Who is Telling The Truth? Did The Japanese Government Bankroll Toyota's Hybrid?

"Did The Japanese Government Bankroll Toyota's Hybrid?"

Possibly, the Japanese are known for high involvement in their pride industries. They view them as a mechanism through which policy is executed.

True, But if this is correct. Then it can be argued that the Japanese government unfairly funded an unfair advantage that drove the competitors towards bankruptcy in the USA.

After all this is an election year, makes the topic ripe for foreign trade policy.

True, The Japanese government has facilitated Toyota's groth and expansion by formulating specific laws targeted to their advantage. Almost like a nationalization without the government ownership.

The U.S. Government on the other hand is the complete opposite. We like to stick it to the car companies and pass laws that dont help or benefit them in any way whatsoever.

Ah yes, I can see it now, the next WTO Trade War; Hybrids.

Exactly! What is fair concerning the WTO? Can a government with basically unlimited resources fund a private entity in this manner?

"Can a government with basically unlimited resources fund a private entity in this manner?"
The US govt does it all the time.

wild politics started with sex scandals, and are now getting to cars.

Halliburton

1970toyotamarc- Give an example of something non military the US has funded 100% for the big three?

I already did, Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles.

1970toyotamarc - And how many vehicles made it to market under this program? None

A federally funded program for all of the industry is acceptable. However a federally funded program for only one manufacturer with a specific product to bring to market in this case the Prius (vs general research for a broad spectrum of vehicles) is another matter.

Rather than assisting by simply developing technology, (if this is true) the Japanese government may have 100% GIVEN Toyota a dagger to thrust into the competitions heart.

Was is intentionally malicious? I think not.
Was it playing by the rules as we perceive them to be? No
Was it a WTO violation? I don't know.
Was it fair as most Americans see it? I doubt it
Is it something that could mushroom into a trade policy issue? Probably

You are unbelievable, 009. Perhaps you did not scroll down and read the rest of my posts pointing out instances of when the US govt did exactly what you are saying they do not do, GIVE MONEY (in tax breaks, incentive, loans, etc) to INDIVIDUAL CORPORATIONS, including GM.

PNGV gave a ton of money (between 1-1.5 billion, depending on who you ask), split amongst 3 companies. But since that is not specific enough for you, then scroll down and read about what they did for just GM. And I'm not going to repost it, or try to find more examples of it. The fact is, the US govt does it, and they do it all the time. We live in a Corporate Welfare state.


"how many vehicles made it to market under this program? None"
No, but the technology has found its way into other vehicles, I understand even the Corvette has benefitted from it. The fact that no cars came out of it speaks only to the ineptitude of the big 2.1.

"A federally funded program for all of the industry is acceptable. However a federally funded program for only one manufacturer with a specific product to bring to market...is another matter."
Says who? And I shouldnt have to point out again that there is NO proof that anything like what you are describing EVER happened.

"Was it playing by the rules as we perceive them to be? No"
If any funding, tax breaks, etc were provided, that is playing by the exact same rules that ALL govts play by.
"Was it a WTO violation? I don't know."
If it was, then the US govt is in BIG trouble for doing the exact same thing to the tune of tens of billions EVERY YEAR.

You are being quite selective in what you choose to see and accept on this, and that is very disturbing. It really speaks to a broad problem on this site. From the ridiculous headlines to the biased editorializing to the vitriolic posters, this place reeks of anti-Toyota hatred. If it is your goal to drive away the five or six of us Toyota fans left, you are doing a damn good job.

Press is a PUNK. He blows the whistle now he's out of Toyota, instead of 10 years ago when he was working for them. These people I tell ya...

This would have been big news 10 years ago. Who cares now?

Plenty. You have a foreign company beating the pants off of the American companies, causing them to layoff American workers.

This company had made a name for itself promoting a technological product 100% paid for by their government and then "dumped" in this market to wreak havoc.

Did it really happen this way? No, but it easily can be twisted by any potential candidate wanting to smear either side. In political war anything goes, so it seems.

