Latest French Study Slams Hybrid Trend As A Misinformed Craze

Don't be silly cptamazing, the French make wonderful comfy car seats and know how to enjoy women and wine. I completely agree with this study as hybrids involve lugging around heavy battery packs that are very costly to replace.

The French are probably world leaders in nuclear energy which is nice clean energy.

My initial reaction is that...were these guys sleeping during their high school physics class?

But then again, getting away from the engineering for a second, if we see a lot more hybrid SUV's getting 25mpg because it is "good enough" instead of of looking for 40, 50, and 60 mpg in a sensible-sized vehicle, perhaps this study has a valid point.

I'd have to say that a society where the average person drove a Civic rather than driving a hybrid SUV and being all smug about it, is one I'd rather live in.

Ya gotta love guys like "t bone" -- let them drive Civics or smaller death traps and leave more gasoline available for the rest of us. Alberta oil sands and Canadian and U.S. coal reserves will sustain us for at least 100 years. Technologies to convert coal into gasoline exist today. Cheap solar energy is just around the corner (what's more renewable than that?).

Water vapor is the most abundant green-house gas. CO2 can be sucked out of the atmosphere by planting more trees. Aluminum and carbon fiber will make it possible for us to drive lighter cars without sacrificing comfortable interior room.

Civic, death trap? What are you on?

Oil sands are terrible - they are expensive, hugely polluting and dangerous.

Not having actually read their report, it is hard to determine what they "STUDIED" to come to this conclusion. Have they studied the amount of oil saved, have they studied the lowered emissions, have they studied FCVs that use hybrid technology in their powerplants? Sounds like a lot of sour grapes from an industry that is missing the boat on the latest technology.

Hybrid is no longer the latest technology.

Compared to the new crop of diesels a gasoline hybrid falls short as car size increases.

Especially in anything larger than a Prius (arguably the best of the Hybrids).

However a diesel hybrid may have a higher purpose, because it benefit from the best of both worlds.

If you think that by (finally) adding particulate filters, urea injectors and low sulfur fuel that diesel has somehow leapfroged the technological jump made by hybrids, well that's certianly an argument that can be had.

So I will just say wait until the next gen of hybrids. Lighter, cheaper, more efficient, more powerful. I know I hate when people say, just wait for the next...., but this is a technology still in its infancy, yet already providing superior benefits. Diesel has been around for 100+years, before anyone has begun trying these cleaner technologies. So if diesel gets a good year or two when these cleaner diesels (finally) arrive, good on them. But it will be short lived until the next batch of hybrids. Then what do diesel mfrs have left up their sleeves??? And will it take another 100 years for the next leap?

Considering that new diesels are more efficient, faster and even as clean, I don't think there's any argument to be had.

New, cleanER diesels are not nearly as clean as hybrids. Cleaner diesels finally meet the same emissions standards as regular gasoline engine vehicles, not advanced hybrids. They (by nature of high mpg) have decent CO2 emissions compared to a gasoline car of comparable size and power, but even the most advanced diesel technology does not compare to the clean tailpipe emissions of hybrids.

Faster-that just depends on the application. The GS450h is much faster than the MBZ E-class diesel(about a second faster to 60). It, of course, sacrifices some mpg for this, tho it does not sacrifice its SULEV rating.

More efficient- If the Jetta comes in at over 50mpg, I'll believe it. Since it is smaller than the Prius, it should achieve markedly superior mpg, if it is truly more efficient. We'll see.

So yes, an argument can be MADE that the new cleaner diesels are superior to gen3 HSD, but the vedict is still out on whether the argument can be WON.

"once a hybrid runs out of electric juice or gets over the electric speed, the gasoline engine will cut in, and due to the lower effeciency of a gasoline engine, it will need to burn more atoms of carbon (bound in different carbomolecules) to produce the same power thus emmiting more CO2/hp."

Sailor, your assumption is based on the gasoline part of the hybrid vehicle's engine being grossly inefficient, which is a common misconception.

