INFINITI Wants Blood – The Plan to Beat BMW, Mercedes and Lexus Performance Divisions

INFINITI Wants Blood – The Plan to Beat BMW, Mercedes and Lexus Performance Divisions
Product planners at Infiniti are aware of the voids that exist in their current lineup.  The G35/G37 does double duty against both the BMW 3 and 5 Series, and the M35/M45 serves as the current large car competing with the BMW 5 Series as well as the Mercedes E-Class, Lexus GS and Jaguar XF.  The FX35 & FX50, EX35 and QX56 do a good of competing with the sport utility offerings of BMW, Lexus and Mercedes, however there is still a void in the lineup planners are getting closer to fill as new engines and platforms are coming to market.

The void we are talking about, a competitor to the M cars from BMW, the AMG cars from Mercedes-Benz and the new kid on the block, the F car from Lexus.

AutoSpies.com has not missed this void either, and bring you 2 concepts that will bring to market a viable player in the factory tuned specialty market.  A profitable segment that Infiniti wants to be a part of.

Currently within the Nissan/Infiniti lineup two platforms exist which would help defray a large portion of the development cost, and allow Infiniti the opportunity to field cars capable of running with cars bearing the letters M, AMG and f.

G50s
The Infiniti G50s sports sedan and coupe is a flared fender monster motor variation of the current G37 sedan and coupe.  In the G50s setup, the new 5.0 liter 390hp V8 from the just introduced FX50 is shoehorned into the engine bay of the G body giving us a 400hp+ car that based would run 0-60 in less than 5 seconds, and that could blast through the ¼-mile under 13 seconds nipping at the heals of the M3, C63 and the IS-f.



For those of you who doubt the viability or feasibility of such an animal, consider this, the FX50 is based on the FM (front midship) platform, the same platform as the current G37.  Only minor modification is necessary to allow the G to accept the V8 of the FX, and with enhanced breathing and exhaust, the 5.0 V8 can easily be massaged to over 400hp.

The beauty of such a proposal from Infiniti is given the size of the G37 sedan, this car could serve dual roles competing not only with the smaller M3, but with the M5 as well given the fact that in terms of size, the G is closer to the BMW 5 Series than it is the 3 series.

And as if that isn’t enough, consider the second proposal…

Q-GT
The much talked about 4-door version of Nissan’s GT-R.  Imagine a car that drives off the showroom floor capable of beating ALL offerings from BMW, Mercedes and Lexus in terms of acceleration and performance.  This factory 4-door will be capable of running with names like Ferrari and Lamborghini; of course you couldn’t bring 3 friends along for the ride in either the Ferrari or Lamborghini like you could with the Q-GT from Infiniti.

And Infiniti knows they wouldn’t have a tough time at all selling either vehicle, and the exciting thing is the vast majority of engineering work has already been completed making time to market relatively short.

The biggest hurdle now is deciding which concept would best make its mark in the marketplace.  The advantage to the G50s concept is cost.  The components and driveline system for the Q-GT is extremely expensive.  Fitting the G with the 5.0 V8 would be the more economical route, and would bring to market a vehicle similar in size to the M5 and E63 that is priced comparably to the M3, C63 and the IS-f.

Secondly, but just as important is the establishment of the performance orientated division.  Lexus took the plunge last year by introducing their “f” division, Infiniti needs to establish their skunk works division and start developing a brand name that people lust after.  Nissan currently has the Nismo division, but drawing from that heritage has the potential to create a down market persona for a brand that Infiniti wants to be thought of as world class.  This is an area that is open for discussion, Infiniti does not have a huge heritage to fall back on, and as such suggestions are accepted as to what to call their performance division.

Infiniti has all the makings of becoming a true player across a full spectrum of vehicle offerings, will it pull the trigger and bring to market one of these two sports sedans, and if so which one should it be.  Does the economical engineering cost of the G50s win out over the more expensive Q-GT, or should the Q-GT be the halo car for Infiniti like the GT-R is for Nissan?

Or should they both be brought to market?

We PROPOSE, you DECIDE.

2008 AutoSpies.com Father's Day and Grad's Gift Guide


DaHarderDaHarder - 6/7/2008 12:54:37 AM
+11 Boost
Infiniti Is Well On There Way To Matching BMW Driving Dynamics, and Has Far Surpassed Them In Overall Value/Luxury/Performance For The Dollar...

Their Current Lineup Easily Represents Some Of The Finest Performance/Luxury Values Currently Available - And This Will Only Get Better In The Future


blueshirts0819blueshirts0819 - 6/7/2008 8:53:12 AM
+3 Boost
"kthor", when I was shopping for a new sports sedan I was looking at a G35x Infiniti and BMW 335x. I don't see any of your logic of "BMW COSTS more because you GET more", all I see is you pay more because of the badge or LOOK "I have a BMW".

yes, the handling and performance is better on the BMW but only marginal between the two but not worth 10k more.

Oh yeah, by the way, I used to have a 325ci, that POS broke down three times and only the third time they admit there is a ignition coil problem so I don't see any value there at all.


bigTYMEbigTYME - 6/7/2008 4:06:41 PM
0 Boost
Hey buddy, in my book Infiniti has passed Lexus and is inching closer to BMW.


ghosthunterghosthunter - 6/7/2008 8:08:01 PM
+1 Boost
excuse me, Mr kthorkthor, exactly what "More" do you get when you buying a BMW (sorry, i mean leasing).
There are vehicles that in BMW lineup doesn't exist in infiniti's lineup. however, for 3 series and G, or X5 and FX, i really failed to see the "more" factor, other than a brand imagine (which could be everything or nothing depending on the buyer, but i guess it would be a great insult to compare you, who is suppose to be a true auto enthusiast, to the hundreds of thousands of high school/college teenagers who are leasing BMW for the brand image and nothing else)



DoctorInfinitiDoctorInfiniti - 6/8/2008 12:17:00 AM
0 Boost
all this 'chatter' speaks volumes about how little the general masses know about that which is "Infiniti."

Infiniti leaders still stiffen at the sound of ill spent finances, from echoes of the past. Their path is not a hurried one...but moreso, the correct one.
Product line confirmations already confirm 4 more models to be introduced before 2010 !! Don't forget the convertible G-37 is coming March 2009,...not to mention the hardtop coupe sporting AWD 'X' moniker, very soon !!
The QX56 AWD is being downsized in Japan as we speak, and will set the remaining survivors & players in the 8 passenger market on their heads with the new 2010 QX as THE most luxurious,advanced,sporty 'clean diesel' hybrid ever concocted.
The Q-GT will come,....but as,....are you ready?

A 2012 hydrogen fuelcell/full electric Hybrid,...along with hybrids at every model offering ( for a price !!)

Yes,....say what you will about Infiniti as a competitor to this firm and then that one,....but ask Infiniti who they think they are, and you will hear:
We sell the nicest,sportiest, least expensive luxury car in every category we compete in,....nuff said.

Lexus is fat and bloated,....M.Benz is suffering from narcissitic personality disorder, BMW thinks they want to be like Damieler's,... And everyone else are just also rans.

Volume isn't the only way to turn a healthy profit. These boys and girls at Infiniti aren't the same class that nearly went down the 'turlet' 10 years ago,...
This organization flows with power,...and this power comes from knowledge. This knowledge is what people want in a tier one class automobile, yet it is reasonable,practical, less oustentatious, but highly refined.
This group can go a different way than car companies before them.
WATCH AND LEARN

Bonzai !!


answeranswer - 6/9/2008 2:39:45 PM
-1 Boost
Kthor always has to make an appearance whenever BMW is knocked or something else is seen as a legit competitor to the Bavarian brand.




goochgooch - 6/9/2008 3:40:33 PM
0 Boost
DoctorInfiniti, your post would be okay minus the spelling errors. And that's being charitable. Banzai!


Peyton18Peyton18 - 6/7/2008 12:56:45 AM
+1 Boost
and quite the turn around from 7 or 10 years ago I might say...


pchera01pchera01 - 6/7/2008 12:59:49 AM
-1 Boost
i know it iscomming, they will take time and will do it good too


BostonBiosafetyBostonBiosafety - 6/7/2008 5:21:16 AM
-8 Boost
How much time do they need, Infinity has been around for a long time and if you count Datsun and Nissan in the mix...they do not have an excuse. Don't fool yourself, Infinity does not match BMW in quality.


Agent001Agent001 - 6/7/2008 1:01:10 AM
+14 Boost
Why waste their time on a next gen Q45 when they could build THEIR version of the Aston Rapide/Porsche Panamera/BMW CS and do what they do best?

