Are You Left Wing Or The Right Wing When It Comes To Conserving Oil?

Right wing 009.

With $4+ a gallon gas, the public will decide they want more fuel efficient vehicles. Markets work -- look at sales of large SUV's collasping to exemplify this. I despise the idea of the "Nanny Goverment" always telling us what to do. Let the consumers (who are adults) decide for themselves.

By the way, I don't get the Star Trooper pic as it relates to this article.

its storm trooper lol anyway i agree right wing all the way. everything the government touches it wrecks. Plenty of oil here to drill if they let us. the argument of it being 10 years away is silly so if it takes 10 years dont start now? makes no sense start 10 years from now and it will take 20 years. In the mean time drill here and at the same time work on alternatives. not that difficult.

Markanthony, thanks for the Star Wars correction.

In all seriousness, in 1996 the Senate and House passed legislation that would have allowed drilling in ANWR. This legislation was vetoed by President Clinton. One of the arguments by environmentalists opposing the drilling at the time was that it would take a decade to produce any oil. Imagine if we had this increased production capability in 2006 and now. It would make a difference.

When JFK gave the US a goal of landing on the moon before the end of the 60's we accomplished it.

I believe if we have a president that gives us a goal and something to work towards we can also accomplish it. It is stupid to believe that oil will be here forever. The sooner we start pumping money into alternative energies the lesser the burden will be on our children who will pay the price for our ignorance if we don't change now...

Factsrule, I don't think your "mission to the moon" example best suits this debate. NASA's work on the Apollo missions did not directly affect the everyday lives of Americans. The Federal Goverment dictating MPG does.

You are so wrong HScenterconsole.. The technologies that were derived from the 60's space missions have impacted our lives in so many ways.

My point is that the whole nation got behind the presidents goal. We need that kind of leadership now.

Factsrule, I think you are missing the point.

Uniting behind Kennedy's moon mission didn't directly affect the financial well being of the public.

Having the Feds MANDATE higher MPG means our cars will be more expensive. And not allowing us to drill in the US further elevates fuel prices. This creates hardship on the average American.

In principle, the government should act only when the private sector can't or won't act. If it is in the national interest to conserve fuel but people continue to waste it, then the government could put a cap on engine displacement or vehicle weight and/or raise fuel taxes to the point where people will be motivated to conserve fuel.

In the very long term we need not worry anyway as the sun beams down orders of magnitude more energy to us that we can ever use. In the medium term we need to conserve some oil in the ground, whether on land or offshore, so that future generations will have feed stock for making advanced plastics.

In the short term we need to displace about 10% of existing oil-based energy with alternative energies so as to tip the supply and demand equation away from oil which would likely reduce the price of oil by 20 or 30%.

Global warming and genetic modification of non-food plants like the oily jatropha plant will allow us to grow such plants in North America to be used in the production of totally renewable biofuels. BTW, some microbial processes for the manufacture of biofuels actually suck CO2 out of the atmosphere which should please the greenies.

Frankly on such things I pretty much tow the economist’s line: the government should not involve itself in the market except where there is a market failure and intervening does not cause a government failure. This is not a market failure, and therefore the government shouldn’t be involved. Incidentally, that last is not just some axiomatic theoretical assertion made by economists; there are rooms of information that prove the point over and over again- the government generally screws it up-i.e. there is a lot of government failure.

While I am thinking of it- it was acceptable for NASA to go to the Moon, so long as that is what society desired- as large, expensive scientific endeavors are market failures. This m.p.g. issue or even the issues of oil scarcity are not market failures. The two situations are not comparable. Now, were we talking about pollution, which essentially no internalized cost to the market, then by answer would be different.

It would go on, but I am afraid it will end up being pages long.

The market DOESN'T work...it's manipulated but it's nice to feel like you have the power...you don't.

That only works if people are willing to be responsible for their own actions and actually get involved with their government...something neither of which Americans do today. They don't take personal responsibility for anything and don't give a damn what their government is doing so long as it doesn't affect their playful lifestyles.

Democracy??? LOL...I don't think so.

Left Wing... We have to find an alternative to oil because it is finite.

Whether there is plenty of it or not, it is detrimental to us to continue using it.

I'm a third-way kinda guy. I think it will take a mix of aggressive goals, along with market incentives and govt-business working together to end our dependence on oil.

HS thats exactly what I am talking about. the argument that it would take too long. If it was dont then we would be seeing the benifits now. ANWR is a small area of 2000 acres that has nothing there. its like drilling the size of a postage stamp on a football feild. I agree with you HS

look at the government today. all earmarks and wasteful spending. Dec 7 1941 we were attacked at pearl harbor. 4 years later we defeted the japanese and the germans and got out of the great depression. sept 11 2001 our towers get destroyed. 2008 still a hole in the middle of manhatten and thats only 16 acres. yea i want the government telling me what to do.

That big hole in the middle of Manhatten is still there because it was created and maintained under a ignorant and stupid Republican administration.

before someone corrects my grammer, I know that it should have been "an" instead of "a" before ignorant.. Just a typo....

The reason it took us so long to defeat the Japanese was because of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the Liberal Congress. Even back then the Libs hated to spend money on the military and our military was weak. But, after Pearl Harbor the Libs had no choice and then came all the equipment to beat the hell of the enemy.

Today the Libs don't want to become energy independant and drill for oil offshore or on land. They think hybrids are going to save the day and prevent anymore Global Warming.

That's what happens when you smoke pot all day and get stuck on tupid.

...spoken from first hand experience. That explains a lot.

Is that also why it took so long to defeat the Germans?

"That big hole in the middle of Manhatten is still there because it was created and maintained under a ignorant and stupid Republican administration."

get your facts straight, the reason the hole is still there is because the owner of the land and the insurance company fought for many years over how much the land was valued at, then the competition winning design came in way over price, and the owner feels like the american people should pick up more of the tab...pretty sure none of this had anything to with the republican adminsitration, so next time before you spew typical petty banter, get your facts straight, or just keep making yourself like ignorant.

my point isnt what admin is doing it my point is government messes things up constantly.

Due to technological inertia I believe that a combination of the two is needed. I also think that the government should encourage the development of new technologies in turn spurring growth of a sustainable economy not based on fossil fuels. In the end, everyone benefits, except for oil companies, but they could diversify beforehand.

Like most Americans, I think I am somewhere in the middle.

Most Americans don't agree with raising taxes, so you are on the left.

HS, Kennedy's moon program was worth every penny as it allowed exotic technologies to leap forward. Technological progress for military or space purposes inevitably ends up with huge downstream civilian spinoff technologies that advance medicine and many manufacturing processes.

As for economic hardships, sometimes we have to grin and bear it in the short term in order to reap long term benefits including the well-being of future generations.

Thank you EnnNorak!

You expressed my point better than I should have done.

Drilling for off shore oil and in Alaska is like putting a bandaid on the hoover dam when it has a major leak.

Short term solutions due nothing for the future of our children and our great nation. It is time for responsible leadership in this country and for the last 8 years we have had no leadership or goals. I believe we have take several leaps backwards under the current administration.

bmwman, I think you suffer from Bush derangement syndrome. While true this admin has done nothing to develop our proven oil resources, the Clinton admin had 8 years and "Al Gore" and did absolutely nothing.

In fact the Democrats thwarted every attempt to expand energy production in the US (oil,nuclear,etc). So both sides of the aisle are to blame. We need to develop every source of energy we can(drill here-drill now) with the goal of weaning ourselves of non-renewable sources simultaneously.