The Prius (obviously the best hybrid application) uses an Atkinson Cycle engine. "the Atkinson cycle, where the power stroke is longer than the compression stroke, is increasing in popularity due to the increase in fuel economy it provides." "By adjusting the linkage to allow a power stroke that is longer than the compression stroke, the engine can achieve greater efficiency than with the Otto cycle engine" (Wikipedia)

You are also assuming that hybrids must spend at inordinate amount of time utilizing only the gasoline engine, which is the kind of incorrect information that GM was trying to put out there when explaining that the Prius is a parallel, not serial hybrid. The fact is, the electric engine is almost always in use in the Prius (parallel), leading to high mpg and low emissions, and it also runs for short periods of time in only electric mode, where there are no emissions and of course off the charts mpg. I do not have the exact amount of time spent in each mode, it would be different for every driver. Rest assured, the electric motor in the Prius is almost always on (and it is always on in a parallel hybrid like the Civic.)

Back to emissions, regardless of how long the engine is in electric, gasoline powered or dual mode, hybrids earn SULEV emissions, emitting 10% of the standard emissions allowed by CARB. There are NO new cleaner diesels yet rated SULEV. Federally, the cleaner diesels will meet Tier 2 Bin 5, but that is just meeting the starndard. A T2B5 diesel is allowed to emit as much NOX as three and-a-half Priuses. Kudos to diesels for finally MEETING emissions standards.

So you can essentially win your argument because you are basing it on faulty facts.

Now let's add in the extra cost (and weight...since everyone is so concerned about the weight of hybrid batteries) of the new cleaner diesel engines, the added cost of the fuel, and the added energy required to produce diesel fuel.

If any of these cleaner diesels were due to be CARB certified SULEV, we would know by now, just as we have been told for years now that they would be T2B5 certified. I'm not goin anywhere, so I'm willing to table that one until June when the first CA admissible diesels show up, but trust they will not be SULEV, maybe not even ULEV.

As for CO2, it is, of course, directly correlated to mpg. Therefore as the cleaner diesels have marginally higher mpg than a comparable gasoline engine, their CO2 emissions will indeed be lower. Show me a cleaner diesel that has higher mpg than a comparable hybrid.....you simply cannot. Therefore, hybrids are also better than cleaner diesels re:CO2.

GS450h, your choice:

BMW 535d or the Merc E320CDI (european version)

LS600h... Well, just about any full sized top of the line diesel will give you almost the same performance and a considerably better fuel economy...

As to the Prius, well... Just about every european hatchback has a diesel model which has at least the same fuel economy...

The Toyota Camry is easily beat by the Passat TDI BlueMotion... Among others

First of all, without your actual mpg, numbers you have not proved anything.

Second, in some of your head to heads, the comparison is not valid. Example....The 450h is much more powerful than the BMW and MBZ you are comparing it to. The 450h was designed to showcase high mpg with high performance. The 2 german cars sacrfice performance for mpg.

Comparing any of the hatchbacks to the Prius is way too vague. Give me some example of a real midsized diesel with 0-60 in around 10 seconds that gets 45-50 mpg.

Comparing the Camry hybrid to the Passat...which according to Car and Driver.."Volkswagen is waiting for the show unveiling to confirm suspicions that this Passat BlueMotion uses a 103-hp version of the 2.0-liter diesel engine" Wonder what the 0-60 is for that?

You can put a small engine in anything to beat a hybrid, but that's not a valid comparison.

535d 0-60 in...."BMW says 0-100 km/h or 62 mph takes just 6.5 seconds" (Autobloggreen) 1.3 seconds SLOWER than the GS.

I dont like wasting my time looking up this information for you either, but if I'm going to base an argument on facts and figures, I will at least take the time to do some research, so that I will not be proved wrong.

Now most of the other diesels you've listed are just random cars you threw out to make it seem like you have put more than a passing thought into your point. But none of them utilize the new cleaner diesels, they are from all different classes of vehicles, and you have shown no facts to back up the claims of superior fuel economy and/or performance in comparison to the models that you say they stack up well against.