Undercutting the key competitors with a car that's 95% of theirs for a lot less.

This would be the perfect scenario...AND give them more exclusivity and cachet for their other cars

001


dlindlin - 6/7/2008 2:41:14 AM
+3 Boost
Agreed.

Although I do consider an "N"(Nurburgring, Nismo, anyone?) division a priority, which should also be more cost effective.



abcdabcd - 6/7/2008 3:06:21 AM
-2 Boost
no . they shouldn`t build their version of another existing car . we have enough coupe sedans , suvs , savs etc. i also think they don`t need nex generation Q45 , FX50 may be their "flagship" . why every premium brand must have the same lineup ? this is stupid . they should have their own lineup - though partially .


LUXCAR32LUXCAR32 - 6/7/2008 1:10:17 AM
+8 Boost
Q-GT running with Ferrari's and Lamborghini's? I think thats a little extreme and would kind of be like the VW Phaeton in that it is a brand known for a certain product, they can't just jump into a completely different stratosphere! Honestly, who would choose an infiniti over a ferrari? just like who would chose a phaeton over an A8, S-class, 7 series, or LS. Now a competitor for that segment is what infiniti should really be looking at if they want a flagship. Babysteps infiniti, babysteps.


BJS470BJS470 - 6/7/2008 1:14:28 AM
+2 Boost
Sounds Sick...Hope to see something in the higher end performance range in the future from infiniti. Anything they come up with should be a success.


Maverick2020Maverick2020 - 6/7/2008 1:18:36 AM
+7 Boost
A G50 would be pretty appealing. It's already a terrific vehicle.


LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/7/2008 1:26:22 AM
+3 Boost
i think they desperately need an S class, 7 series, LS competitor before they waste their resources on this small niche of vehicles


_43LE_43LE - 6/7/2008 1:30:27 AM
+6 Boost
I agree. Infiniti is an up and coming great luxury car maker. They have the attitude and desire. Back in the mid-ninties I'm sure almost everyone thought that they were dead. A real competitor to the LS/S/7/A8 would be more welcomed.


EL34EL34 - 6/7/2008 1:40:37 AM
-16 Boost
Infiniti needs a car called the Q-Tip.

All thier cars look like one :-/


_43LE_43LE - 6/7/2008 1:47:59 AM
+12 Boost
Yes, I could see that, if I were on acid.


blueshirts0819blueshirts0819 - 6/7/2008 8:56:19 AM
+12 Boost
EL34, maybe you should call youself Q-tip since that is the size of your brain.


Htay7500Htay7500 - 6/7/2008 3:44:58 PM
+1 Boost
"All thier cars look like one :-/"

I don't know, BMWs 5 and 7 series would be best described as one. and I don't see how that looks better than what infiniti has.




NISSANINFINITINISSANINFINITI - 6/8/2008 6:12:55 AM
+1 Boost
How dare you compare Acura to anything but Honda...the are on a boat headed downstream! You need to wash your mouth out with soap until they get their act together again!


EvoAudiEvoAudi - 6/7/2008 2:29:45 AM
+2 Boost
Start with a flagship then go from there, Infiniti needs a "focal point" to center its brand around. MB's is the S, BMW has the 7, etc. Currently their main car is the G35/7. without a flagship they are just another Acura, a brand that isn't luxury, but isn't econobox stuff either, just sitting there in limbo unsure of what it wants to be.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 6/7/2008 11:41:59 AM
+7 Boost
BMW's "focal point" is most definitely the 3 Series, not the 7 Series.


zyrlzyrl - 6/7/2008 3:05:20 AM
-3 Boost
if their v8 would take oj i want one.


ChipChip - 6/7/2008 5:15:07 AM
+5 Boost
G50s sounds appealing, but I agree that they desperately need a flagship.

Let us not forget how cool the reborn Q45 was when it entered the market in 2002. Remember the unique headlights and beautiful interior (with the bird on the dash in the advertisements) Too bad that car drove like a yacht and had terrible handling and resale value. And it's styling was a little too grandpa for most enthusiast's tastes.

Well things have changed at Infiniti, and if they can come up with great products like the G, M and FX (The EX is a misfire IMO) then there is simply no excuse that they don't have a big bodied flagship sedan. With the advancements they've made in quality and performance, a new Q should be a million times better than the last model. It's as if they're not confident because they've failed in the past.

If we are to consider them a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus competitor, then they have to offer a status car that shapes the rest of the brand. Period.


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 6/7/2008 10:06:32 AM
+1 Boost
competing at the lower end where customers are alot more open to new products especially Japanese car buyers isnt the same as competing in a Prestige driven segment where Lexus and Europeans rule. Infiniti doesnt have the prestige yet to challenge an S class, 7 series, XJ, or LS which is why they are using the value card, when Infiniti can further distanced itself from Nissan and can create cars that dont have to be alot cheaper than the competition for them to sell than I would suggest a flagship sedan otherwise maybe a variant of the GTR


BostonBiosafetyBostonBiosafety - 6/7/2008 5:42:19 AM
+4 Boost
99% of the people that I know who can afford to buy what they want will choose BMW, Mercedes..etc. over any luxury clone Asian vehichles. These cars are not even on their radar. It just doesn't matter if a LuxClone has better track time and 1/4 mile times.


flozel1flozel1 - 6/7/2008 12:21:40 PM
-14 Boost
Well maybe 99% of the people you know are poor. The real rich people consider Lexus the 2nd most prestigous brand after Porsche.


flozel1flozel1 - 6/7/2008 9:44:57 PM
-8 Boost
...and that's a fact.


JUGNUJUGNU - 6/7/2008 6:10:54 AM
-1 Boost
I think G50 is the safe and quick route. As we can see they have the car(G), platform(FM) and Engine(5.0 V8) ready, even the all new 7 spped gearbox. Just small modifications are required i think and u have M3 and IS-F competitor.

Good luck Ininfiti and bring it soon. BTW i think instaead of naming it Q50 some different division(Badge) would be better. Like BMW M or Lexus F.

JUGNU


Agent00JAgent00J - 6/7/2008 8:32:25 AM
0 Boost
But what would that badge be?


NItePhireNItePhire - 6/7/2008 5:50:24 PM
+1 Boost
BlackFin if Cadillac aint using it anymore...


MunichRobMunichRob - 6/7/2008 9:00:06 AM
+1 Boost
It's amazing how much of a threat Infiniti has become to BMW on the performance side of things over just a few years. Aside from Porsche, I feel that Audi & Infiniti are the only companies than can out-do BMW at what they do best in this category.


BMW4me4everBMW4me4ever - 6/7/2008 11:12:16 AM
-3 Boost
what cars does either company have in their stables that out do BMW in performance? Acceleration, handling, braking .... please enlighten me.

G35 is nowhere near the 335. Heck in regards to driving and response thru steering and body roll it doesnt even do well in regards to the 328.

G37 vs 335coupe or 135 coupe is not close in performance, braking a=or handling.

The closest one they have is the M45 which is almost up to par with the 2008 550.

Other than that, Infiniti has a long way to go to get close to a BMW in regards to performance.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 6/7/2008 11:25:30 PM
+7 Boost
He said that Audi and Infiniti are the only companies that CAN. Read! He didn't say they already had!


NISSANINFINITINISSANINFINITI - 6/8/2008 6:18:05 AM
+2 Boost
AMEN SAY IT AGAIN!!!!!


PerformanceGuyPerformanceGuy - 6/7/2008 9:29:17 AM
+5 Boost
Infiniti is really stepping up to the plate. They make some amazing looking and performing vehicles.


VISOVISO - 6/12/2008 8:59:35 PM
+1 Boost
An R8 beats anything BMW has to offer, the new RS6 runs over anything the M5 or M6 can muster, the current RS4 holds its own quite well against BMW. Your quite ignorant, arrogant or plain stupid or all three bmwdr to think overwise.


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 6/7/2008 10:03:36 AM
0 Boost
why is Nissan simply focusing on performance in the LUXURY category this has been my problem with them for awhile not that they make bad cars but saying a car is better than a luxury performance sedan because it offers alot of the performance is backwards when they can improve refinement, and overall quality in comparison to Lexus, BMW, and others than they will be part of the class. Otherwise anyone can stretch a sports car into several platforms and make sport sedans, and sport crossovers it doesnt make them Premium cars but what they are sports sedans, and crossovers


VISOVISO - 6/12/2008 9:01:13 PM
+1 Boost
Sorry bmwdr, I ment bmw4me4ever guy.