"This company had made a name for itself promoting a technological product 100% paid for by their government and then "dumped" in this market to wreak havoc."

Everything in that sentence is unsubstantiated, in fact could be lies. First, there is still no proof of Japanese govt involvement, and even if there was, we do not know at what level it was. And had the govt given any money for R&D, that would be consistent with wht the US govt does as well. Second, Priuses are not dumped any more than the EV1 was dumped. In fact, every Jaguar has been dumped since Ford purchased it. Actually since GM loses money every year, all of their vehciles are dumped. The Prius has been profitable for years. And finally, wreak havoc? The Prius was initially projected to be a niche vehicle, with an allocation of 36K units. I dont think that was really designed to wreak havoc.

You're letting go of common sense today in some ridiculous attempt to discredit Toyota.

Nice job confirming the bias of this site.

Halliburton

It is unsubstantiated I was stretching in the manner a political adversary would use it.

I even mentioned that it didn't actually happen that way.

However I do believe the Japanese government keeps the Yen artificially low to encourage exports. But that is another story.

Then the US got must be keeping the dollar artificially low to help the US's sagging exports.

This is an oft repeated claim, again with no substantiation.

Earth to XeroKool...

This is a foreign government that unfairly funded a private industry thus giving it an unfair advantage that drove our domestic's profits down.

Unethical? Sure!
Corrupted? You bet!
Fuc*d up? Hell yeah!

that'd be like the government subsidizing the Ethanol industry....That'd be crazy!?!?!? Hey wait a sec....

General Industry and Specific Corporations are two completely different things that should not be confused.

US car companies have many wounds, all self-inflicted. Blaming their sad state on hybrid's small market segment makes you an ignorant fool/American car company executive.

w209w114- Thank you for pointing out a company vs an industry. A lot of people are missing the point.

Agent 009....the "industry" vs Company argument is only valid if many companies use the technology.....ethanol is a domestic car manufacturer product. ie tax credits for "flex fuel vehicles" that do not use flex fuels, it's a joke.

When the entire industry is three companies, is there really a difference. You're splitting hairs.

800over

"Ethanol is a domestic car manufacturer product. ie tax credits for "flex fuel vehicles" that do not use flex fuels, it's a joke"

WRONG!!!!!

Many foreign vehicles are able to run on E85. Heres one.. The Mercedes C-Class. If you want a list of he rest I'd be happy to provide it. Get your facts straight

The CAFE credits for ethanol are directly made to benefit three...THREE...3.. companies, GM, Ford and Chrysler. Thats a govt handout.

if it is A CRIME for a gov't to use ALL taxpayers' monies to benefit just a FEW companies (and a strong case can be made that it is or at least SHOULD BE),
then what's been done for toyota AND the detroit trio is just PENNY ANTE stuff.

look at the subsidies the Big Oilys suck out of Uncle SweetTeats!

tax credits. oil depletion allowances. use of u.s. army AND navy AND air force to secure foreing oil sources. etc. etc.

it is NO ACCIDENT the Big Oilys are racking up RECORD PROFITS. (and still, how much did cost to fill up your tank this week???)

And why would Press spill the beans while working at Toyota? Toyota would have fired him without hesitation.I tend to believe him over Toyota.

Thats clear. and I agree with you!

Wether Japan Gov did or did not fund Toyota, what difference does it make anyways? After all the U.S. Government has denied any support towards it's own Domestic Auto Corps in the past for no valid reason. Propably b/c they find providing at least a "Trillion" dollars towards the recent "WAR" was more valuable than it own American People who need it more. Remember the domestics(GM, Ford, Chrysler) had a choice in life on how to operate their auto corporations. Unforturnately they con't to make the wrong executive decisions...period!

Umm no. Perhaps you arent aware of what CAPITALISM means. Its means private industry gets no help from the government. I hate it when people like you make these absurd illogical statements.

Everyone has the right to their own point of view, but not everyone is educated or knowledgable enough to have the correct one.

Except that the US govt isnt even remotely capitalist.

