Let's Define Class - Or The Lack Of Class: The Audi Saga Continues...

Let's Define Class - Or The Lack Of Class: The Audi Saga Continues...
Last weekend I wrote an article calling Audi's latest commercials as misleading and wrong.  To say I got slammed on here would be an understatement.  Several of our readers went on and on and on trying to discredit the story and the author as well, but the fact still remains that the commercial in question is at best misleading.

The claim of course was that the new Audi A4 is the fastest car in the segment.  This segment was one defined by a automatic 4-Cylinder A4 2.0T Quattro against a Lexus IS250, BMW 328iX and the Mercedes-Benz C300 4-Matic.

My argument centered on the fact that the Audi A4 in all variations is a member of the "entry level" either "sports" or "near luxury" sedan segment with prices ranging from the low $30k's to high $40k's.  Cars within this class include the aforementioned Audi A4 2.0T along with the A4 3.2, the BMW 328i and 335i, the Mercedes-Benz C300 and C350, the Lexus IS250 / IS350 as well as the Infiniti G37 sedan and coupe.  It could be argued that the Cadillac CTS is a member of the class to which I won't dispute, and perhaps even offerings from Volvo and Saab that fit the size and price point.

But would that be appropriate?

While the Saab, Volvo and Cadillac are decent cars, they aren't normally cross shopped with the offerings from BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Infiniti.  And yet price wise on paper they are part of the class.

Which raises the point I was trying to make last week with the article about the Audi.  As much as the Audi fans on this site want to try to distance themselves from BMW, the fact is Audi has engineered cars meant to compete with BMW.  Dynamically the Audi strives to be in the same class as the 3-Series.  You can argue all you want that it is not true, but the fact remains that if Audi views its own offerings as a competitor to BMW (and Lexus, MB and Infiniti) should it not be held to a standard consistent with cars that define the class.

Reader S4CABRIOFOXONE was very passionate in his defense of the A4, a passion I respect but disagree with from the standpoint that to make a claim as bold as the one Audi made in their commercial advertising, you better be ready to defend it across the range, not just in one micro setting against a very small selling segment for the rest of the field. 

The better comparison would be to compare the highest selling BMW, MB, and Lexus against the highest selling A4 to determine an outcome.  I don't know the ratios for BMW, but I suspect they sell more 328i's than they do 335i's, and I suspect Mercedes sells more C300's than the other models in that range, so include those as the competitors and then see who comes out on top.

A lot of readers latched on to the fine print, but in a real world situation fine print doesn't carry street credibility.  Example:  You line-up your A4 2.0T Quattro one night against a BMW 328i.  Stop light to stop light the BMW wins.  Would you then explain to the BMW driver that had their car been the 328iX with the automatic transmission that your own A4 2.0T would have won the race based on this comparison.  Of course you could show the BMW driver the fine print, but do you think it would really matter?

Of course not, you'd get laughed right back into your car.  Fine print doesn't sell, real world performance sells, and with that being the case I think Audi should line up their A4 2.0T or 3.2 (their choice) against the class leaders from BMW, Mercedes and Lexus.  If their car wins, great.  They get the privilege of bragging rights.  Of course if the Audi loses, they can always defer back to the fine print.

Understand something here, this (and last weekends story) has nothing to do with slamming with Audi.  Audi builds a great car with a fantastic interior (although having lived with the MMI interface for over 2 years now, I can tell you I prefer the iDrive over the MMI) that competes with the best the world has to offer, but they need to be held accountable when they make claims that in the big picture cannot be substantiated.

We don't live in a Micro world, we live in the Macro.  The A4 both 2.0 and 3.2 compete with a broader range of vehicles than just the few listed in their advertisement.  I just think it is important to reveal the truth.

Go ahead, tell me I am wrong.  What I do know is that if it was BMW making the claim about such a small micro segment of the much larger segment, or Lexus or Mercedes you'd be all over it.  Perhaps it is because as even Agent 009 says, "Audi is the underdog" that we all come to the defense.

Underdog or not, we don't live our life in fine print.  We shouldn't be defending a claim that requires fine print just to substantiate.

What do you think?


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 9/20/2008 11:27:33 PM
+6 Boost
WOW!!!, did you just put Cadillac in the same class as Volvo and Saab....you have to be kidding right....for one the CTS is part of the A4's category, and IS crossshopped not with volvo, and saab, but Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus...why else would they sell so much......not to mention where the ad was also wrong is in the case of Acura....people also are crosshoping the TL which are also FWD, and All wheel drive, and certainly larger and more powerful than this A4.........talk about downgrading brands...your article sounds just as rediculous in many regards as that fine print that Audi did........im still laughing at the CTS not being compared with the best in teh segment when it is in fact of the best in teh segment as is the TL


Agent00JAgent00J - 9/21/2008 9:02:49 AM
-3 Boost
The Cadillac is certainly the best in the segment, but based on size I feel it competes better with the 5-Series than the 3-Series.

Certainly not a bash on Cadillac.

-00J


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 9/21/2008 9:18:51 AM
+4 Boost
and thats just the point the A4 isnt the largest car in its class.....the ES is the same size if not slightly larger than the CTS, and the new TL is larger than the CTS, they both are entry level luxury cars....not 5 series competition....not to mention are you saying the G35 is also 5 series competition...as it is larger than the cars in this class as well and larger than this LARGEST in class A4....so that was just a cop out, the funny thing is how you are attacking Audi for doign the same thing you are doing....the Cadillac is to big for this class..lol, yet it is in this class and currently other than the ES, and TL are the largest cars in this class....the STS competes with the 5 series, and they have no 7 series competitor currently....


EnnNorakEnnNorak - 9/21/2008 9:57:27 AM
+1 Boost
Stop all this nonsense. The marketing guys in the auto industry are a joke. If a car lacks power, they will say that it has best engine in its class. If a car is too expensive, they will say it offers best value in its class. If it lacks power for straight line acceleration, they will say it has best performance in its class and if you ask them what that means they will say they were referring to handling. They can slice and dice market segments and conjure up definitions of classes to make their weasel words best fit their ridiculous claims.

There is only one way to look at a car. It has to be from the overall merits of its reliability, durability, comfort and other benefits and features that make up its aggregate desirability. I used to drive an A6 but switched to a nicely loaded Passat when my lease ran out because the newer Passat has better seats , more rear leg room and a more comfortable ride. In the process I ended up with nearly the same luxury at 1/3 less price and 1/3 more fuel economy.


BlakuraTLSBlakuraTLS - 9/21/2008 1:32:48 PM
+1 Boost
I agree with bmwdrvr, this story is filled with so much bias. All of the aforemetioned cars are basically in the same category.


IamEvilHomerIamEvilHomer - 9/21/2008 3:25:17 PM
0 Boost
00j - wow so much angst because Audi claimed to be #1 in their class as they define it. Every manufacture does this. On this site you and your readers try and compare the S4 with the M3 and the A4 3.2 with the 335. In Audi’s mind the S4 competes with the 335 more and the RS4 with the M3. The A4 3.2 is s slow selling car that Audi has little focus on. . BMW fans try and compare price points if it helps their case.

All marketing states the best case for manufactures. No one is thinking that Audi is saying that the A4 2.0T (the slowest A4 built) is faster than an IS-F or a 335 or that an A4 328 stick is slower than an AWD 2.0T.

00j this article is at best poorly written. The fact that you rehash this 2 weeks in a row tells me that you were really hurt that Audi attacked your brand or you have nothing exciting to post.



AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/21/2008 4:44:57 PM
-4 Boost
Well said EvilHomer


AudiphileAudiphile - 9/21/2008 8:02:03 PM
0 Boost
Well said indeed.



bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 9/21/2008 10:35:39 PM
+2 Boost
ill have to disagree with most of what you just said it isnt true that MOST companies lie, or create technicalities out of OBJECTIVE information....maybe with subjective things...but this just makes Audi look and seem desperate for attention because anyone smart is going to question such claims....not to mention whether its is truly faster than 328i remains to be seen as the 338i could outrun the 3.2 A4, and if we are talking factory numbers from BMW that makes no sense as the 5.6 second 335i consistently gets 4.8, while alot of Audi's times tend to end up being slower than the factory estimate.......the point is this article is poorly written, the Audi commercial is STRETCHING the truth greatly in so many ways, and it looks pitiful to do so to real car enthusiasts....not to mention the 335i is faster the S4 is around a track, and is still the better performer


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 9/21/2008 10:37:18 PM
+2 Boost
and on a side note......why are you all supporting him turning this into a BMW vs AUDI issue like so many other posters here..........ITS NOT!!!


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 1:09:53 AM
-1 Boost
"ill have to disagree with most of what you just said it isnt true that MOST companies lie, or create technicalities out of OBJECTIVE information.."

