A Lexus That Can Keep Up With Fast Company?

I have asked this of a lot of my Lexus buddies.

It all boils down to perception of the buyer. Some people stereotype both brands and make a decision from there regardless of the real facts.

The IS-F is real competition to the M3 in most ways that matter. Some people just have a hard time with this.

nobody goes to a racetrack to say "my car revs higher then your car". well maybe M3 owners as clarkson would put it.

but the point is, look at the numbers that really count before we compare such minute details

Why dont we just scrap all other makes of cars, and make a BMW for every segment. The world would be a better place, no?

lexus:

"nobody goes to a racetrack to say "my car revs higher then your car". well maybe M3 owners as clarkson would put it."

spoken like a man who doesn't understand driving or appreciate the ferocious sound of great engine wound up to incredible RPMs. european performance cars are lost on you.

enthusiast, thats what the secondary intake is for. no need to rev high to hear the sound of the engine

Once again "enthusiast" proves he lives in some sort of alternate universe where the morning commute is like something from an old Speed Racer cartoon.

Most cars will never set their tires upon a racetrack.

Your arrogance only fuels the negative Euro stereotypes.

JoshLexus4ever,

Stop being a troll in trying to make Lexus fans look stupid. You're only making German car fanatics look idiotic.

xdrive- I am curious who will buy the IS-F as well. Everyone I personally know that has an IS250/350, does not like the IS-F. Styling is the key turn off.

So that makes me wonder, other than a collector, who is this car targeted to? Now I have to admit all these same owners also like the BMW 3 series and M3, but avoid them due to "potential" repair costs. So there is a market for those that willing to take a little less performance on the promise of a gain of minimal repairs. But on the other hand most of these owner do not yet have the financial resources for an IS-F.

Given the past history, Lexus has probably found a niche buyer that will line up for this baby.

Xdrive, what do you say to all the drivers of EVOs, WRXs, previous owners of Supras, 3000GTs, RX7s, maybe current owners of 350Zs who need room for a kid or two and maybe a spouse? Should they give up their love of Japanese sports cars when they find the need for a high performance coupe or sedan, one with a little more coddling and luxury that they have earned? Why move all of a sudden to a German car after a lifetime of allegiance to cars from the land of the Rising Sun? Believe it or not, but owners of Japanese cars, esp performance cars, love them. It's a new world, embrace diversity.

And as for transmissions, the lack of a manual is just not an issue anymore. The VAST majority of buyers, even enthusiasts, do not want a manual anymore, not when manumatics (whatever the curent word is) are so damn good nowadays. BMW initially offered no manual in the M5, and they only offered one when American row-your-own snobs cried for one. THe result was junk, and the original 7 speed autohas been accepted by all as the superior transmission. If 5-10% of buyers dont choose a car because of a lack of manual, that is just a price that more and more mfrs are willing to pay.

Yup, a German car fan troll, that you are.

1970 ... the 3000gt isnt a really good example of a sports car. I had one. I even had the 3000gtVR4.

Screw you JoshLexus4Ever. I am not a Japanese car fanboy. I love German cars, they are the best and will always be. Give me a break I am only 14.

Xdrive, you know I was starting to appreciate your comments, I have no problem with people having different opinions, but then you had to go and make an ignorant comment.

First off, to continue the civilized discussion, I do think it is relevant that someone who may have been an enthusiast 10 years ago with their Supra or RX7 may be in the market for a Japanese luxury performance sedan. It seems like a perfect fit. (never been in a 3000GT, so if it was lousy, fine, that doesnt really change my point.) What do you think they are all driving right now? I dont think that someone who grew up on Japanese performance cars, whether 10 years ago Supras or current WRXs, necessarily wants to jump to German cars. Time will tell.

Now for your ignorant comment. A Prius driver can still be an enthusiast. I cant believe I have to defend that. Right now the Prius is an almost perfect vehicle. No it doesnt handle like a BMW or accelerate like a Porsche, but what it does, it does better than anything else. Thats why owners of Priuses are enthusiasts. Now a couple years from now when it's time to trade in, I'll see what else is out there. Maybe the Toyota hybrid sports car that has been making the rounds, maybe the rumored new Lexus dedicated hybrid, or maybe the next Prius will set even new standards. Dont make assumptions about me based on your prejudices and biases.

and every car I have owned until this one has been a stick

just thought i had to add that.