The Camry Hybrid goes 0-60 in 8.6 seconds (edmunds), gets 33/34 (EPA 08 standadrds), seats five in comfort, is certified AT PZEV, for just over $25000. Can you really argue against numbers like that?? Can your Passat beat numbers like that??

This argument will never be just about mpg, hybrids have too many advantages to just compare mpg.

I agree to the fact that people are obsessing over hybrid vehicles. The mileage and power could be much stronger, but it isnt. I think the automotive industry needs to analyze all different sources of fuel. It cant hurt to have too many options for a consumer. Just like the housing market, there is so much out there and they keep building, that is why prices are diving!
What I dont understand is how people think we should have electric cars when california has rolling blackouts, what are they going to do?

California needs several dozen breeder-reactor-type nuclear power plants which burn up almost all of the nuclear fuel and the remaining nuclear waste can be safely stored in the Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Depository.

I dont believe California has ever had a rolling blackout at night when one presumes most electric charging would take place.

I don't get how any organization can make such an outrageous claim. Hybrid technology is still quite new and certainly there is great potential in this technology. I think there has been some crass assessment in this report. Total bogus.

I assume you are a skeptic?

farabira1, hybrid technology may be new but its hard to get away from the fact that hybrids involve the lugging around of expensive and heavy battery packs. I might consider a plug-in hybrid but only for strictly urban use and only if the economic and environmental cost to society of producing the electricity for recharging overnight is attractive. Recycling and or disposal of old battery packs is also an issue with hybrids.

"lugging around of expensive and heavy battery packs"

This is such a tired argument. Every new technology starts out heavy and expensive. I presume you are old enough to remember older microwaves or VCRs.

Without enough of us early aadopters out there lugging around these heavy, expensive battery packs (while getting 45 mpg and emitting practically just water vapor), we wouldnt be 18 months away from lighter, cheaper versions. What will you fall back on when that happens?

Not to mention how terrible those batteries are for the environment in the first place.

You're not emitting "practically water vapor" from your Pious, you know. Don't think your $hit doesn't smell.

Obviously I know that Prius tailpipe emissions are not practically water vapor. That was an exaggeration that apparently ruffled your feathers this morning. It was a use of hyperbole to point out the ridiculousness of the argument of lugging around all those expensive heavy battery packs. A ridiculous claim countered with my just as ridiculous water vapor assertion.

Lighten up.

Oh and the Pious comment, c'mon that is so tired, I expect more from you.

And of course the batteries terrible for the environment argument..... Do you know how much of every part of a car is terrible for the environment? We should all walk. There is nothing significantly worse about a hybrid battery pack that is not way more than made up for in the efficiency gains realized during the operation of that (partially) battery operated vehicle. (And it's recyclable!!)

yeah the GS450h has a real hard time lugging around the extra weight

First of all, the 450h weighs only 86 kg (189 lbs) more than the 460.

Meanwhile, it does 0-60 in 5.2 seconds, while getting 22/25mpg city/hwy (08 EPA standards), rated SULEV

The GS460 ggoes 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, gets 17/24 mpg and is only rated ULEV.

And it costs just $2300 for all that. Pretty freakin amazing if you ask me.

Oh, so it is not convenient to your argument that I compare the GS450h to the NEW GS460. So sorry about that. Sure, let's compare it to a car using the old, outdated engine. If I did that, the difference in mpg and power would be even greater, again, more than making up for any weight difference.

fine, and then for that extra weight, compared to the V6, you get
0-60 in 5.2 instead of 5.7
22/25 mpg instead of 19/27 (GS350 slightly better on hwy)
SULEV instead of ULEV.

Plus a lot more standard features add some of that weight as well.

Now you're comparing it to the outdated GS300. Lexus.com quotes a weight difference between the 450h and the 350 of 154 kgs. The CVT might be part of it, different wheels, brakes, who knows, they dont break down the weights of each component. You're arguing over minute details, but your main point of these huge weight disparities is way off.

well that helped, thank Josh.