1970Toyomark

Hey genius, since you want to get technical its not 100% Capitalistic. If there was there would be no social government agencies like social security, medicare, NASA, NOAA.. the list goes on!

It is however, the closest thing in the world to true Capitalism, therefore it can be said that the U.S. sets the mold.

thats what I said, good lord!!!!!

"the closest thing in the world to true Capitalism"

I didnt read that part, thats a claim you simply cannot back up.

I don't know about the closest but there is something called the Index of Economic Freedom- The United States is fifth- but is highest large economy. I quote from the Heritage Foundation:

"America could do better in its scores for fiscal freedom and government size, which are 7 and 8 points below average, respectively. Total government spending equals more than a third of GDP. Corporate and personal taxes are moderately high and are getting relatively higher as other advanced economies reform with lower tax rates."

Can you imagine what GM and Ford could do with unlimited funding from Uncle Sam.

no they all would be like Lexus and cost $19.95 ea

Its certainly a good place to do oil business.

The US govt pays corporations to go offshore.

"The US govt pays corporations to go offshore"

That is not strictly true- and it implies something that is entirely wrong. The federal government waives their right to royalties in order to get corporations to assume more risk and develop new areas-they don't pay them. Many of these areas would not have been developed had the government not done that- the government receives no money in that situation either.

Let me try to convey how much uncertainty there in in the Gulf of Mexico Offshore operations- where a single wildcat well can cost over $100 million. The typical hurdle rate; the rate used to discount in the NPV caluculation is between 15%-17%. The ACTUAL rate of return average is only 6% for the GOM. This analysis is from Wright. For many of these corporations it is more advantageous to put the money in a bank.

In addition, that 6% is lower that most of those corporation's WACC and so they may make money but they are destrying the value of their corporation.

It just struck me that you may not have been talking about the GOM oil so called "subsidies". Interestlngly, the law that governs this, which was passed under Clinton, was highly ambiguous and did not include a provision through which the royalty rent agreements could cease in times of higher prices.

I didnt mean offshore drilling. Perhaps I misspoke, I meant providing tax incentives to send factories to other countries.

No you didn't misspeak...I was reading too fast and your messages ended up together mentally.

But if you remove all hybrid models from both the Toyota and Lexus lineups for the past few years, both companies would still have done quite well.

Toyota was doing well before any hybrid models too.

American car companies aren't hurting because of Prius sales. They're hurting because the general public doesn't seem to want to buy what they're offering.

I'm (as usual) disappointed in a lot of Autospies posters. If you dont know what you're talking about, stay out of the conversation. (You know who you are, obviously this is not directed to everyone.)

1. Had the Japanese govt actually done this, it would not have been a big deal. To anyone who thinks that the Japanese govt funding research gives them an unfair advantage, I would ask you to look into the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles," a US govt funded program in the 90s that spent billions on behalf of Detroit automakers, with no actual resulting vehicle. In fact the US govt funds industries (corporate welfare) at an alarming rate. Oil companies made 123 billion dollars in profits last year, but are currently asking Congress for 18 billion dollars in tax breaks.

2. There is no reason to believe that this is true anyway. If it were true there would have been a huge paper trail. Jim Press has offered no proof for his allegation. Toyota does not need to prove something did not happen. Press needs to prove it did.

So many of you hate Toyota so much that it clouds rational judgment. Think (or read) before you post.

1970toyotamarc

1. I agree on funding for an industry, but not a sole maker as is alleged. And I agree record profits for the oil companies and then them pandering for research cash is ludicrous.

2. Yes Jim Press needs to back up such a claim.

I hate posting the same thing twice in one thread, but people are prone to read only what they want to read...

"The Commerce Department's Advanced Technology Program is advertized as a job producer. But from 1990-94 the ATP provided more than $250 million to eight firms--Amoco Corp., AT&T, Citicorp, DuPont, General Electric, General Motors, IBM, and Motorola. Over those five years, these firms reduced their total U.S. workforces by 329,000." Cato Institute

But I will add....