The two parties now represent a clear distinction in their approach to this issue. Democrats are no longer the forward thinking group that JFK represented..they say we need alternative forms and plug in autos, but they have no intelligent way on how to get from here to there while portecting our national security interests and breaking the $700 Billion per year transfer of wealth to questionable nations.

Game on..

ICON, I don't want to get into a lengthy debate over the differing party issues, BUT:

Look at our national debt figure.. It went from billions of dollars in surplus to TRILLIONS of dollars in the RED... Appropriate considering red is the color of the Republican party.

I know all the issues and the facts so no need to try and educate me.

For the last 8 years we have been governed by a president that wears a dunce cap. We all know Cheney is the one pulling the strings anyway.. Cheney is looking out for corporate America, while the middle class gets screwed.

Any way you try and spin it, the facts are the facts.

bmwman1963,
Let's not spin the facts, as you say. I'll lay out some info that you know, but perhaps others do not.

Debt and deficit are two different things, as you know but leave aside from your sermon. You also conveniently left out the growth of GDP in correlation of the debt. Furhtermore, even during times of a "budget surplus", the debt has grown. The debt grew every year that Clinton was in office, just as it has since GW took office. Under GW, the debt has grown at a higher rate than under Clinton, GDP has grown at a much faster rate than the debt under GW. This is a good way to relate the debt to the economy.

Using the debt as a scare tactic to vote one way or another only works on underinformed indivituals.
Vote for who you like, but if you are going to use propaganda, please do so in a more intellegient, informative manner.

i think "bmwman1963" drank the kool-aid, everyone understands that drilling is not a short term solution, but it is a long term prevention. like many have said before, if we would have drilled in 96 when Clinton vetoed it, then we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

side note: the billions in surplus you talk about came at the expense of our military, bases closed, weapon development slashed. all the things that need strong support.

second side note: greatest invention to come out othe space program - velcro...that has changed ALL of our lives...and this wasn't sarcastic either.

Yes but we don't need to have everything invented by the military. That has been the lame excuse for making new products....we need to kill millions of people so we can make a better flashlight.

I live like a lefty, but side with the righty.

I have a different approach compared to the average American. I bike to/for work and drive for pleasure. I honestly see higher gas prices as a good thing. I'd like to see cars that get much better MPG when used for mundane tasks, but for recreational driving I think it is not all that important.

Strange enough, I side w/ the conservatives. I made this choice myself and think others should do so only if they wish. I'd personally rather have a gas guzzling perf. car in my garage than drive a fuel miser on the street.

What's upsetting about this whole fuel-economy thing is that it may not be long before the only things on the road are cookie-cutter, transportation appliances. Anything but a Camry and a Focus might dissapear from our landscape. What's the point of life then I ask, what?!?!

I don't think the Chevy Volt looks no where near as bland as a toyo camry or a ford focus.

FactsRule,

You are correct. That, the Mondeo (once it comes here), the Malibu all look great.

Problem is, at 35mpg and possibly 50mpg CAFE rules, we all will be driving 50hp hybrids that do 0-62mph in 18seconds.

I have a new slogan for McCain: "If you want more of the same vote McCain."

It is time for a change.

i have concluded that you are just an idiot.

I have concluded that Godfather is right (correct)

Why do we have to choose one or the other. How stupid can we Americans be? Every time i hear about Obama vs. McCain I want to scream, why can't we have both?

We also need to ensure the survival of some of the up-and-coming alternatives (like sythetic petroleum from algae) in the event that oil takes a massive drop in price.

If synthetic petroleum cost $50 a barrel, we need to make sure that if oil drops below $50, we still buy our alternatives first, or something like that.

The fuel economy regulations are absolute BS. They just hurt Detroit and hurt people who have to conduct business with heavier vehicles. Moron politicians think that they can just spit some fanciful number like 55mpg and it's just magically going to happen. We'll see how many people are happy about the CAFE rules once their lawn-service bill doubles or they are unable to afford a truck to tow their boats. Seriously, we should have a variable gas tax to ensure that gas stays around 2.70-3.10 a gallon (USD, US Gallon). This way, average people will buy more efficient cars, families can afford to have a minivan or a larger CUV (ex: GMC Acadia), and businesses can afford to run their equipment & trucks.

Not the least of which, we should revert back to the 2006 diesel emissions regulations, focusing on engine-out emissions and phasing in particulate filters and Add-Blue injections only as the industry really has a reliable grip on these technologies. A diesel truck with a particulate filter loses something like 2mpg or so (not to mention the extra initial costs and warranty costs). 2mpg is a huge number when it means 24mpg vs 22mpg. Not only that, but if the emissions reg's went back to 2006 levels (just for the short term until the other technologies have been perfected), we would have a lot more light-weight pickups (Ford Rangers and F-150 sized) with 4 and 6 cyl diesels, getting close to 30mpg.

Leave it up to politicians........

So I guess you are not voting this year neutral...

Somehow I don't see Obama and McCain sharing a joint presidential ticket.

You are on one side or the other.

I mis-spoke when I said I wanted both...

I meant to say I would like to see a range of things happen to minimize our dependence on foreign energy. It's stupid to argue McCain is the only way, or Obama is the only way. Unfortunately, America in general has too many problems (which I don't care to start debating) which allows politicians to see things only one way or another.

As for being neutral, I'm voting for Michael Jordan.

Yes, we should do a number of things to minimize our dependence on foreign enery, I do agree with you on that point.

BUT: exploiting off shore drilling and Alaska's wildlife preserves is not the answer either.

We need a leader that will jolt the American people into forward thinking technologies, unlike what McCain would do, which is slap a bandage on a hemmoraging wound.

sorry for the misspells in the above comment.. Trying to type to fast...

One thing we should do is try not to piss off oil-producing countries just to seem like tough-guys. (while in the meantime we invest heavily in efficiency and alternatives). John McCain talking smack about Russia is only going to result in higher energy costs...thats it. Let's face it, if the good-ol-boys in Moscow get pissed about, oh - I don't know - Kosovo, Georgia, etc, they could cut gas and oil for a while sending our markets into free-fall.

However, at the same time, you have to be tough as a president. Kind of hard to say..

McCain talking smack about Russia is not going to result in higher oil prices, at least not for the US. Maybe Europe, which uses a lot of Russian-sourced fuel, but believe it or not, the Russians themselves are leery of turning off the petrodollars. They see how quickly the West is adapting to higher petroleum prices -- driving is down, SUVs sales are down, fuel demand is down, alternatives are being actively brought into fruition. In fact, as time goes on, I dare say oil will fall to $50 per barrel, if not lower, due to our higher use of alternative energy. It will take a bit of time, but it will happen.

Problem is, ever since oil speculation has become wildly un-regulated, any sign of energy instability in the world results in a jump in price, usually irrespective of the significance of the incident. We can thank Enron / Clinton for this.

After reading the news from Bloomberg.com about how OPEC takes in more petrodollars that US Tax revenues, i think its time to reign in speculators and do everything possible to minimize foreign energy use. We don't need these people with all of our hard-earned money.

Here we are in the industrialized part of the world, coming up with technologies and heavily investing in universities and research, etc, making pathetic returns compared to the Saudi's who just sit around all day and pump oil. Sad, truly sad.