Competition = Yes
Contender = No

1970toyotamarc - BMW has only put one automatic in a M car the E36 M3, no other M car since has had a automatic . The SMG is a Manual transmission with a electronic clutch. I as automotive enthusiast I would only on this type of car with Manual(more engaging).

As far as your comment "lack of a manual is just not an issue anymore. The VAST majority of buyers, even enthusiasts, do not want a manual anymore" PURE FICTION unless you have some fact to back it up.

On the question of who's going to buy the IS-F. First I don't call an enthusiast someone who's prejudice about a certain type of cars, but is the one who admires and respects a car from all angles. And if a car is known to have better driving dynamics does not make it better than the rest at all.

So answer this question I think the real car enthusiasts that REALLY know what cars are all about will buy the IS-F. This said, doesn't mean that I'm concluding that the IS-F is better than the M3 or the rest, only time and people's experience with the different cars will tell. So if its to me I would compare both the IS-F and M3 from all aspects and which ever wins will be the one I buy.

Don't hate the new guy on the block; get to know him and who knows he might be cool and even better than the other guys. :-)

im very glad to see that not many people will be buying the isf. i definitely like the exterior design of my is350 more than the isf but i ordered one blk/blk anyways. i would never consider the m3..its just not my type of car. the interior and electronics get a zero in my opinion, and the exterior does nothing for me. sure, if your going to rice on a bumpy road, a manual m3 is the car 4 you, but if you live where there is daily, stop and go traffic, a manual is not fun. i do care about speed/acceleration and i believe that the isf will be slightly faster in a straight line. maybe not with two professional drivers behind the wheel around a track, but when driving a manual, a normal driver has alot more chances of missing a gear. to be honest, ive raced against 350s, g35s, a g37, mustang gts, evos, stis and the ONLY car that has ever beat me was a mustang cobra (oh..and a 335i on the highway). my 350 is not the fastest car, but i NEVER miss a gear. i mostly like to have a fast ride in order to maneuver in traffic and get into lanes that other drivers may try to stop me from getting into (i hate that). i havent had any problems yet with my 350. i know the m3 is a great car and its very fast and handles like no other but i dont race. if i wanted a sports car in that price range, id get a porsche or a gtr. what i really want is a stock 96 rx7 tt (that hasnt been boosted). for the record, my first 3 cars were rx7s, then some civics, a 91 integra, and now an is350, just in case anyone is wondering what type of people are interested in the isf.

also..what is the big deal about the low redline? who cares? its not a sports car !! and if the "fake exhaust" bothers you because its not functionable, how about those fake chrome tips at the end of practically EVERY vehicle? what do those do except make the exhaust look thicker? its funny how nobody mentions those but when its about the isf, theyre "fakes".

"but the point is, look at the numbers that really count before we compare such minute details"

You're right. The M3 has...

More horsepower
Quicker acceleration
Better handling
A better suspension
Better grip
More interior space
For less money

And, to top it all off, it can rev higher. Brilliant.

where are you getting that the bmw has more horsepower...?

i believe the IS-F wins by a robust 3hp

Lexus IS-F has 416hp.

BMW M3 has 420hp. In the US, it's 414, so you can average those out and get 417.

"And if a car is known to have better driving dynamics does not make it better than the rest at all."

Excuse me for stating the obvious, but this is the PERFORMANCE sedan class. PERFORMANCE cars are measured in driving appeal. Driving appeal comes from excellent dynamics! It's a painfully obvious deduction! Not only does the M3 match the IS-F for power and better it with the upcoming M-DKG transmission, but it has better dynamics!

"So answer this question I think the real car enthusiasts that REALLY know what cars are all about will buy the IS-F."

To me, this sounds more like an excuse than anything else. "Less people will buy it, so that means less people know about it, which means the people who buy it are smarter!"

Not so. The M3 has garnered its reputation, and sells so well, for a REASON. Because it is the best in class, and now that I realize it, it always will be. It is an icon, and represents everything BMW knows about having fun. I know about the IS-F as well as the M3, and I would still get the M3 over it, for reasons already stated. If the IS-F was a better performance sedan, I'd get that over the M3. But it is not.

"So if its to me I would compare both the IS-F and M3 from all aspects and which ever wins will be the one I buy."

That's a smart plan, but I think I know what you'll buy, and I think you know what I'll buy.

Just listen to this exhaust note (skip to 3:00) and tell me you don't want the car...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114846

Drive an IS-F before you make a comment like " I don't see why anyone would want one over an M3"

Its about choices .. .