Who is lying here? Who is making things up? The A4 2.0T quattro is quicker than the 328xi, IS250 AWD and C300 4Matic. I don't see why that is so hard to wrap one's mind around.

It's called marketing spin. This is certainly not the first time it has happened.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 1:14:54 AM
0 Boost
"if we are talking factory numbers from BMW that makes no sense as the 5.6 second 335i consistently gets 4.8, while alot of Audi's times tend to end up being slower than the factory estimate...."

By the way, WHAT THE HELL?

You do not know a thing about Audi if you actually believe that last part. The only car that I've ever seen NOT reach the factory estimate was the last-gen A4 3.2 in an Edmunds article. Edmunds being a publication notorious for slow acceleration times. In EVERY other case, the Audi will be about a half second quicker than what the factory claims. Examples:

Audi says 4.8 seconds for the RS4. Motor Trend got 4.3.

Audi says 4.6 for the R8; it's normally 4.2 and I've read 3.9.

Audi says 6.7 for the A3 2.0T, but it often gets 6.2-6.4.

Audi says 6.3 for the new A4 3.2, but it was clocked at 5.7 by Motor Trend.

Need I say more?


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 9/22/2008 1:10:51 PM
+2 Boost
well it looks as if S4 again wants to challenge my car knowledge....and again be proven wrong.....what are the times for the Audi A6 4.2 V8....., the A4 or A5 are getting slower times in many mags than the times Audi saids....the TT 3.2 as well, not to mention depending on what test you are lookin at those times are wrong....so no like I said when the A4 with the 18,000 GTI's engine, is tested against the 328i than i will believe the claims they are making otherwise its not marketign spin its lies......because the A4 is far from being the largest car in its class, and it certainly isnt the fastest, and most fuel efficient remains to be seen because its 4cyl would put in the same CLASS(??) as the TSX, and S40.....marketing spin what a crock...more like take any small detail to make your car seem better than it really is, as opposed to just simply making a more COMPETITIVE vehicle...shame on audi


dlindlin - 9/20/2008 11:50:30 PM
-1 Boost
There's no point of comparing a 2.0T segment since the only thing comparable is IS250 or TSX.

Why not compare A4 3.2? It's the one that can be better assessed and come up w/ a comparison covering broader sampling. Why? Because in that case, AUDI will not win anything.

In fact, I believe AUDI will soon put a turbo to it also.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 12:49:04 PM
-2 Boost
So why would Audi compare it if everyone knows it won't win. Are you a marketing genius? Why not include the S4 when it comes out? Does the "S" put it in a different class? Sure it will be a few thousand more than the 335, etc.. but none of these cars line up at the same price point/hp/etc...


IamEvilHomerIamEvilHomer - 9/21/2008 3:32:23 PM
-2 Boost
if you are saying this segment you are saying 4 bangers. This "class" is maket leading 4WD compact sedans


dlindlin - 9/21/2008 11:58:33 PM
-1 Boost
Apparently aarononymous has never taken a science class. Every comparison needs control variable, and in this case, 6 cylinder engine is a suitable one since everyone has it, FI or not. Not a 4 cylinder, not a 8 cylinder.


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 9/22/2008 1:04:35 PM
-4 Boost
why advertise a 6 cyl class when even BMW is going to 4-cyl on the 3-series? Audi just happens to be ahead of the game advertising the new platform A4 and smartly introducing the first model with a 4 cyl engine. If there is a reason not to advertise the 3.2 it is because it will be soon replaced by the 3.0T Supercharged engine- there would be no point in advertising an outgoing engine.

If it was BMW or Lexus advertising a 4 cylinder car in this segment there would be no comments or reaction. It just so happens that Audi did it in a class where the competition is, well, slower, smaller and less efficient.


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/21/2008 1:04:33 AM
+4 Boost

"What do you think?"

I think you need to give it up. This is just another attack on Audi and this "article" is solely fuel for an extinct fire.

Why did you feel the need to bring this up again, you lose.

Just because you fail to understand the A4's seat is no excuse for you to continually bash a brand. 2.0T competes with the 328i, not the 335i, the S4 does and the B8 S4 will.

We get it, you like BMW. They make nice cars, and so does Audi. Sadly only tools buy them, and even sadder, only fools revive an existing argument.

Read the fine print and stop the bad articles.



Agent00JAgent00J - 9/21/2008 9:02:03 AM
+2 Boost
This is not a BMW versus Audi issue, it is an issue that revolves around a pretty bold claim in a pretty micro comparison.

Readers on here went nuts months ago when C&D declared the M3 the winner against the GT-R, and it took getting into the fine print to break down their decision. The discussion went on and on regarding the superiority of the GT-R to the M3, and the inclusion of fine print was a major factor in that decision.

Why then shouldn't Audi be held to the same scrutiny.

I like the new A4, I think it is a great looking car, and one that I am excited to drive in the not so distant future. That doesn't mean they get a pass either.

BMW, Lexus and MB don't sell 4-cylinder cars in the segment anymore, and price wise the Audi is cheaper than any of the cars mentioned in the commercial. That clearly gives Audi an advantage over the others. Perhaps they should have advertised, "...not just fast, less expensive..."

Don't read into the story something that is not there, in no way am I bashing the Audi (and I again I remind the readers I OWN AN AUDI, I have owned more than 1 Audi in my lifetime), I am just wanting to clarify the claim of class.

-00J


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 1:16:07 AM
-3 Boost
"Reader S4CABRIOFOXONE was very passionate in his defense of the A4, a passion I respect but disagree with from the standpoint that to make a claim as bold as the one Audi made in their commercial advertising, you better be ready to defend it across the range, not just in one micro setting against a very small selling segment for the rest of the field."

Why? If it's true just for the 2.0T, then it's true for that model. I didn't say anything like that regarding the 3.2, which I acknowledge is the lame duck of its class.

For example, just because the 335i is the quickest in that class, doesn't mean the 3 Series is the quickest in its class overall. The A4 2.0T is quicker than the 328 and the C63 AMG is quicker than the M3. See my point? Only the 335i is the quickest.


Agent00JAgent00J - 9/21/2008 9:04:17 AM
+2 Boost
S4 - the C63, M3 and S4 play in their own class which also includes the IS-f.

The 335i and A4 3.2 are priced close to each other and as such do fall into the same class, but that class also includes the less powerful alternatives as well.

-00J


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 12:53:33 PM
-2 Boost
00J where does the RS4/RS5 come into play? Isn't it the car that is compared with the other cars you mentioned? Who is the authority to define these classes? Are there laws governing the definition of these classes?



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 3:19:28 PM
-2 Boost
"S4 - the C63, M3 and S4 play in their own class which also includes the IS-f.

The 335i and A4 3.2 are priced close to each other and as such do fall into the same class, but that class also includes the less powerful alternatives as well."

?

What are you trying to say? Are you just trying to spin this silly argument to prove your point?

I know the 335i is faster than the A4 3.2, I said so in my post. I would pick a 335 over a 3.2 any day of the week. However, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to face the fact that the 328 is slower than the A4 2.0T. Not to mention, less fuel efficient! The fact that the A4 2.0T is a four-cylinder is a huge advantage, and what makes it the best in its segment. It has the torque of a six-cylinder and the efficiency of a regular four.

BTW, the RS4 competes with the M3, not the S4. The S4 had competed with the old M3. The RS4 is a bit exaggerated in price--it's $72K for a loaded sedan, which is the same as a loaded M3 sedan. The RS4 just has a higher base price because it has more standard features.


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 9/22/2008 1:16:17 PM
-3 Boost
the problem lies in the definition of "class". Evidence is that many here have a different definition. As far as I know there is no one official reguilating definition of "class". Some call it a price comparison, some go for size, number of doors, or combinations. Each person will define "class" to suit their views so why not just end this senseless argument. IMO the article was factual, it listed the competition it was compared to, no tricks, no gimmicks. The fact that some here don't like it does not make it false or misleading advertising.


klossfamklossfam - 9/21/2008 1:31:57 AM
0 Boost
I agree that the ad is misleading...however, not as incredibly stupid as the new Acura TSX ad about "what kind of luxury" the TSX defines...Audi is simply hoping you don't read the fine print. Even with the increase in HP and huge increase in torque, the new A4 2.0T will not compete head to head on the track with a 328i (even if both are AWD). I owned a 2006 A4 (B7 Chassis) with the 3.2, Quattro and the S-line suspension (6 MT) and that car with a dog compared to the 2008 Infiniti G35xS (5 AT) I replaced it with...Obviously the G has 306 hp vs 255 hp for the B7 A4, but power to weight ratio is still an Audi weakness. In Audi's defense, it seems that 80% of the A4s I see are the 2.0Ts, a good portion of the 3s are 328s and most ISs are the 250s, which does give them a "real world" comparison...Agent 00J is correct in that there is no way a new A4 2.0T could take out a 328...BTW, looked at the new A4 in 3-D at the local dealer, and was disappointed...especially the base 2.0T with the 17 inch wheels...pretty bad proportions and the stretched wheelbase doesn't add to the appearance either.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 12:55:42 PM
-3 Boost
So since the B7 3.2 A4 would get beat by the 335/G35 then the new A4 2.0T would get beat by the 328i?