The truth of the matter is that we're too short-sighted, as individuals, to do anything until it's too late. I've always thought that CAFE was a stupid way of doing things--especially when some car companies do big cars better and some do small cars better. But, at least, it was something semi-positive. The fact is that we've known all along that oil is a finite resource. Any of us over 40 remember the oil crises in the 70s. Anyone under 40 who didn't think it would happen in their lifetime failed, like most, to have an understanding of history and the fact that people tend to repeat mistakes until they can't any more.

There are several ways the government (we the people collaboratively--the government isn't some alien force in which we've no say) could encourage less fuel consumption, any of which could be phased in to help prevent the poor from suffering too much. First, and I know this would be really popular here, is to do what President Nixon did: lower the speed limit. Enforce it with speed cameras, like Britain, if needed.

Second, raise the gas tax. Gas isn't over £1/litre in Britain and Germany because of market pressures. It's because they've made a decision to be thoughtful about what they're doing, unlike most of us in this hemisphere.

Third, strengthen the gas guzzler tax and make it apply to SUVs and pick-ups. There's no reason someone buying a car getting 15 mpg should have to pay thousands, but someone buying an SUV getting 12 mpg pays nothing. On the other side of things, give credits and subsidies to mass transit passes, scooter purchases, purchases of hybrids, diesels... (you get the picture)

Fourth, create an annual pollution/gas guzzler tax or base registration fees on pollution/fuel consumption.

I don't know which or what combination of these or other measures would be best, in the end. However, government needs to do something. If we'd continued on the road towards conservation and alternative energy that Nixon and Carter put us on, this wouldn't have happened. Instead, Reagan, Clinton and the Bushes decided to screw the future. Unfortunately, this is the beginning of the future that they screwed.

While I agree that this would work, I don't understand why everyone proposes outrageous government control ideas to solve their problems. I don’t understand why individuals cannot just put their personal plans into action and change the world in front of them. As a commuter cyclist and an automotive enthusiast, I can see the positive effect that commuter cycling has had on my personal world. I never intended to see these results, but I do enjoy the benefits. I’d still do it, if the benefits were reduced.

My advice to you, slow down when YOU drive. Drive less. Use public transportation or ride a bike to replace a trip in the car. Quit worrying about what the Joneses are doing. Worry about yourself. Believe it or not, this will have a positive effect on YOUR world.

Yes that's all great Shred but who's going to build your public transport system? Your next door neighbor? And with what? Money you don't want to give up?

Americans want to have everything but with no sacrifice and with no pain.

I was stating that HE should do this. Imagine for a minute, I have a drinking problem, but you don't. You drink a little, but it is in control. I cannot stop myself. I determine the best thing for EVERYONE is to place EVERYONE in rehab.

Personally, I own (2) cars that get an average of 20mpg. My entire family drives ~8,000 miles per year. Personally I have not filled my gas guzzler since April, as I ride a bike. My wife drives our son to daycare when the weather is inclimate. I do not use public transportation, unless you consider city streets public transportation. I do not think the govt. needs to mandate me into a more fuel efficient car.

Public transportation should be implemented at the local and state level, with little federal govt. influence. The public highway system is a different story.

I am a liberal that believes in small government. What a conundrum. I feel that the majority of human beings are capeble of taking care of themselves. Human beings are parasites though. If you were a true enviromentalist, you would kill yourself to save the planet.

Well...you can't tell the government to butt out of you business when you are fine with them causing havoc half way around the world on your behalf.

Besides this is YOUR government...YOU need to get involved with your government...YOU need to be part of the decision making of your government. You claim it's a democracy? Then act accordingly.

Noz, ha ha, what does your statement have to do with anything?

What do you mean? You're talking about government butting out of your business aren't you?

noz,
I take care of my own problems in life. Govt. is not necessary for energy issues at this moment!
Those who need help suck at personal finance.

""noz,
I take care of my own problems in life. Govt. is not necessary for energy issues at this moment!
Those who need help suck at personal finance.""

Not everyone is as fortunate as you. Not everyone has a good paying job. Most people who get ahead have had help...who says they haven't is lying.

Shredmo and GodFatherSHM: Ignorance is not a virtue of mine.

Go ahead and rant and rave all you want, but this country is in dire straits and mostly because of this stupid administration we have had for the last 8 years.

Spin it anyway you want but most Americans know this to be a fact.

I think you two drank one of Bush's cocktails from the 70's...

wow, if i drank the cocktails from the 70's that is impressive, considering the fact that I wasn't born until the 80's.

The Bush Administration has not wronged our nation at all in the last 8 years, I do blame the republicans for not getting permanent tax cuts in place while they had control, not overriding Clinton's veto on drilling, and I blame my fellow American's for being stupid to falling for the blame Bush mentality the media has taken.

So the economy is not up 10%, it is still up, yes it's only about 1%, but that is still positive. The housing market is not affecting the entire nation, mainly the Coasts, here in the midwest real estate agents are reporting recording quarters. So the economy isn't negative, Iraq is safer and free, house prices are settling to a more regular level, your right...this country is in bad shape.

Maybe the space program didn't invent it, but "Velcro got its first break when it was used in the aerospace industry to help astronauts maneuver in and out of bulky space suits" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velcro)

next time GET ALL THE INFO before you try to be a smart ass.

Godfather:

"The Bush Administration has not wronged our nation at all in the last 8 years"

Uh....whatever you're smoking is working. You're delusional if you think this administration hasn't wronged this country. That's just plain fkin retarded.

SHREDMO:

Just to make you feel like the dumb, ignorant jackass you are, VELCRO was developed by a Swiss engineer by the name of Georges de Mestral in 1948.

We didn't get Velcro from the space program. But what we did get was an accleration of computer technology that has enabled idiots like you to spew their unchecked comments on subjects they know little or nothing about..

Excuse me SHREDMO I meant to address that to GODFATHERDHM..

bmwman1963,
I never mentioned velcro in any of my posts. Please re-read them all then appologize. to this post.
Thanks,
Shred More.

Shred More: I apologize to you for the name mistake, you did not mention velcro. My mistake.. It was GodfatherSHM.

I got to ask, why is your name FactsRule, when the mistake was made by bmwman1963? I think the agents and the owner of this site have a bit of work to do here. I am currently embarassed to be associated with this site.

Obviously Factrules and bmwman1963 are the same person flooding the board.

Oh, and look, I was deboosted for pointing out the obvious. Hmmm, I wonder how many times this user deboosted me through his/her various usernames.

Shredmo, I accidentally de-boosted one of your messages when I was trying to boost you. I was sloppy. At that time, though, I wasn't the only one who had de-boosted you.

I am truly sorry, particularly because I find most of your posts rational. Please accept my apology.

cdoke,
That's cool. I have done that by mistake a time or two. Thanks for beeing cool!

I realize my posts aren't always the most agreeable to all parties, but my goal is to be relatively level headed :)

FactsRule & bmwman1963,
If your username (factsrule) says anything about your values, then what does having multiple usernames say about your virtues?

I find it unethical to have several usernames, especially when using them to vote against other opinions as well as bolster the approval of your opinions.

LOL, yeah right...

Back to the subject question... Are you a lefty or a righty regarding conserving oil?

The question itself is so stereotypical. The assumption is that the left wants to conserve and the right wants to piss away oil at every turn.

