Who needs a Prius? 2009 Audi A4 at over 70 mpg!

the great thing about this car is that it is a mid-size heavy german car not a ecno box

Impressive but the article does state that they were only averaging 45-50mph and they choose a route purely for maximum efficiency. So they are cherry picking a couple ways there, slower speeds and perfect roads.

With diesel prices being roughly 18-20% higher than gasoline (in the US), a Prius would only need to achieve 59mpg on this "maximum efficiency route".

Still impressive and on par with the Prius/Civic hybrid.

enp83
the prius is a tin can. hte new A4 is a mid size car
diffrent class altogeather

Has Toyota ever stated where they've tested for their optimal level of fuel efficiency? How do we know they weren't cherry picking? WE DON'T.

"Impressive but the article does state that they were only averaging 45-50mph and they choose a route purely for maximum efficiency. So they are cherry picking a couple ways there, slower speeds and perfect roads."

I'm sure it also includes city commutes or stops as well. Ever thought of that?

"Impressive but the article does state that they were only averaging 45-50mph and they choose a route purely for maximum efficiency. So they are cherry picking a couple ways there, slower speeds and perfect roads."

nope, check your geographie skillz. vienna and basel even more, are placed next to an area called the alps. its kinda rocky there and you have to pass relatively high altitude differences. if they were not looking for the competition, they had probably chosen the netherlands for this test. does anyone know where toyota tested the prius?

IamEvilHomer check your facts. The EPA classifies the Prius as a midsize and the A4 as a compact. Try again.

Agent63, you don't need cherry picked numbers, you can go by the EPA numbers. The A4 is roughly the same size as the Jetta, the '09 Jetta comes with a 2.0L diesel engine. The '09 Jetta with the 2.0L diesel engine is rated at 30mpg in the city and 41mpg on the highway (or 29/40 for the automatic). For reference, the Prius is rated at 48mpg in the city and 45mpg on the highway. So the new diesel Jetta gets less miles per gallon AND has to pay more for each gallon.

100octane, look at a map...neither city is in the Alps, they both lie north of the mountains. And if you want some Prius cherry picking numbers to compare just do a search on prius hypermileage marathon, 109-120mpg. What's more important, more realistic, and useful are the EPA numbers which are VERY controlled and VERY scientific (and thus a VERY fair comparison). With that in mind once again compare the new '09 Jetta with it's 2.0L diesel engine against a Prius.

emp82

read carefully, i said "are placed next to an area called the alps" and there are significant altitude differences on the driven way, just take a look at a detailed map.

so yes, these are very realistic numbers. thats why they did it there. like i said, if you would do a hypermilage marathon in a very flat country like the netherlands, the results would be even better.

a4 compact? ok and whats an a2, even more compact?

emp - the 2009 is a midsize
sorry
and the epa can call the prius a midsize but we all have eyes

enp - the problem with the ea test is that it is scientific and not real world. they do formulas that cars like the prius or a tdi don't fit into.

the new test taes the engine alone and pretends the belts to the accesories are hooked up not even on. The epa should test the cars on a real world track at 10 mph stoping every 30 second for city and a constant 55 mh for highway.
use the track in Sonoma it is a good track with hills and dips.

that would be a great epa test.

dosen't consumer reports do a test lie that?

100octane, those numbers are far from what the average driver will see everyday in the real world..THEY ONLY AVERAGED 45MPH! 45mph is no where near realistic highway speeds in the US and you're not going to average 45mph in a city type setting.

Evilhomer, ah yes let's use your bias opinion to classify vehicle sizes instead of actual interior measurements...