Because BMW's break down all the time.

This car fails to inspire in this niche. In this segment of the auto world there is no reward for those who don't stand out. The is-f does not take the lead in any aspect of the uber performance sedan niche. As such I do see the logic in wasting your money on an is-f.

Lexus may differ with you on that.

Well if you're a "Lexus Person" and crave more performance you'll love this car. It serves a need for people that hate Euro cars.From a personal point of view I'd take the M3 or 135TI.

I'd love to see where the IS-F gets better fuel economy than the M3. I hadn't realized that information on either was available.

And to be honest, I live in NY and only drive on weekends (when its not snowing). So I'm hardly concerned about fuel economy as I barely drive 5000 miles per year.

I do see "young" people driving the IS. I do not know why they aspire to it, but there seems to many that think Lexus is something to aspire to...I guess only in America. Because no else does.

Lexus ... wow. that is all your arguement is based on. What about the cost of maintenance for the IS-f? Last time I checked the Lexus is slower, doesnt handle as well, smaller is space for passengers, and is only offered in one gearbox.

Lexus ... go to a lexus dealer .. position the front seats to where you feel comfortable & then go sit in the back seats. Then do that with the BMW 3-series & you will see it is alot smaller in cabin space than the 3-series ...

Dimensions - Lexus IS-F
Front Head room ... 37.2"
Rear Head room ... 36.7"
front shoulder room ... 54.4"
rear shoulder room ... 52.7"

Dimensions BMW M3
Front head room ... 38.5"
rear head room ... 37.5"
front shoulder room ... 57.4"
rear shoulder room ... 55.2"

That looks like a lot to me in regards to size ...

BMW4me4:
"What about the cost of maintenance for the IS-f?"


while yet to establish a record, going by how ALL lexus and toyota products hold up, it will be FAR SUPERIOR to any bmw and especially the M3. from the CR Frequency of Repair charts, M3s a mere 2 years old have 5 black dots. by age 5, they have NINE (9) black dots, including problems for BOTH Engine, minor and Engine, major. AND for transmission problems.

IS lexus models do not get ANY black dots at all UNTIL age 5, and even then, it is just for the "potentially serious," tow truck call, wallet emptying problem in the area of "Audio system." (bmws also have audio problems, even sooner.)

i predict lexus will sell EVERY ONE of these. a good proportion to former german car fans tired of having to be on a first name basis with their service writers.

I would personally take an M3 over this, because the IS-F strikes me as lacking "emotion" and "soul" of what makes a car a car. It seems to be made just to market rather than being made to define a company (or division in Lexus' case). But if it works for Lexus, then thats good.

No, please, not soul, what about magic feel????? Are we there again, it's been so long.

1970:

there's nothing 'magic' about actually feeling the road and being connected to the car in such a way that it reacts to your every input. it's just plain old feeling. something toylex fails miserably with in nearly every car they make.

I'm not talking about handling. I'm talking about getting a vibe from the car. Its just built with a different purpose than the IS-F.

Yes, the IS-F is more than capable, but to me, its more of a marketing tool than a car built in order to further advance a model line.

My stance...

its not failure when they dont try to accomplish it

I'm going to pass your soul in my ISF,the tell me how your soul feels.

I saw a silver IS-F in Manhattan last week. It looked good. I wonder what a fully optioned IS-F would cost. I priced out a fully optioned M3 sedan and it was $64,500. I added all the packages - technology, premium and cold weather and other bells and whistles like iDrive and real time traffic, iPod/USB connection, full red leather, carbon leather interior trim, park assist and a moonroof).

The Lexus has to offer up all those bells and whistles and cost less to get real traction. Outside of the Lexus enthusiasts I can't imagine anyone who wants a performance sedan of the M3/IS-F caliber to opt for the IS-F if the prices are the same.

lfa is not a sedan..

"Pointless? Deeply so. Was there ever an answer to a question so unasked as a hyper-performance Lexus?"

pretty much sums it up. the 60 year olds who drive lexus and prioritize a tiny bit more reliability at the expense of any and all driving fun aren't going to buy this car. maybe it'll be the boys trading up from their WRXs. certainly not buyers of european brands.

Arrogance mixed with stupidity is something you all too frequently provide us with.

Do you think that Ferrari or Porsche owner would be less passionate about cars if they were to purchase an ISF as well?

