WHO On Earth REALLY Thinks Deep Down Obama Can Save Detroit?

Hopefully he can't.

WHO on Earth REALLY thinks he should???

I guess I'm the only one here who doesn't think that poorly run companies deserve a second chance. Or a third chance in the case of Chrysler.

The three big problems facing automakers are:

(1) Ridiculous, unflexible union contracts (to prep for his inevitiable confrontation with axis-of-evil / foreign country's demands, Barack should start by trying to negotiate with the UAW and knock down some of their unreasonable demands - he might learn something that would be useful later on) which Barack essentially enabled since he sucked up to unions during the election.

(2) Ridculous auto emissions regualation and trade (i.e. country of origin) restrictions.

(3) Incompentant management.

Barack can save the country a ton of bailout money by just addressing the union issue and de-regulating parts of the US auto business.

Chrysler! I totally forgot about them!

Chrysler! I totally forgot about them!

Bailing them out would be the wrong thing.
They should have focused on fuel efficient vehicles like everybody else. Focus on new technology. Not focus on shareholders. In the end it gets them all.
What a mistake to think that what happened to europe couldnt happen to the USA.

Lesson learned, time for a new company to do what the market wants and needs and to thrive to provide jobs.
Not keep a dysfunctional company alive that cant survive in the future anyhow. They had an electric car and killed it. This is what you get.

Im sorry for the people who will lose their jobs, but mine aint safe either.

I, at the same time, also feel sad for the people who will lose their jobs, but I think that it's the best for many that we let the companies go bankrupt and restart again without the union.

Reason why?
- It's quite evident that the union works are doing the most damage. The school union harmed schools' attempts to layoff old teachers for new ones with potential money for some pretty good ones rather than simply counselors. The Writer's Guild union have already had their harm done to Hollywood. It's pretty obvious that in the end, the domestics can't really start over without rethinking their idea of a work crew...better to risk losing a job forever than to lose money for rest of the future.

And going back, why did I say "best for many"?
- Well, think about it. Where does the government's money come from? What is it supposed to do? Should what the government's idea of spending money comply with ours? If the chances of GM surviving are so low that they purposefully delay their "wanted" model debuts to times they might not exist, why should they deserve the money? I don't think our tax money is being very well spent here!

It's like the stats for the use of the atomic bomb. If it's possible that one bomb (two, or rather) can greatly shorten a war and save more lives, there's nothing worse than not using the bomb. (Remember, there weren't many 'good' options during the war; GM and Ford, right now, do.) In the case of bailing the domestics, I don't think that the taxpayers will be happy; the white collar workers might get laid-off with little potential for a new job; a majority of the union workers risk losing a lasting job...I don't see much benefits in the bailout! This bailout doesn't really work the same way as the Wall Street bailout! NO BAILOUT, PLEASE!!!

If there is a bailout, it should have provisions like:

Ford:
Has to drop Lincoln and Mercury.

GM:
Has to drop Buick and Pontiac.

Chrysler:
Has to drop Chrysler.

There is no need to produce 3 copies of a crappy car. Surely one is plenty.

I would recommend to Obama the BEST thing he could do is to tell Americans to buy ANY vehicle made in the USA and get a full price tax deduction.

And if you're a small business, you'd get a 2x deduction on any vehicle purchase.

And double all incentives (consumer/small biz owner) if they buy an alternative fuel, diesel or a 27+ MPG (city).

And it would have to be bought before 4/15/09 to qualify.

That would buy all these guys time.

Right now.

001

And throw in 0 percent 60 month loans as a bonus for all these purchases.

001

Yeao, and i'm sold. I just bought my 1st American car.

That would get me out of the kraut mobile. Why the heck aren't you one of his economic advisers?

I'm available for the new President if he needs my recommendations...

001

As usual you are spot on, the policy and the timing are the critical part. The product is already well within the ballpark. Drove CTS/V at track day at Monticello motor club last weekend, we don't want to lose this new round of detroit product.

This would only buy time. Detroit is going down. The only thing that can save them is if they buy half of GM & Ford.

I have a question though. That would hurt Nissan, Toyota, etc. workers in the U.S. as well. Is that fair?

Obama is/will a/be/a paper President with a coat of water repellent.

Goodbye GM.

Aside from years of bad product, the UAW and the pensions and other perks have hurt the Big Three.

Let me state before I get slammed here, the people who earned the pensions and other benefits deserve them, it is the promise itself which has hurt the UAW and by default the Big Three.

Being able to clear the books of 2-3 generations of people who have been promised certain items coupled with increasingly better product will help save the Big Three.

I think the UAW needs to be broken, allow the Big Three to operate under a "right to work" climate that doesn't pay someone 90% of their salary when the product they build isn't selling thereby shutting down the factory.

Make the workers of the Big Three accountable for the quality of product produced, don't reward crap with sweet benefits.