Great logic...




S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 3:22:46 PM
-1 Boost
"Even with the increase in HP and huge increase in torque, the new A4 2.0T will not compete head to head on the track with a 328i (even if both are AWD). I owned a 2006 A4 (B7 Chassis) with the 3.2, Quattro and the S-line suspension (6 MT) and that car with a dog compared to the 2008 Infiniti G35xS (5 AT) I replaced it with..."

The new A4 2.0T is significantly quicker than the old A4 3.2. The old 3.2 went from 0-60mph in 6.5 seconds, at best, while the new 2.0T could probably do it in just under six due to all of its torque. I don't think you understand how good the new 2.0T is. It has 260lb ft of torque. The BMW 328 has only 200lb ft. The A4 2.0T would crush it on a track, or on the street. While the BMW has a 20hp advantage the Audi has three times that much more torque. It's not even really fair.


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 9/22/2008 1:16:38 PM
+4 Boost
that logic makes no sense the 335i....is not the most powerful car in its class yet it is the fastest....the S4,and S5 both have 2 more cylinders, and more power (while getting worse gas mileage than the M3) and yet wont outrun it the same goes for the V10 S6 and the 550i.....so again when a test shows that the 328i can be beaten by the 2.0 it will make sense otherwise those number make no sense


hpfreakhpfreak - 9/21/2008 2:48:08 AM
+3 Boost
"The better comparison would be to compare the highest selling BMW, MB, and Lexus against the highest selling A4 to determine an outcome."

Why?


hpfreakhpfreak - 9/21/2008 2:49:48 AM
+2 Boost
"A lot of readers latched on to the fine print, but in a real world situation fine print doesn't carry street credibility."

You and many people faulting on their mortgages didn't read the fine print.

Your mistake. Its simple.


Agent00JAgent00J - 9/21/2008 9:06:38 AM
+1 Boost
Whether or not the details are in the fine print or not, I don't think fine print gets you street credibility.

-00J

PS: I have 5 mortgages right now on various properties I own, 4 of which are the exact same mortgage product from the same bank, and I still read each and every page just to make sure there is nothing new or changed from the previous. I for one have no pity for those people who signed their names to a product called Adjustable Rate, and then balk when the rate adjusted.


hpfreakhpfreak - 9/21/2008 2:51:14 AM
+7 Boost
"Of course not, you'd get laughed right back into your car. Fine print doesn't sell, real world performance sells, and with that being the case I think Audi should line up their A4 2.0T or 3.2 (their choice) against the class leaders from BMW, Mercedes and Lexus."

The 2.0T is their high mpg car. When lined up next to the competition it is at or near the top. A great car period.


hpfreakhpfreak - 9/21/2008 2:51:54 AM
+5 Boost
I own a BMW and think you a idiot.

Sorry its my opinion.


hpfreakhpfreak - 9/21/2008 2:53:20 AM
+6 Boost
spell check

... and think you are a idiot.

LOL. Now I look like an idiot oh well.

Your thread does nothing to change minds. The commercial is legit.


hpfreakhpfreak - 9/21/2008 2:56:19 AM
+8 Boost
... an idiot.

Holy crap. I suck. LOL


Agent00JAgent00J - 9/21/2008 9:07:12 AM
-4 Boost
I own a BMW and an Audi, I still don't consider myself an idiot.

-00J


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 12:59:12 PM
-2 Boost
OOJ what happened with the @.0T not being available yet? you mussed have missed that in all the training you recieved, please give us some insight on that training.

Claiming to be highly trained then posting an ad in which you basically just crapped your pants does wonders for your "street cred", huh?


StarStar - 9/21/2008 1:04:50 PM
-2 Boost
Ha, ha, ha...
So "hpfreak" needs three posts to barely put together a sentence but he gets positive boost. Obviously, only a complete retard can give positive boost to somebody who probably barely manages to sign in on this website(hpfreak)considering the lack of intelligence and education exhibited in his posts.
What an army of idiots...


Agent00JAgent00J - 9/21/2008 3:55:10 PM
+2 Boost
When I wrote the article, the local Audi dealer was quoting several more weeks on the 2.0T.

I made a mistake, something I honed up to last week regarding that issue.

-00J


AudiphileAudiphile - 9/21/2008 3:06:27 AM
+2 Boost
Dear Agent 00J,

Let me explain my stance one more time.

The base Audi A4, the 2.0 T, is equipped with a 211-hp engine, automatic transmission and AWD. Audi chose to compare this car with competing models that had roughly the same power, automatic transmissions, and all-wheel drive. The Cadillac CTS and Infiniti G37 were available with automatic and AWD, but those cars had much more powerful engines than the A4 2.0 T, and thus they were not included in the comparison. The BMW 328xi, Lexu IS 250 AWD, and Mercedes C300 4Matic were included in this comparison because because they had roughly the same horsepower, automatic transmission and AWD system as the Audi A4 2.0 T. Comparing more powerful BMW, Lexus or Mercedes models to the Audi would have been unfair to Audi as far as acceleration was concerned, and the Audi would have an unfair advantage over the other cars as far as gas mileage was concerned.

Audi chose to compare the new A4 to competing models that were technically comparable, i.e. apples to apples. That is a perfectly valid method of comparison.

That is not to say that there are other valid methods of comparison, however. For example, one could argue that comparably priced versions of the Audi A4, BMW 3-series, and Lexus IS should be compared. But that does not make Audi's method any less valid.

By the way, I have been cross-shopping the Audi A4 Avant 2.0 T, BMW 335i, Cadillac CTS (with direct-injection V6) and Infiniti G35. Because of my height and long torso, I have narrowed the choice to between the A4 Avant and the 335i. However, I realize that I am not technically comparing apples to apples because these cars do not have comparable engine/transmission/drive configurations. (In addition, the Audi is a station wagon, while the BMW is a sedan.) However, when equipped the way I want them, the Audi and BMW are priced within $6,000 of each other. I will have to decide which car best meets my needs within my budget.

If you agree with my argument, fine. If you don't, let's just agree to disagree and let this matter drop - please!






AudiphileAudiphile - 9/21/2008 3:08:45 AM
-1 Boost
Correction - 4th paragraph, 1st sentence.

"That is not to say that there are NOT other valid methods of comparison, however."


Designer1Designer1 - 9/21/2008 4:07:39 AM
+6 Boost
Agent00J, you spent an hour coming up with this article to make a suggestion to Audi to place A4 with 328, C, and IS? What the heck is this meaningless article all about? I wasted 10 minutes of my time reading it trying to understand what the issue is and that's all you're talking about?

Buddy, wake up and catch the time, A4 DOES compete with all the cars you've mentioned.

Go take a break and say no to drugs man.


528i528i - 9/21/2008 4:43:52 AM
+4 Boost
60 people died in pakistan,

and manchester united is going to kick chelsea's ass today.


AgentOrangeAgentOrange - 9/21/2008 3:17:12 PM
-1 Boost
OTOH, people are always dying in shithole Pakistan and Manchester U is always kicking someones arse.


M53RM53R - 9/22/2008 9:39:44 AM
-2 Boost
You need to have some respect for other countries, otherwise, no1 will respect yours.

And Manchester United sucks... I cant believe they won the CL ... it's just because Milan didn't play them :) hint: 3-0


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/21/2008 5:47:18 AM
-2 Boost
This is like a MichaelTaylor quality article.

The fine print is there to validate AOA's claims. This is for legal reasons, not for a mediocre autospies agent to dispute.

Was a continuation really necessary 00J? Next time, take the time to find/create a better piece of literature and spare us.


ktu01ktu01 - 9/21/2008 8:47:46 PM
+2 Boost
I totally agree. Wow. AgentOOJ should stop writing. Reflects really poorly on the the journalism quality of this site.


gkearns56gkearns56 - 9/21/2008 6:30:56 AM
+5 Boost
AudiNewEngland: I couldn't have said it better. For some reason, this wannabe car enthusiast, Agent00J, just needed to revisit this topic again. Remember, the last time he told readers that only the 3.2 Audi was available, and that the Audi 2.0T wasn't available yet. So just take this meager journalism about cars as a good indicator of Agent009 (lack of) aptitude regarding cars.


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/21/2008 7:18:11 AM
+1 Boost
I think there was some mistake on the title of this article, it should read:

"Let's Define Professionalism - Or The Lack Of Professionalism: Agent00J's Poor Journalism Saga Continues..."


Agent00JAgent00J - 9/21/2008 9:09:40 AM
-1 Boost
AudiNewEngland - I would venture a guess here in saying you have a vested interest in Audi as you are probably a sales person, or perhaps own the dealership itself. As stated this IS NOT a bash on Audi.