As one pretty well pegged on the right, I can say that I would love to get better mileage in my car. I'd love to get more energey from the sun, the wind, the surf and raging rivers... but the value of it is lost when the cost to get there sets us back farther than cost of the so called crisis in the first place. Like most things, there needs to be balance and reason. Government can incentivise development of new technology, but it can also ease the burden by letting the market drill where it needs or wants to.

and i feel you hit it 100% on the head...

i got distracted from defending conservative's i never actually responded to the question.

Short term:
Drill here, there and everywhere.
Accept the risk that a spill may pollute a coastline, but so what. They clean themselves up eventually.That's an assumed business risk.
Long term:
Moon shot - Manhattan project to get us off this crack cocaine for our energy needs. Build 100 new Nuclear power plants with the goal to have nuclear power suppling 80%+ of total energy needs.

And just what do you propose we do with all the nuclear waste we will have to dispose of from the 100 new Nuclear power plants?

yes because raising taxes is such a good idea. let's reward the people who don't take any risk and penalize the people that took the risk and invested in the beginning.

most of us can thank corporate profits for the living that we have today, whether it is the transportation to get the goods to the store or the persons that work at the stores themselves. Without those "bad" corporations all of those people would be without jobs. So let's tax them more, and then watch as employee benefits drop even lower. If you think the CEO's are going to cut their pay you are just misguided. Take a look at your cable/phone bills, all of those taxes/fees are government imposed things that just got handed down to the consumer. Same thing if you tax the corporate profits.

Off shore drilling is to prevent us from having to rely of foreign oil, so when events like what is going on in Russia/Georgie right now we do not have to worry about the direct impact it would have on our economy.

I'm sure the pork barrel spending in the latest budget by the democrats has nothing to do with the debt? Sounds like the liberals are lining their friends pockets without any care for the U.S. Citizens.

I know you feel that drilling off shore is the answer and a lot of other people feel that way too, but we need a plan for the long term. Until their is no incentive to drill for oil we will be addicts for the oil company dealers. If we put our money into alternative energy programs instead of drilling for more oil we could free ourselves from the grip of foreign nations and involving ourselves in situations that cost us billions and billions of dollars to maintain.

Godfather...

You say some of the most retarded shit I've ever read. You are the truly classic bleeding heart conservative who cries for billion dollar companies but not for individual human beings. Is your head screwed on correctly?

I'm sure the corporations are shedding a tear when they shaft you with their profits...let's all bust out the violin for Exxon because their profits are "within" acceptable corporate norms.

Amazing...no wonder this country is overrun by greedy idiots.

You can always buy stock in these "profitt making companies" and they will share it with you. When corps make a profitt they pay dividens to investors such as 401K s and the like. If the Bush administration helps just its buddies, I'm to say they have a lot of buddies and ther called shareholders.

I see a combination of both L & R on this issue but being that Bush will surely be remebered as the worst President in American history for his failure to initiate/support forward thinking energy I would probably go L on this issue to initiate the change this country so badly needs.

Our coastlines clean themselves on their own eventually. AgentOrange, that has to be one of the most stupid comments I have ever heard or read anywhere. So, I guess all the endangered marine life that will be lost will come back eventually too? This is what irritates me to no end with most right wingers. They only think about today and filling their pockets with money and their surroundings with material things. No consideration for the generations that follow and will inherit their enviromental sins.

People like you seem to think humans have more power than Mother Nature. The earth will always heal itself -- even if it means getting rid of the species existing atop its surface, because more always come around. The coastlines will not clean themselves in a short period of time, but they will clean themselves in the (very) long run. And yes, wildlife recovers too, again, in the (very) long run. You think of time in human terms. To the earth, human time is akin to the blink of an eye.

gooch, you are correct in the statement that mother earth will heal herself in time, but a much more intelligent statement would have been: Will Mother Earth heal herself in time for the survival of the human species or any current species for that matter.

I thank you in trying to educate me, but I believe I am very familiar with the subject matter considering my background in Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Quantum Mechanics.

When was the last oil spill of consequence from an offshore oil rig? At $100+ per barrel, there is a great incentive to collect every drop. The oceans do clean them selves in fairly short order. There are thousands of places all over the ocean floor that seep oil naturally.

On the other side - tankers are where the risk is. So getting oil from foreigh sources poses a greater risk than drilling it for ourselves domestically or off our own shores.

Why do you think "Mother Earth" cares about healing for the good of human existence? They way we treat "her", the sooner we're gone, the better.

And I don't think you can logically declare Republicans or right wingers the detroyers of other forms of life. We all live in houses in cities with roads and use resources at the cost of nature. Don't just look at oil, look at human presence (including your own) and thinkg of all the poor animals that have died because of the space you take up. Now go join Peta or something.

I have a background in chemistry as well, and work in the field. I'm not trying to educate you; I'm stating facts. It is not logical to worry about the earth healing itself; it will no matter what we humans do it it.

Your statement is so illogical when trying to comment on my opinion.

My point is: Yes, the Earth will heal itself with or without or intervention, but I would like for the human species to still be around when it does heal.

Do you get it now? I want to think people are smarter than draining the planets natural resources and exploiting them for temporary gain, but thus far we as a whole have done exactly that.

Clean energy is the only way to go. Not nuclear, because of the half life and storage problems, not oil because it is limited and produces carbon emissions, not coal because of the exact same thing.

We have enough technology today that if world leaders would set mandates and goals we could actually in our lifetime see a change for the better.

Another country that got away relatively easily from its war crimes is Japan. If one counts civilian casualties only, Japan's invasions were far more brutal than Germany's invasions. They killed, enslaved and raped millions of civilians. Japan was the only country to use chemical weapons, and it pioneered biological warfare by dropping plague, cholera and anthrax germs on Chinese villages. The number of people submitted to medical experiments in Japan's secret labs is much higher than the number of German prisoners who suffered the same fate. Nobody will ever know the number of "sex slaves" who were used (probably more than one million) and who died (sources say up to 90%). Prisoners of war in German camps were not mistreated (only 1% died) but prisoners of war in Japanese camps were used as slave labourers (and 31% died). If one includes China and all the occupied countries (Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc), Japan caused the death of about 12 million civilians, far more than those caused by Germany.

R U really that F$$KING STUPID? German prisoners of war in camps were not mistreated, only 1% died. Get real dumb ass. History was meant to be studied and to learn from, not to distort and twist to your own beliefs. My God, what U have just stated is an insult to all races and countries. Even the Germans acknowledge the death camps under Hitler's regime.

You are seriously living in your own little world..

By the way EL34, to what end is your above stupid comment?

This post is about right wing and left wing energy issues..

bimmerfan25, thanks for the backup. I am so sick of all these right wing dip sh_ts.. They have screwed up our country so bad that it is now loathed throughout much of the world, where it was once revered.

I am so freakin' embarrassed every time George Bush opens his mouth. Every time I see him on the tele I cringe at what might come out of his mouth. He never fails to disappoint my expectations by his ignorance and lack of knowledge almost everything.

God, I so hope that the American people get it right with the upcoming election. I don't think we can take 4 more years of these stooges.

Bush and Cheney are smart they know what they are doing. They are raping the treasury for their corporate buddies starting wars giving out no bid contracts and making sure American oil companies get all the leases to the Iraqi oil while taxpayers get stuck with the bill. And we need both solutions you know what would really help oil prices higher margin rates on futures contracts, with 15:1 or more leverage on futures contracts there is a ridiculous amount of speculation in the mkt eventually the price will come down but think of how many people will be pushed to the brink of bankrupcy before it does

It is confirmed, EL34 is a former Nazi from WWII and a current day neo-Nazi.