Josh -- using facts of performance & cost & options tell me how the IS-F is better?

answer:

delusion combined with an inability to accept anything that can't be boiled down to a number is a syndrome you and the lexus fanatics suffer.

have a great day. and try not to fall asleep at the wheel.

Wouldn't someone who is a true lover of cars not be concerned with the country its made in?

That's like not dating girls that were born in a certain state.

And nobody would cross-shop a Ferrari with the ISF, but my point was that someone wouldn't be a fool if they chose to own both.

let's get one thing straight, sub 20mpg is no good for the environment no matter how you slice it. and the only time a bentley owner will cross shop an IS-F or M3 for that matter is to spoil the kids. and i'm not talking the baby bentley owners.

THe BMW M3 crushes the IS-F like a bug.

splatt :-)

Just like the GT-R vs 911 turbo

The 911 won the contest ;-)

Oh...really?

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/02/20/
video-nissan-gt-r-vs-porsche-911-turbo-part-2/

;-)

You are an idiot, just like my boss.

JoshLexus4ever,

If you don't know what torque is, then for sure you are a German car fan and a troll trying to make Lexus fans look stupid.

You're a bigger idiot for admiring Lexus.

Yeah, but you have to drive a Lexus, or is it a Toyota? Either way....

Keep laughing, idiot!

009...I move that if you are not old enough to drive you are not old enough to post. There should also be a basic questionaire to prove you are >16 and your IQ is > 50 before you can post. This might be better for the board and nature.

wow..so if your boss is an idiot and HE IS YOUR boss and makes more than you, that makes you.........lol

If you want torque, buy the C63 AMG.

I feel bad for the real Lexus owners and lovers out there. JoshLexus4Ever is bringing down your overall credibility rating! I bet even Suzuki has a better credibility rating

josh is actually a german fanboy trying to make lexus look bad..cmon..havent you noticed?

lmao ... Let see the IS-F has more torque than the BMW, yet it is alot slower. What is the benefit for all the torque if you cant get it to the wheels properly?

From Car&Driver: For its first F (there’ll be more, rest assured) Lexus presents a V-8 sledgehammer that hurls to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds—fleeter by 0.1 second than an ’08 M3 coupe [December 2007]

I don't know where the "a lot slower" is coming from. This whole Lexus vs. BMW thing has gotten so ridiculous with the mud slinging.

Ironman ... Problem is the IS-F hasnt even been close to those times in anyother article. I posted the results before to someone who argued the same point. If you look online at other articles you will see the Lexus is been performing in the 4.4 to 4.8 range. There are at least 7 articles online that back this up. 1/2 second is a pretty good gap in acceleration. Then put into the equation that the BMW M-DKG is supposed to shave .1 to .2 of a second off the 4.1 time.

Why would you pay for a slower, smaller ( you would know this if you go try and sit in the back seats ), more costly ( BMW paying for maint for 4 years / 50k miles ) lexus IS-f? I could see for curiousity, but not for performance of the car.

the boss .. when you actually drive the car, then you can tell us all about how girly you feel like.

speaking of girls, last night i saw 4 dudes in a CONVERTIBLE m3 with the top down leaving south beach...lmao...even my gf was laughing at them

"From Car&Driver: For its first F (there’ll be more, rest assured) Lexus presents a V-8 sledgehammer that hurls to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds—fleeter by 0.1 second than an ’08 M3 coupe [December 2007"

Putting aside the fact that the M3 has achieved a 4.1 sec time, it will soon be available with a seven-speed M-DKG transmission, which is more fair to compare to the IS-F. It will easily beat the Lexus, seeing times between 3.7-3.9 sec.

A LOT SLOWER? They have same 0-60 4.6, and Top speed is probably the same if you took the limiter off the BMW . .170 ish.

Comments like that make you look . . . .

I can't even comment to these idiotic responses, Pretty soon the M3 will go to 60 miles an hour in the time it takes to push the starter button . 1.5678893 seconds but if you are realy fast with your finger it will do it in 1.5678891.....
I know its
Non sensical just like all comments . . .

My car is better than yours , should be a new reality series, every one can stand next to their cars and throw disses back and forth and the judges will decide whos the baddest at dissin a manufacturer

Argh!!!!!!! WHEN WILL IT END?

I'd rather be pulled by a girl than a power lifter. Just my opinion as a guy.

Screw you JoshLexus4Ever. I am not a Japanese car fanboy. I love German cars, they are the best and will always be. Give me a break I am only 14.

then think of it this way....there are NO VARIABLE COSTS in owning a BMW. just make the payment. who wouldn't prefer fixed costs?