The question I have for you is this, how many cars do you sell based on the fine print versus actual seat of the pants time behind the wheel?

-00J


HeyhuubHeyhuub - 9/21/2008 10:31:53 AM
0 Boost
And BMW touringcar racers have trouble keeping up with Seat touringcars.


QuantumMatrixQuantumMatrix - 9/21/2008 10:42:43 AM
+3 Boost
You are like a bad movie amazinbimmer.. You flop at the box office and go straight to DVD and wind up the $5.00 bin at Wal-Mart.

Your comments lack any intelligence and are filled with unwarranted attacks on Audi.

You must work under a middle manager and aspire to one day take his or her job in the next 30 years.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 11:53:34 AM
-6 Boost
amazingbimmer"the audi is not in the same segment as BMW.. it competes with infiniti and acura and maybe lexus."

I partially agree. Audi competes with Lexus in tier 2 indeed but Infiniti and Acura are just rebadged economy cars.

amazingbimmer" MB is the only brand that competes with BMW"

I agree 100%.



VISOVISO - 9/21/2008 12:42:46 PM
-3 Boost
Again, do some fact checks from the experts in the automotive arena as well as various automotive business journals around the globe about the status of Audi, BMW, and MB. Once you check the facts, you and your mini-me STAR will surely wind up looking like two hapless souls tyring to convince everyone of your bias. Also, check the prices of these brands. They are pretty much all on the same level. As usual, you set forth a pathetic and unintellectual hyposis that fails tbe truthful each time. Now, for someone who claims to have attended Wharton, shouldn't you be a little better at critical and intellecutual debate? Oh yes aren't you some kind of investment banker per your previous boasts about yourself? Maybe you work on Wall Street then. And we know what happened there recently.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 3:34:38 PM
+1 Boost
VISO "Again, do some fact checks from the experts in the automotive arena as well as various automotive business journals around the globe about the status of Audi, BMW, and MB."

Ha, ha, ha..."automotive business journals". Yeah, let me wipe my a** with their opinions. I thought these forums are for enthusiasts not for the plebe who believes what they read in those journals. Sure, they put Lexus, Audi and even the lowly Infiniti with the phenomenal car brands like Mercedes or BMW but doesn't mean that the real enthusiasts buy that c**p.

Audi might be presented as an alternative to a Mercedes or BMW to people who don't have any idea what a good car is but every enthusiast knows that they are a step down from the two automotive Titans.
Sure, you can buy your Audi A5 and play the role of the snob in your neighborhood but you will never impress anybody who knows cars. Audi's are VWs wrapped up in a better looking package but the content is way too similar. I do love VWs though because I think you get a half premium car for the price of an economy car but I'm not such a big fan of Audis since you get the opposite... a half economy car for a premium price.


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/21/2008 4:57:31 PM
-2 Boost
Judging by the color of your posts amazinbimmer & star, it appears as so your opinions suck.

and in response to star's comment,
"you can buy your Audi A5 and play the role of the snob in your neighborhood but you will never impress anybody"

Star, we don't need a car to get friends or to get respect, and sadly you really aren't impressing anyone with a 30 thousand dollar car. BMW's are only impressive to poor people, so get some new, upper class friends with Audis and Mercedes and stop commenting. You're a joke.

Again, you're a joke





StarStar - 9/21/2008 5:36:16 PM
0 Boost
My Mercedes will be here in three weeks, LOSER. Enjoy driving your 1999 A4 worth $1800 and your canned tuna for dinner.


TauronB2GTauronB2G - 9/21/2008 10:41:49 AM
+2 Boost
Man up...quit whining!!!
T


rg12345rg12345 - 9/21/2008 11:37:51 AM
+5 Boost
Agent00j: "Example: You line-up your A4 2.0T Quattro one night against a BMW 328i. Stop light to stop light the BMW wins. "

I NEVER lost a race against a 328i, and I have the A4 2.0T B7. The new A4 is a little faster than my A4, so I doubt I will lose that race in the future. And I am talking in the dry/clean street, oh, considering here where I live is at least 6 months/year either wet or snow, I have a problem (in that period) getting a bimmer to race against me. There just don't like pushing the gas and standing still in the wet/snow, so they don't race at all.

The commercial is right there and if you think it's misleading you should buy the new A4 and then take Audi in court over the commercial. Say it made you buy a crappy car that's slow and their commercial made you buy it, you'll make millions!!! But make sure you find an attorney as stupid as this article, otherwise you'll have to go without one.


AudiphileAudiphile - 9/21/2008 12:27:07 PM
0 Boost
Guys - Agent00J is NOT AmazinBimmer! He deserves some respect. Take it easy on the personal attacks, okay?

As for AmazinBimmer - let him have it, boys!


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 2:12:01 PM
-2 Boost
disagree, 00J claims to be a highly trained automive source. Amazinbimmer's posts are pretty amusing sometimes but shame on anyone who wastes the time to take them seriously.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 12:45:25 PM
-1 Boost
OOJ, who is defining class here? You are defifining the class as what you see fit. Audi defined the class as they saw fit for the commercial. Everyone can have there own definintion & use it as they see fit.

" Dynamically the Audi strives to be in the same class as the 3-Series. You can argue all you want that it is not true, but the fact remains that if Audi views its own offerings as a competitor to BMW..."

Who is arguing that this is not true? The Audi ad is comparing their A4 to the 3series. Where did you get this idea? To say that Audi fans want to distance themselves from BMW is rediculous, stop making your points off a small group of teenage fanboys on Autospies.

You are a HACK.

You had no idea what was being mentioned in the commercial, and you didn't even know that the A4 2.0 was available.

You claim to be a highly trained automotive journalist which is just a joke. Anyone could come up with these articles you write and have there facts in order better than you to boot.



StarStar - 9/21/2008 1:11:31 PM
-1 Boost
Buddy, let me make it short for you. Audi is NOT the fastest car in its class and no amount of disclaimers can make up for the amount of bulls**t in that Audi commercial. Period, end of story, fin!

P.S. Stop being an Audi whore.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 1:15:56 PM
-1 Boost
Actually I was pointing out how pathetic the "agents" & fanboys are here


StarStar - 9/21/2008 1:31:29 PM
-1 Boost
the problem is... you are wrong. There is nothing pathetic about this articles. What is pathetic is a claim like this..to quote you:

"Audi defined the class as they saw fit for the commercial. Everyone can have there own definintion & use it as they see fit."


in other words twisting the truth is okay with you. Well. is not okay with me. The amount of bulls**t in your comment way exceeds the limits. You are the definition of a fanboi.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 2:07:30 PM
-2 Boost
also a fanboi is an idiot who just trolls and bashes another brand in its topic claiming how their favorite brand is better rather than contributing to the discussion. You know the types who just post in Audi topics all day bashing but rarely post in their own favorite brands topics.


Agent001Agent001 - 9/21/2008 2:19:52 PM
+4 Boost
All of us agents may be accused of being hacks from time to time but be thankful that unlike at the majority of other sites (Where the writers just re-hash press releases, write their reviews so they get invited to more trips and get freebies and have never owned a car in this category...or a car at all! Yes, I won't name names or sites/mags but the at the MAJORITY of other sites you may frequent or read, the writers don't even OWN A CAR!!!! HOW can you be in this biz and not even OWN any car and pretend to have any credibility!)we are REAL. Yes! REAL owners with REAL opinions that may force you to think once in a while with NO allegiance to ANY brand. We own what we like and we spend a LONG time driving vehicles in these categories, in order that we give you a true perspective of what you may experience should you decide to plunk down your hard earned bucks, on one of these little treasures.

Be THANKFUL for us and our courage to have put the WHOLE auto industry on its ear in 2001 by democratizing this world in order to empower YOU, the readers, even when you don't agree with us.

I may sound conceited but the auto world is a much better place with AutoSpies.com looking out for YOU.

There are A LOT of IMITATORS out there (and we are flattered) but only ONE AutoSpies.com

The authentic item.

Protecting car buyer's everywhere!

SPY, BEFORE you BUY!

001


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 2:25:47 PM
-3 Boost
001, I respect your opinion & your response, I don't see it represented in this article though. I used to turn to Autospies way back in the day 2003 or 2004? for automotive information, upcoming cars, spyshots, etc...

The sight seemed to get out of control & I lost interest & just frequented automotive spyshot-based sites. I've recently come back as Autospies does a decent job of linking all the headlines from other sites together in one convenient website...I think these discussion based articles take away from the credibility of the site though, as long as there appear to be no regulations on who/what can post.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 3:37:00 PM
+1 Boost
00J, I just want to let you know that two nights ago I stopped by the Audi lot after the dealer was closed, and there were three B8 A4 2.0T's.

I also want to let everyone in on the stats.