That is how the rest of us work, if we don't perform, we get fired and replaced.

-00J

Amen! Thank God for intelligent commentary.

001,

"No one, not Obama, Pelosi, McCain, Palin, Biden, Frank, Romney can SAVE Detroit."

That by far is the sanest thing you've said so far this week!
Turbospyder had a similar post earlier (http://www.autospies.com/news/GM-shares-plunge-after-analyst-sees-them-hitting-zero-37308/) and this is part of what I had to say about it:

"But GM can't die, just like AIG can't die either. It's would cause a catastrophic domino effect on not just Americans, but the global economy as well.
If GM dies, thousands to hundreds of thousands become unemployed by GM.
The ripple effect would continue to the supply chain, the suppliers. Those companies would be forced to layoff employees or go under as well. Then we are talking hundreds of thousands to millions unemployed.
I haven't even gotten to the investors and creditors involved. Individuals 401K plan have investments in funds that incorporate some of the companies that would all fall.
They fall, so will your 401K. Etc., etc., etc.

Yeah, it's a simplistic explanation but it's better than just saying that GM should reap what they sow."

Thanks for that comment. Obama has to save Detroit, it's not even an option, without them MILLIONS OF JOBS WOULD BE LOST. MILLIONS!!! We will be in not only a recession but a very great depression that probably would take at least a decade to pull out of.

Obama will give them the money. It's just not an option, Detroit it just to valuable just like AIG, Citi-Group, Chase, Bank Of America, AA, Delta, Apple, etc....

Not only to mention if they go down, dealerships will fold and who will carry out warranty work or service for the cars if all the dealerships close up?? Wow this is a hell in the making... I don't think the government should pump money to them only to cover the high up there's salaries...I am not really sure what they are able to do for them if anything...

The ripple effect would impact almost 5% of the U.S. workforce.

Sure he can.

All he has to do is back a merger between Toyota and GM.

In other words, ask Toyota to run GM.

That would fix things.
Unfortunately for GM, nobody high-up in Toyota is stupid enough to buy into that.

TRUE, TRUE!

But if the US government bankrolls that merger, maybe Toyota can be persuaded. Yeah I know, dream on. What if Florida could’ve just gone to Gore in 2000?!

What is the point of brand loyalty if it means the General filing for bankruptcy?! It’s not being anti-American, it’s being pragmatic. This is what happens when you base your business strategy on the flawed notion of the land of eternally cheap gasoline.

A merger would not only be cheaper than the planned corporate welfare handouts, but its also in the US best geopolitical interest.

On the immediate surface, do US taxpayers really want to keep bailing out union workers making $73/hr?

Also, think of what makes Toyota an innovative success --- the pioneering of green technology.

It’s not only good for the environment, but most importantly lessens the economy’s dependence on Mideast oil.

That sounds a lot like an Obama campaign mantra.

Speaking of Obama saving Detroit...has anyone seen the photos on websites of the new OBAMA-MOBILE now undergoing testing?....I'm sure that's a Chrysler 300 from the windshield back....maybe this is the first GM-Chrysler 'merger mobile'?....

Maybe the problem is that GM is such a large company. If the loans were made on the condition that all the GM companies be broken into separate companies then if one of the resultant smaller companies goes under, then it's not a catastrophic problem. Anyways, if GM's suppliers can't sell to GM, then whoever gets their market share will also, most likely, they will need parts from those suppliers, so it's not like they will automatically be out of business. The beeakup can be done- just remember Ma Bell and the Brothers Bell.

*breakup

Great point!! hell we gave billions to the taliban way back and now were fighting them. we waste billions on the war and get nothing in return why can't we pull the troops out and re-structure the big 3 so people won't be getting $35/hr to watch an plastic door panel go by in an air conditioned factory. If they go on strike, fire them and replace them with people who want to work and won't complain abbout their already great pay rate. they'll get the message when they try to find a job in the real world paying over $20 to sit around.

Can he? I doubt out, but he sure as hell is going to try with whatever it takes. Bushy bailed out Wall Street and the Bankers (a big constituent) and now Obama and Congressional Dems will do it for Domestic Autos AND their Union buddies. Unions gave too much money in this election to the Dems to not get a payback. Hell, you saw Obama already try and talk Bush into doing it when they met yesterday, according to reports. (Nice political move, by the way)
This is not going to be easy. I think Detroit and the Unions dug their grave for many years and we can't afford another bailout of any industry. We can't even afford the one we gave WS/Banks, but now the flood gates are open. Next will be airlines, then what? You have to draw the line somewhere.
I actually like the tax credit/deduction idea mentioned above, but I'm not sure that will do much, especially if people aren't working. Couple that with Obama's promise to raise taxes and renegotiate international agreements (NAFTA) and this thing could unravel more quickly than you can say Great Depression. I'm not an Obama supporter, but I certainly don't want bad things to happen to the US and "hope" some of that "change" he brings works in some way. If he's smart he'll listen a lot more to Buffett/Volcker than Granholm (MI governor). Good luck.