BMW4me4everBMW4me4ever - 6/7/2008 10:52:56 AM
-5 Boost
lmao ... infiniti doing what? They are not even close , but whatever they are smoking I want some. Michael taylor i think has been selling his Lexus cool-ade to the folks at Infiniti.


tkindredtkindred - 6/7/2008 11:14:07 AM
+5 Boost
What is the obsession about German cars? To me there is not much difference between the mid range luxury cars. What makes a German car so much better? I mean, really? The materials used in the engine block, heads, crank, etc.? The materials in the suspension, driveline? The craftmanship? Are they handmade or something? Or does it just come down to the interior quality? Which to me, there is not much of a difference there either. I think many BMW lovers are in love with the brand. They are great cars but are they that much better than say an Infiniti or Lexus? And those who say people that buy a BMW are those who are concerned with the price then why don't they step up to the true luxury cars in the next price segment? Because they are concerned with price.


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 6/7/2008 11:26:54 AM
0 Boost
its interior quality, and the combination of Luxury vs Performance not just performance or a poor compromise of both in the name of Value....Lexus doesnt really have this problem they are for the most part very close in price to the German Rivals, and dont play some "hey I'm cheaper" card to compete while I'm no Lexus fan I think they are the best representation of a Japanese Luxury brand because there is enough distance quality wise between their Lexus and Toyota offerings to warrant a price difference not really in the Acura and Infiniti variants which are still playing that "hey I'm cheaper card"


BMW4me4everBMW4me4ever - 6/7/2008 11:31:49 AM
0 Boost
everything about the BMW is better in regards to performance vs the Lexus or Infiniti. Balance, which is very expensive to get a car to near 50/50 weight balance. Everyone knows that the best handling cars in the world are cars that have a near perfect weight balance. Which way the weight of a car favors can affect body roll, body flexing, understeer, oversteer, acceleration and braking. BMW, Porsche spend lots of money trying to perfect the perfect performance cars. That is why they set the standards for which everyone wants to compete with. When is the last time you saw a magazine article that wasnt aimed squarely at BMW in regards to performance sedan or coupe tests by another manufacturer.

BMW's suspension is among the best when it comes to how it transfers energy and communicates thru steering. Suspension is very important in performance. Here is what you need to do: Drive a 335 sedan vs a G35 sedan over the same course. The route should vary in speed and include some higher speed handling and braking. You will notice how drastically the balance and suspensions of the two cars vary. then include and feel the difference and response of the engines when entering and leaving turns. It is drastic.


2JayZee2JayZee - 6/7/2008 12:56:51 PM
-5 Boost
Yeah, but this class of car is not only about sport. Get off your own kool-aid


HeyhuubHeyhuub - 6/7/2008 1:12:58 PM
-3 Boost
A Lotus Exige has a 34/66 weight balance, a Porsche GT3 has a 36/64 weight balance.
These cars handle better then any BMW in production.


dhawk04dhawk04 - 6/9/2008 10:52:05 AM
+3 Boost
I have read all of these posts and it makes me laugh to read some of the opinions. So I must induce you ladies & gents with the facts:
1) An Infiniti cost less to own than a BMW long term. After 50k on the odometer hold on to your wallet. Y do you think that free maint. Runs out at 50k cause it would cost BMW a truck load of money.
2) An Infiniti is more reliable. That is a fact there is no evidence to refute this. And don’t come with the “ I never had any problems with my BMW” dam it that is just YOU. Cause mine is 02’ 540i Sport name the Ultimate Mechanic Machine!
3) Infiniti G35/G37 is the closes competitor to the 3 series period. I just drove a 328i and it all that refined.

And lastly for the record The G,M,FX have come so close and have even beaten BMW at there on game. These vehicles cost lest to purchase and own over from 0-100k miles. They are more reliable as well. These are facts, not opinions! In closing I do agree that a BMW does handle slightly better and in the case of the 335 has more power than the G35, but the average drive is not going to push his/her car to the handling limits. The people I see driving both drive pretty conservative. So why not get the most bang for your buck and purchase some good ole Japanese reliability from Infiniti?



tkindredtkindred - 6/7/2008 11:15:58 AM
0 Boost
I meant to say "And those who say people that buy a BMW are NOT those who are concerned with the price then why don't they step up to the true luxury cars in the next price segment? Because they are concerned with price." Don't kid yourself, money matters in everything for 99% of the buying public.


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 6/7/2008 6:35:49 PM
+1 Boost
or they didnt want a bigger car, it was a better fit for there driving style, they use logic instead of I have to impress my neighbors.....in fact many people could careless about many things enthusiasts on here do there are plenty of people driving Camrys, Accords, Malibus, and others that can afford a 5 or e class, if they wanted everyone isnt into luxury cars. Thats like the guy that drives a mustang Gt because he loves mustang not because its all he could afford. What a ignorrant theory that a persons wealth is based on how far up in a line of cars they will go........


tkindredtkindred - 6/7/2008 11:50:32 AM
0 Boost
I am a little skeptical that there is that much of a difference between cars in the "mid range" price segment. In my opinion if I am shopping in the "mid range" I also go for value because "mid range" cars are, well, "mid range". They are all mass produced cars coming off an assembly line and to me none of them are truly that distinct. To me it is like comparing Applebees to Chilis. McDonald's, Burger King being the economy cars. Applebees, Chilis being the mid range luxury cars. The first group is definitely better but is still franchise like the second group.

I wonder how many people actually take cars apart, rebuild them, etc, to know what they are actually made out of or how they are built?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 6/7/2008 11:38:12 AM
+3 Boost
And Audi, because Audi has had a performance division for no less than 16 years before Lexus, or if you consider the urQuattro a performance car, then it's been 28 years, because the Quattro was produced right up to a year before the original RS2 was introduced.

Anyway, I've been waiting for Infiniti to do this. Can't wait for the results.


HeyhuubHeyhuub - 6/7/2008 1:14:59 PM
+1 Boost
If you don't count the quattro even then Audi had the S2 and S4 before the RS2 in 1989.
But ofcourse the quattro is the true forefather.


jasaerojasaero - 6/7/2008 11:46:52 AM
-4 Boost
Why no mention of Cadillac in this article. The new CTS-V could be the car they need to beat anyhow when this comes out.


jasaerojasaero - 6/7/2008 12:03:14 PM
+3 Boost
I really think Infiniti and Cadillac BOTH need TRUE S-class/7-series competitors SOON though if they want to lure any significant number of German mark buyers.


jasaerojasaero - 6/7/2008 12:04:36 PM
0 Boost
Maybe even a car priced against S-class, but benchmarked more toward Bentley or Rolls in material and features.


Maverick2020Maverick2020 - 6/7/2008 11:59:28 AM
+4 Boost
If Infiniti does a G50, I hope they don't go the boy racer route that Lexus did with the IS-F. I don't doubt that the IS-F has some serious muscle, but it looks silly, compared to the more subdued M3 and C63.


SteveLSteveL - 6/7/2008 3:22:07 PM
+1 Boost
I agree with jasaero. I think Cadillac is already better than the Lexus and they are right on BMW's tail. Maybe most of you are all just comparing German brands so they do not look bad compared to the American/Cadillac.


VISOVISO - 6/7/2008 8:44:49 PM
+2 Boost
Maybe so, but you are exaggerating a bit don't you think? First of all, Cadillac is not a global brand. To run with BMW and the like (Audi, MB) you need to be a global brand with a namesake in most markets. Cadillac is not even close. Then you have to look at the competitive nature of the brand - motorsport participation and the like. This allows the brand to transfer technology and innovation to the market place such as Audi. Then it's all about brand culture. The Germans have a rabid following among their respective enthusiasts and are willing to throw it down anywhere on the planet to prove it. These are just some of the ideals of a marquee. Acura, Infiniti, and to certain degree Lexus do not have this. Jaguar lost this long time ago and needs to rebuild this. Unitl Jag races and wins, it does not deserve Tier 1 Status. They haven't done anything in the last 30 years or so.


valhallakeyvalhallakey - 6/7/2008 6:31:24 PM
+2 Boost
I sure hope they do both. Personally right now BMW is the one for me. Having spent 3 years in Germany it is interesting to see how they are tested everyday on the Autobahns and back roads of Bavaria and Germany as a whole. They have to be capable of handling that environment day in and day out. Also BMW has years of experience in making everything feel right, the suspension, the handling, the feel through the wheel and the seat. However I hope everyone keeps trying to be BMW as this kind of competition only makes things better for everyone. A few years back I was seriously considering a G35 coupe but after driving it decided on a BMW M5. Still I like good cars no matter who or where they are built. Loved the old 240Z and 70 Z28 I had. Wish I still had them!