2009 VW Jetta 2.0L Diesel 6spd 30/41
2008 Toyota Prius hybrid auto 48/45

Prius mpg > Jetta diesel mpg

Prius batteries would run down driving in the mountains and then you'd have no power and have to run full throttle, especially in the higher elevations.

thesailor, thanx again for providing us pure and verifiable facts with your statements. I know a guy who knew a guy who got 70mpg in xyz car so trust me thats what it gets. Thats what you sound like. That and and "no no dont listen to fair, verifiable scientific tests, listen to my opinion"

I'm sure we'll see many comparisons between the prius and jetta diesel (when it FINALLY hits showrooms) in the future, but until then you've got nothing legit to back up your opinions

sailor, actually 90% efficiency is OUTSTANDING!

most ICE efficiencies are only in the 25% range, +/-. a diesel MAY get a few percentage points more, but it would STILL be WAY LESS than 50%.

as for the EPA figures not being realistic, i know at least a 1/2 dozen prius owners. they all AVERAGE at least 45 mpg. one got 60 mpg recently on a trip, which included crossing the Alaska Range.

and, we're not even talking about Hypermilers, who CONSISTENTLY GET 100 mpg with Prii. the champ gets close to 120.

finally, just because those were audis, DOES NOT mean they're 'fast and sporty.' these only had 120 hp engines. read the article.

I'd love to see that come over here. I'd buy one and then use it to wipe the smug looks off of Prius drivers' faces.

that would be great if its in a wagon. then I could travel to canada from metro DC with only some 3 refuels (?)

they make a wagon

The Audi also has great styling where the Prius doesn't.

I see you locked up in the loony bin, that's what I see..

take away about 4 people from this site and it might be good

No, I don't see what you mean to be quite honest. The A4 is a sport sedan. The Prius is a hatchback that is as much social statement as transportation. I'd rather have an A4 any day, especially one that gets better gas mileage than the Prius.

Agreed, the A4 would be a much more fun car to drive, equal or better fuel economy, and muuuuuuch better performance. Merging onto a busy freeway in a prius can be scary if the batteries aren't fully charged.

When was the last time you drove a 120hp car? For me it was 1994. Given that the diesel has better low-end grunt, but still...this sounds like an ideal powerplant to be a PART of a hybrid system. I'm definitely going to want to add electric motor(s) for passing, hills, etc.

t-bone - hp is top speed Torqe is hill climb
214 foot pounds of torque is great
your civic had probably 50

Whats fun about a diesel is with all of that torque you really don't need to downshift to pass and pull hills.

evil--

HP is for ACCELERATION and top speed.

torque is for lugging without having to downshift. if a hill is steep enuff, you'd STILL have to downshift.

HP will get you UP HILLS faster too. even if you have to downshift more.

i really don't even care about HP anymore. I fi can get 70 MPG with diesel, i really take it.
at present i have Armada and 08 G35

<--drives a 110hp car (123trq) and it works fine for me. Will do 100mph no problem, can still pass on the highway, can easily merge onto the highway. And I rarely even push the pedal down half way...

Unless you live in the mountains or tow/haul stuff you might want to rethink your driving habits.

and the A4 has almost 2 x the torque

I highly doubt there are that many cars out there that can do 70mpg.

I worked on Cruise Ships and Tugs for years. Diesel was always known for great efficiency and reliability. Diesel Electric is even more efficient and works well on boats because the electric motor’s high torque turns a prop very well.

Even though Diesel cost more, you get more BTUs out of a Gallon of Diesel as opposed to Gasoline. Diesel is simply more dense since it is less refined. Diesels keep running as long as they have clean fuel and filters, there are no spark plugs to change, and no ignition system to maintain.

I’ve never bee much of a fan of having an electric car, or having batteries and wires running everywhere under the seats. It just presents many headaches down the road. There is already too many moving parts and thing to go wrong on cars today.

Yes, you do have to drive a lot of miles to recoup the cost of Diesel, but the engines get well over 100K miles, meaning you can get away from having to finance a car every few years which is also a steep expense people don’t calculate into their budgets.

I’d rather have the cost of high fuel as opposed to a high car payment for years on end.

If only New York State would make Diesel Cars Legal again, I would buy one immediately. Probably a VW or Audi, maybe Mercedes. It will take too long for Ford to build a Diesel Sedan. There 4.4L Diesel Pickup looks promising, but there too slow to expand the engine to other platforms.