So on another note EL34, so we know you hate Japan partly because they brutalized many part of Asia, but why do you hate the rest of Asia?

I'm neither wing...we need to do what is best for our future and for the future of this planet if we want to sustain ourselves.

Right-wingers believe market forces will take care of everything even though they are same fkers who manipulate the market.

Left wingers want complete control even though the people IN control are the vile scum who got us into this mess to begin with.

All the while they dumb down the public so there is no public participation but only consumption.

We're headed towards a very very dark place in the next few decades.

I agree with everything except the impending doom of the coming decades.

What we really need is to cultivate the ability of a non-Democrat or -Republican party to get elected based on a platform of "for the people" instead of "for the party".

What most Americans want (based on peer-reviewed research for a school project, not a radio show or pulling it out of my arse) is exactly that, not a left or right wing based answer.

The silent majority is soundly in the middle, but it is the raving looneys on the extremes that get all the attention and brainwash their respective sheeple.

Do you know that almost one year ago, there was speculation of a dream ticket to push that non-partisan agenda in this year's election? It consisted of (wait for it)

Obama and McCain.

I agree with you...but that's not going to happen...and that's why I don't have such a bright outlook on things.

Let's hope I'm wrong. But I doubt it.

my goal is to use as much oil products as possible in my lifetime. the sooner we use up all of the oil, the sooner the money of people who actually contribute to the greater good of mankind will stop going to things like ski resorts in the middle of the desert

This topic drives me nuts because I hear all the lawyers on Capitol Hill who apparently haven't taken an economics 101 class in their entire life say that drilling for oil will only have a moderate effect on oil prices.

This shows that not only do they have zero understanding of supply side economics, but also zero understanding of futures markets.

The price of oil flies through the roof on mid-east tensions (just tensions, not less drilling) so what do you think will happen when the USA opens the ban on offshore drilling and floods the futures market with supply?

It's easy...just look at what happened when Bush lifted the executive ban on offshore drilling putting enormous pressure on congress to do the same- in case you haven't been watching the news lately, oil has dropped more than 25%.

WAKE UP FOLKS! Stops listening to all of this crap about filling your tires to improve efficiency and let's drill. If congress lifts the ban, my prediction is that oil will be trading at $75 a barrel or less within a month.

Yes, save oil where you can, Yes, conserve on energy when you can, Yes, be a good steward of our planet, but be happy and if that requires the purchase of an H1 then go for it...welcome to FREEDOM!

STEALING profits from oil companies is not an energy plan (it's communism) and who next - the pharma companies, the retailers? Not the America that I know...
STEALING

Typical right wing attitude and mentality, "Take care of my ass today and screw all of the rest of you for tomorrow."

Screw the planet, screw the middle class, screw everyone but me, unless I'm getting laid..

Don't you guys get it, the right wing is full of sh_t!

Your arguments are worthless bimmerfan and factsrule.

The very thought that you actually believe that Bush and Cheney are profiting over the futures market makes your ignorance shine bright.

How am I screwing the middle class? If anything I'm looking out for the middle class. Do the "rich" pay less for gas than everyone else. I am trying to LOWER the price of gas FOR THE MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASS.


Love the "take care of my a$$" quote - who do you think owns the oil companies?

hint: it's not a couple of white guys from TX

The oil companies are 97% owned by the stockholders who include teachers pension funds, police and fire pension funds, and countless mutual funds which the average Joe has invested in via his/her 401K. Point being...by the government STEALING oil company profits your only hurting the middle class via the lack of dividend distribution into their retirement funds.

The stupidity/ignorance level of you people is starting to become mentally exhausting.

Aside, what is the basis for your argument? We are not getting preferential pricing on Iraq oil so not sure how America is benefitting or how this would effect the market.

Typical responses from people of little intellectual substance....have fun voting for Obama..I'm sure he'll make everything all better for you...HOPE!....CHANGE!...HOPE!....CHANGE!

BMW740Z4 -

Are you one of those douchebags who drive around in a Hummer and have SUPPORT THE TROOPS stickers on them?

I'd bet you are or wish you were....what an aspiration.

Man...I do seriously hope alot of you losers who are so gungho on war don't have kids....or if you do, I do hope your kids see war...you deserve nothing less.

Well stated BMW740Z4,

When confronted with facts the Left Wing comes off with emotional name-calling and wild conspiracy theories.(not to mention they often times become irrational in their anger and hatred, which I find curious given thier supposed open minds and acceptance of all kinds of people)

Logic does not seem to play a role in any conversation with them. I have been an independent for many years,but I have found it impossible to have an intelligent discussion with ultra-liberals without them becoming over emotional or resulting to name calling or not being able to substantiate any of their points.

As much as I disagree with some of the positions on the ultra-right, I have always been able to have an adult and tempered conversation.

Another balanced individual who is able to hear both side of the argument checking in in support of BMWZ$)Z$ and ICON.

Bimmerfan, you repeatedly refer to these right wing blah blah blah as sheep, yet you seem patently unable (or unwilling) to hear what they are saying.

There is very, very little difference between an extreme right and left wing nut. Neither of them can comprehend that, so it is always amusing to see their response to that fact.

nozferatu,

When/If BMW builds a Hummer variant, I assure you I will be first in line to pick one up for the only purpose of slapping a "support the troops" bumper sticker on it and driving around your neighborhood.

You really hit the nail on the head...wonderfully insightful post.

BMW740Z4:

Well...please do that. That way we'll at least know where the douchebags are.

Once again...another insightful post. Bet you were saving that one up for a while.

Q. Why doesn’t Obama want to drill for oil?

A. He thinks it’s a secret money-making scheme between President Bush, T. Boone Pickens, and Jed Clampett.

:-D

EL34 I have to admit your wrong on this one....the only reason Obama doesn't want to drill for oil is because the teleprompter hasn't told him that he needs to yet!

bimmerfan LISTEN TO YOURSELF.

What a freakin' concept. Sell our oil to China in 10 years. Seriously. STOP, and try to rationally think about that.

THAT IS A GREAT THING AND EXACTLY WHY WE SHOULD START DRILLING!!!!!

How much do you think a barrel will cost in ten years? How much money do you think we will make selling China (and India) our oil? How much investment and inflow of money will that bring us, and how can you think that is BAD?

Think for yourself, man. Stop listening to you fire breathing left wing extremist propaganda and join the logical middle.

And do you even comprehend the deficit and how it relates to GDP? Look at the US's rate compared to Japan's, and then we'll attempt to talk about that.

Amen CTSV. (ahem, not a religous amen ;)

We need to find alternatives...not drill.

There are other issues we need to face other than just having an oil shortage.

It's an environmental disaster.

I'd venture to say many of you who want drilling/war/etc have no children.

If you don't...that's sad. Because either you're extremely stupid or simply don't give a shit about your kids' futures. Very sad indeed.

BMW740Z4 and EL34, I have been reading a lot of your posts and I do believe you both can be declared mentally incompetent.

I hope your intellectually challenged or for a better word retarded comments are not your actual beliefs.

If they are, you have both been brainwashed by the Republican Spin Cycle. I'm confident that most Americans are not as lame as the two of you and that we will make a change for the better come November 4th.

Your comments are both worthless and stupid. It shows how little you really do know about the Republican Party.