StarStar - 6/7/2008 7:28:26 PM
-5 Boost
What's with this ridiculous titles like "Infiniti slaps BMW" or "Infiniti wants blood"? Infiniti is nowhere near BMW or Mercedes and like others said nowhere near even... Lexus.
Why so much fuss about a mediocre(at best)car company like Infiniti? Did they ever build a remarkable car? No. How can somebody imagine that Infiniti could actually build a real competitor to cars like M3 or C63 AMG when their "bread and butter" car is the pathetic G37. You can deboost me all you want but that's not going to change the reality. Infiniti cars lack refinement. If they would wear a Nissan badge nobody would mistaken them for a luxury car. Yes, they offer more horsepower per dollar than a luxury German car, but so is Pontiac. So, what YOU see as "value" might be just a hyped up lower quality car. Now go ahead, deboost me.


_43LE_43LE - 6/7/2008 10:11:46 PM
0 Boost
Infiniti M45 vs BMW 550i

"The M45 prevailed for two big reasons. First, there is its character. The logbook commentary seemed to favor the Infiniti for its eagerness — a light steering touch with good feedback, brisk turn-in, quick transitions, a general sense of being quick on its feet that made the Bimmer's responses seem a tad heavy and, well, Teutonic."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/sedans/
faster_horses_comparison_test+page-5.html


dhawk04dhawk04 - 6/9/2008 11:03:37 AM
0 Boost
Hey Star could you hate a little more you obviously no nothing about cars. This whole refinement word is an opinion not a fact. It it is subjective to each person you have no way of measuring refinement. But you know what it doesn't matter what I or anyone says you are conveniced that BMW has the best cars in the world so i just really wasted my time. But Give the G cars credit they are dam good cars.


StarStar - 6/9/2008 4:05:05 PM
+2 Boost
I never said BMWs are the greatest cars in the world. All I said is that Infiniti is nowhere near BMW.


tkindredtkindred - 6/7/2008 8:08:59 PM
0 Boost
I think it is funny how people try to make BMW seem so elite. It is a middle of the pack car company. Where do you think BMW gets all their parts from to build their cars? You think it is some elite manufacture who specializes on only making BMW parts? The companies that supply BMW with their engine parts, chassis parts, interior parts probably supply to other car companies as well. You think BMW makes their own pistons, rods, brakes, wheels, tires, seats, etc.?

Also, some of you guys say the BMW handles like nothing else and that the interior is so refined. I can throw $2k at most any rear wheel car and make it handle better than any BMW. Even an old Datsun. I could also spend a couple grand upgrading the interior too. Hell, I could through in a top notch stereo system, aftermarket wheels, tires, etc, and still have money left over on what I saved buying the Infiniti.


goochgooch - 6/9/2008 3:52:22 PM
0 Boost
Quite simply, no you can't.


tkindredtkindred - 6/7/2008 8:17:47 PM
0 Boost
What some of you also forget that money matters a lot in car buying decisions. Even more today. If not there would still be gas guzzling SUV's clogging the road. The economy is not going to get better anytime soon either. So, if most people had to make a choice on two cars with very similar performance but one cost a heck of a lot less most would give the cost savings some serious consideration. The "BMW" name is only worth so much of a premium for those looking for a "name". Infiniti's strategy of offering great performance at a value is a good one.

And for those who really know cars will give credit where it is do. Nissan has always made some very nice motors. That has always been their speciality.


tkindredtkindred - 6/7/2008 8:43:12 PM
+1 Boost
Bmwdrvr, I think your comment above is partially true.

"What a ignorrant theory that a persons wealth is based on how far up in a line of cars they will go........"

The few wealthy people I know drive ordinary cars. That is how they became wealthy. They look for value. They might even drive a Honda, Chevy, etc.

But I think mostly what BMW is is a middle of the pack car company for middle class to upper middle class people who want to feel like they are buying an elite type car when actually they are buying a heavily mass produced vehicle.

My image of true car enthusiasts is someone who likes Ferraris, Austin Martins, Lambos, Alfas, old classics like the 60's Vette, Shelby Cobra, Mercedes gullwing ,etc. To me those are the real special type cars.
People who are truly wealthy might have a car like this sitting in their garage but do not use it as a daily driver because they do not have to look wealthy, they are.

Infiniti, Lexus, BMW are all middle of the pack mass produced cars. To make it seem like BMW is untouchable sounds funny to me.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 6/7/2008 11:24:28 PM
+2 Boost
That might be true of places where wealthy people are scarce, but in largely upper-class areas like my own, most people don't drive ordinary cars. They don't all drive super-expensive cars like Ferraris and Maybachs, but they drive BMWs, Benzes, Lexuses, Audis and Infinitis. The cars mentioned here.


goochgooch - 6/9/2008 3:58:45 PM
+1 Boost
Your image of "true" car enthusiasts is of either rich people or guys who managed to hold on to their old cars long enough for them to become "classic." C'mon.
It's cool for you to feel BMW is a middle of the road car company. But it's not cool that you didn't point out that a helluva lot of other companies are trying to make their cars ride and drive like those from the Werke.
In reading your posts, it's obvious you have a thing against Bimmers. Again, it's your opinion and it's cool. But let's not pretend that the 3-Series is not one of the most copied cars on the road. I bought a BMW because it does exactly what I want it to do: look good, goes quickly and smoothly, handles great and gives an over-the-road feel unmatched at its price. Hell, if Daewoo made a car that felt this good and had so much history behind it, I guarantee you they'd have a waiting list of buyers.
But I get it: the Infinitis are great. Fortunately, so are the benchmark BMWs.


JMB1013JMB1013 - 6/7/2008 9:47:02 PM
+2 Boost
Both models have a huge amount of promise. I'm not sure if a 4-door GT-R would serve as a means to jack up the price of future Infinitis; if so, I would be pretty aggravated. Diminishing the price margin with the German "counterparts" would cause me to personally reconsider. I loved the new G35 when I drove it, but I wouldn't be pleased to see the price tag increase.

It would be ironic and hilarious if a Q-GT, or whatever, beat the LF-A to the market.


strafe1strafe1 - 6/7/2008 11:14:53 PM
+3 Boost
tkindred, you really don't understand how the "prestigous" carmakers became prestigous, do you? Being the best requires hard work, success on and off the track, a long and dedicated history of achievement, among other things. Yes, BMW's, MB's, Porsches, Audi's are engineered better than Infinity. And though the company is improving in materials, performance and design, it is no where near the status achieved by the Germans.
You comment about bang for the buck as if no other factors should be considered. The visceral feeling of sitting in and driving an established performance car from a proven manufacturer is appreciated by true car enthusiasts, which you don't seem to embrace. If BMW and MB and the like are middle of the pack, then Infinity is low end. You cannot equate Infinity to the Germans. Infinity is working on it and may get there. But not yet.


tkindredtkindred - 6/8/2008 12:37:12 AM
-1 Boost
Building a couple of cars from the ground up, helping design a race car in college, being a member of Society of Automotive Engineers, Driving cars from all sorts of car makers in all sorts of different countries, including the Autobahn, many, many times. Having collected years of Automotive magazines from the major publishers and buying import magazines. Maybe I may know a little about cars.

So "prestige" sounds like a marketing term to me. I know what makes a Ferrari, Porsche 911 Turbo, etc, special. But not a BMW.


tkindredtkindred - 6/8/2008 12:45:07 AM
0 Boost
Oh, if you really want to read about cars join SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), and download tech articles and subscribe to their magazine. Then you see who the suppliers are to the auto manufactures. You can read in very technical detail about engines, transmissions, suspensions, etc.


tkindredtkindred - 6/8/2008 1:01:50 AM
0 Boost
It would be interesting to take a survey. But I think truly wealthy people drive ordinary cars to work, the store, etc. I have known truly wealthy people driving Hondas, Chevys, Pontiacs, etc. They do not drive Infiniti, Lexus, BMW's, etc.

Here is an article from Forbes talking about what vehicles truly wealthy people drive and they ain't BMW's. They either go very sensible or true luxury. Not in between where BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, are. Those are for the middle class trying for the status.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17534426/
http://www.forbesautos.com/advice/toptens/billionaire/01-billionaires.html

Just picked this off a website.