"General Motors has received over $500 million in direct loans and loan guarantees from the Export-Import Bank. The result? GM has shrunk its U.S. workforce from 559,000 to 314,000."
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0515-09.htm
and...

"General Motors received tax refunds totaling almost $1.4 billion dollars in 1995 and 1996, despite reported U.S. profits of $5.2 billion, apparently in large part due to depreciation tax breaks generated by its leasing activities."
http://www.ctj.org/html/corpwelf.htm

Really, how much more time do you want me to spend on this?

quite frankly, it benefits the consumers, so if the government did, thats great, if not, thats great as well...

Anyone that says "it is no big deal" has NO idea about business ethics!!!

Will be an interesting story as it developes. I tend to believe someone that came from Toyota than some fan boy on web sites. Jim Press (if truthful) simply exposed dealings within Japan. While Auto makers all over the World has to fund and develope technology themselves.

This gives Toyota an unfair advantage against the competition and if it is truthful then US Gov't should tax the hell out of Toyota.

Ummm..your kidding right?!?

That's assuming that it was funded, which is not likely. Again, where is the proof? This was no Manhattan project. It is pretty easy to find where govts spend their (non classified) money.

And in fact you can see where the US govt paid a billion dollars to Ford, GM and Chrysler. What you cant see is the fruit of all that money.

Toyota spends hundredss of millions of dollars on R&D. Do you really think they need any money from the govt? Any substantive amount given to them would be easy to locate. But good luck, cuz its not likley to have happened in the first place.

Halliburton

ethics or not, I hate to bring it to you, but every country does it, and it really is a way to protect its national interests.

Every single country has or are taking preventative measures to protect their industries from international competition. Its a fact of life, eventhough there are many measures to try to counter that by international trade laws, there are ways to circumvent the trade agreements.

exactly Thierry. EVERY country does it. But there is no evidence that this was done in this case for the benefit of Toyota or the Prius.

right... I'm not going against Toyota or Japan or anything. I'm just calling it as it is, and its definitely not isolated to the automotive industry.

Even if the Chinese goverment financed the R&D tech for the Prius(and I do believe Press), it still doesn't substantiate it having any type of effect with regards to the downfall of the Big Three. They were on their way down before any type of popularity any hybrid car started having. But the implications by Mr. Press could be very substantial for foreign trade if its ever investigated, which is why Toyota is denying it in the first place. So to answer the question of whose telling the truth, my bet is on Mr. Press. Government leaders and mega corporations have a bad track record when it comes to telling an entire story.

Hey W209W114, it's about time to pull the thumb out of your ass. As I clearly know what I'm talking about, it's for the unfortunate "tits on a boar" like yourself or any other yahoos who agree with "tits on a boar", who are naturally blind sided with reality. Just facts "tits on a boar", just facts...LMAO!!!

Its more than clear you cant come up with a relevant and valid response to argue with my response to your post. And thats okay! :)

You do know that its okay to be wrong, right? Everyone overwhelmingly agreed with me, not you. If you had half a brain maybe it would set off a light in that empty head of yours and you would go on to post intelligent thoughts here, but apparently it was too much for someone of your likes.

Well, Happy Posting! :)

"You do know that its okay to be wrong, right?"

You might remember that sometimes.

"Everyone overwhelmingly agreed with me, not you."

Sure they did...........

If the US decided to fund one of the big 3 in the area of developing a 100% electric car, I would be supportive. Even if they overtook the market in that arena. That being said, maybe the US should look at Japan as an example.

We all know The U.S. Government will never take on that task. It is against the values it was founded upon.

w209w114, what world do you live in, actually? You could debate for hours what "values" this country was founded on, but it would tell you nothing about the values under which it currently operates. We are a corporate welfare state. Our govt, tax rates, expenditures, and wars are all designed for the aid of the almighty corporation.

No, you cannot argue about the values upon which the United States was founded- it has a very specific philosophical origin. The foundational documents of this country, their wording , the history, even the very existence of the United States of America is the result of the Enlightenment. The United States is the progeny of the Enlightenment.