"who supports the republinans? religous, uneducated people (all the rednecks/hillbillies)"

Well said, EL34 and all his cronies here are exactly that.

Your post has absolutely no substance but to call them names and disagree with them.

Quantum Matrix,

You said that "I've been brainwashed by the Republican Party" and it shows "how little I know about the Republican Party"...I think you're on to something there.

The only thing I been brainwashed by is raw common sense and logic. No thoughtful argument/substance from you, just name calling.

43LE,

Yeah just like all of those idiots on Wall Street...and in Corporate America....and Bill Gates....and Bill Buckley....and all of those Small Business Owners, etc. What a bunch of uneducated rednecks!

Next time you go to vote in a Democratic Primary, look around you. All of those people around you who didn't bother to shower or shave, with the multi-colored hair and facial piercings, with the sour looks on their faces because they loath their existence in America, who left their cash register or local communist 501c(3) to go vote...KNOW THAT THOSE ARE YOUR PEOPLE.

It appears from most of your comments on this site that you are the one doing the name calling.

I have many Republican Right Wing friends and we engage in healthy, productive debates often, it is only when someone like you, who in my opinion has a supremacist attitude, do I find the person a blemish on the face of his on party and belief system.

I refuse to believe that you've ever had a healthy conversation in your life...and doubt you have any "right wing friends".

My point was that there is little substance in any of your posts...no facts...no remedies...just mud-slinging and cursing. I think you starting to get it though...baby steps.

I digress, you are a hopeless cause. The only thing we probably agree on is the car's we both drive.. BMW's...

BMW74...

Got to France and learn something about how a real democracy actually works...with all its issues, problems, fk-ups and all.

As far as people like Bill Gates, yeah...I'm sure he's sitting there thinking about how to make an extra buck for your ass.

If you're so gungho about fighting/oil...go and freaking enlist....disappear for a while and get your own oil.

Yes we can agree on that...surprised you drive one with your political views.

What are you waiting for then?

Stop wasting our time and go and enlist.

Enlisting has nothing to do with it...and besides I've already served. Let's leave all of the gross anti-Americanism out of it.

BTW, What language would you be speaking right now if it wasn't for us?

Obviously I was previously directing my post to Quantum

Yeah you've served...sure you have...as have all the other armchair generals who claim they have served.

Again, even if you've served...go serve again....you shouldn't be here.

Are you truly that arrogant to think speaking another language is actually a bad thing? Freaking ey...you're one ignorant racist jerk. You do know there are other countries that exist other than the USA right? And the world is round too?

Why don't you go and say that to some Native Indian...you know...the kind that was here before you which you decimated? I'm sure they didn't speak your language either.

Wow...just wow.

I take that back BMW740Z4 you take up to much air space, how about transending into a different universe.

One that will perpetuate your futile attempts at a human existence.

nozferatu,

You being a frenchie and a haughty ingorant one at that (I actually like Sarkozy) I believe the answer is: Deutsche.

Now I'm a racist...for....?

Because I speak three languages....?

For an engineer you can't add things up to well. Better hit the books again buddy.

Quantum,

Back to name calling...and really smart name calling at that "go to another universe" ....priceless. Take it back - I don't care. I imagine that your life is painful enough and feel no desire to offer you any ill will. Best of luck to you.

A frenchie? I don't even know WTF you are talking about.

Oh I think you know perfectly well why you're being labeled a racist....don't play dumb.

Big deal you speek three languages...and oh yes...I believe you of course.

Add what things up? What the hell are you talking about? Look...you're not on the Bill O'Reilly show...no need to say bullshit stuff that has no relevance to the crap you were spewing before.

Since you don't have an answer to anything you were called on before, don't worry...it's OK...we understand;)

What a cry baby this one..I'm convinced you are all but 12. And as for frenchie...I'm talking about your lauding for France.

Keep cussing and making a fool of yourself. If by remote chance you live in America, please leave...you are an absolute disgrace. I hope that your parents aren't alive to see what you've become.

I know that they could make vehicles/trucks that acquire that mileage now! I am a strong believer that we should have an educated public that knows the ins and outs on this topic to pass a test on this subject in order to vote on what should be done! An ignorant democracy is just as bad as a communist government!

Right-wingers are by definition, brainwashed. Their simple minds are easily manipulated. Patriotism is a fire easily stoked in them, with the use of a few choice phrases and flag displays.

The liberal mind however, is far more developed. Just to prove a point here, 91.3 percent of ALL US patents relating to invention, science, technology, are held by people of liberal leanings from the blue states. 24 red states in the country, have contributed less than 9 percent of all US patents, with Texas accounting for 6 percent by itself.

THe right wing brain however, is easily fooled by its clever masters (Rove, Cheney et al) into believing that it DOES NOT matter, if one drives a 7,000 lb gas-hog SUV, because eventually the markets will correct it. MArkets do NOT self correct until millions of lives have been negatively impacted. In any case, as far as oil goes, here's another fact. 92% of all Republican contributions have come from Big Oil. Its amazing how coincidentally close these 2 figures are- 92 % of oil donor-ship for the right wingers, and (100-92%) for intellectual contribution to the country.

And as far as NON-SCIENTIFIC contribution to the arts and literature is concerned, though there aren't any percentages here- go figure: how much of right-wing art or writing is really considered a time honored classic? I'd venture- close to none.

THe US cannot afford another day of right-wing oil-blood soaked rule. THe US needs to downsize cars now.

Ennorak, BMW1963, good posts. EL34 of OC- please button it will you? BTW- the OC in SoCal, is generally considered a monumental example of waste, preening and total superficiality.

Lyall,
Isn't the OC (Los Angeles/Hollywood) a liberal metropolis?

Are these patents held by liberal people, or people living in liberal areas?

Every person I know who holds a patent is conservative, most of whom are engineers. I realize there are liberal patent holders, I am just making a point.

When it comes to scientists and artist, I'd agree that the majority of these people are liberal. The question I have for you, would Darwin have been a liberal, or a conservative? Why?

Though I don't entirely agree with your post, it is well written. It dissapoints me that you end your post stating that bmwman1963 has any credibility on this forum because he clearly does not.

My point has always been that it is better to have a society where people want to be the change, rather than a few mandating that people have to change. As individuals, we need to use less energy period. I have made a change and a difference, have you?

Ha ha, no one can answer my question. Clearly several people have read it. What a bunch of BS here.

I do agree with your point that people should want to be the change, but most of your other statements are clearly just speculation.

I believe that people do want to be the change and will do so by voting change in November.

It has long been time for a changing of the guard.

Quantum,
That speculation is based off of the original posters speculation. Yes, it is speculation, that is my point.
Some of the people here are informed, others are just fanboys of a certain political model. I respect anyone's viewpoint, so long as it is well thought out and makes some sort of point. The rest is just jibber-jabber :) You are one of those people who I respect, though you would have even more credibility if you were to not use profanity when making an accurate point.

Shredmo,

I don't know where Lyall is getting his stats about patent originators' political leanings, but my impression from working for technical companies for 20+ years is that the companies own the majority of technical patents out there. The big tech companies like IBM, Intel, Motorola, give employees incentives (money) to submit disclosures, which is the first step to creating a patent (for the company). Maybe Lyall means (liberal) individual/independent inventors, but I think corporations pump out many more patents than individuals.

Thanks Shredmo. I will try to refrain from using profanity to get my point across but I do have a short fuse when people make such idiotic statements.