0-60mph:

2009 Audi A4 2.0T quattro - 6.5 (M), 6.7 (A)
2008 BMW 328xi sedan - 6.9 (M), 7.1 (A)
2008 Lexus IS250 AWD - 8.3 (Auto only)
2008 Mercedes-Benz C300 4Matic - 7.1 (Auto only)

MPG:
2009 Audi A4 2.0T quattro - 21/27
2008 BMW 328xi sedan - 17/25 (really!)
2008 Lexus IS250 AWD - 20/26
2008 Mercedes-Benz C300 4Matic - 17/25

00J, if these specs don't answer your questions, nothing will. The A4 2.0T quattro is pretty clearly the fastest and most fuel efficient car in its class.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 1:42:10 PM
-2 Boost
so what is the truth? that is my point....

What is the class, please define it.

The article is pathetic, maybe there is a valid argument but this all started with OOJ claiming audi was cheating becasue they were obviously comparing the A4 3.2 to the base engine competitors, since the 2.0T "wasn't even available". After that got shut don he conveniently transitioned the arguement into his definition of the class.

To rehash it a few weeks later, yes is pathetic.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 1:43:05 PM
-3 Boost
in response to Star ^^^, btw


StarStar - 9/21/2008 3:14:26 PM
-3 Boost
I think you missed the whole idea here. Audi A4 2.0T quattro is not a class in itself. It is a trim level. You cannot use the trim level that is convenient for you to use and claim that your car is the fastest in the CLASS. Audi did cross the limit with that advertisement by saying that their car is the fastest in the class(which is grossly inaccurate).
If you think about it you can see that any manufacturer could choose a trim that gives unfair advantage over other trims from the competitors and claim that they are the fastest in class. I am disappointed that Audi uses the same cheap technics brands like Pontiac or Hyundai use, in order to get their cars noticed.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 3:26:28 PM
-4 Boost
You failed to define class, yet you continue to use it in your arguement.




S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 3:44:37 PM
-3 Boost
"I think you missed the whole idea here. Audi A4 2.0T quattro is not a class in itself. It is a trim level. You cannot use the trim level that is convenient for you to use and claim that your car is the fastest in the CLASS."

Why not? This is done all the time. The BMW X5 4.8i, for example, is the quickest in its class, although the X5 3.0si is not. The Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG is the quickest in its class, but the C350 certainly isn't. Mercedes-Benz can boast the same for the E550, but not the E350. Porsche's Carrera S with PDK is the quickest in its class, but the 911 Turbo falls short to the Z06 and GT-R.

Star, you're spinning this even more than Audi is. I don't see what's so wrong about their point. The A4 2.0T is the quickest car in its class. Did they say the 3.2 was? No. It isn't. BMW can say the 335i is the quickest, but the 328i and M3 aren't. The Lexus LS460 is among the quickest cars in its class but the LS600hL is the slowest in its field. Like I said, THIS IS DONE ALL THE TIME. It's incredibly stupid for you to say that specific engines are never compared and considered their own segments. They are.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 3:47:22 PM
+1 Boost
If I'm not mistaken is called "entry level luxury" and it refers to models like A4, 3 series or C class, not just ONE trim level. An Audi A4 is supposedly in the same class with a BMW 3 series or C class Mercedes. You cannot take a certain trim of an A4 and compare it with a certain trim offered by 3 series or C class and then claim that the A4 is faster then 3 series and C class. Is like Mercedes would take a C300, put it against a BMW 318i and a 1.8 A4 and then claim that C class Mercedes is faster than the 3 series and the A4.

P.S. The REAL fastest car in this CLASS is the BMW 335i.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 4:05:10 PM
+2 Boost
s4cabrio,

You sound confused and clueless..I don't know where to start.

You put AMG and M mixed in with normal cars? How stupid is that?

335i is the fastest car in its class.(entry luxury)
C63 AMG is the fastest in its class.(high performance sedans)
BMW X5 3.0 and X5 4.4 belong to the same class. Porsche 911 Turbo doesn't compete with econo cars like the GT-R or Corvette. Is like saying that Mitsubishi EVO competes directly with Audi S4.
Mags compare them for fun but that doesn't mean that these cars are REAL competitors on any other level than strictly performance.

The Audi A4 2.0 and 3.2 are in the same class, just different trim levels. Audi a4 2.0T is a trim level not a class. Honda Accord 4 cylinder is not in a different class than the 6 cylinder Accord. Capisci?


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 4:08:46 PM
-5 Boost
well if I'm not mistaken the class I understood this as in the ad was base-engine, AWD, automatic transmission A4, 3-series, IS, & C-class. To me that sounds like about as fair as you are going to get in an ad, ads which by nature are designed to show the superiority of a product vs it's competetors.


I think the biggest "flaw" with the ad is the Audi came out on top.





StarStar - 9/21/2008 4:19:50 PM
+1 Boost
The add doesn't say anything about a base engine and AWD(where you can see it). The add claims that Audi is the fastest car in its segment, which is a huge LIE. But again what else other than lying would put Audi on top.


1dott81dott8 - 9/21/2008 8:18:59 PM
-6 Boost
star - let's get real here, you say "P.S. The REAL fastest car in this CLASS is the BMW 335i." which is untrue because if we were to play your game the the Audi S5 would be the fastest. now you say "entry level" which would be the lowest trim of the model.

it's cool if you want to love bmw but make sense when arguing. no disrespect intended.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 8:57:38 PM
+5 Boost
First the 335i is still faster than the S4. Second, the S4 is not a regular Audi A4, it belongs to a different class. Audi S line use to be a an M competitor but since BMW put this fantastic twinturbo engine in their cars they started to overlap in another class due to the performance. Still the BMW 335i can be had without sport seats or sport suspension but an S4 is born as a dedicated performance sedan.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 9:00:32 PM
+2 Boost
I meant S5.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 1:06:51 AM
-3 Boost
"First the 335i is still faster than the S4."

This is true.

"I meant S5."

This is not.

S5's fastest 0-60mph time: 4.5 sec

335i coupe's fastest 0-60mph time: 4.8 sec

Not to mention, that is without AWD. Neither of them have their dual-clutch gearboxes either.

I acknowledge that the 335i is a far better value than the S5 and it's an awesome overall package, but you can't make things like this up. The 335i is not as quick as the S5, as close as they are. It simply isn't.


StarStar - 9/23/2008 10:19:34 AM
+2 Boost
The 335i is faster than the S5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHj0zbhjLZI


kcl211kcl211 - 9/21/2008 2:56:49 PM
+1 Boost
Agent00J,

Audi's claim is correct technically...

Your quote: "The claim of course was that the new Audi A4 is the fastest car in the segment. This segment was one defined by a automatic 4-Cylinder A4 2.0T Quattro against a Lexus IS250, BMW 328iX and the Mercedes-Benz C300 4-Matic."

The only car here that's a 4 CYLINDER is the Audi..

every other car you are comparing to is a 6-CYLINDER...


StarStar - 9/21/2008 3:17:50 PM
-3 Boost
You don't make absolutely any sense.


kcl211kcl211 - 9/21/2008 3:30:56 PM
0 Boost
well Audi is the fastest 4-CYLINDER luxury sedan.. what's so difficult to make sense of?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 3:45:03 PM
+1 Boost
Their four-cylinder is quicker than all the small six-cylinders.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 3:51:38 PM
-2 Boost
Unfortunately for Audi is not quicker. Well, maybe in the AWD version but that's hardly significant considering how few people want their 3 series or C class with AWD.


aarononymousaarononymous - 9/21/2008 4:09:33 PM
-3 Boost
so if they both lost the weight of the AWD setup or switched to a manual transmission who says the results wouldn't stay the same?


StarStar - 9/21/2008 4:21:41 PM
-2 Boost
The 328i does 0 to 60 in 5.9 seconds. Enough said.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 7:11:10 PM
-2 Boost
No, even BMW says it does 0-60 in 6.9 for the manual and 7.1 for the auto. Those times are underrated by about half a second, but Audi also underrates its times, and says the A4 2.0T does 0-60 in 6.5 or 6.7 seconds. The 2.0T quattro auto is still quicker than the 328xi manual.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 8:02:45 PM
-1 Boost
I was answering the post before mine, so I was talking about the regular 328i not the AWD one. 6.3 is what BMW gives for a regular 328i with manual.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 1:03:22 AM
-2 Boost
OK, well we're not talking about the regular 328i are we?


xcboi02xcboi02 - 9/21/2008 3:51:49 PM
+1 Boost
Here's my take. I really like audi's products and think they do pretty well in their new products.. The New A4 looks really good, the A5 and R8 look nice. I do want to say though that I do in a way agree that Audi was slightly incorrect in my opinion of what the definition of "segment" is and thus whether they are the fastest car in their "segment". I think when you take into account what they define as segment and compare it to your own belief in what a segment is; then that's where this whole issue comes to play.. I don't have anything really against the ad, because Audi has it's beliefs and what they want to tell the consumer, and as long as it's not misleading then fine... They did say, in a way, what the segment is by providing the cars they compared the A4 against. I just don't agree with their definition of segment and the comparison. That's for me to research the information and make my own decision when I do look at the car and its competitors' offerings.