The Lexus is the same price as the BMW. So why would I want to but a lexus that costs more to maintain, smaller in passenger space, isnt quite as quick. What is the point? Lexus lovers wait til their performance car has to come in for routine services. Much more out of pocket than a normal car.

Bulldogz ... price it out again ... BMW is $1800 or about more than the IS-F. Is-f is smaller, slower, doesnt handle as well & will cost more to maintain. BMW pays for brakes, oil services, inspections or tune-ups, wiper blades & bulb replacements for 4 years / 50k miles .... On a performance car that will be about $3k to $4k of maint. during a 4 year stretch if the driver uses about 12k miles per year ...

For the boss, the buyer already paid for it, and so what, BMW still fall within the same price range or cheaper as its competitors, which makes it more of an attractive option, a C Class might be more slightly expensive than the 3 series, but then you throw the "4 year free maintenance" and all the car has to offer, excellent driving dynamics, good looks (IMO), exceptional comfort, and prestige, not in the sense of showing off, but in the sense that you worked your butt off and can now afford something that was crafted with finesse and excellence designed to make what might seem as an ordinary everyday chore (driving) a pleasure and adventure. So BMW to me seems more bang for the buck, Lexus might make great reliable cars, but so does Toyota, load up an Avalon and you got you a nice comfy reliable ride, mash the throttle it would go fast, but don't take any turns with it though.

I am not a die-hard Lexus or BMW fan (I drive an Infiniti). I can see benefits to both the IS-F and the M3. However, if it came down to a choice between the two I would purchase the M3 sedan with the dual-clutch gearbox. In my opinion the M3's styling will still look good in 10 years, but I'm not so sure about the IS-F (the stacked exhaust and side vents are questionable at best).

"yet you had no problem when the old M3 had the exhaust only on the left side and wasn't quad?"

???

That is SO different from stacked exhausts that it's irrelevant.

Since when is a single exhaust strange and unattractive? Because the last time I checked, a stacked quad exhaust is.

Ok, I am actually going to comment on the ARTICLE, which was about the CAR...and not some of the posers who like to slap fight in the comments....
I love the way her describes this car as Rude and Vulgar:
-----------------------------------------------------
Now the car is very interesting: a RUDELY bulging front end, a 416-hp mountain motor bolted to a (count-'em) eight-speed transmission, gargantuan Brembo brakes and a suspension stiffer than Dita Von Teese's corset stays.
-----------------------------------------------------
The engine's most VULGAR feature, however, is the dual-inlet intake manifold, found somewhere inside the maze of engine plumbing. If you mash the gas in this car hard enough, this second inlet channel opens and the engine note transforms from a mellow Japanese wooffle to a soul-tingling, lycanthropic howl. Stay off da moorrrs, laddie!
-----------------------------------------------------
I love the irony in this car. It spins up people who dislike the fact that a car company can be huge AND make great vehicles. It irks fans of the brand, who knew Lexus as a quiet, sedate "luxo-people mover".

All great cars in this segment, would be a privilege to own any one of them (including the CTS-V now).

This would be the car for me, when it's time to buy.
Don't get mad at me! It's my money, my choice. Don't like it? Don't buy it! Spend your money on what YOU want. Best of luck, have fun with the M3, etc, etc, etc....excellent cars. I am looking for something different in my car, dare I say, Ironic Mystique?

Cars don't have soul, the people who designed them have it :)

*her = he

Why do the Lexus fans here seem so desperate and insecure? It's funny and pathetic all at the same time.

And Oh Yeah... I Guarantee you that all the Lexus Lunatics here are from America.

sounds to me it's more like the bmw fanbois are the desparate ones. so much slamming of the is-f when there's hardly any on the streets yet.

ALL the criticisms are simply "bench racing" talk, based on magazine articles.

sounds like the is-f will be such a fierce competitor, the fanbois are trying to smother the baby before it grows (in the marketplace) and becomes a giant.

Becomes a "Giant". How did you come to that conclusion? You are just as bad with your predictions because no one knows what the is-f will become.

We've heard this all before. The is300 was supposed to be a E46 330i killer, it wasn't. The IS350 was supposed to be an E90 330i killer. Although the is350 was faster than the 330i, the 330i trounced the is350 in handling and was the better overall car. BMW introduced the 335 nullifying the IS350's speed advantage over the 330i, while still enjoying better handling.