Lyall,

I am guessing that you are a "self-employed" statistician. Your conclusions are reckless and baseless. What is a "right-winger" as you define?...we've only gone over drilling for oil and the government redistributing wealth.

If that makes me a ring winger then it looks like 67% of America are right wingers

Now, because I'm under the assumption that you are very, very young, I'm going to offer you an interesting concept for you to mull over for a while. It's called a "source"

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/67_support_offshore_drilling_64_expect_it_will_lower_prices

Shredmo...

Where do you get this bullshit from?

I'd love to know what statistical tool you used to figure out who's conservative and liberal in the engineering field.

I'm an engineer...an OPEN MINDED one. I deal with conservative closed, minded engineers all the time. Guess what...we don't get anything done when these idiots are involved.

Generally speaking these types of engineers end up working management because they get in the way of real engineering work. But guess what, alot of the utterly stupid directions and decisions you see made in companies is by these same groups of conservative idiots.

So there's your answer.

The multitudes of “polarized” posts above easily reflect why we have such division in American politics today. Most people fall into the hard conservative or hard liberal lines of thinking with little hope of realizing that rational approaches to the energy crisis lie in the middle (or are a mix of liberal and conservative views). But the current presidential campaign is designed to bring out the differences, so that is what you hear these days.

There is no silver bullet to the energy crisis, nor will it be solved quickly. BTW, the energy crisis is also a national security issue. Below is an example of a rational plan that could easily be implemented within 10 years.

1) Start domestic drilling (conservative view) but keep total oil consumption the same. If we find 15% more oil domestically, reduce 10% from Saudi and 5% from Chavez, etc. The constant consumption will keep the gas prices at the same high cost (liberal view) while helping the national security issue.
2) Investigate nuclear power (conservative), starting with France’s very efficient 2nd generation designs. They produce a lot less waste than conventional US reactor designs. Like France, the US needs to standardize on one design, substantially reducing overall costs.
3) Keep increasing vehicle mileage/emissions regulations (liberal), naturally forcing the manufacturers to develop alternative power sources (hybrids, diesel, HCCI, EV, fuel cell, etc.), but don’t ban low-mileage, low-volume manufacturers.
4) Eliminate subsidies on corn-based ethanol (liberal?). This ethanol process is very inefficient while also affecting food prices.

Good post, but I am confident the majority of Americans are not so far left/right as the posters here would make one believe.

Funny how a left wing extremist can't see that they are just as brainwashed as a right wing extremist. It's true (although neither can/will admit it). Funny how Democrats think that their party is more interested in the people of the country than the party, and Dems are somehow more morally upstanding. Newsflash- both parties are as tricky and despicable as the other, and they care about the party, not you.

Your balancing ideas of both sides is what we need to be striving for.

Left-wing, baby, liberal, free-thinking FOREVER!!!

hybridface, I'm afraid the OC is one of California's Republican enclaves. The surfer-dude image is carefully maintained- but OC itself was gerrymandered a decade ago into the right wing voter camp. SO the answer is- an emphatic NO. The OC is not a liberal metropolis. In fact south of LA to San Diego and into the inland empire, it is very right wing. The only exceptions are Carlsbad and La Jolla, that are tiny in comparison.

Lyall,
Interesting, I didn't know that. What about Hollywood? Don't the Sean Penn's and George Clooney's of the world give Hollywood the liberal label?

The market self adjusts with no intervention needed. Look at sales of fuel efficient vehicles vs. SUVs this year. Besides...more than a few lefties want to outrigh ban sportscars due to high speeds, consumption, and CO2 emissions.

I have to admit, after reading this post with something that borders on disgust, I have to wonder how many people on here know what a true liberal actually is.

If you mean in the economic sense...a free-market liberal, in the USA, is called a conservative.

Why don't you tell us what your perception of a liberal is?

I think most of the liberals on this site fall into the category of Social Liberals, whose philosophy is that governments must take an active stance in securing the social well being, and freedoms of the individual, including education, health and freedom from dire poverty.

I know why you feel the way that you feel Quantum, at least your honest about it.

I on the other hand am comfortable taking care of/providing for myself and my family without the governments (tax payers) help. Moreover, I don't like it when the government steals from me to support "Social Liberals" or as I like to call them "Free Loaders" - pretty soon you'll be asking the government (i.e. me and the rest of the Can-do taxpayers) to feed you as well.

Your perception of freedom is NOT individual freedom.

It's freedom from individual accountability for your failure to provide even the most basic needs for yourself and family (i.e. healthcare, education, etc). In not accounting for individual failure, social liberalism fosters a society where the government gains more control of the over-achiever's at the EXPENSE of individual freedom.

That's how they did things in Europe for a while as you may have read, until the over-achievers left and came to America. If things start to look more and more like Europe...I wonder where the over-achievers will go next.

I'm happy just staying and fighting for it...

You have no concept of social liberalism. It does not mean "support the freeloaders". It means providing the infrastructure for all families and individuals to acquire healthcare, education and job security.

I have paid for my education and degrees through hard work and have not depended on anyone or the government to bail me out. I've worked over 100 hours a week in the past to pay for my degrees, but I would hope that in a better USA, that kids that come from less fortunate backgrounds have the same opportunities that I was allowed.

No one wants, as you say, "freeloaders" to milk the system. It is the Republican system that is allowing this process to thrive anyway.

You either have a lot or you have nothing, that is how the republican party appears to be, at least from my vantage point.

So go ahead and rip and roar and blow the house down. I know it's coming.

Good for you in all of your degrees...

I have an all too perfect understanding of what social liberalism is...

Your words, not mine on the same: "It means providing the infrastructure for all families and individuals to acquire healthcare, education and job security."

Who is providing? To keep this short I'll give you the answer...the government is providing, and thus the tax payers are providing (me).

So the government steals my money to put together all of these programs and assistance and blah blah blah to make sure that everyone has the "opportunity" to succeed. Sir, those who have the SELF-motivation to succeed, will succeed. Those who do not, will not. Not EVERYONE will be successful.

Many of the best CEO's/Presidents in this country worked their way up from NOTHING and got themselves through school without the government, on their own, at their expense, with only their personal motivation as inspiration - that Sir, is what is called the American Dream.

Point being, if you want to help folks out who you deem as having an unfortunate background then by all means have at it! Set up a charity or a 501c(3) to further your cause, but don't steal my money to fund it.

Huff Huff...

You know there is something to be said for "Intelligence" and somehow you just don't seem to fit the mold.

You most likely have never been judged on your skin color, your sexual orientation, your religious affiliations, or your "hobbies"...

Until you have been judged, then judge not...

I have nothing to add to this conversation. You are admittingly an intelligent person with different social valuse than myself.

I am not defeated, just have a better understanding of my opponents.

We are all fortunate to have the liberties that we do in the USA.

We have different views so I will leave it at that.

Glad I could provide you with the insight into the conservative value system. Few more tax increases and maybe you'll come around.

As for me, I'm two LLC's away from not paying any taxes anyway. ; )

FactsRule,

Way off base...being a Heterosexual White Christian Male I am assuredly, the MOST judged demographic on this planet. You can say literally anything derogatory about me in a public audience with zero outrage...moreover, I'll be expected to feel guilty as to why you feel thee way you feel.