I have only encountered a single argument that has the possibility of yielding the outcome you imply. Don't take this too personally; you do not possess the level of knowledge required to argue it. I can say that because you haven't argued it. All others I have seen are essentially inhomogeneous conflictual radical consequentialism.

CDoke,

Well said! Exactly my point. Everyone thinks they can have a say in every issue when infact, most people arent even close to being knowledgeable. I dont think I have a say in nuclear physics engineering but 1970ToyotaMarc may think he does.

w209w114, you have such an inflated opinion of yourself, it disgusts me. I dont talk about things I know nothing about, which is why I have posted evidence for several of my points of view on this and other topics, while you just spout off platitudes. Should we look at what you have stated on today's burning issue....

"The Japanese government has facilitated Toyota's groth and expansion by formulating specific laws targeted to their advantage. Almost like a nationalization without the government ownership."
Gross generalization, where are your examples, and how is this differnet from other nations?

"Press is a PUNK. He blows the whistle now he's out of Toyota, instead of 10 years ago when he was working for them. These people I tell ya..."
Accepting what Press says as a fact, without any evidence to back it up.

"This is a foreign government that unfairly funded a private industry thus giving it an unfair advantage that drove our domestic's profits down."
Again, accepting as fact that which has no evidence.

"Unethical? Sure!
Corrupted? You bet!
Fuc*d up? Hell yeah!"
Pure opinions.

Now I'm sure that if this post were about nuclear physics, but had something negative about Toyota in it, you would be the expert with all your opinions. But again, I would not expect a single fact from you.

Bottom line, you had nothing to add to this discussion except an agreement with Press. Well good for you agreeeing with someone who is becoming more discredited by the day.

cdoke, I will not further participate in a discussion in US history on Autospies. Nor do I presume you want to. I didnt bring it up, and as you pointed out, I didnt argue it. This is an auto site.

Let me stick to what this thread is about.
The original comment was, "If the US decided to fund one of the big 3 in the area of developing a 100% electric car..."
w209w114, the apparent historian, responded, "We all know The U.S. Government will never take on that task. It is against the values it was founded upon."

Now what values are in question here? It really is not important what those values were 200 years ago. Surely you see that as the least important point to this. By bringing it up, you are just throwing a red herring into the mix. The posters here seem to think that we have a govt that does not get involved in propping up American corporate interests. That is the point that is central to this discussion, because in many ways giving billions in handouts to corporations wholly reflects the values of our current govt (not just Bush). The fact that less is done for Detroit than for Big Oil or Agribusiness reflects the the electoral map and the personal obligations and values of specific powerful interests and politicians. But make no mistake, Detroit has gotten their fair share of handouts as well, as I have pointed out repeatedly.

So please do not try to impugn my character or knowledge, even if you meant no harm, by clouding the debate with an academic exercise in US History.

Honestly, had I just said.....
"It does not matter what values this country was founded on because that tells you nothing about the values under which it currently operates,"
instead of,
"You could debate for hours what values this country was founded on, but it would tell you nothing about the values under which it currently operates," we would not even be having this debate.

Clearly my point was to address the current govt, and NOT to discuss history. By focusing on the wrong aspect of my post, you are merely dangling the shiny keys, (which of course w209w114 grasped at).

Who cares, the US Auto Industry has never been able to keep up in terms of technology, finesse, styling, etc. with European and Japanese manufacturers. They are just now getting on the bandwagon, especially GM more than Ford and Chrysler. But it was bound to come out, the US manufacturers were being spoiled with their oversized gas guzzling SUVs to care about putting research into this technology up front.

In 1997 the Fortune 500 corporations recorded best-ever earnings of $325 billion, yet incredibly Uncle Sam doled out nearly $75 billion in taxpayer subsidies.

In 1996 General Electric Co. won 15 grants for $20.1 million. Rockwell International received 39 grants for $25.4 million. Westinghouse Electric Corp. received 14 grants for $26.1 million. Yet each of these companies had profits of at least half a billion dollars that year.