So now after two failed attempts you claim that the is-f will become a giant? What on you basing this on? Fanboy'ism? The IS-F is based on a car that already isn't as great a handler as the BMW. I see a serious uphill battle for the IS-F as well as hurt feelings.

Toyota is NO new new comer when it comes to performance. IS-F is a good start in the Luxo-Performance segment. Had to happen eventually, especially when even GM got into the mix.

The IS-F doesn't fit into the brand. Just doesn't seem like something that appeals to Lexus customers. Current BMW customers seem satisfied, so what's the point of this car.

There is no point. BMW owners aren't going to switch, I doubt that AMG MB owners are putting for sale signs on their cars, And flashy cars do not appeal to the current 60 Year-old Lexus demographic. What do you have left after that? A bunch of teenagers are 20 somethings that cannot afford the car in the first place.

The only folks that will get this car are rich, young, Lexus fanboys. There are a lot a young Lexus fans but a very, very small portion of them are rich.

LOL!

people said much the same when lexus first popped on the scene in 1989. shortly thereafter, storage lots were bulging with unsold mercedeses!

the performance german sedans are about to experience a similar shock.

But no unsold BMWs.

JoshLexus4Ever & Lexus_Admirer = BANNED.

That's a great picture.

WOW... most of the posters here are such dorks, swearing their life to protect the cars of their dream on an internet blog site.

They are both great cars (M3 and IS-F) so just get over it... you will never be able to convince the fanboys otherwise, so why waste your breath?

Good start into the uber sport sedan market. I am humored by all the comparison to the M3, while the M3 maybe the benchmark, I think the most natural competitor is the Mercedes C63. Both are automatic big engines stuffed into a small car.

Actually, the Audi RS4 was the benchmark, till the new M3 came along 2 years later.

After reading this very long list of blogs from everybody, I think the one that really made sense was the last one. I mean you, ThierryHenry14.

They are both great cars, and each one is always going to have its share of fans and haters.

IMO, I like them both.

What in the hell is an RX7?

>:-)

ive owned rx7s and im looking for a 96 tt now but "twin turbo all day" lol...yeah, if u want to rebuild your motor every 3 years. i plan to keep my rx7 stock and my is350 is faster 0-60 already, the isf will smoke the rx7 from 0-60

All I know is when I get mine,I'm going to smoke every bmw and mercedes I see,and point and laugh my a** off.

Wow, I'll make sure to pull to the side of the road with my baby daughter and wife in the car, so you can continue to live your life "one quarter mile at a time".....

One thing that really trips me out when I come to this site and read the different comments, are the bmw fans arrogance towards the cars themselves, yes bmw's are by far very worthy and capable machines but that doesn't mean that a lexus can't be in the same league as a bmw. Not trying to upset anyone or anything but there is nothing wrong with giving credit where credit is due, the IS-F is a pretty mean machine in it's own right, I don't understand the question of who will buy it? someone made a commit earlier stating that everyone that he knows doesn't like the look of the car, but that's just the point (everyone that he knows), that doesn't count for everyone now does it? at the end of the day all of the car manufacturers want the respect and the prestige of mercedes anyway, their the ones that all of the premium car companies want to be compared to.

"Dude, there is no prestige in owning a Mercedes nowadays..."

You are absolutely WRONG.

You may think that, in your own world, a Merc isn't nice, but to everyone else (where prestige comes from--the general public), a Mercedes-Benz is a dream car. EVERYONE wants an SL or an S-Class. Deal with it.

"Dude, there is no prestige in owning a Mercedes nowadays,"

dude, you have no clue. mercedes is an incredibly prestigious brand. and the economics back it up. people are willing to pay as much as 50% more for a mercedes vs. lexus version. SC staring in the $60ks, SL staring at $96k. LS starting at $61k, S-class starting at $88k. etc. etc.

got anything to back up your opinion, dude?

over 100 posts on another IS-F thread. Good Lord.

1970toyotamarc,

Not only that, but JoshGerman4Ever is the new antithesis of JoshLexus4Ever! Priceless!

"All your segment are belong to us" ~ Chris Bangle

wtf does that mean?

BMW #1.

Get over it ToyLex fanboys!

number one in engine failures.

"number one in engine failures."

Wow. That's funny. And creative! You are a genius, my friend.

Because you don't have to bring your wallet to the Lexus dealer.

