Believe It Or Not Diesels Still Can Equal Savings

you mean. diesels are 5.15 per gallon not 5 dollar per gallon?

Even if it was bogus, the perception now is that a Diesel is not worth the added cost of the car plus fuel.

in europe we have higher taxes on petrol than diesel to help Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen sell more cars with diesel engines

The "right" diesel is still a good bargain. It really is close. The price spread between gas and diesel is about the same as the increase in efficiency.

If the prices were closer together or upside down as they have been in the past, it is a no brainer.

Even at this time if the price spread makes the "cents per mile" a push, I still give weight to diesels because they last longer and you never know what fuel price fluctuations are going to do next month.

25-30% more.
WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
I paid $1100 more on a $22,000 VW 10 years ago.
That's 5%
That same car is worth $10,000 now because its diesel, but a gas-engine car with lower miles is $6,000

PURCHASE PRICE 5% more
RESALE PRICE > 50% more

The math is simple ... diesel costs a lot less to own.

"""Europe just doesn't get it."""


No, YOU don't get it, moron.

HUU
EMISSIONS ARE LOWER ON DIESELS PERIOD

Lets talk based on FACTS rather than personal misconceptions.

I'm going to focus on high end cars here (Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc.).

Where I am premium gas is $4.19, diesel is $4.79. That's a 14.3% difference (though that is up from 8% a couple of weeks ago). Pretty much every test I've seen has shown a 30-40% fuel economy bump for diesels. Taking out the fuel cost then yields a 15.7-25.7% savings advantage for the diesel versus premium gas.

Now compare that to a hybrid. The hybrid will likely offer similar 15-25% savings, but the cost of the hybrid is $7-10k more than the gas version. The diesel is $2-3k more than the gas version, putting the hybrid $4-8k in the hole versus the diesel. You also don't lose half the trunk in a diesel the way you do with a hybrid.

Obviously I'd much rather see diesel cost the same or less than regular gas, but the numbers are still very favorable for diesels versus gas or hybrid. The ideal scenario, until electric or alternative fuel vehicles become feasible, would be a diesel hybrid. We don't have those either though. So we'll see how this plays out throughout the year, when the Germans bring all their new diesels over.

Thank You

First Sensible comment i have seen in a long time on this site.

Hybrids are selling more and more. Here in Germany München) i'm surprised to see much more frequently Hybrids comparing even a year ago.I was last week in Switzerland and saw lot of taxi TOYOTA prius.

Here's some REALLY SIMPLE MATH:
DIESEL VEHICLE PRICE: roughly $2k higher (VW or Bemz)
Cost per mile is MUCH LOWER (you'll save from hundreds to thousands of $$$ per year on fuel)
Cost of maintenance: oil-changes and timing belts, but no tune-ups ... save money each year.
RESALE: Get back at least 2x what you paid for the diesel engine when you bought it.

EXAMPLE: (from Craigslist in Seattle)
2001 VW JETTAs with gas engine:
a half dozen cars, all for $10k or less
2001 VE JETTA TDI
a few cars, starting at $13k and up!

When that car was new, the TDI was about $1500 more than the non-turbo gas, and the same price (or less) than the turbo-gas.
But now its 30 - 50% higher in resale value.

PLEASE TRY TO ARGUE AGAINST THE FACTS: DIESEL IS INCREDIBLY CHEAPER THAN GAS TO OWN!

PS: The fuel savings are greater in a luxury car, where the 6-cyl. diesel has the real-world performance of a V8 with the fuel consumption of a 4-cyl.

The US exports some of its diesel production...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN1151397820080211

This article says that some of the price hike in diesel is due to the extra cost of refining it to the required standard for new high tech clean diesel engines. My understanding was that diesel was historically much cheaper to refine that gasoline, almost a by-product, but maybe the new regs. have changed this dynamic?

Seems a coincidence that on the eve of the launch of these high tech diesels from the Europeans that we have this unprecedented hike in price of diesel fuel?

If excess diesel is being exported then it is not domestic demand that is forcing higher prices. The scenario of diesel going even higher than gasoline in the USA should not happen.