The Commerce Department's Advanced Technology Program is advertized as a job producer. But from 1990-94 the ATP provided more than $250 million to eight firms--Amoco Corp., AT&T, Citicorp, DuPont, General Electric, General Motors, IBM, and Motorola. Over those five years, these firms reduced their total U.S. workforces by 329,000.

source: Cato Institue (not my favorite entity, but hey you wanted facts.)

if it is A CRIME for a gov't to use ALL taxpayers' monies to benefit just a FEW companies (and a strong case can be made that it is or at least SHOULD BE),
then what's been done for toyota AND the detroit trio is just PENNY ANTE stuff.

look at the subsidies the Big Oilys suck out of Uncle SweetTeats!

tax credits. oil depletion allowances. use of u.s. army AND navy AND air force to secure foreing oil sources. etc. etc.

it is NO ACCIDENT the Big Oilys are racking up RECORD PROFITS. (and still, how much did cost to fill up your tank this week???)

and while on the whole corporate welfare issue, look at all the subsidies and contracts the "defense" industry gets too! raytheon, lockheed, boeing (except for "civilian aircraft" which ALSO are subsidized under the 'proviso' they can be commandeered in case of war.)
GE's Electric Boat division makes a product for ZERO customers, other than the the u.s. navy.

and who are we being "defended against" these days?

seems possible. japanese government and industry have always been very tightly linked. for years, MITI virtually managed the industrial sector.

and press is one of the most respected people in automotive, i doubt he'd go around telling outright lies.

Well you know he will have to back it up.

Jim Press is not being respectable. This is shameless. Press is playing a dirty game, that's all. He puts enough seeds of doubt about Toyota and Japan to cause endless controversy, fueling vitriolic responses all over the internet. People get angry with Toyota and (in Press’s dreams) stop buying Priuses and other Toyotas. Then Press comes back around and asks the US govt to do the same thing (that probably never happened in the first place) so that he can get a handout for Chrysler. Shameless!!

THIS IS TOO GOOD!!!!! Press is already backpedalling.

"There have been several news reports today concerning statements made by Chrysler LLC Vice Chairman and President Jim Press on battery development for hybrid vehicles. First of all, Press was not speaking negatively of Toyota.

In a recent interview, he referenced the close cooperation between the Japanese government and Japanese industry. He said the Japanese government strongly supported R & D (research and development) investment in battery development, and the Prius and other Japanese models benefited from that investment in industry.

He cited this as an example of cooperation between government and industry working together on public policy issues. He went on to say that he would like to see similar cooperation in the United States in order to find technological improvements that help give U.S. companies a competitive advantage."

What do y'all have to say now???!!!

I do agree with you that Jim Press must have an agenda or motive to blow the whistle on Toyota. Perhaps to stir up news and try to make Toyota look like an unfair player.

I have nothing against Toyota and praise them for their Green cars and being a leader in efficient, reliable cars. Japanese auto industry has improved the entire auto indutry. But if the statements are true then it is unethical. I would say this to any business.

Japan Gov't takes allot of burden away from its Auto comps (Retirement and medical costs) and other countries can at least learn from this.

"What do y'all have to say now???!!!"

Nothing, relax, nobody took his words as given truth. Even Agent 009 said Press would have to back it up.

In my discussions with you I never said Press was correct, and only addressed the ethical aspect of the situation. Which you seem to support Toyota and the Japanese government on regarless of what the truth is.

Read you own responses w209w114, you and others were practically etching what Press said in stone. (I compiled a few of your gems a few posts up in case you forgot.) 009 has a tendency to play devil's advocate, I get that. He just needs a foil to always call him on it and present the opposing viewpoint. Thats why he seems so unflappable even when he is infuriating others (myself included, natch.) Some of you others however clearly came down on the side of Press and now have egg on your face.

As far as the ethics (my gods, first values, now ethics, oy), Press seems to think it is quite ethical, because the whole point of his diatribe was a thinly veiled request for the US govt to give Chrysler money. And as I have pointed out repeatedly, the US and all other govts seem to have no ethical problem doing just that.

LOL!