As stated in the article, they used a 2.0T Quattro (AWD) to compare against the competitor's AWD offerings, and said that they were faster than its "segment". If you are going to define the AWD offerings as a segment, then technically it could be correct, as I haven't compared times or what not, nor do I have the technical capabilities to back up Audi's claim. However, I personally think the segment is NOT limited to the AWD offerings of the competitors for a couple reasons. Audi in the US does not offer a non-Quattro based A4. Internationally they do, but it's a FWD car, and I would venture more of the market buys the Quattro than the FWD A4.. Now while BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes have AWD offerings, they also offer RWD cars, which sell more than their AWD offerings, or so I would predict at least; I don't look at the numbers by model... For me, I would define the segment as cars within a price range and comparable options that people for the most part would cross shop against each other, ie 3 series, A4, C-Class, 250/350, etc... And if you want to go even further in depth, the 328 vs A4 2.0T, 250, etc .... as I would predict most (not all..) car buyers would not opt to look at the 335 if they were looking at a lexus 250 or Audi A4, etc. I personally do not think AWD comes into play in the definition of segment mainly because its competitors do not stick with only AWD... Likewise with the RWD/FWD being a definition of segment. The manner in which a company opts to direct its power to the wheels is a wash in my opinion. Some people require AWD, and thus will make the comparison solely to the AWD options the market provides, but that is not all of the market in this segment. You should look at what the market cross-shops against.

When you look into it even further, towards AWD offerings, it becomes a little more shaky when looking at it in the US, because Audi does not have a RWD option available and so it's not like Audi 2.0T competes with the AWD option of BMW and Lexus and others,


xcboi02xcboi02 - 9/21/2008 3:58:33 PM
+1 Boost
(It got cut off..)

the Audi 2.0T in most of the market competes against the RWD and the AWD offerings of BMW. They do have the edge for the AWD (according to them) but not the RWD, as the author pointed out. I personally think since the market looks at both the AWD and RWD, you can't define segment as only the AWD offerings... but thats' my personal opinion. It comes down to what people are looking at and what they compare each car to.

Audi, in it's defense, believes in the AWD system, as you can tell in the products it offers, and thinks it is the way to go, which is why they put an effort to compare itself only to the AWD offerings, and they're allowed that belief, I just personally don't agree. It doesn't matter to me and I'll look at both RWD and AWD offerings when it comes down to me buying it. Audi will do what it believes it needs to do in order to convince the consumer that AWD is the way to go, and they are the better option.

I think for the most part it is just an AD, and most buyers aren't going to only take what the AD says and do their research to figure out what is right and what is wrong. My point is, depending on what the definition of "segment" is, your opinion on this article can change... In any case, this is really just my opinion, and I may be wrong, but that's alright. I just felt like saying what I believe; if you don't agree, that's your right to disagree. :-)


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 9/21/2008 6:09:43 PM
-4 Boost
here we go again...

stupid article leads to stupid discussion.

get a life!

WHO CARES about the freaking article. I like Audis and I will buy them regardless of what any of you clowns have to say about any commercial. What a waste of time reading this freaking website!!!!


JunglejackJunglejack - 9/21/2008 7:09:21 PM
+1 Boost
Hello,
Many of these comments reinforce the worst European car owner stereotypes. I am very happy that Audi has become such a popular manufacturer. I learned to drive on a Tornado Red Audi 5000 CS Quattro when I was 15 and have held an affinity since. The fact remains, in the early 90's, you could not give them away. Some can be attributed to the 60 Minutes hackjob. Most was lack of competitive product.

To many Europeans, Audi is still considered second tier. Mostly the Baby Boomer generation. But still. To many here, Audi appears to be sacrosanct. I love the current offerings and am beyond impressed with the new 2.0T. But I still think the commercial is misleading.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 7:12:24 PM
-2 Boost
Star, I still don't see the problem here. Why is it that class comparisons are used all the time, but Audi can't use it in favor of their product? What is so flawed about this ad? Nothing. The A4 2.0T, which is in a class separate from the 3.2, is the quickest. Case closed. There is absolutely nothing you could say or do to dispute that.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/21/2008 7:13:28 PM
0 Boost
In addition, in case you still think the A4 2.0T isn't quick enough, it's the most tunable out of all the others in its segment, due to it being turbocharged. You could bring it over 300hp pretty easily and it could smoke a 3.2 or even a 335xi.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 8:16:32 PM
+5 Boost
"The A4 2.0T, which is in a class separate from the 3.2:

This is where the problem lies. Both 2.0T and 3.2 belong to the same class(entry luxury) and so are the two BMWs 328i and 335i. If Audi wants to claim that A4 is the fastest in CLASS they have to build an A4 that can go faster than the fastest 3 series, the 335i.

Do you not see how wrong it is for Audi to claim that is the fastest in class? All BMW 3 series versions EXCEPT ONE are faster than the Audi A4 versions and that's enough for Audi to claim their car is the fastest in class? Based on what? On the fact that they beat ONE version(not popular) of the BMW 3 series from the multitude available? Again nobody in the right mind can consider an A4 2.0T in a different class than a A4 3.2. Two trims belonging to the same class(entry level luxury) are not the same thing as two distinct automobile classes.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 8:22:14 PM
+3 Boost
S4,

there is no chip that can bring an Audi A4 to the level of performance of a 335xi. Plus, the 335i is as easy to tune.
2 liter turbocharged 4 cylinder is no match for a 3.0 liter twin turbocharged 6 cylinder engine.


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/21/2008 9:18:43 PM
-6 Boost
Wait for the B8 S4 Star,
We'll See...


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 12:57:34 AM
-3 Boost
"there is no chip that can bring an Audi A4 to the level of performance of a 335xi."

You can tune the 2008 2.0T to the 335xi's level, let alone the 2009:

http://www.stasisengineering.com/Category_Detail_PID.aspx?PID=191

"Plus, the 335i is as easy to tune."

You think I'm stupid? I'm considering getting one and chipping it myself. However, it's this hypocrisy that annoys me. You say you can't tune an A4 2.0T easily, and then you say you can tune a 335i "as easily." Which one is it?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 1:02:12 AM
-2 Boost
"Again nobody in the right mind can consider an A4 2.0T in a different class than a A4 3.2."

So, let me get this straight.

According to you, the BMW 528i is in the same class as the BMW 550i, so it should be compared with the Infiniti M45.

The Mercedes-Benz CLK350 is in the same class as the CLK550, and as such it competes with the Jaguar XKR.

The VW Jetta 2.5 is in the same class as the VW GLI, so it should be cross-shopped with the Mazdaspeed 3.

The Porsche Carrera is in the same class as the GT3, so it should be compared to the Chevrolet ZR1.

The BMW X5 3.0si is in the same class as the X5 4.8i, so the 3.0si should compete head-to-head with the Range Rover Sport Supercharged.

Am I wrong? This is what you're saying.


StarStar - 9/22/2008 9:09:33 AM
+1 Boost
Yes, you are wrong. Let's take your first example.

If Infiniti would make a commercial in which they compare a M45 with a 528i and then claim that Infiniti M is faster than the 5 series(whole class) they would be wrong even if in some little corner of the screen they would mention that the test was done putting a M45 against a 528i BMW. 5 series BMW is a class. 528i is just a trim. Both 528 and 550 belong to the same class. Of course, you should make comparisons in which the trims are more fit to be compared both power wise and price wise but even if an Infiniti M35 might beat a BMW 528i you CANNOT claim that the Infiniti M cars are faster than the 5 series BMW. Do you understand that? If Infiniti or anybody else wants to claim that they are the fastest in the segment or class they have to beat the 550i BMW not just the 528i. If they would say in the commercial that Audi A4 2.0T quattro automatic is faster than the C 300 4 matic and the BMW 328Xi we would not even have this discussion but claiming that the Audi A4 is faster than the 3 series and C class is definitely the WRONG thing to do.

Now the other mistake that you made is putting cars that don't belong in the same class like Jetta 2.5 and the GLI. The GLI is born as a performance sedan. It comes from the factory with sport suspension, sport seats and quicker steering. It is the equivalent of an S4 while let's say an R32 is the equivalent of an RS4 in their price range. There is a big distinction between cars that come standard with performance enhancements and cars that come with standard suspension or seats regardless of the size of the engine. So NO you cannot compare a Jetta 2.5 with a Mazdaspeed 3 because they don't belong in the same class.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 9:21:24 AM
-2 Boost
You are definitely more logical, and less fanboyish, than I had first thought. I respect your view, but I still disagree.