"Poor people's lives revolve around doing things that make them feel important and good for the moment. They are very short-term thinkers. For example, poor people believe it is important to drive a "showy" vehicle that is worth less and less every day - even if it is difficult for them to make the expensive payments."


strafe1strafe1 - 6/8/2008 12:28:02 PM
+2 Boost
You have changed the focus from automotive pedigree to what rich people drive. Who cares what rich people, or poor people for that matter, drive. This isn't about how to become wealthy by buying inexpensive cars and saving money towards retirement. How people spend and save and accumulate wealth is their business...and has no bearing on the quality of these cars.
I have no idea how you can profess all the "experience" and "knowledge" you have and NOT see what makes BMW's and the like special. Prestige is not just one tier. There are levels of prestige, luxury, performance, etc. The exoctics are Ferrari's, Lambo's, and many other limited production vehicles. Just because MB's and BMW's are mass produced like Infinity's, does not make them equally prestigous, or luxurious, or even mechanically/dynanically on par. If you cannot see or appreciate the difference between these vehicles, stick to commenting on subjective topics like how to accumulate wealth and such. It is a fact that BMW and Mercedes have more "status" on the world's stage. It is a fact that Infinity does not have a car that can even compete with a top end BMW or Mercedes. They are developing for sure, and beginning to compete fairly well with the lower end Mercs and BMW's. Just because 2 cars share parts from the same manufacturer do not make them equal.
By the way, in response to your initial comment, yes, some of the cars (AMG's) have hand built engines by a single individual, road tested by the builder before shipment. Yes, the craftsmanship is thereby better. Yes, the materials many times better in the form of carbon fiber, ceramics, and light weight metals. Yes, higher performance cams are used as well. Pretty much everything is relatively upgraded...something you should already know given your background. Maybe it saves a few pounds, maybe a few tenths, maybe a slightly better feel.
If this were an appliance blog, you most certainly would be telling me that the Whirlpool fridge and stove should replace my Sub-Zero and Viking appliances. (Just kidding, I actually have Kitchen-Aid)


StarStar - 6/8/2008 4:09:42 PM
+2 Boost
Great post!


goochgooch - 6/9/2008 4:03:12 PM
0 Boost
tKindred, seriously, your opinions and the way you write them don't match up with your "qualifications." I'm calling BS. You're just a Bimmer hater.


bclemansbclemans - 6/8/2008 12:42:29 AM
+1 Boost
Seems like a twin turbo version of their existing 3.5 or 3.7 liter V6 make more sense than a V8. Similiar to the application to the Nissan's GTR with 480 Horses.

00J's line of thoughts seem a bit outdated now. With rising oil prices, all three German giants (Audi, BMW and Mercedes) are make an 180 degree turn and switching to turbo charge / supercharge their next versions of RS4, M3 and AMG C class. This is despite the fact that the V8 M3 and AMG C63 are brand new for 08.


tkindredtkindred - 6/8/2008 2:36:14 PM
-1 Boost
"automotive pedigree"? Just because I do not agree that BMW has "pedigree" that cleary seperates them from the rest of the "middle pack" of mass produced luxury cars does not mean I do not know about cars. Actually the M1 was one of my favorite cars but it was in a different class.

AMG is a special type car that has been modified with higher end parts.

I come to my conclusion because I suspect the vendors that supply BMW, Lexus, Infiniti are all using the same type of materials (that probably originated from China) and the same type of manufacturing process.

The reason the topic of wealth came in is that many BMW lovers say people who buy BMW's do not consider value and cost but in fact I believe they are middle to upper middle class people who have limited disposable income just as those buying Infiniti.


StarStar - 6/8/2008 4:07:06 PM
-1 Boost
"tkindred" That's not the point. What is important is that people buy BMW and Infiniti for different reasons. Cars like Mercedes and BMW are the choice of the car enthusiast who is after top quality and ultimate driving experience. Of course since these cars are so popular with the enthusiast crowd other people(who are not necessarily enthusiasts)buy them based on their incredible reputation. Nothing wrong with that.
On the other hand cars like Infiniti and Lexus are desired by a different type of buyer. This type of buyer knows VERY little about cars but has very hard time in accepting that fact. This type of buyer wants to believe that he is a specialist when it comes to cars because of the readings he did on the Internet. Folks, just because you read some comparisons and you looked at some pictures with cars on the Internet doesn't mean that you KNOW about cars. Every time I hear somebody comparing an Infiniti with a BMW or Mercedes I know that that person is either clueless about cars or extremely biased(Infiniti payroll). No car enthusiast in the right mind would ever find it hard to choose between a BMW and an Infiniti or between a Mercedes and a Lexus. The differences between these cars are HUGE. In the eyes of the connoisseur there is simply NO competition.
I would take a Mercedes with a 2 liter engine and cloth seats before I would take a fully loaded Infiniti G37. Yes, the Infiniti is more powerful but that 2 liter Mercedes is WAY, WAY better engineered.
Average car buyer in America thinks quality means number of horsepower + number of features coming standard in a car = Japanese premium cars like (Lexus, Infiniti), but REAL quality is more like top quality materials + highest level of engineering and that = German luxury cars(BMW, Mercedes).


strafe1strafe1 - 6/8/2008 5:49:11 PM
+1 Boost
This is why you are limited in your thinking. Its not just parts and pieces! But since you are hanging your hat on that principle, there are upgraded parts, more finely milled parts, more precision parts, and the list goes on. No one makes an engine like the BMW performance cars have. They are unique. Why? BETTER parts and WAY BETTER ENGINEERING. The transmissions mated to those engines and the chassis underpinning it all are design and engineering marvels. This is AWARD WINNING technology, recognized by automotive experts everywhere. Infinity does not have any of this. That's why you cannot compare these cars the way you do. You are entitled to your own opinion about value and performance as it affects you. I would never question that. But you are factually in error when you equate Infinity manufacturing with Mercedes or BMW manufacturing. If you want to brag about engineering prowess in the Japanese market, talk about the GT-R. I will listen all day long.


DodgeyaussieDodgeyaussie - 6/8/2008 2:44:28 PM
+1 Boost
DoctorInfiniti, the convertable will be in showrooms way before March'09. Try November/December '08.


Dr550Dr550 - 6/9/2008 5:13:56 AM
+1 Boost
Bring back the J30.


tkindredtkindred - 6/8/2008 11:12:59 PM
0 Boost
strafe1, let me explain a little better. Again, this is my opinion based on my extensive knowledge about cars. Give the same information to different people and they will come to varying conclusions. I heap BMW in with all those mid range luxury cars because to me they are just another mass produced vehicle. They are nice but not extraordinary or so special to merit some sort of special classification on their own. Many BMW's owners do not like the fact that some just do not share their enthusiasm. But does that make them wrong or ignorant about cars? I think not. Now if you were talking about Porsche, yes, I can relate, but not BMW.

Oh, I know of some BMW owners who can't even change a flat tire on their vehicles.


BMW4me4everBMW4me4ever - 6/9/2008 11:12:13 AM
-2 Boost
Tkindred ... How many prestigous engine of the year awards has Infinti won? BMW has won it 19 times. How can you say that BMW does not make exceptional engines which are " The Best in the World"? That is just one phase.




StarStar - 6/9/2008 12:19:08 PM
0 Boost
tkindred Are you saying that all mass produced vehicles are the same? That doesn't make any sense. There is big difference in quality and level of engineering between cars that are mass produced.
And also this thing about Porsche. Why would Porsche be BETTER than BMW? Porsche doesn't compete directly with BMW since they build different types of cars. Do you understand that? If I want the best 4 door sport sedan I will have to buy a BMW(since it owns this segment). If I want the ultimate luxury sedan I will have to buy an S class Mercedes, if I want a sports car than Porsche is the answer. Each of these manufacturers absolutely owns at least one segment but you cannot really say that one is better than another.

tkindred "Oh, I know of some BMW owners who can't even change a flat tire on their vehicles. "

I already explained that not everybody that buys a BMW is a car guy. People who heard car enthusiasts rave about BMW also chose to drive one. Kudos to them.
Those people are much smarter than the ones who end up buying the cheaper Japanese copies because they don't listen to the real car experts. What is funny is that you fit exactly my description about people who choose to go against cars made by BMW or Mercedes, the people who don't know much about cars but have hard time to accept that.





tkindredtkindred - 6/9/2008 4:58:30 PM
+1 Boost
Star, come on. I know more than most about cars. I find joy reading about turbo housing sizing and plenum design, weight distribution of cars under accelation. I'd rather take a Chevy V8, Nissan L28, RB or VQ35DE and yes, a BMW L6, throw in some serious rods, cams, valves, pistons, maybe a turbo and drop into the lightest and stiffest chassis I can find. Maybe even tube up the chassis. Get some 3 piece modular rims and slap some sticky compound rubber on them. To be honest I could care less about the new BMW's. I like their more classic cars. BMW used to be one of my favorites.