I am partial to bmw myself...but I would have to say that the IS-F is a pretty mean machine and probably more reliable too. Plus you get cheaper maintenance costs as well.

Well... BMW has free maintenance. It would be pretty hard to have something cheaper than that, unless they paid you every time you brought your car in!

IS-F, RS4, C63, M3, .. etc

ALL GREAT cars, just a matter of preference.

with regard to maintenance costs...

while yet to establish a record, going by how ALL lexus and toyota products hold up, it will be FAR SUPERIOR to any bmw and especially the M3. from the CR Frequency of Repair charts, M3s a mere 2 years old have 5 black dots. by age 5, they have NINE (9) black dots, including problems for BOTH Engine, minor and Engine, major. AND for transmission problems.

anyone wondering WHY BMW OFFERS "FREE MAINTENANCE" FOR THE FIRST FOUR YEARS? BUT NOT THRU YEAR FIVE? you just got the answer.

IS lexus models do not get ANY black dots at all UNTIL age 5, and even then, it is just for the "potentially serious," tow truck call, wallet emptying problem in the area of "Audio system." (bmws also have audio problems, even sooner.)

i predict lexus will sell EVERY ONE of these. a good proportion to former german car fans tired of having to be on a first name basis with their service writers.

what are you talking about? Cr report is your reason for validation about maint costs. BMW pays for your maintenance costs, because they feel you as a consumer shouldnt have to pay for it after paying the money you do for a luxury car. I agree. You think that the routine maint. will be cheap on the IS-f? Expected service intervals for the IS-F that you will have to pay for- 1. 1,000 break in service ( est $200 to $ 300 ) ... 2. Oil change at 7500 miles ( est $ 200 to $ 400 depending on what else need to be done ) ... 3. 15k mile service ( $ 400 to $ 700 not too familiar with how lexus does this service but it usually consists of a complete check up of the car ) ... 4.22,500 oil service $ 200 to $300 .... 5. 30k miles service & brake pads & rotors service ( $ 1,000 to $1500 depends on what else needs to be done ) ... In the first 30k miles one will probably pay out around $ 2,000 in routine maint. BMW you pay nothing ....

In regards to service and such with BMW and your Cr reports. The difference in reliability between Lexus & BMW is 1 extra problem that happened in the first 3 years of ownership according to JD power and associates annual Car reliability index ... and you reliability point is? Is that the whole arguement you have for the Lexus?

Lexus is a nice car & I havent disputed that ever. The IS-F is good first attempt, but this is a hard class to get into. The IS-f needs some work in order to be successful in this market and I believe they will make some good adjustments. In a few years, I believe they will have a serious contender in this market.

ill take a M3 sedan over the IS-F. I dont hate the IS-F it just looks a bit ricey. the shape of the car isnt as elegant as the M3 os isx50. the is-f is too shouty and fat looking.

this topic is way out of control lol!

i second that... too much immature people talking about things they know nothing about, but pretending to be experts and enthusiasts.//

@ JoshLexus4Ever and JoshGerman4Ever,

Could you please spare us of your 'Sybil' complex!?

Pick one dysfunctional personality and stick with it.

Josh ... you are 14. all your lexus friends who cant drive, huh? lol .. yes you dont need a road test or a brain for that matter.

if he really is 14 years old... and thinks he can afford a 60k sport compact (or have daddy buy it for him) he must be crazy.

hey josh dont count on the car to woo the ladies, once you drop your pants, theyll run away. fast. really fast.

hmm...I know bmw takes care of maintenance for the first 4 years...but what I meant was maintenance & realiability after your warranty is up. I have A 5 series so I know what im talking about. Bmw just have so many problems after 4 years and to all of you who doubt this pick up a "BIMMER" magazine and read there right ups about common problems for specific cars. Lexus/Toyota just have less problems in the long run..its just a fact...sorry

"hmm...I know bmw takes care of maintenance for the first 4 years...but what I meant was maintenance & realiability after your warranty is up."

Yes, that's true, but most luxury car buyers don't keep their vehicles much past that point. It's a smart strategy.

"Lexus/Toyota just have less problems in the long run..its just a fact...sorry"

I am aware.

lexus:

the VAST MAJORITY of luxury cars are leased.
most leases are 36 MONTHS.
therefore...

it's not rocket science. no need for a battery of statistics.

"Proof please. Otherwise, stop talking out of your asshole."

You're very, very angry. Time for a nap!