And the US imports the "surplus" gasoline from European refineries ... 1 of 5 gallons of US gas is from Europe.
The technical cause of the US diesel pricing is the refineries, which use a process optimized to generate the most gasoline possible, even though crude is burned to create the heat (its called "thermo cracking", I believe).
In Europe, they use a different process called "hydro-cracking" or something, which doesn't require as much energy and also produces more diesel.

But the ROOT CAUSE of the problem in the US is ultra-rich oil companies who won't crack their tight wallets open a crack to build new refineries to produce diesel.
They'd rather create an artificial shortage to drive the costs up to drive diesel sales down.
After all, if everyone bought diesels their sales would drop by 30% (or more), resulting in reduced revenue ... and they aren't stupid!
They are looking out for themselves and their shareholders.
Screw the environment and the public.

Nope, Congress won't allow any more refineries to be built. The last refinery was built in the 70's, and it was by law that no other refineries were built since then.

Why would they block refinery creation?
What happens as the existing ones fall apart?
How much fuel is wasted running refineries pushing 1/2 century old when newer designs are surely more efficient?

The US Gov't seems to be fairly consistent in its apparent stupidity

here's a link to an article where a larger, more luxurious, less aerodymaic BMW 520d got better fuel economy than a Prius, despite beating the Prius in every performance measure (including a whopping 2.7 seconds 0-60). And that was with the testers adding 100 miles of city driving to the trip just to see if they could skew the figures to the advantage of the Prius. Didn't work, the Prius still averaged 40mpg, the 520d averaged 41.9mpg.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/17/toyota-prius-is-a-gas-guzzler-compared-to-the-bmw-520d/

TurboSpyder:

you show me reliability index from US after I show you my from europe
so you should rather use test not from far europe but from US where is comparison between hybrid and diesel:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/126370/article.html

ps: that diesels have worser emissions than petrol it`s obvious , that`s why they have problems to pass california`s emission restrictions that petrols don`t have

The only hybrids that will last in the market will be diesel powered. They're coming soon.
Gasoline-powered cars are a technology that will disappear due to economy and emissions laws.

In fact, even planes are going diesel. The 100-octane fuel that most burn will be illegal if the EPA gets its way, and the new diesel airplane engines are both lower-cost to operate, but also lower-cost to maintain.

Don't mind huu ... he's the official "anti-diesel troll" on Autospies. Will always ignore the facts in favor of some large Japanese car-makers marketing BS.

TurboSpyder: Please consider that emmissions laws were designed to be passable by gas cars, with no consideration for diesels.
If the laws were designed for diesels (With their higher compression ratios -- more NOx, but lower fuel consumption -- lower CO, CO2, etc.) then gas-powered cars wouldn't be able to pass.
The fact is, new diesels can pass tests designed FOR Gas engines, and that is an amazing testament to how low their emissions are!

until petrol and diesel are from petroleum , diesel and petrol cars will coexist becouse in rectification process of petroleum is produced some amount of petrol and diesel . in my opinion future for car engines with diesel cycle is gtl ( gas to liquid ) fuel produced from gas , gtl has length of carbon chains between normal diesel and petrol so it unite the best of petrol and diesel , it has been use by audi tdi in le mans . future for cars with petrol engines may be in VCR ( variable compression ratio ) , HCCI ( Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition ) , lean mixture - then they maybe will have energy effeciency of diesels or even better ( energy effeciency isn`t the same as milage - one galoon diesel has more energy than one galoon petrol by about 15% and of course about 15% more CO2 but CO2 emission isn`t great problem becouse cars produce only 4% of world`s CO2 emission ) .

"If the laws were designed for diesels (With their higher compression ratios -- more NOx, but lower fuel consumption -- lower CO, CO2, etc.) then gas-powered cars wouldn't be able to pass."

CO2 emission isn`t restricted becouse it depends from engine size and power , CO could be easy burn to CO2 . and diesels emit more HC and particulate matter ( PM ) but I know - now with all that catalizators they are california legal .

HUU
The JETTA has the interior space of the Prius, but with a much larger trunk.
And if they depleted more of the earth's rare resources and built it all out of aluminum like the Prius, it would have won the test!
Fortunately for the environment's sake, Prius production is very small.