Josh has clearly never heard of Bugatti or Facel Vega.

Europe is actually slightly bigger than the US...

I just hope you never get a passport.

josh: just to let you know, Im a year and half older than you. and bugatti isn't german, its an arm of VW AG

Bugatti is French - the company was founded in Alsace, in France.
End of story.
And it is Facel Vega, not Vega. Facel Vega made some of the most desirable cars in the world at one point. Before you start incorrectly correcting people I suggest you do a bit of learning.
And I'm only 3 years older than you.

Latest US Study Slams French for rudeness and pompous attitudes.

But they make great cheese!

No the modern diesel does not necessarily get better mileage and CO2 emissions than a comparable hybrid. You cant just make a statement like that with no stats to back it up.

In England, where they track CO2 emissions very thoroughly (so the stats are easier to compare), the Prius is only beat in CO2 emissions by the tiny Polo. And there is simply NO midsized, full feature diesel that matches the Prius in mpg.

htachback or not, the Prius is mid-sized, not an economy car or compact as it is so often compared to by the Euro-inclined folks.

Toyotamarc - I don't know the US situation but here in Europe the Prius is classed as a car the size of a Golf, Corolla, Civic or Focus, not the next size up. Hence why the Prius is seen as expensive with not that amazing economy, when rivals will do a similar job for less money.

I'm not going to argue this point anymore today, because I and others have argued it for years, and the Euro-centric folks just dont accept it. You cant base anb argument on two different set of assumptions. If you want to believe the Prius is the same size/class as a Golf or Corolla, then you will never accept that it has good fuel economy. Period. I'm done with this one.

The Prius is in fact beaten on the Co2 front by the Mini Cooper D, Seat Ibiza and the Polo.
And here, official proof that the Prius is part of the "Small Family" class in Britain. This is a government website.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/ActOnCO2/index.php?q=best_on_co2_rankings
Click small family, and there it is, the Prius with the Focus, Megane, A3 etc.
Or you can click "All" to compare CO2 emissions. Prius is joint 2nd, Civic joint 3rd with about 10 other cars, all of which cost less money.

Those are tiny specks of cars with miniscule engines, and they are the only ones that can beat the Prius. They better beat the Prius on CO2, or something is wrong with the laws of physics. I cant believe I still have to make this point.

Mid-Engine, then you are basing your entire argument on one vehicle, and I think you have posted that Autobild article about 30 times. The LS600hL was not designed to get Prius or even Camry like mpg. It does, however still go 0-60 in under 6 seconds, get low 20s mpg, is SULEV and is huge. This is no economy car getting those numbers. So we know that the mpg will be slighhtly lower and the CO2 slightly higher than in the diesels you listed, but how do they compare on performance and emissions?

BTW, I looked up your autoexpress link, those numbers couldnt be more bogus. Lexus 0-60 in 7 seconds, Audi mpg 31.5? Please. They must have been driving the Lexus up a hill.

I will not get into back and forth finding reviews for or against cars. The automotive press has made it perfectly clear over the past couple years that they prefer diesels, air quality be damned. Subjectively for them diesels, German vehicles and anything not Toyota will prevail. These are all subjective views. You have this bookmarked set of reviews that you keep referring to to prove your point.

You want real world objective numbers, dont trust autoweek, go to fuelecononmy.gov, where hundreds of real world examples are sent in. You have to presume some reposndents are lying or inaccurate, but the overall mpg for the 2006 Jetta TDI (compact, smaller than a Prius) is 41.1 mpg, while getting an air quality rating of 1 ouut of 10. Prius averages 47.7 mpg by over 100 respondents, with an air quality score of 8 out of 10 (9.5 in CA), and it has more interior room.

Hybrid and Toyota fans have long given up on the mainstream media, so pulling out those same reviews 10 times a week is only preaching to the choir.

And you really reveal your true colors when you pull out the NObel Prize list. It's quite shameless actually, and it smacks of your Euro/Anglo centrism. A white, European, Anglo awards committee bestows honors on white, Anglo Europeans and Americans, and we should somehow be surprised. I cant believe people on this site keep letting you get away with your b.s.