How about, it's time to agree to disagree. We have different views on what constitutes a class of car. You think that Audi's ad is wrong, I disagree, and nothing that either of us could say will convince otherwise.


StarStar - 9/22/2008 9:34:13 AM
+2 Boost
S4,

so you need to spend 5 grand to bring the Audi A4 close to the BMW 335 stock power and $1300 to $1900 to bring the BMW 335 to 400 HP. Is there really any comparison?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/22/2008 7:37:51 PM
+1 Boost
When you're spending $50K vs. $40K on a 335xi vs. A4 2.0T quattro in the first place, absolutely. Not to mention, the A4 is better-looking, more spacious, nicer on the inside and more fuel efficient.


StarStar - 9/22/2008 8:18:51 PM
-2 Boost
I cannot even think to compare the 200 hp Audi A4 against the 300 hp 6 cylinder BMW engine. That's blasphemy.

Audi A4 has nothing on the BMW 3 series. Even the BMW 328i with manual is faster than the new Audi A4 and comes with a buttery smooth 6 cylinder vs the 4 cylinder turbocharged found in the Audi. The BMW is faster, better built, better looking, offers free maintenance and the resale value is stellar. The Audi IMO is boring looking, is based on a FWD platform, it uses an engine and transmission found also in Jetta and Golf cars and the resale value is really bad. I sincerely think that Audi gives you a lot less than BMW for the money.

The tuning capability of the 2.0T is very good but you are on your own when it comes to warranty once you go that path especially considering how poor the Audi dealership service is(at least for a premium brand).
I personally only like the S and RS Audis but unfortunately they are way overpriced.


P.S. Now seriously..are you telling me that for the same money you would take a 4 cylinder Audi A4 over a 6 cylinder BMW 328i because that's something I have hard time believing. I mean, I see that 4 cylinder engine as great in a GTI that costs $10K less and offers three times more excitement than an Audi A4 but in an Audi A4 and especially against that fantastic 3.0 N/A 6 cylinder BMW engine. No chance.




S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/23/2008 1:09:59 AM
0 Boost
"Audi A4 has nothing on the BMW 3 series. Even the BMW 328i with manual is faster than the new Audi A4 and comes with a buttery smooth 6 cylinder vs the 4 cylinder turbocharged found in the Audi."

Are you completely ignoring the facts? Whether you like it or not, the BMW 328 is slower than the Audi A4 2.0T. The advantage of the four is that you also get significantly better gas mileage. It's the best turbo four on the market, having won one of the Engine of the Year awards this year. The BMW inline six is obviously an amazing engine but the 2.0T is, as far as efficiency and speed are concerned, superior.

"The BMW is faster, better built, better looking, offers free maintenance and the resale value is stellar."

The BMW is slower, cheaper built, uglier and offers free maintenance and the resale value is better. It's also smaller, thirstier and more expensive.

"The Audi IMO is boring looking, is based on a FWD platform, it uses an engine and transmission found also in Jetta and Golf cars and the resale value is really bad."

I think it looks amazing (new A4, not the old one), is based on a FWD platform, and neither the engine nor transmission are available in Golf/Jetta cars. The A4 uses the new, Audi-specific 2.0T which is unrelated to the last-gen 2.0T found in VW cars (and the Audi A3 and TT). It also has its own transmissions, obviously.

"I sincerely think that Audi gives you a lot less than BMW for the money. "

You think wrong.

"The tuning capability of the 2.0T is very good but you are on your own when it comes to warranty once you go that path especially considering how poor the Audi dealership service is(at least for a premium brand). "

That's true of any car. When you tune it, there goes the warranty. However, you probably wouldn't even need to tune the new 2.0T, it's so torquey.

I know Audi is notorious for bad service but I personally have not had any problems with my dealer, which is why I've stuck with them and not gone to the other, larger, more convenient dealer instead.

"I personally only like the S and RS Audis but unfortunately they are way overpriced."

This is a misconception. The S5 is overpriced for what it offers but the RS4 is not. It has a lot of standard features missing on the M3 that when equipped on the BMW bring its price up to Audi's level. The S6 is a bargain, especially considering the fact that it has beaten the M5 in two comparison tests, and has never come in last place between it, the M5 and E63 AMG. It apparently has fabulous handling.

"P.S. Now seriously..are you telling me that for the same money you would take a 4 cylinder Audi A4 over a 6 cylinder BMW 328i because that's something I have hard time believing."

Why not? I know the 3.0L is an amazing engine, but in this case, it simply loses. The Audi gives you better performance and better efficiency for less money. Are you missing something here? You might subjectively think it's better because it's a six, but an engine


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/23/2008 1:13:30 AM
0 Boost
You might subjectively think it's better because it's a six, but an engineer would tell you otherwise.

Ironically, BMW is following Audi onto the gravy train and developing their own turbo four which may replace the smaller inline sixes in their lineup. It is a very smart philosophy, reducing weight and improving efficiency without tampering with performance. Look at the new TT-S--sub 5 sec 0-60 times and 25MPG. That's the way of the future.


StarStar - 9/23/2008 10:08:36 AM
0 Boost
"Are you completely ignoring the facts? Whether you like it or not, the BMW 328 is slower than the Audi A4 2.0T"

I'm afraid you are the one ignoring the facts. The 328i goes from 0 to 60 in 6.0-6.1 seconds. The new Audi A4 is somewhere around 6.7-7 seconds with the new engine. The old one could barely move the car in almost 8 seconds from 0 to 60.

And the things you say about engines... Who told you such ridiculous things? Tell me the name of that engineer that claims the 4 cylinder Audi engine is better than that 3.0 inline 6 masterpiece from BMW.

We can agree that turbocharged engines are the future because they cost less and they give you more power and better fuel economy but when you have two similarly priced cars and one comes with a buttery smooth 230 hp 6 cylinder and the other one is just a cheaper turbocharged 4 cylinder with only 200 hp then the choice is only one...the N/A 6 cylinder. Yes, the Audi engine has more torque but it also has less horsepower and in spite of being a refined 4 cylinder, is still a 4 cylinder which means no match for the a BMW 6 inline. Plus like with any turbocharged engine has the performance depending too much on the weather conditions.
I'm sure that the 2.0T engine will be a blast in the new GTI but it has no place as a competitor to a 6 cylinder BMW.

As far as build quality and looks, I guess we also have completely diferent opinions. IMO the BMW is built like a tank and it looks a lot more agresive. Audi has more attention to detail inside but is not as solidly built and it looks more like a European Buick. Big, floaty car with 4 cylinder vs agressive, sharp 6 cylinder car? Is it really a question which one is the real driver's car? I don't think so.



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/23/2008 9:46:13 PM
+1 Boost
"I'm afraid you are the one ignoring the facts. The 328i goes from 0 to 60 in 6.0-6.1 seconds. The new Audi A4 is somewhere around 6.7-7 seconds with the new engine. The old one could barely move the car in almost 8 seconds from 0 to 60."

OH MY GOD.

BMW OFFICIAL SPECS FOR 2008 328 XDRIVE:

0-60 IN 6.9 FOR THE MANUAL, 7.1 FOR THE AUTO.

AUDI OFFICIAL SPECS FOR 2009 A4 2.0T QUATTRO:

0-60 IN 6.5 FOR THE MANUAL, 6.7 FOR THE AUTO.

I can't tell if you're just doing this to piss me off. The specs are right in front of your face and YES you are IGNORING them. You are assuming the new A4 won't be fast because the old one wasn't (and FYI the old 2.0T quattro got from 0-60 in 6.5 in one test), but they are not the same car. The new one is a totally different animal.

You could say that BMW always underrates its acceleration times, but so does Audi, and they both do it to about the same amount. So expect about six seconds flat for the Audi but 6.5 for the BMW.

"And the things you say about engines... Who told you such ridiculous things? Tell me the name of that engineer that claims the 4 cylinder Audi engine is better than that 3.0 inline 6 masterpiece from BMW."

Considering it has more torque, propels a heavier car from 0-60mph in less time and on the way achieves significantly better fuel efficiency, I would say it's pretty obvious. The inline six is smooth but, LIKE I SAID, doesn't offer any actual improvements over Audi's four. In fact, it's worse in just about every way.

"We can agree that turbocharged engines are the future because they cost less and they give you more power and better fuel economy but when you have two similarly priced cars and one comes with a buttery smooth 230 hp 6 cylinder and the other one is just a cheaper turbocharged 4 cylinder with only 200 hp then the choice is only one...the N/A 6 cylinder. Yes, the Audi engine has more torque but it also has less horsepower and in spite of being a refined 4 cylinder, is still a 4 cylinder which means no match for the a BMW 6 inline."

So you've basically ignored everything else I said? Why should I have to go over this again with you if you're not going to pay attention? What, do you have ADHD?