I believe there are tiers in cars and BMW is the middle tier. Toyotas, Nissans (minus the GTR), Hondas, Chevy (minus the Vette), are lower tier as an example.

The next is BMW, AUDI (although they have a couple of cars reaching to the higher tier), Mercedes (same as AUDI), Lexus (soon to have a higher tier car), Jaguar(often reaching up to a higher tier), as examples.

The next tier is midrange Porsches, Nissan GTR, the Vette, etc.

The next is the Ferraris, Lambos, Alfa A8, Austin Martin etc.

Then the higher echelon.

Right at the end of the second tier is where you see different materials being used (carbon fiber, titanium, aluminum composites, handcrafted parts, passion in design. BMW is below this.






tkindredtkindred - 6/9/2008 5:05:33 PM
+1 Boost
BMW4me4ever, you see. I give credit where it is due. BMW makes a sweet L6. But if you truly followed engine designed you would definitely be familiar with the VQ's from Nissan.

"The VQ engine is a 2.0 L to 4.0 L V6 piston engine from Nissan. It is an aluminum block DOHC 4-valve design with aluminum heads. It is fitted with Nissan's EGI/ECCS sequential multi-point fuel injection (MPFI) system. Later versions feature various implementations of variable valve timing and replace MPFI with direct fuel injection (marketed as NEO-Di). This engine family is widely considered to be the world's benchmark V6 engine for its combination of smoothness, reliability and high power output. The VQ series is the only engine to be honored by Ward's 10 Best Engines list every year since the list's inception."

Also, the SR and RB are very well known engines with a cult following. Do a google search on SR20DET. That is one of the sweetest little motors I have ever found. And I have owned many. I had one especially shipped from Japan to drop into one of my project cars.


klossfamklossfam - 6/9/2008 12:09:41 PM
+3 Boost
As a '08 G35xS owner, it's hard to even IMAGINE the torquetasticness of a G50...the old VQ35HR will pin you in the seat! The 5L V8 would be awesome...but as with any M/AMG/S etc variation - limited units would be patroling our roads...If anyone has the "right" to go high performance editions - it's Nissam/Infiniti...the last bastion of truly affordable & legitimate sport/luxury.


StarStar - 6/9/2008 12:22:01 PM
+1 Boost
Oh please, your G35xS is a POS car. You paid less because what you got is LESS.


bimmerbimmer - 6/9/2008 2:01:29 PM
-1 Boost
@klossfam

Dream on my friend, while you have time, cause Renault holds a 44.3% stake in Nissan. Or... you can change the badge in your dreams for the Renault one.


goochgooch - 6/9/2008 4:10:12 PM
+2 Boost
"Torquetasticness" -- now there's a word I'll be using from now on.


blueshirts0819blueshirts0819 - 6/10/2008 10:10:02 AM
+1 Boost
I'm sorry Star, I know you are little jealous that your slow 328xi can't beat a G35xS or maybe you are pissed for the same price if not cheaper, you get a POS BMW 328xi with leatherette.


answeranswer - 6/9/2008 1:00:29 PM
0 Boost
Man, "star" is really stupid.


StarStar - 6/9/2008 1:22:06 PM
0 Boost
Why are you insulting idiot? Say whatever you want about BMW, Mercedes or other brand of cars you hate but restrain yourself from insulting other posters.


answeranswer - 6/9/2008 2:36:51 PM
0 Boost
I'm not insulting you. I'm acurately describing you.

You speak from a place of ignorance and hostility. You've filled this posting with more of your same baseless points and argumentative crap.

I'm not sure which is more sad. The fact that you feel a need to showcase how little you know, or the fact that the rest of us constantly get stuck reading it.


StarStar - 6/9/2008 3:50:10 PM
+1 Boost
I don't know why we have to put up with your insults just because you happen to disagree with the views expressed here. You don't agree, feel free to let us know your opinion about the subject. Just by saying that is all "argumentative crap" because that's what YOU think, does not give you the right to act like an a** online and insult everybody. If you have an opinion about the subject discussed here(cars), express it. If not STFU. Remember, you are not here to judge me or anybody else for that matter. Play by the rules or GTFO.


answeranswer - 6/9/2008 5:05:18 PM
0 Boost
Someone who posts this:

"Oh please, your G35xS is a POS car. You paid less because what you got is LESS. "

or

"Those people are much smarter than the ones who end up buying the cheaper Japanese copies because they don't listen to the real car experts."

is not in a place to deride others cordiality.

What "rules" are you speaking of by the way?

My opinion on this is that I'm sick of relevant conversation becoming impossible here thanks to people such as yourself that have to argue about the status/performance of brands all the time.

You are both biased and ignorant. Just because you say something repeatedly it doesn't make it true.

Maybe it is you who should "GTFO" if you can't live in a world where good cars come from more than one country of origin.



StarStar - 6/10/2008 10:52:33 AM
0 Boost
Women...(roll eyes).


AdHominemAdHominem - 6/11/2008 4:24:42 PM
+2 Boost
As usual, answer makes the weakest assertion that can ever be made in a debate: the Ad Hominem or attacking the person not the point. It adds absolutely nothing except to enlighten other readers that answer has no valid point to make and should be ignored.


AdHominemAdHominem - 6/11/2008 4:31:48 PM
+2 Boost
As usual, answer makes the weakest assertion in a debate: the Ad Hominem or attacking the person. Instead of having anything intelligent to say about the point at hand, answer just makes insults against the person who is making a point. The only value answer's comments serve are to enlighten the rest of us to ignore them.


tkindredtkindred - 6/9/2008 5:07:16 PM
+2 Boost
ifoo, THANK YOU! Well said. I can't even add anything to your post.


StarStar - 6/9/2008 6:13:42 PM
0 Boost
Just what we needed.. another brainwashed idiot(ifool) that thinks all the cars are the same. The difference between an Infiniti and a BMW is minuscule? Are you on heavy medication buddy?
There is no way in hell that you drove both a BMW and an Infiniti and got to that conclusion.


tkindredtkindred - 6/9/2008 5:17:42 PM
+1 Boost
I will say one more thing to clarify. Never did I say BMW was a bad car. They make fine cars, but it seems many BMW fans (perhaps not even owners) can't seem to accept there are other cars worthy of praise, equal or even better. Infiniti is doing a great job competing and adding value. Mechanically Infiniti is there but interior wise they are getting very close too.


StarStar - 6/9/2008 6:26:29 PM
0 Boost
" tkindred i feel like we're allies in an ignorant forum"

tkindred and you(ifool) are exactly the OPPOSITE of a car enthusiast. Is not the forum...Is YOU that is incredibly ignorant. Both of you are so clueless about cars that it feels like there is no way that somebody could even help you understand.
NO, not everybody makes good cars and NO the cars are not all the same. There are HUGE, HUGE differences between a Lexus and a Mercedes. There are HUGE, HUGE differences between a BMW and an Infiniti. That's the reason enthusiasts buy Mercedes and BMW while "vegetables" go for Lexus and Infiniti.


answeranswer - 6/9/2008 6:46:37 PM
+1 Boost
Star,

We all now know that you are an idiot. We also are quite aware of your silly bias against the Japanese brands.

You only embarrass yourself by continuing to post.