The new Jetta TDi coming out this fall is the first all 50 state Diesel!!
It is cleaner than a Prius!!

I keep sayin it.

Diesels are the way to go on high economy vehicles.

For those who do not agree, fine. Keep your Petrol cars, more diesels for the smart ones.

Give me a diesel any day. Efficiency and power to spare.

Ditto.

I am actually considering getting rid of my land rover or just getting a jetta TDI or a tiguan if the performance is good enough.

The went to and from, so even if they chose an efficient route for one way, they still have to drive back the other way. So it doesn't matter which route they picked.

German car article favorite word - dynamism. Frankly, this article stinks, even if the A4 2.0 diesel may not. Little facts and lots of propaganda. It would be nice to see a more objective and independent take on the car and this test taken on the NJ turnpike ;).

I think the 2009 Prius will really show us how far the gas-electric hybrid technology can be taken today in a mass-produced vehicle and if it is far enough. I suspect not.

On the positive side, diesels fight global warming by emitting sooth and sulfur dioxide that block the Sun and cool the Earth. On the negative, they pollute, are expensive, complex and difficult to start in the cold, and still use petroleum.

Batteries need to evolve in two ways, capacity and recharge time. Until they can be fully charged in less than 15 minutes and can last 200+ miles, electric vehicles will stay on the fringe of mass acceptance and we will be stuck with combustion engines and petroleum fuels.

What about the people with lung diseases and have to breathe in the soot emitted by diesel vehicles?

I can feel the love, Mr Sailor. You will never see me alive behind the wheel of a Toyota so you totally missed the mark on that one. But that's not important. What is important is that a lot more people have bought a "questionable" hybrid than a diesel in this country and evil Toyota with their Prius lead the pack.

I can barely keep a simple catalytic converter in shape for more than 3 years, I can only imagine how well all those scrubbers, particulate filters and bluetec nonsense will fare, especially in city driving. The electric car is the future, and the gas-electric hybrid shows us the way to it.

sailor:

"The clever thing about todays cars is that they are incredibly quick and easy to load up with new power reserves (gasoline)... a battery pack takes quite a bit of time to charge. and if the battery has to have the necessary power to power a car for more than a few miles, you need big batteries, and that means either big currents and voltage (like will-fry-you-in-an-instant-power) or big recharging times... and who wants to wait four-five hours for the batteries to recharge at some god forsaken truck stop in the middle of nowhere because you ran out of juice halfway to vegas?"

you just MADE THE CASE FOR HYBRIDS being the way to the future. until better batteries make full electrics viable, hybrids are the BEST of both worlds.

and there is still HUGE potential for further performance improvements; hybrids have been around for less than 10 years. and they are already returning better mileage than diesels, which have been around for 100 years.

one can only imagine how efficient hybrids will be in another few decades, say nothing of 90 years!

Well we can agree on the last half of that post. Right now they're just waiting on batteries to catch up so that they can be more powerful to support a car with a much smaller engine, be mass produced cost effectively for longevity.

And again you just made the case for hybrids. Instead of using a 1.8L engine like the regular Civics the Civic hybrid uses a 1.3L. The 1.3L is more fuel efficient than the 1.8L, the electric motors help it be even more fuel efficient WHILE adding power to make up for the smaller engine so people don't notice the decrease in acceleration.

You, like A LOT of other people, just want to take the concept a little farther (Chevy Volt style).

if fuel cost that much electricity will be to expencive to plug in.

if we just drilled here and looked for other sources of energy (like hippy love) while we drill for oil. if that is dumb then take back my subscription to Menza mag.

obviosly it was an economy run, but you can still probably get 40-50 on a normal highway drive

Or better. The article said 46 mpg average.

For what a good hybrid can do check out pmlflightlink.com It will take 20 years for any car company to match this unfortunatly.

And yes this Audi is impressive! I comute 150km a day and I have been driving less agressivly to conserve fuel and have been achieving 6.8L/100km in my 2007 civic with 140HP driving at 75% highway driving at 115km to 25% city.I could definatly get better mielage at these slow speeds but I don't think that I could aquire as good gas mielage as the Audi.

if they put it behind a ford expedition drafting I bet it would get 100mpg. even more impressive.

can't wait to see what it will do stateside. euro diesel technology is already well proven and has a future in the us. maybe not the VW toureg v10 though.