How is the 2.0T cheaper? YOU CAN'T FUCKING GET THIS ENGINE IN ANY OTHER CAR BESIDES THE NEW A4. IT HAS 211HP AND 258LB FT OF TORQUE. The VW GTI, VW EOS, VW Passat, Audi A3 and Audi TT all have a different engine with 200hp and 200 lb ft.

"I'm sure that the 2.0T engine will be a blast in the new GTI but it has no place as a competitor to a 6 cylinder BMW."

Why not, when it's faster, more efficient and, dare I say, more fun? The 328i's engine is very lethargic. When my wife's X5 was in for its first checkup we had a 328xi loaner, which I completely forgot about until just now, and I wasn't very impressed. If I was getting a 3 Series it would be 335i all the way. If I wanted a more economical engine the A4 would be the obvious choice.

"As far as build quality a


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/23/2008 9:48:26 PM
+1 Boost
"Is it really a question which one is the real driver's car? I don't think so."

Yes, it is. As far as I know the BMW 325xi and Audi A4 2.0T quattro have only been compared on one occasion, a Road & Track article from March 2006. Here are the final rankings:

Comparison Test between 7 Luxury AWD Sport Sedan sedans

7th Place Volvo S40 AWD Manual
6th Place Mazada 6 Speed AWD Manual
5th Place Infiniti G35x Auto
4th Place Lexus IS250 AWD Auto
3rd Place BMW 325Xi 6speed Manual
2nd Place Subaru Legacy Spec-B Manual
1st Place Audi A4 2.0 Quattro Manual

They called the A4 "the sportiest of the bunch." Read it and weep.

Keep in mind that, although the 325xi became the 328xi, there were no real suspension improvements. On the other hand the A4 has been completely redesigned, with a sportier everything.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 8:30:23 PM
-1 Boost
Why are you bringing that excuse for a car made by Nissan in this discussion? Infiniti G35 is a f**king tractor. Twisties? Are you crazy? Do you have a desire to die? The G35/37 pig will roll over at the first corner you take with more than 20 MPH. A chipped 2.0T Quattro will walk all over that pile of s**t any day in both straight line speed and handling. G35/37...what a joke.


StarStar - 9/21/2008 8:33:41 PM
-2 Boost
I see you deleted the comment about Infiniti. You can delete my comment too.


LexSucksLexSucks - 9/21/2008 9:16:33 PM
+6 Boost
I don't need Audi (or any other make) to tell me which cars are in which class (and neither should you guys). Its better to ignore manufacture's performance comparisons because they are designed to yield only one result.


makkystylemakkystyle - 9/22/2008 2:30:09 AM
0 Boost
S4cabrio, don't let Agent 00-douche get you worked up over this. He is trying to use you as a smokescreen in a moronic attempt to distract people from his blatant mistake in the first article. It was quite plain to see that he didn't bother to read the fine print and instead of being a man, owning up to it (not "honing" as he so eloquently put it) and moving on he is trying to redefine the argument.

How many of those 5 mortgages are in default J?


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/22/2008 4:44:48 AM
-5 Boost
+1


Agent00JAgent00J - 9/22/2008 1:31:55 PM
+4 Boost
makkystyle - Appreciate the comment. The "Owning" versus "Honing" comment was made from my iPhone, and I didn't realize the mistake until I reread the comment later on.

To answer your question, NONE of the mortgages are in default.

If I really wanted to distract or create a smokescreen regarding the previous article, I would have written about something else.

In terms of the segment, whether you are or anyone one else likes, the segment is defined by cars in addition to the very few Audi included to make their claim, cars like the fast BMW 335i.

We used to accuse MichaelTaylor of drinking the Lexus KoolAid, but it seems to me there is a whole new class of KoolAid drinking folks on here.

You drive your much slower A4, I'll keep driving my much faster BMW's.

-00J
(I can't be 00 douche, we reserved that name for you!)


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/22/2008 12:49:32 PM
-4 Boost
"If you're not gonna ban them, you may as well make them agents and just make this site more of a joke now."

Awesome comment


StarStar - 9/22/2008 5:35:41 PM
+3 Boost
"bulldogz chick" is back spreading more of her bulls**t as usual with no regard to the subject of the thread. Ban this hateful ***ch and stop her from continuously bashing other posters without reason. We don't need her here since she never presented any interest in cars. Let her find a site about fashion or something...


StarStar - 9/23/2008 9:16:38 AM
0 Boost
First, I've been on this site a lot longer than you. Second, your "contribution" on this site equals a big ZERO.
Third, I NEVER said anything about a mainstream car like the BMW 3 series being the end of all or cared about how much money people who buy them have. I really, really don't care how rich people who buy BMW, Mercedes, Lexus or Audi cars are. All I care is who makes the best cars.
Anyway you need to stop acting like a whore on these forums. I never seen you bothered by the trash Teknik aka Staar is writing. Quote(from this thread):

"BMW is pure trash for people who can't afford an Audi."
"BMW owners are of lower economic status than Audi owners"

That doesn't bother you whore? That is one of the most offensive posts in the entire thread but a biased tool like you apparently has a problem only with posters who discredit the Japanese trash. What a whore...


P.S. I noticed you used your new signature..."tool". Good choice. And look more carefully at WHO is deboosted because from where I'm standing appears that you tool, are the one deboosted.



StarStar - 9/23/2008 10:40:27 AM
-1 Boost
Wipe the foam from your mouth, freak. Learn to ignore other people comments if you don't like what they say instead of show everybody how hysterical a clown like you can get. State your opinion and then sign out.

You don't HAVE to start fights with everybody and look like you just escaped from the loony bin. You can actually post something about the subject here (cars) and then sign out. Stop trying to get yourself noticed by attacking some of the "heavy weights" here. It truly looks pathetic. If you crave recognition post for one time in your life something intelligent and maybe related to cars for a change.
Spare us of your usual bulls**t. Enough is enough.





StarStar - 9/23/2008 4:03:18 PM
0 Boost
People don't call me out, tool. Is only you sniffing my a** all the time. You are a loser without a life, with no real automotive opinions and nothing interesting to say. You are after me because you want your 10 minutes of fame against a giant like me. Your posts scream desperately look at me...look at me, I'm fighting mighty Star. You are a pathetic fool who needs to bash somebody of my size in order to get some attention. Keep crawling at my feet, tool and I'm going to crush you like the insignificant worm that you are.


1dott81dott8 - 9/22/2008 10:01:28 AM
-3 Boost
obviosly you're not an enthusiast.


1dott81dott8 - 9/22/2008 11:56:20 AM
-2 Boost
i guess we can say the same for you.


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/22/2008 12:51:30 PM
-4 Boost
So based on your logic,

if the A4 is = to the TSX, then isn't the TSX therefore superior to the 328i?

Audi wins. You suck.


VISOVISO - 9/22/2008 6:09:34 PM
-4 Boost
Not as funny as you BMW clones! All from the same pod to boot...and at least we don't twads like amazingidiot, Star, and whattle as members.


M53RM53R - 9/22/2008 9:43:15 AM
+7 Boost
this whole arguement is pretty stupid. :)


StarStar - 9/22/2008 11:31:30 AM
+2 Boost
While we can argue how much VW is in an Audi or how much Toyota is in a Lexus when it comes to Acura there is only one answer. Acura is simply a Honda. 100% economy car. Don't let yourself fooled by the advertisements in US. Honda TSX is the Honda Accord sold in Europe. It obviously belongs to the economy segment and it never competed with Audi or Lexus. When it comes to cars Acura is the biggest hoax in America followed closely by Infiniti. Economy cars sold for a premium.


JMB1013JMB1013 - 9/22/2008 11:44:59 AM
+1 Boost
I think Audi is going to end the S4 confusion with the next generation. A supercharged 6-cylinder matches up with the 335, while the RS4/RS5 can compete with the C63 and M3. Will the new S and RS beat the competition? I wouldn't say it is probable, but I wouldn't dismiss the idea based purely on the last 6 or 7 years of subpar S4's.


HeyhuubHeyhuub - 9/23/2008 7:22:57 AM
+1 Boost
The V8 S4 was considered one the best S-models ever made when it came out.


AudiNewEnglandAudiNewEngland - 9/22/2008 6:06:22 PM
-3 Boost
BMW sells badges, not cars.


StarStar - 9/22/2008 6:37:55 PM
+4 Boost
"BMW sells badges, not cars."



That comment is just plain stupid.


JMB1013JMB1013 - 9/22/2008 11:51:39 PM
+3 Boost
bimmer,

I was not inferring that Audi was changing the S4's engine as a means to compete with the 335. Rather, the V8 S4 was, for the most part, a flop while the twin turbo 6 generation had much more praise.


Htay7500Htay7500 - 9/22/2008 3:41:42 PM
+2 Boost
Today on the way back from school, I saw a nice looking new A4 wagon. I would love to have that if it came in a diesel, and stickshift.


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