StarStar - 6/9/2008 7:42:38 PM
-3 Boost
"answer",

No, YOU are an IDIOT!!! You and "all"(a few retards) the losers who continue to tell themselves that they post here because they take an interest in cars. You should come clean and admit that people like you are here for the sole reason of taking cheap shots at the real car enthusiasts who are trying to have a conversation on these forums.
What kind of idiot can actually believe that a rebadged Nissan is a BMW competitor? You are actually trying to tell me that you believe that? I know that not even YOU are stupid enough to believe such an aberration.
What the F is wrong with you and the idiots that destroy every thread by not only spewing nonsense but making it always personal, by starting to insult other posters. Go to your "ricer" sites and insult each other all day long when talking about aftermarket exhausts for your lowered 89' Civic and leave the real enthusiasts here to actually talk about cars. Enough is enough.


strafe1strafe1 - 6/9/2008 11:05:51 PM
+2 Boost
ifoo,
you and tkindred are allies on the subject for sure. Your opinions are your own. But you, like tkindred, are letting your opinions affect what you say about objecive facts. That is why there is so much disagreement here. No one has said they hate Japanese cars and no one has said Infinity can't make a good car. But tkindred started off by saying he was a car expert and that he could see nothing that differentiated a MB or BMW from any other "midrange" car. He didn't know how the German cars got to be special and that the brand recognition was all a polished act that is nothing but a regular, mass-marketed automobile. The ignorance displayed in that posting, as well as yours at 5:00 pm, beg to question your ability to recognize the subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle differences between these very different cars? MB and BMW have a looooong history of developing and producing award winning automobile platforms and powertrains that other manufactures can only aspire to replicate (there are a few exceptions, of course). And they continue to be on the leading edge of technology and design. Lesser companies are succeeding because they are learning from the segment leaders, and offering products that look and feel like the better cars, at a reduced cost to boot. But they are not the equal. I've owned a Subaru, some Mitsubishis, a Honda and a Benz or two. The quality of all the cars are improving, but if you truly are knowledgeable about cars, and believe even half of what renowned, worldwide car experts say, you have to recognize that BMW and MB engineer BETTER cars than same class cars of all tkindred's "midlevel" brands.


tkindredtkindred - 6/10/2008 1:22:49 AM
+3 Boost
strafe1, look, no where did I say BMW's were bad cars. I actually think they produce good cars, but so does Infiniti, Lexus, etc. I told you I used to be a big BMW fan but not so much anymore. Their L6's are one of my favorites. But to me the difference is not enough to have this huge argument over. The difference to me is not substantial.

If you read my posts you can see my interest are more in high end cutting edge aftermarket and the very top end cars.

Again, go to this website http://www.sae.org/servlets/index. It is the Society of Automotive Engineers. It is for the guys who actually design this stuff. Once you join you can pay to download very informative and technical information and diagrams on various car components, including entire engine assemblies. I've been a member since my engineering school days. It is the real deal for automotive engineers and suppliers.

There you can find who supplies who with what and I mean exactly down to the wiring harnesses in the dash. You can download detailed tech info on various engines too. I mean, they dissect them and describe them down to the smallest compenent. Since you love BMW so much it might be of interest to you to read more about what their engines are actually built like.


tkindredtkindred - 6/10/2008 1:44:18 AM
+1 Boost
Porsche makes cars that are cutting edge and Mercedes also has the Maybach-Manufaktur division which directly competes with Rolls Royce.

Growing up I remember Mercedes was considered topping out over BMW but recently things have changed in the eyes of the common public.

I just found this. So some of you may not think I am so far off saying that Porsche and Mercedes reaching into the higher tier.

http://reviews.carreview.com/blog/porsche-named-top-prestigous-luxury-automobile-brand-for-2008-by-luxury-institute-again/

"ATLANTA, May 14, 2008 – For the fourth year running, America’s most affluent consumers have declared Porsche the most prestigious car available today. The Luxury Institute’s 2008 independent nationwide survey of luxury auto brands rated Porsche tops against eleven of the world’s most prestigious car brands. Lexus and Mercedes ranked second and third, respectively.

The Luxury Institute conducted an online survey of more than 1,600 American consumers – with an average income of $349,000 and average net worth of $3.7 million. This year’s survey respondents strongly associated Porsche with its stellar performance reputation, summing up their top choice as “world-class sports cars for the true connoisseur.” The proprietary 2008 Luxury Brand Status Index survey is the only measure of the reputation of leading brands among wealthy Americans."


tkindredtkindred - 6/10/2008 2:12:54 AM
+2 Boost
strafe1, I think we have a misunderstanding. You say

"And they continue to be on the leading edge of technology and design. Lesser companies are succeeding because they are learning from the segment leaders".

You see, cars like the BMW, Infiniti, Lexus do not interest me so much. I personally group them together because I feel they are more similar than different. The cars that are a notch above are the ones I find interesting because those ARE the cars with leading edge technology in my eyes. Cars like the Porsche, high end Audi, Austin Martin, Z06 Vette, Ferrari, Nissan GTR, Alfa 8C or even the Lotus just to give you an idea. Or take a lower end car and do aftermarket like titanium rods, titanium valves, billet crank, coil overs, things you see in the high end cars.


StarStar - 6/10/2008 9:30:07 AM
-2 Boost
tkindred,

so you group cars like Aston Martin and Ferrari together with Corvette Z06 and the GT-R? Have you lost your mind? Or BMW and Mercedes with Infiniti? Let me think how I should answer to that. Oh yes...Bha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.....


tkindredtkindred - 6/10/2008 9:41:21 PM
0 Boost
star, I did not say Aston Martin and Ferrari are grouped with the GTR and Corvette. I said those cars are on the break point where things get interesting as far as more exotic materials being used.


tkindredtkindred - 6/10/2008 9:39:46 PM
+1 Boost
From JD Power. I think BMW dropped quite a bit. You do notice Infiniti is is No. 2?

"Porsche is the top brand, with the fewest reported problems per vehicle. Honda has winners in three segments, more than any other automaker. Its Honda Civic, Fit and CR-V all got awards. Ford continued its quality gains, with its Mercury and Ford brands cracking the top 10. And Nissan's Infiniti division pushed Lexus out of the way to grab the No. 2 position, vaulting from ninth."


tkindredtkindred - 6/10/2008 11:23:59 PM
0 Boost
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand

JD Power quality rating by brand. BMW lovers, explain this one.

Infiniti (4 rating) = better than most
BMW (3 rating) = about average
Nissan (3 rating) = about average
Porsche (5 rating) = among the best
Mercedes Benz (4 rating) = better than most

So maybe JD Power is stupid too.


StarStar - 6/11/2008 10:50:01 AM
0 Boost
"So maybe JD Power is stupid too"

Maybe??????? You can bet your life on that.


tkindredtkindred - 6/10/2008 11:47:23 PM
-1 Boost
Another survey. To be honest. Never heard of this one. So the question is, if these surveys given to the actual owners of these vehicles consistently place BMW in the middle of the pack or below, be trusted?

http://www.strategicvision.com/auto_segmentwinners.php

Rank 1 Mercedes-Benz S-Class Sedan Score 950
Rank 2 Lexus LS Sedan Score 922

Segment Average: Score 911

Rank 3 BMW 5-Series Sedan Score 904


strafe1strafe1 - 6/10/2008 11:52:21 PM
+3 Boost
tkindred,
No where did I say that you disliked BMW's. Yes, I have been paying attention to your interest in after market mods and exotic cars. You also continue to talk about parts and suppliers in a manner that makes all cars equal. If I am not understanding correctly, then tell me why you keep mentioning those facts. Same parts and supplies do not make same cars. I cannot make a cake like Bobby Flay, but I have the eggs, and whisk, and butter, etc., just like he does. Do you understand what I am saying? Also, I "do not love BMW so much" like you say, as to own one. Because my driving needs are better served with another car (MB). But it is not lost on me the class leading automobiles that MB and BMW produce. I know what your position is...you are grouping cars into tiers according your sense of exotic, upper level, mid level, etc. That's fine. My argument with you all along (please look back at my posts) is that you ask:

"What makes a German car so much better? I mean, really? The materials used in the engine block, heads, crank, etc.? The materials in the suspension, driveline? The craftmanship? Are they handmade or something?"

If you don't really know the answers, you're no expert. If you know, but are trivializing the differences, then you're being arrogant and dismissive of the facts.

And also:
"I can throw $2k at most any rear wheel car and make it handle better than any BMW."

Please.


And:
"So "prestige" sounds like a marketing term to me. I know what makes a Ferrari, Porsche 911 Turbo, etc, special. But not a BMW."

This is it in a nutshell. You may think of BMW and MB as "highly mass produced cars", and you may lump them with all the middle class cars you like. But if you can't see what makes a class-leading vehicle special, then we have no way to communicate.

What cars are special to you is your thing. No problem. But don't profess your expertise then ask questions that show limited knowledge.


tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 2:00:52 AM
0 Boost
strafe1, We are on two different hemispheres.

I am sure you have done some research on how a BMW is built compared to the other mid range luxury brands. You say I do not present facts, where are yours? You constantly say I do not know about cars, which is a total joke to me so I do not take that comment seriously, but you have not given any real factual evidence that indicates BMW's are manufactured substantually better than the other "mid range" luxury brands. Perhaps you are some kind of automotive genious our something that can teach us all about BMW's. Something more than automotive engineers themselves know. So educate us.