Please, come out of your cave, leave the house, and experience the real world!

Huu, since you brought up the GS350h, here's some stats for you.

The 535d is just as quick as the GS450h, gets better fuel economy (the GS450h has gotten the same mileage in comparison tests as the better performing, gasoline 535i -- the 535d should better that by 30% or more), and as a bonus, you get to keep the entire trunk instead of the single golfbag-sized space you get with the GS450h. Oh, and it's only expected to cost $3k more than the 535i, instead of $10k more like the GS450h is versus the GS350.

Why don't you just start every post with "I hate German cars"? That way people won't have to bother reading through the rhetoric.

HUU: How can you be a Toyota Fan, an against diesel?
If Toyota stopped selling diesel vehicles, they'd lose over 1/2 their truck sales!

Read this (from a Toyota web-site)
Traditionally, diesel engines provide driving pleasure in a different way than petrol engines. What they lack in output, they make up for in torque. In today's busy traffic, that can be a benefit. However, most diesel engines have the additional handicap that the torque they provide is only available over a small rev-range. Toyota engineers have overcome both the lack of outright power output and the limited usable rev-range, with Toyota diesels producing power that is equivalent to that of many competitor petrol engines with similar displacements. As a result, a driver can hold a gear much longer, without experiencing the sudden drop in power once the ideal rev-range has been exceeded.

Then browse the forums on this site: http://www.toyotadiesel.com

I've owned Toyota diesels in Canada, and I've ridden in Toyota diesels from old beater 4x4 pickups to luxury limousine vans in other parts of the world.
Toyota is HUGE into diesel.

So go ahead and hate diesel as long as you understand that it means hating Toyota at the same time.

I had no problem spotting the work "gimmick".
But I just cleaned my glasses ;)

Hmm, pop a VTECH in a Honda around @ around 7,000 rpms or barely see 3,000rpm in a diesel. Whether any1 likes it or not, acceleration and economy work like magic in a GS450H and its RWD and it's 5 Sec. club.

I can't count the number of V-TECH Civics I've blown away off the line in my '98 Beetle TDI. After a while, humiliating rice-rockets becomes tedious.
They can't come close to the acceleration of a turbo-diesel launched correctly!
(its tricky though, because the diesels tend to spin the tires easily if you aren't careful ... tossing the stock Michelins in favor of sticky Yokohamas cured that problem, but resulted in stretched and broken motor-mount bolts due to the extreme stresses on the drive-train ... and I still averaged 53 MPG consistently)

"They can't come close to the acceleration of a turbo-diesel launched correctly!"

and you must change to 2nd gear about 20mph . 60mph in 3rd or even 4th in some diesels .

torque isn`t important and really power matters - formula one engines have less torque than volkswagen 2.0 TDI diesel engine but many times more torque on the wheels becouse of higher revs - gear ratios may be lower . that`s why cars with similar power not torque have similar acceleration , max speed etc
that`s physics

Huu76 is picking his reading carefully to ensure he gets biased articles that are working to destroy the image of biofuels.

Biodiesel has a net energy balance of 3.5 units of output for every unit of input (highest of any transportation fuel), while most of the edible content of such plants are still used for human and animal consumption. Biodiesel reduces lifecycle CO2 emissions by 78% in cars that already emit fewer levels of CO, HCs, and VOCs than comparable gas cars without adding the high-energy renewable fuel that also does not reduce fuel economy, while simultaneously reducing the environmental impact. This leaves only PM and NOx emitted more by previous-edition diesels that had to be designed to run on dirty fuel (500 ppm diesel fuel). The new, cleaner diesels will reduce PM by over 90% and NOx by over 70%. Adding B20 to the mix reduces emissions for such diesels lower than comparable gas guzzlers in nearly every category and reduces petroleum consumption by 50% or more.

Just because recent diesel fuel prices run a premium is no reason to discount all the long-term benefits of bringing this technology to the states.

Not all European countries tax gasoline more than diesel fuel. The U.K. has always taxed the fuels equally, yet diesel, new car market penetration is over 40%.