Yes I was childish with my comment, I do apologize for that. But I just feel each time one of these reports comes out, people flock to it's every word. I could skew numbers to make a Hummer H2 sound environmental. You have to take each of these with some salt and mix and match to get a real observation. Not to mention that Europe seems to rely more on smaller engines, smaller cars, and more diesels than hybrids.

huu - we don't get the BMW 745d in Britain, nor the S420cdi, but we do get the A8 4.2 tdi.
We do however get the ML and GL 420cdi and the Q7 4.2tdi and the Touareg and Phaeton 5.0 tdi.
At the moment Merc and BMW think the V8 diesels are a niche too far, but since Audi is doing very well with it I think they may reconsider.
Those large cars are usually owned by 4 sorts of people:
Taxi/limo firms (3.0 diesel for them)
Companies as executive transport (3.0 diesel)
Companies as part of a company car scheme (3.0 diesel)
Self owned (petrols, usually the larger V8 ones)

Thus the V8 diesels are in a bit of a pickle, but what Audi has found is that self owners like the big torque, great performance (faster than 4.2 fsi) from the 4.2tdi and great mileage.

ANd we also get the A8 3.0tdi.
Where did you get your information?

Even if the hybrid doesn't save the world, it sure as hell will be huge in reducing our dependence on oil. That in itself makes it worth it. You can't "save the world" all at once and this is a good first step. Then there's the added benefit of less pollution from burning less gas. Any problems associated with the hybrids can be solved while we burn our huge supply of coal to power the eventual plug-in hybrids, all while we're not held prisoner by dependence on foreign oil. So in conclusion, the French can kiss my ass.

MidEngine ..

Now with all those posts, we know why you think that way.. most of your posts are bogus opinionated pieces

I see that you keep all your personal opinioned list of URLs ready for articles like this..ready for the cut and paste.. I beginning to think you have some relation to that other biggoted person known as "Rosko2", maybe his bum chum perhaps.. with heads so far up each other..

and the REASON for all this anti-japanese propaganda?

was your pa or grandpa a japanese POW?

there was a book by an aussie pow, whose war lasted like about 2 weeks before the brit forces (who actually outnumbered the japs by about 3 to 1) SURRENDERED.

he also talked disparagingly about the victors. YET there was also an undertone of grudging ADMIRATION.

it seems all YOU are full of (besides BS), is a HUGE GRUDGE. and you likely never even fought in wwII.

well the f6f grumman was developed because its predecessors were being knocked out of the sky like flies by the superior Zero. the Zero was so far ahead of allied aircraft in 1940 and '41, that the japanese invested little to NO money developing more advanced fighters until much later in the war. and even then, those were produced in only small numbers. they also suffered attrition of skilled and experienced fighters that were NEVER replaced.

on surface naval battles, whenever air cover was not a factor, they usually tore apart our fighting ships. there were few fighting sailors, gunners, and torpedomen who could best their japanese opponents in EVEN matches.

ultimately, japan lost only because their industrial capacity was a mere 1/10 of america's. they were DESTINED to lose in a war of attrition. and they KNEW that from the start.

nevertheless, they did develop some very advanced weaponry despite their limitations.

in any case, that is all history. TODAY they are among the technology leaders on the planet.

NO ONE ELSE has yet made a tech tour-de-force comparable to the LS600hL.

Do any of the French car companies have a hybrid or are working on a hybrid ?? Hmmm...

The only nearest example I can think of would be Renault working with Nissan to get one going, but only then because of the Nissan influence in having to keep up with Toyota/Honda..