Is this Audi A4 TDi Coming to the USA?

it will, but with the 3.0 V6 TDI...

To en83: Actually these MPG numbers on the Jetta will change.. VW has hired a 3rd party to verify these mileage as in testing the car was getting much closer to 60 MPG on the highway.

What are you talking about? It's Toyota that have boring designs. They don't even have a proper midrange coupe and when the LF-A comes out it's not going to cater to most consumers anyways. Audi is a premium brand and are for the conservative non-badgewhores who want a well built German machine.

European diesel is cleaner than the US version, at least before the new standards took place here. If you consider the premium you pay for hybrids and the potential for cost savings (fuel and/or MRSP) over an equivalent diesel powered econobox in many cases the diesel powered car will win that caomparison. I also suspect that if diesels are actually that bad for the enviroment then they'd have banned them in European countries that often are more enviromentally conscious than we are here in the US.
I've driven in Austria and in Switzerland (and in between) over the past 7 years. They have a very good road system and have numerous bridges and tunnels. The biggest detractor to maintaining a constant speed is traffic; it can get congested sometimes. I am impressed that they were able to a fuel economy of 3.32 liters of diesel fuel per 100 kilometers (70.85 US mpg). The car I use most often for long distance driving in Europe does around 12-15 liters/100 km on average and can easily go into the 20s if I'm stepping on it. I guess the most important fact they've shown from this test is "It thus became clear just what potential there is in the driver’s foot for reducing fuel consumption."

<img src=http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/6117/nomountainsuz7.jpg>

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/6117/nomountainsuz7.jpg

Yeah look at all those mountains directly in between the two cities. Especially that mountainous city called Munich. Quit lying on the board about how this test was conducted in some steep mountain roads. This "efficiency drive" was a stunt for a car magazine where they told 20 readers to drive as efficiently as possible. There's no reason why they'd go out of their way to drive in the mountains when their entire goal was to get the best mpg possible.


See for yourself

<img src=http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6541/priuswinkc1.jpg>

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9738/priuswinck1.jpg

"they use a car that has a full battery"

Provide documentation or STFU



"I have no idea if the civic hybrid is plug in"-TheSailor showcases his lack of knowledge about hybrids.

sailor:

"I S-A-I-D T-H-E-I-R R-A-T-I-N-G I-S S-C-E-W-E-D... what part of that of that didn't you understand... I'll just try again, they use a car that has a full battery which haven't been charged using the gas in the test... "


your logic is screwed.

how do you think the prius batteries GET charged? by NORMAL driving and regenenerative braking. and whenever the gas engine is running and putting out MORE than is necessary for just moving the car. if you can find ONE prius driver who pulls into the garage at the end of the day with a completely depleted battery, i'll show you either a moron, or a magazine tester.

hybrids BY NATURE are more efficient. they RECAPTURE ENERGY all other vehicle types simply THROW AWAY as heat whenever they brake.

You can tell by this last post that he still has absolutely no grasp on regenerative braking...


"I have no idea if the civic hybrid is plug in"-TheSailor showcases his lack of knowledge about hybrids.

once again this shows how much efficiency is based on how you drive and not just what you drive

The problem in the US is that you have state governments regulating what people can buy. They outlawed Diesel cars by using the lame excuse that they don't meet pollution standards. They just oulaw them because the lobbyists don't want Americans to have choice. They know that Diesel requires less maintenance and there is no Check Engine Light or computers that gas cars have. States love the yearly inspection where they can hold a persons car hostage and foce motorists to pay up for crazy repairs. The repair shops love the business they can derive from this. Big oil loves limited choice, so they can enjoy thier anti-trust.

Diesels are extremely reliable, this is why they are used on Ships. Yes, some ships use Diesel Electric, but they have generator rooms with large robust equipment, isolated from salt water entry.

