the Germans would never sell out like that- that "Europeans" have different, perhaps more refined tastes and would laugh at Lexus and their hybrids. Now Porsche and MBZ are on the verge of trying to exploit this market that we have done so well with. If ya can't beat em, join em I guess.

Beat them? They never competed. NOW Lexus Hybrids will be beatten to the ground in a market they themselves created.

"It really wasn't that long ago that ALL of the German car fans here were absolutely ridiculing Lexus for going the Hybrid route"
Completely true. And W209 boy let's just wait and see. This is not about beating the other guy it's about moving forward and the fact that most euro fanboys we're too stubborn to see.

GoObama08, why don't you pick on hard target like the radical muslims?

Christians don't give a damn if you believe in Christ or not, but I know Barack Obama does ;-)

GoObama08, Crusaders and conquistadors?

What do you think the radical Muslims were doing 500 years ago?

Remember the Branch Davidians in Waco, Tx and how Janet Reno and Wesley Clark handled that situation?...how did the innocent children end up?

If you want to get rid of illegal aliens just get Janet Reno, remember Elian Gonzalez and the machine gun in his face to send him home?

What party was it that allowed Japan to blast out Navy and Army Air Corp in Pear Harbor?

What political party was it that liberated North Africa, France and Italy during WWII when no one had invaded the USA?

What party dropped the atomic bombs?

What party tried to liberate Korea and Vietnam?

What President allowed the Iranian Hostage situation?

Which President nicknamed "the first black president" did nothing when hundreds of thousands were butcherd in Rwanda?

Lexus clown here- they don't stuff a V8 into a car and call it green, they take an already V8 powered car, give it much more luxury and road feel, and comparable performance to our competitors V12s', and the relative fuel economy of a powerful V6, and really low emissions. I drive a 600HL with executive seating and believe me, there is NO car like it.

Well, I'll be at the Punch Line in San Francisco in it in 2 hours- If you'd care to meet up and have a ride.

GoObama - lies.
Lexus is growing at 7% per year in Europe - fastest growing yes, but BMW is also growing fast, at around 6% I believe, and Audi at something like 4. That 60% figure is not right.
http://www.samar.pl/__/__la/en/__ac/sec,4/new/15188/__Toyota-achieves-11th-consecutive-record-year-of-sales-in-Europe.html

"From January to December 2007, TME sold 1,184,828 Toyota vehicles (+10% on 2006) and 53,810 Lexus vehicles (+7%) to achieve an overall market share of 5.6%."

I can tell that you're for Obama with that statement.

Wow, that was low. I'm a Republican and it's not that I don't care about the environment, it's just that I'm sick of the world looking at the U.S. to solve it for them. It's a global issue. China pollutes tons more than the U.S. We can't save the world, especially since we're contributing to pollution less than other countries. That's why I think that Democrats are a little blind to the issue.

P.S. Republicans do have Jesus values. Look up Exodus 15:3. That's a major Jesus value right there that Republicans have and Democrats don't.

But Democrats are going to make a DIFFERENCE.

Unlike the lazy "We're not the world's problem" attitude, they will do something about this. Any way you spin it, the US is a massive contributor to global pollution, and an improvement is an improvement. It will only make the world that much healthier. We have a lot more work to do than most countries.

can you lot please SHUT UP!!!!! This is a car site not a political issues forum and because of that TALK ABOUT CARS FOR ONCE!!!!!!!

hmmm. actually this is QUITE interesting. is350, i agree with your automotive tastes and views, but NOT your politics. and, s4, the REVERSE holds true with you! lol!

now, can't we all just get along?

I agree. Political views can ruin a lot of things. I don't want to offend GoOsama08 because he likes Lexus, which is first and foremost the most important thing on this site.

You mean Lexus already came out with a diesel hybrid?

o_O

actually rosco, while a lot of "enthusiasts" place UNDUE emphasis on 0 - 60 (i FULLY agree with you on this point), it seems the euro enthusiasts do so FAR more than the toy/lex crowd.

my philosophy: how much time is actually spent ACCELERATING? how much time just cruising? feeding fuel thirsty motors JUST for acceleration potential is fuelish AND foolish! esp. when the extra weight REDUCES cornering ability.

i can CONSISTENTLY MAINTAIN higher CRUISE speeds (which include curves as well as straights) than many a more powerful vehicle. (s4: yes, i AM the former Apex Alex)

This is not very impressive.

The S400 Bluetec hybrid concept was much better. It gave you 40MPG and it was as quick as this car, if not a tad quicker. Diesel hybrids are the future, people.

In fact, is this really any better than the S320 CDI?

MB UK S320 CDI Specs:

0-62 in 7.5 (correct for understatement and 0-60 times, and you get 7 flat)
34MPG avg
£60K

Sounds good to me.

Agreed, but in the US where people haven't quite latched onto diesel yet it will probably prove more popular.

Kinger and Rosko, I agree.