It's called COMMON SENSE. Most, if not all, luxury buyers don't keep their vehicles very long at all. They frequently move on to the "next big thing," and I would guestimate that the average time of ownership for a luxury car is the four years BMW has free maintenance for.

But which car actually lasts longer? The older BMWs still looks tight while the older lexuses have warped body panels, large gaps in the seems, fading paint, etc..

The BMWs are built more solid than the Toyotas IMO.

"But which car actually lasts longer? The older BMWs still looks tight while the older lexuses have warped body panels, large gaps in the seems, fading paint, etc..

The BMWs are built more solid than the Toyotas IMO."

Ugh yea....how bout no! Do you even own a bmw? I do, like I said check out any bimmer magazine or forum and we bimmer nuts can tell you about the wonderful experiences that we have of our bmw's. So please refrain from talking out your ass.

Yes I do own a BMW (since 2001). Why would you think otherwise? I'm talking from experience. What are you basing your argument on? Bimmer Magazine? LOL!

i can seriously imagine all the laughter the agents are going through because of all this nonsense

yeah

I agree. But there is one thing that all the Lexus lovers here have in common. That would be that they are all American!

Lexus are sold virtually everywhere in the planet. How come you don't see anyone from Europe arguing that Lexus are better cars than BMW? Not a single person! Is every European a BMW fanboy? Even the folks from Japan (unless they are Japanese American) knows better than to make that argument.

It just goes to show how clueless Americans are when it comes to cars, or how much they believe advertising over everything else. The Fact is that American don’t push their cars. It’s because of insanely low speed limits and overpopulation (for people that live in the cities). They’ve never pushed a car to the limits to see how it would react, so they rely on advertising and their own personal preference to determine which car is the better performer. Europe (germany) is a completely different story. They have the autobahn with unlimited speed limits. Whose advice would you seek if you needed advice about which cars really perform? The person from Europe where they have unlimited speed limits, Or the person from America where they just recently lifted the 55 mph “National” speed limit? There’s nothing wrong with liking Lexus. Just don’t put them at the top of the performance class yet (if at all).

Before you guys attack me I’d like to let you know that I am an American.

How bout yes.

"I have owned many Bimmers, not one major problem. You Yota fans are just jealous.

Its your only argument because your cars can't win on performance numbers."

"Yes I do own a BMW (since 2001). Why would you think otherwise? I'm talking from experience. What are you basing your argument on? Bimmer Magazine? LOL! "

Interesting..not a YOTA fan for one lol, Im also not a FANBOI as you two obviosly are LOL. And exactly what are you basing your arguments on...your own personal experience??!? Yes lets just ignore recalls, and service bulletins issued by bmw. Or lets ignore the hundreds to thousands of fellow bmw owners like myself that frequent the bmw forums and list numerous problems with there bimmers. Why? because you two had no MAJOR problems with your cars ROFL. FanBois gotta love em.

"Or lets ignore the hundreds to thousands of fellow bmw owners like myself that frequent the bmw forums and list numerous problems with there bimmers"

- Every Automotive forum has users that have problems with their cars. Why Do you think that BMW is the only one? And besides why do you frequent BMW boards?

"Yes lets just ignore recalls, and service bulletins issued by bmw. "

- Every car has recalls you idiot. Toyota has had more recalls than BMW this year, FACT. The Simple fact that you chose to ignore that fact proves that you are a blind fanboy.

Lexus fans= PWNED

BMW is like a football team that get's their butt's handed to them for the last 8 years in a row,and they still talk trash.Its the same when Arron broke Ruth home run record,they hate to see their team or car company get their butt kicked.

Who handed BMW thier butts for the last 8 years? And what specificaly did they get thier butts handed to them for?

Lexus you fool.Who do you think sold the most luxury cars and suv in the U.S. the last eight years,and don't bring up europe they sell stripped down bmw's there,priced like toyota's here in the U.S.

Bottom line, no matter how "GOOD" this car is, Lexus wont sell many of these, no where near the number of 335 or M3's, or RS4s/S4s, or C55 or C63s, or even CTS-Vs. Lexus image is focused more on self-parking featurs and keeping stacked crystal flutes from from spilling champagne while revving the engine, and driver isolation, not driver involvement. When you think of all the people you know who own Lexus' (Lexi?), how many of them would you consider "Driver involved"? Not many, not even close.

And because they won't sell many, they don't have a base revenue stream to invest in future versions of performance minded models, limiting their R/D businss justifications to square off against BMW.