It really comes down to this. Who wants to own a 5 year old electric car? I know most people here are wealthy, and probably trade every few years, but seriously, do you really want the headaches of costly repairs to complex electrical systems? Electrical problems are the most difficult to troubleshoot and fix. Mechanical problems can be fixed in your driveway with some new parts from Nap. There are many people who don’t even own a garage. They need a reliable car that can be fixed in a few hours after work. Electric cars have batteries everywhere. Batteries require meticulous maintenance, and even then last only a few years. If you drive on salty roads, or extreme temperatures, the lifespans are even shorter. Salt corrodes the ground points so you lose electrical power in many points on within the ciruit. I haven’t seen Stainless Steel used on cars since the Chrysler New Yorker and the Eldorado, and it was only the roof panels.

you need to rent the video and see "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

electric cars actually are FAR MORE RELIABLE and LOW MAINTENANCE than conventional cars.

when was the last time you had to overhaul the electric motor in your fridge? or give it ANY maintenance at all?

most of the maintenance on electric cars, will be with the running gear, mostly just tires and brakes. and even the brakes will be MUCH longer lived, tending to be used very little due to regenerative braking.

The governments have decided to tax the diesel owners because they are better on fuel, so there goes that cheaper option. There is tech out there that would blow this A-4 and prius away! Impressive mileage! except I wouldn't want to be driving behind this group of hyper millers driving that slow.

The only Audi A2 that got 70mpg was the "3L" version with it's 1191cc 3cylinder 60hp diesel engine. Which took over 13 seconds to reach 60mph and could barely do 100mph (MotorTrend tests the Prius 0-60 at 10.5seconds)

Prius rated at 65.7mpg on european cycle


http://www.automotoportal.com/article/toyota-prius-10-years-at-the-top


It's very relevant information because only when you compare the A2 with it's smallest and lowest power engine (a whopping 60hp) does the A2 get better gas mileage than the Prius. If you compare it against an A2 with similar performance, any of the other 4 more common engines, the Prius gets equal or better gas mileage.

I don't expect a person who says theres no future for electric vehicles, who can't comprehend regenerative breaking, and who thought the Civic hybrid might be a plug in, to understand that simple concept.

You've yet to provide a link to anything, you just say "I'm right, now go search for it"...everyone on the board can see that.

Hybrids recapture energy during braking that non-hybrids literally throw away and don't use which makes them more efficient at using fuel.

The all electric GM EV1 recharged in 8 hours. I sleep 8 hours each night. I plug my cell phone in and recharge it every night, I could easily do the same for my car. EV1 could travel 130 miles on that charge, my commute at most is 40 miles each way...AND the EV1 was mid 90s technology

http://thegarageblog.com/garage/ev1-undone/

sailor--

what is "smuck?" did you mean smug? smart? (yes i am smart. and smug ONLY when using the smarts to deflate ignorant statements.)

you yourself are SMUG often, as if you KNOW more than the rest of us. actually you only THINK you do, because not only do you display poor logic and downright ignorance at times, but you even contradict YOUR OWN statements.

"You want everybody to have a secondary car with a gas engine for those trips? Most people won't be able to afford that anyway, so they'll just stick to the gasoline car."

most people? how many american families do you know that do NOT own at least two cars?

"I'll just repeat myself^There is no future in electric vehicles! I am not saying that there is no future in partially electric vehicles, I am saying that hybrids are stupid because they offer no efficiency gain and electric vehicles are just as stupid because they aren't nearly versatile enough."

yet in so many of your posts, you actually MAKE A CASE FOR HYBRIDS. so is one side of your brain making statements UNBEKNOWNST to the other side? lol!


"An electric car with a backup gasoline engine is very clever however... I'm amazed it took them so long to come up with it though. This combines the best of both worlds as you get an electric car with zero carbon footprint but you still have the engine to back you up should you be unfortunate enough to run out of power."

like i said, you MAKE THE CASE for hybrids. so why are they "stupid" again?