I am not an expert but I know more than the vast majority. Example, when I take my heads in to get flowed, or my engine to be balanced and blue printed, they are the experts. To trick the ECU to do what you want it to do and not what the factory set it to do. To design a custom tube chassis for my car, those are the experts. I understand the process and how it works but they understand the art. But I watched them do it many times. I asked questions and they try to educate me. The experts do the art then assemble the pieces, motor, chassis, body, etc.

Do you consider yourself in this group of expertise? If so I will listen to you. If not, do not waste your time trying to pursuade me about some BMW products that I find uninteresting.

I bring up the issue of materials because materials used in the construction of a car makes a huge difference. I bring up tiers because different materials are used in different tiers of cars. Now you bring up the actual car building process. Again, this can be seperated into tiers where, yes, BMW, to me is in the middle. There is a point where engines are hand made, etc. Like the Nissan GTR engine. Ferrari engines.

You must agree what difference knife edge forged cranks, light titanium valvs and rods make so the engine responds faster and revs higher, magnesium wheels to reduce rotating mass. These are things found in aftermarket and higher tier cars. This is the world I am interested mostly in.

I bring up aftermarket because that is where titanium, magnisium, blue printing and balancing come into play. from Wiki as an example "Blueprinting

In engine blueprinting, all the specifications are double-checked. Usually this indicates closer-than-factory tolerances, with custom specifications appropriate for a street car or a race car. The goals usually are to:"

You see, the most production cars are an engineering compromise. They are not designed to the optimal because of cost. But when you climb up tier this optimization increases. BMW, as an example, falls below this line for cost savings.

Example, in my project cars all my engines were balanced and blueprinted. Because I can feel the difference, hear the difference. I have flown to L.A., Boston, just to drive a car with a certain import engines unavailable here in the U.S so I could make a better decision


tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 2:02:52 AM
-1 Boost
I meant to say I assemble the pieces, meaning, I have built cars from the ground up.


tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 2:09:03 AM
-1 Boost
strafe1, I am curious. How many cars have you built? Engines you have built, transmissions, suspensions, wiring harnesses you have rewired? I have done it a few times on American and imports. What about you?


tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 2:21:45 AM
-1 Boost
strafe1, finally, even though I have built cars I know enough about them to know I am NOT an expert. The guys who do the machining, reprogramming, etc, are. Although I understand the method I do not understand the art. Again, if you are at this level of expertise I will gladly listen to you about your proclaimed wisdom about cars.


StarStar - 6/11/2008 11:12:36 AM
+1 Boost
tkindred,

I seriously doubt that anybody has enough patience to deal with somebody like you. Do you listen to what people are trying to explain you? You seem to be on auto mode considering the fact that you keep repeating the same thing in your posts. Just some examples that might help you understand how cars are classified.

Luxury car segment: Mercedes and BMW are leaders while like Lexus, Infiniti are mid pack

Sports car segment: Porsche is the leader, cars like Corvette are mid pack

Ultra luxury segment: Rolls Royce, Bentley, Maybach (there is obviously no midpack here)

Supercars; Lamborghini, Ferrari, Pagani, Buggati, obviously no midpack here.

This is the way you group cars. You cannot put a Corvette above a BMW because the Corvette doesn't compete with BMW. The BMW is the superior brand because they manage to be a leader in THEIR RESPECTIVE SEGMENT while the Corvette belongs to MIDPACK in ITS OWN SEGMENT. CLEAR?


tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 10:35:38 PM
0 Boost
ifoo, I understand what it is your saying and I respect the way you present facts to back it up.


StarStar - 6/11/2008 2:48:59 PM
+2 Boost
ifoo "So BMW is a step above in engineering quality, but as my argument has always been, many of these differences are so subtle from other car companies that it really isn't enough to sway most buyers' decisions. Unless you live on a racetrack much of this technology will never reach its potential on the road."

I have to disagree. You certainly don't need to go to a race track in order to see the differences between a BMW and an Infiniti. The BMW is better built. You can see that just by noticing the absence of rattles, which are a problem in Infiniti cars. Let's go to the engine. Notice the unbelievable smoothness up to the red line and gorgeous sound of the BMW engines when compared with the vacuum cleaner type of sound and the excessive vibrations so easy noticeable in the Infiniti engines. Also the power delivery. The BMW responds in any RPM range while Infiniti feels underpowered at low RPM. Next..how the car feels. The BMW feels natural, light on its feet vs the less responsive, more numb reactions of the Infiniti car. Then the brakes. Hear how noisy the brakes are in the Infiniti and how rough the idle is when you wait at the light compared with the BMW. So the things are exactly the other way around of what you said. It is ESPECIALLY in normal driving conditions where the BMW shines vs Infiniti.
Is not performance numbers where the Japanese makers lack, is in the overall level of engineering their cars have.
The Japanese are capable of building very fast cars(GT-R) or moving couches(like Lexus LS), but they never get the right combination between luxury and performance. They never seem to be able to build cars that appeal to your senses. It takes a lot of talent and work to be able to transform a pile of metal in something desirable. People love German cars because they give that "something"(some call it soul)that connects the man with the car. It doesn't really even matter how you call it. It is there and is the result not of divine intervention but outstanding engineering skills. Is why people are willing to pay more for these engineering marvels vs just a "good" car.




tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 11:05:23 PM
+1 Boost
I feel as though I need to clarify. Everything is relative including what people feel is cutting edge and engineering achievement. It is all opinion. The best we can do is present the facts, like ifoo, and try to make a case for our opinion. Facts are presented buy performance benchmarks, statistical data and so forth.

I have a background in engineering, studied strength of materials, thermodynamics, fluids, etc. A few of my friends are mechanical engineers who work or have worked in the auto industry and we share a lot of the same philosophies about automotive design. Often we help each other on our projects.

So when someone speaks of engineering quality, I may have a different take on it.

I am not sure how many on this forum truly work on cars and understand them, have a automotive technical background or are mechanical engineers or whatever. Perhaps many of you do and you disagree with everything I say here and that is your right and your opinion. It can not be argued.

From my education, my circle of friends (mechanical engineers, structural engineers, etc) who many are car nuts, I have formulated my opinions. I know I am no expert but like anyone, I have a right to my opinion.

I do not even know what the argument is here anymore. I stated many times BMW's are good cars.


tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 11:23:12 PM
+1 Boost
Oh, and I should add, even if you do not have a technical background and do not work on cars you still have a right to your opinions. Maybe when you sit in a BMW, Infiniti or whatever you just fall in love with the way it feels and no other cars gives you that sensation. Who can argue that?


tkindredtkindred - 6/11/2008 11:17:48 PM
+1 Boost
strafe1, I respect your opinion. But I ask that you also respect mine. We do not have to agree. Grown men arguing over a car is getting childish.


arrowmgarrowmg - 7/16/2008 12:14:11 AM
+1 Boost
INFINITI'S FLAGSHIP (WHEN IT FINALLY DROPS) SHOULD NOT BE SOLD AS A CHEAPER ALTERNATIVE TO ANYONE!!!!! PRICE IT THE SAME WAY THAT LEXUS SELLS THE LS AND MAKE SURE CUSTOMERS GET THE SAME ATTENTION TO REFINEMENT DETAILS THAT BMW AND LEXUS GET. (that doesn't make it less of an infiniti because it's quiet, or that the auto-transmission has 6 or 7 gears. or that the driver's chair is as luxurious and heavy as the 5 or 7 series.) WE ALL KNOW THAT INFINITI'S ARE BETTER STYLED, AND OUTPERFORM MOST OF THE LUXURYT SEGMENT BUT THEY R STILL PERCEIVED "JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH". I'M AN M35 OWNER AND BELIEVE ME WHEN PEOPLE CAN AFFORD A FLAGSHIP THEY COULD CARE LESS ABT IT BEING CHEAPER THAN BEEMER, BENZ, AUDI, LEXUS ETC. AT THAT POINT FOLKS ARE BUYING ON PRESTIGE. WHEN IM READY FOR A FLAGSHIP I WANNA BRAG THAT "MY CAR HAS EVERYTHING THAT URS HAS AND BY THE WAY IT OUTPERFORMS THE CRAP OUT OF UR CAR AND LOOKS BETTER 2". IF IT JUST SO HAPPENS TO COST A FEW DOLLARS LESS THEN SO BE IT, BUT THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE TARGET. IF UR LOOKING FOR A CHEAPER CAR IN THE LUXURY MARKET U SHOULD BE BUYING A 'M' OR A 'G' AND LET THE BIG BOYS ROLL WITH THE BIG BOYS.
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