Citroen/Peugeot are going to introduce a diesel-hybrid in 2009.

up thru about 1700 or so, china WAS the MOST ADVANCED COUNTRY on the planet. by far.

chinese fleets had circumnavigated the globe in 1421-1423 (see book "1421" by gavin menzies), DECADES ahead of magellan. diaz and columbus themselves made their RE-discoveries guided by venetian and portuguese maps BASED ON chinese charts.

if not for a palace coup and the subsequent ban on overseas exploration and commerce, most of the world would be speaking chinese today.

the decline was accelerated when the brits FORCED OPIUM on the chinese, for profit and to weaken the chinese people. china was defeated in the Opium War largely because western military technology had passed them by, after the isolationist decrees.

EVEN AS they were being beaten, the chinese always felt it was ONLY thru "an accident of history" that the "western barbarians" had discovered modern weapons first. they felt once they ALSO learned the latest technologies, with their cultural superiority (MORE than mere belief: their high respect for learning and scholarship spread across asia), they would once again affirm their superior culture AND military strength.

it seems they are well on their way to finally ACHIEVING this. they've already "conquered" the u.s. ECONOMICALLY. following in the footsteps of their earlier more vigorous "younger brother," Japan. which itself has snuck ahead of the u.s. in most non-military technologies.

Who cares about then??? Thats for history books. Its about now. All civilizations have their ups and downs. This thread is getting retarded.

A few Scientist in France give their opionion on Hybrids and believe that it is a crutch technology and not a complete solution to the impended oil crisis. These Scientist are not the ones paying for the Auto makers to Engineer, test, R&D, etc to make vehicles that have to be PROFITABLE!!!

Currently hybrids is a real world solution to help reduce oil consumption. There is a lot more potential with hybrids and it is good to see the auto companies continue to test other alternatives. Most of which is spurred by competition.

they apparently asked the LES INFORMED chinese historians. the ships' logs and other records of the 1421-23 voyages were destroyed. yet knowledge of them were not completely wiped out. other scholars dug up corroborative information.

there were also OTHER chinese trips to n. america, as far back as ca 600 a.d.

look up the website for 1421. MODERN chinese scholars keep finding ever more evidence.

LESS INFORMED

The sooner that gas-electric hybrids cease to exist the better. Oh wait, then I won't be able to point and laugh at the Prius when I drive by in an Audi R8 V10 diesel.

Huu76, to use an analogy, there was an incredible civilization in Egypt 5,000 years ago but that obviously doesn't mean jack squat today. It doesn't really matter which country invented the wheel, we are talking about present and future engine technologies.

neither does it really matter which country invented the car. in the PRESENT state of technologies offered ON SHOWROOM floors TODAY, there is NO ONE ahead of the japanese.

while they MIGHT be leapfrogged by just a little, in a very FEW segments, over the next year or two, with SUBSEQUENT GENERATIONS of hybrids (AND diesel hybrids), they'll leap ahead again.

the average car buyer (which is a FAR larger universe than enthusiasts) likely doesn't give a s**t about what boy racer journos think. they simply buy the car that best meets THEIR needs and desires, at a price they think reasonable.

nor do they CARE what level of stress people in foreign countries endure. or don't.

the FINAL ARBITER of any car brands success, is THE MARKETPLACE.

"European manufacturers have won every Formula One championship and every Le Mans race in the last fifteen years."


and before that, HONDA was dominating F1. after they got bored and quit, they sold some of their engine tech to Ferrari, who in turn dominated F1, spanking all the german entrants.

MidEngine ..

"***"In Europe we need to reduce our carbon-dioxide emissions; we cannot survive without diesel.."

The quotation made.. basically means that on the basis of selling cars, they needed to have diesel cars in their lineup because Europe likes them, he does not mean that Diesel is the future, just meant that there at least needs to be a diesel imn their lineup.. I'll even bet that the Japanese guy was misquoted or put in the wrong context so that it makes it sound as though he did not see any place for hybvrids or hydrogen etc..

About the design of the Lexus LS460, you have no idea if you think it is not Lexus's own design, any dumb fool can see the evolvement from the LS400---LS430--LS460... put them side by side and see..


Typical diehard German fans such as yourself wear BMW/BENZ tinted lense..


Why so uptight? tiny little Germany exports more than China .. you must be joking ! What has China to so with your arguments about Hybrids in this article???