"and yes, I do, because i am one of those smug a**holes who knows I'm right and don't really need to prove it to you... I say you can go and look it up in case you are interested in learning something new, not to prove myself..."

there was a comedy piece called "Everything you know is WRONG." so don't be so smug. unless you take pride in (partial) IGNORANCE!
and you mite take your own advice "learning something new." sometimes, it may require your UNlearning something you learned WRONG the first time.


"As to regenerative braking, You don't need a hybrid system to do that... BMW is doing it without the hybrid drive and is experiencing the same kinds of efficiency gain..."

nope. NOT the same efficiency gain. if the extra energy recaptured by regenerative braking is NOT USABLE (as with a complete hybrid system), then what good is it? your battery will accept charging energy only up to the point of being fully charged. any more is just waste. normal alternators replenish the energy used for starting within just a few miles. not only is it wasteful trying to FORCE MORE CHARGE into a standard size battery, it can actually damage the battery.

the FULL benefits of regenerative braking can only be exploited with an electric drive motor, and the associated LARGER battery pack. which can be sized optimally according to design objectives.

again, any vehicle that DOES NOT take full advantage of regenerative braking AND an electric motor to re-conver

any vehicle that DOES NOT take full advantage of regenerative braking AND an electric motor to re-convert (temporarily) stored energy to motion, is simply WASTING the kinetic energy DUMPED everytime the brakes are applied.

(and even hybrids occasionally waste energy too, when driven in such a way that the service brakes are used more often than necessary.)

When I say maintenance, I'm referring to the batteries. Your fridge doesn't operate on a battery.

the fact remains, electric motors are require far less maintenance than ICEs. again, watch the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

the scene with the mechanic doing the scheduled maintenance is priceless! less time and trouble than even a basic oil change. and he did not even get his hands dirty!

as for battery maintenance, WHAT battery maintenance? ever hear of "maintenance free" batteries? yes i know they eventually wear out. but i once had a regular non-maintenance-free battery that lasted for 14 years!

and toyota has designed the prius system specifically for long life (with all "maintenance" automated by electronics dictated charge cycles).

to date, there are high mileage priuses but no known case of a battery pack wearing out.

Where I live the average highs in the winter are in the low-mid 40s with average lows in the teens to low 20s. My 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid has worked fine the last two winters.

My concern is the very salty roads and tough Buffalo winters. The salt corrodes copper wire to a green powder. Ground points start to float due to the copper being terminated to a steel body exposed to salt wash spashing up from the tires. If a car sits for more than a few days, The cold kills batteries as the electrlyte freezes, expands and warps the lead plates, casusing the battery to short out. I suspect that lithium Ion will be more resistant, however electrical systems just don't hold up in extreme climates and corrosive conditions. I suspect most people on this forum live in nice climates.

Also, a starter constanly re-starting an engine hudreds of times a day doesn't seem to be a great choice either. I suspect there will be a big after-market business in replacing starters on hybrids. Repair bills can sour the cheap cost of gas in a hurry.

http://members.cox.net/wdcox/hybrid.html

"We are all familiar with the way a conventional automobile engine sounds when starting. Things are much different with the Civic Hybrid. When you turn the key to the start position, the engine starts without the normal starter noise and there is no delay. Under normal starting conditions the engine is started by the powerful electric motor. There is a conventional 12 volt starter just in case the charge in the 144 volt battery pack is too low to use for starting the engine. However, I have had my Honda Civic Hybrid for over four years and have never heard it start with the conventional 12 volt starter. When you start the engine, it will be running before you can release the key and there is no cranking sound."


They start VERY quickly and far quieter than any other car I've seen. As for salt on the roads, in Maine, Massachusetts, New York and Vermont (just like California) hybrids (atleast the Prius and Civic Hybrid for sure, not sure about GM's) are covered by a 10year/150,000 mile warranty. Do you really think Honda/Toyota would put a product out there if they were going to have to make a bunch of warranty replacements due to salt before the warranty period expired? No.

It's almost funny how hybrids and electric cars have to overcome some of these false preconceived notions.