I think Lexus's biggest mistake with the LSh was in marketing it as a twelve-cylinder-esque sedan.

If Lexus develops a more focused hybrid LS that gets much better mileage, AND a performance version, both will be more successful.

if they wanted to, it would be no sweat for lexus to offer their v6-hybrid systems in the LS. for whatever reason, they choose not to. (maybe just to maintain the exclusivity of LSs always having a v8.)

they likely could boost their sales if they did. after all, how many S-classes are sold with 6s instead of v8s? ditto the big bimmers and audis.

maybe aside from the aforementioned reason, lexus is satisfied selling LSs at the rate they are now.

(and of course, there IS the whole GS line. and, maybe they are at full capacity cranking out v6/hybrids. i FINALLY saw a highlander so equipped just a few days ago, altho' it's been offered for years.)

I agree, it is nice to boast of a V8-only lineup, and they do sell a good amount of LSs already.

My point is that it would make so much more sense, having both. Not only would they have better sales, but also much better cars with regards to the competition.

Yes. This whole thing has HYPOCRISY written all over it.

This S400 hybrid will not compare to the LS600h. In terms of performance and economy, this will more likely compete with the LS460, which I am willing to bet will be lighter, faster, cheaper, and more fuel efficient than this Mercedes. And going by previous arguments here, that means that this car is destined to be a failure...

Most of the chaos in this argument comes from an unwillingness to accept these cars' true competitors. Just because they happen to use alternative fueling sources does not mean that they are competitors. The Prius and C220 CDI are not competitors simply because one is a diesel and one is a hybrid. Likewise, the LS600 and A8 diesel are not competitors either. These cars should first and foremost be compared on size and horsepower rating, and then judge them from there.

That's a stupid analogy if I ever saw one. Regardless of its horsepower rating, the LS600hL is no faster than the A8L 4.2TDI. They should be compared.

s4, you FAILED to get his point. you cannot always make comparisons based on a SINGLE metric. cars are MUCH MORE complex.

Yes, I know that.

But why wouldn't it make sense to compare the two?

Not only do they both use alternative power sources, but they're far closer than the Prius/C-Class CDI comparison would suggest. They ARE both full-size luxury sedans, after all. The A8 4.2TDI will keep up with the LS600hL in a straight line despite its power deficit, and it will beat it in the midrange. Furthermore, it gets ~10MPG better on a daily basis. It's far less expensive on top of that.

It is stupid to you because it acknowledges that the A8 4.2TDI vs. LS600hL argument is poor. Pretty much everything is relative, but a Camry V6 does not really compare to a 4-cylinder Accord. And for that matter, the LS600hL has more premium features, hence the higher price tag, and also emits less pollution than the A8 TDI.

"It is stupid to you because it acknowledges that the A8 4.2TDI vs. LS600hL argument is poor."

Incorrect. It's stupid to me because nobody would cross-shop a C-Class and a Prius in the first place. They're different sizes, different prices, different styles, different markets.

The LSh and A8 TDI (or any other luxobarge diesel, for that matter), on the other hand, could easily be compared. They offer similar performance numbers. They're both big, fancy and comfortable. They cater to the same customer. The difference? Mileage. That's where diesels show hybrids who's boss.

My exact point is that nobody would cross-shop an LS600h with the 4.2 TDI. The LS600h is a more sophisticated and upscale car than the 4.2 TDI, like it or not. Yes they are both full-size sedans, the same way both the Prius and the C-Class are both compact sedans. People buying the LS600 are interested in performance first, whereas the equivalent Audi is the A8 W12.

Another Lexus LS wannabe, come this thing only have 279 hp, and the Lexus LS Hybrid has 385hp. And don't forget the Lexus LS look way better than this piece of clunk of metal.

Of course it has less power, it uses a V6. Looks are subjective.

It doesn't even seem better than the already available S320CDI.

and with 279 BHP just dream of it being better than the ultra luxurious 440BHP Lexus LS600h. It's even no match to GS450h.

JUGNU

The S-Class is more luxurious than the LS...

Not only does it match it feature-for-feature (okay, sorry, no self-park), but it uses much more sophisticated interior materials, with finer leathers, much more elegant wood accents and a beautiful simplicity that can't be found in the LS's interior design.

The S-Class and LS are equally luxurious.

"Simplicity" in the S-Class's case equals borderline boring for me. Also, the S-Class's interior design is a derivative of BMW. In other words, a mistake.

I disagree. Simplicity is what ages gracefully. Look at any Porsche 911. Audi TT. Aston Martin DB7!

With all the buttons and different accents in the LS's interior, it will look laughably outdated in ten years. Similar to how the last-gen S-Class's interior looks now. Since then Mercedes has stepped up the S's design to a completely new level--the interior is just gorgeous. Not boring at all, because all the features you could ever want are packed in there, but they're just put in elegantly. The CL is even nicer.

That's my opinion... but I also think it's fairly true.