To break the needle off of the judging scale, I drive around in a BMW

QuantumMatrix:

Well said. I doubt they'll grasp the concept....a brain does, after all, need to have a certain level in intelligence to allow a thinking process.

BMW74,

It has nothing to do with my so-called perception of liberalism. While your response may be a bit petulant, you are fundamentally correct, which makes the fact that you have been de-boosted all the more disturbing. Ronald Reagan was actually a true liberal.

I do not mean liberalism in the economic sense, per-se I mean it in the broader philosophical sense as an extension on the Enlightenment. I certainly do not mean it in its bastardized sense that the progressives of the 30's started using as a substitute for "progressivism" which had become damaged by its association for Theodore Roosevelt. Roosevelt had run on a Progressive third party ticket and lost. So- they lied. They called themselves liberals. The New York times criticized the move stating," the expropriation of the time-honored word 'liberal'"...by the Radical Red school of thought", and demanded, "the word 'liberal' be handed back to its original owners." This later sense, the falsehood that the media perpetuate out of expeditiousness and poor education, is simply a lie- words are not meant to represent their antithesis.

I mean true, or classical if you prefer, liberalism that in many ways had its cohesive genesis in the works of John Locke, although much of what he wrote had been alluded to in the writings of Algernon Sydney, Milton, and Harrington, and by no means was his the the ultimate form of the philosophy as both Voltaire and the Baron de Montesquieu were some of its greatest proponents as well.

This is the lamest place to have this argument. Jap vs German site. BUY USA. My daughter and wife have chosen to buy a BMW and an A8 and they are pathetic after climbing out of my 08 viper (or the vette I had). I have a 2001 Durango with 70K miles and it's never been to the shop other than oil, etc. My daughter's BMW, and my wife A8 have had recalls and warranty issues (knock on wood-or a dumbacrates head).
I support druggies and fat idiots that choose to be baby factories! Don't think so. That's where the Germans where right with the fireplace.
Remember when the prime minister of Japan was asked why he thought the USA was not what it was in the 40’s-50? He said it’s because of the blacks (in the late 80's). He retracted his answer but he was right. It wasn't the blacks, it our welfare system and I don' want to support any of them. Do you? Kennedy must be your mentor.
slaMMer

You are seriously deranged. I suggest mental help and soon.

Don't agree that it had anything to do with blacks, but agree with your perception of welfare and its effects on society....there were plenty of other folks on welfare who weren't black.

Government dependence is avery dangerous enterprise. I being a no hand-outs allowed self-starter am mortified by wealth redistribution.

Better yet, why don't you go stand in the processing room at Dachau and try to comprehend what an ignorant, reprehensable comment you made.

Seriously autospies, ban bigots and racists. I'd gladly read profanity all day long rather than that crap.

Here, Here 09CTSVforMe!! We might not agree on everything but on this one issue we are in complete agreement.

Moderator: Please ban the biggoted, racists and fascists...

sailnfl:

You're a fkin idiot. You think "those" blacks came here under their free will? What's the matter? Want to shove your shitty heritage under the rug? Too embarrassed to see how pathetic, even a mere 40 years ago, your kind were?

Again, typical American...no personal responsibility when it comes to taking ownership of real, serious issues.

Thanks for judging our entire country based on that one guy.

Hmm...I think the history of this country speaks for itself. There was a time where the majority were him...it's sad but it's true.

that what it B

QuantumMatrix:

The philosophy of a democracy is for social interaction to occur. A healthy democracy is one where the PEOPLE of that country are involved in every step of their government's actions/dealings. That is what government by the people means.

There are other countries that do a far better job of having their citizens interact with government than we do. We are not a true democracy because most Americans haven't a clue what their government does, where their money is going, what their government is involved with, how their government is helping them.

Most Americans see the world like this:

A) My taxes
B) My fuel prices
C) My food prices
D) Who should we be fighting now.

People misunderstand socialism greatly the United States and whatever people in this country can't understand, they fear greatly. And fear in the United States reverts people back into an infancy mode of despair and utter hatred for whatever they are against.

This whole concept of more individuality and less government is retarded. If people took the time to learn about their government, be more involved in their government, be part of the decision making ALL the time, we'd not have this disaster we are facing now.

But of course, this takes great effort...and effort and energy and personal responsibility isn't something most Americans are willing to do....EVEN though these same conservatives blab on and on about these virtues.

Hypocrisy on both sides is high. When you really look at it, both sides are composed of the same manure but one may be slightly darke than the other.

Hybrid strategy is the way to go.
By most right wing comments/supporters it is clear that they believe in one or more of the following
1) above the 80% in family income... maybe even >90%
2) believe in the Adam Smith's invisible hand
3) don't care about socio economic welfare... just me..me..me.. and maybe some voluntary contribution to charity if the tiny portion of them feel gracious

I actually do fall in the >90% category. I also understand that governments must raise the lowest bar and place binding constraints on the impacts of the capitalistic invisible hand.
Practical capitalism leads to ridiculous difference between the average person and the rich. Typical/usual republican strategy only grows this difference and actually decreases overall wealth of the population with the exception of the top 2% or greater.

Yes personal responsibility harped on by the conservatives is needed. But let's face it, the majority are NOT really responsible. The case of buying houses more than they can afford and having credit card debts they can't pay off are classic examples. What the conservatives, who are in the less than 98% of earnings, don't get is that they are the morons who propagate the fallout of government not allowing people to make moronic financial decisions. Almost everyone loses when some people screw the whole economy (only 4-5 million houses caused this whole mortgage crisis and subsequent credit crunch).

The government should help and confine the invisible hand. They should have forced capitalism into action by a $2 gas tax and used that $ for the "War on Terror". That would have saved us hundreds of Billions in $ from our pocket to going to oil exporting countries. It would have saved us Trillions in overall taxes (including the insurance, medical, etc to families of troops).

Well said!

bimmerfan25, you can ride a bicycle the rest of your life.

:-D

I think he's waiting for you to sell yours after you graduate from Jr High. How much longer do you have EL?

You might want to see what I posted on my blog regarding this very same issue - with some insider charts on sales versus gas prices. - Thanks - Dan

http://thefastreport.com/2008/08/some-concise-autoenvironmental-data-you-havent-seen-in-one-place/

Privatize everything...social security is going bankrupt, medicare is bankrupt and the policemen/fireman are so over-funded/wasteful relative to what they need to do their jobs it's disgusting.

I guess accountability is outside of your scope...keep handing out the free passes in life and see where it gets you.

Also, really genius..ReTHUGlicans...seriously, stop embarrassing yourself with a poor attempts at petty insults.

PS: Barack Obama will never be President...that's right I said it.

""PS: Barack Obama will never be President...that's right I said it.""

Well...as I said...with racist bigots like you, I think we actually agree....you may be right here.

Oh and I forgot...SS is going bankrupt??? LOL...ok. Another scare tactic used by you idiots.

I'm sure if you could, you'd blame Al Quada for bankrupting SS too right?...

By the way...I'm surprised you're still here...BMW74...I thought you'd have enlisted already and begun fighting. What happened?

Wow...thank you bimmer...I am SOOOO happy you are leaving our shores, I feel no need to provide a rebuttal to your senseless comments.

A few talking points for when you go over there... the U.S economy has grown more than 19% over the past 8 years as opposed to an average of 9% for all of Europe and the average "impoverished" U.S. citizen has a higher standard of living than the average European citizen.

What filth, what grim, what leaches you and nozferatu are. Good riddance...GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!