The fact that I have a differing opinion is exactly what makes your statement 'not true.' Opinions cannot hold absolute truth as you consistently try to defy.

wow rosko2...you are as useless as tits on a boar. This hybrid is evidently not a marketing hype, nor is Toyota/Lexus. Bottom line Toyota/Lexus got the world to listen. They further advanced the hybrid technology in the automotive segment, even though the other brands that "apparently" had this technology under their belt before hand. But in the end Toyota is the only company to actually take that step forward as they do have the money, most importantly the R&D knowledge, the marketing, the right design of vehicles, in either Toyota or Lexus line ups with calculated risks to achieve the numbers and success today. It all stems to having the right principle management, that no other company had or even ready for except Toyota. So keep in mind all other auto brands including MB had a choice back then. They choose diesel over hybrid, but then failed(just like the German fanboys failed to realize) to sell this MB diesel tech to the biggest market which is of coarse U.S.A.(and considering diesel is supposedly better?...which I somewhat agree, but has it's cons too) And how long has MB been holding on to diesel tech, and just now they are able to get people thinking about it?!?!? or achieving some sort of cleanliness. C'mon, that left more than enough time for Toyota to prove the hybrid game in only a matter of 10 years and is now spreading around the globe, and for all we know Toyota "WILL" be ready to unveil their own hybrids diesel right around the corner with other fuel saving techs. So how all this unfolded as a whole when it comes to hybrid tech, Toyota by simple success of hybrid technology makes them the leader(whatever way you want to look at it) as for the rest they are just followers using the Toyota "hybrid-template", but followers that will have to play the same game Toyota did to be where they are today...and for the rest you, that is something you will have to deal with wether you like it or not...

They can't get their gas only cars to work right.I can't wait to see all the problems with a Hybrid.

LOL. and you get this data from????

actually, the shortcomings of electrical/electronic components is well documented in the CR Frequency of Repair charts.

to the extent that of all benz vehicles tested, CR sees fit to recommend all of ZERO percent. NONE. nada.

even toyota gets only 85% of their vehicles recommended. (honda and subaru manage to get ALL their CR tested vehicles recommended. a full 100%.)

maybe MB DIESELS are popular 'cuz those DO NOT require electronics for ignition?

Mercedes: Never touted Li Batteries and DELIVERED them

Toyota: Has long promised Li batteries in their cars AND we are STILL waiting for them.

guys, mercedes heavy move into diesels and diesel hybrids has virtually NOTHING to do with lexus.

EU policy on manufacturers' fleet-wide gas mileage is becoming VERY aggressive in the next two years. and surprise!, this will have a HUGE affect on automakers that produce primarily large, powerful luxury cars.

the german makers have to produce more fuel efficient cars to raise their fleet-wide fuel economy and avoid HUGE penalties in their largest market: europe.

policy, not lexus "hybrids", is driving these developments.

sure. whatever you say.

(apparently, the diesel strategy was NOT sufficient.)

xyz:

clearly you're unfamiliar with the EU. and apparently you don't read the wall street journal or the new york times. anyway...

here's what's going on with EU energy policy (which i've personally made-up, of course). schmuck.

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1198076521.61/

I hope it's reliable.

Rosco, if you'll refer to the research done by CR covering MILLIONS of vehicles over many DECADES, you'll find that of late, even AMERICAN and KOREAN cars are more reliable than the EURO brands.

and reliability means MORE than just the car starting every time. (ALL modern cars can do that.) today, it means all the power accessories ALSO work reliably. that drivetrains work reliably. and that body trim doesn't fall off, or the paint job be poor. and the stereo WORKS without having to be taken back to the dealer a few times to fix glitches.

yes, considering ALL these factors, the euro brands now have to PLAY CATCH UP to the U.S. and Koreans, to say nothing of the japanese. (far less arrogant, detroit HAS caught up! and managed to sneak by the euro brands.)

THIS IS WHY the euro fans get so aggressively defensive, in this forum. they'll talk about "heritage," "technology," "diesels being better than hybrids," etc. etc.

but they shut up when you bring up RELIABILITY.

go away.

The statement performance figures don't matter in this segment is FALSE. When you're spending money on a premium vehicle you want EVERYTHING!

"The LS600hL has no problems going up against the German V12s. Speed, only the S600 beats it"

Are you thick? HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I HAD TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU???

The ONLY car the LS can hang with is the 760!!! The A8L W12 and S600 both leave it in the dust, and under most normal conditions, the BMW 760Li will beat it, too!

The rest of your post is BS...

calm down s4.

how often d'ya think drivers of ANY of these cars engage in drag racing?

balls out speed is generally IRRELEVANT in cars of this class. the buyers generally focus on OTHER things, more personally relevant to THEIR needs and desires.

for those who want to be early adopters and have the MOST ADVANCED technology as a bragging point, the ls600 is the natural choice. and no, they DON'T care that the ls460 is a "better" buy.

the fact that MB is planning this, just ADDS FURTHER PRESTIGE to the lexus LS600hL.