Obama is in because he is new, unknown and offers what to some are fresh new ideas. I have great ideas about clean energy by building new nuclear plants, but you sure as hell wouldn't want me around to run them or to deal with an accident.

Obama has never managed anything... not a corner store, not a little league team, not a small town, probably not even the family checkbook. The idea from anyone that he has any concept of how deep in over his head he is just shows how shallow our political system is and how easily you can sell ideas to the unimformed.

The money changers and lawyers that run GM, Ford and Chrysler long since got away from making quality cars and spend more time buying and merging to make them selves bigger with more financial leverage. But the net result is they are poorly managed and do not have a focus on Cars or the people who buy/drive them. So when they fall, the impact will affect everyone. The UAW is it's own topic on greed.

I am a pure capitalist and largely believe you need to let business deal with risk and reward. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I know what it isn't - and that's listening to any idea from anyone with a .gov email address.

The people who founded the USA were big on ideas and very smart, but nobody had experience running a country. Somehow, it worked out. Power corrupts, and in America, Canada, and any other democracy, you eventually have to oust the party that's been in power for a while. Sad, but true.
(the problem isn't democracy ... its human nature)

@ cantaffordone,

Damn, you need to educate yourself with actual facts over "talking points" when it comes to politics. Try these:

http://www.factcheck.org/ (nonpartisan)

http://www.npr.org/ (It's not a revenue generating news division of a network, which has completely killed ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, etc.)

I think you are forgetting Obama just successfully ran a 2 year campaign that employed thousands of people and raised almost 1 billion.

A lot of good that Harvard law degree did...he thinks there are 57 States in the Union, but I guess the neutral press, like NPR, were too busy worrying about serious issues like Palin's wardrobe. And by the way, Bush went to Yale and Harvard, but somehow I bet you think he's not real smart.

And factcheck.org has already been put to task for their so called non-partisianship. (see John Lott) And if you think NPR is neutral because they aren't part of a "revenue-generating network", you are delusional. And I guess Bill Moyers is really center-right in his policial philosophy?

Bottom line is, as an American, I wish our President-elect well even though his policies, if implemented, will be even more of a disaster, IMO. Now the left is in complete control, so we'll see how well they handle it. My guess is it will still be "Hitler's", I mean Bush's fault in 4 years if things don't work out.

Oh, and Obama wasn't the "genius" behind his campaign, you can thank Axelrod and Plouffe for that....just like Rove was for Bushy.

Yes he can

Something needs to done for the big 3, something needs to be done to the uaw. but letting GM fail is not the anwser. If GM fails and 2 million people loose their jobs then in the first 6 months there would be over 20 billion dollars in unemployment benifets just for GM and their suppliers. Right now there is an extention on unemployment to 9 months so there is another 10 billion for the extra 3 months. Then think of foodstamps and medicaid for kids. and the loss of insurance premiums, so there goes Anthem. the list goes on and on. They did it to themselves but just like the banks the govement can't afford to let them fail. I think it would be silly not to spend 50-100 billion to save 1 trillion. Also if they fail the economy would be in shambles for years.

Nobody can save Detroit as it exists today. But that does not mean that the US car industry will vanish. There will have to be a serious restructuring of the business, so that the resulting (smaller) companies are long-term viable. Then (and only then) the Obama administration can help them with loans (at least loan warranties) and incentives/subsidies for improving mileage and/or emissions.

I think the fact that GM and Ford European operations are competitive, producing many good cars well suited to a market with very high fuel prices, proves that they can be successful. But they need to be dramatically reorganized first.

What got the world out of depression in the 30's was WW-2.
So, if you think that can be repeated, then maybe Bush already started the bail-out. You just need to get GM building more military vehicles.
Now if we could just figure out how to get an Impala to reliably traverse sand dunes, we'd have this problem licked!

but raising the taxes on corporations, raising capital gains and taxes on the wealthy, or people manking over 250k, 200k, 150k, oops i mean now 120k, will not put any more money in ANY ONES pockets except the government. If Obama wants to get people spending, he will need to slash taxes across the board. FOR EVERYONE! Put more discretionary spending in the consumers hand, and you will see the economy start to turn around. Is it not a surprise to anyone that since Obama was elected the market has reversed the trend that it had made the two weeks up until the election. No one noticed that when the poll numbers from IBD showed them closing the market was swinging up, but as soon as the election concluded, and people fell for smooth talk, the market reacted accordingly to what he plans on doing. You'd be smart to get out now and not pay his capital gains later, of course with such depreciation it will be a while till anyone pays capital gains...

Obama can not save Detroit, first of all, Bush is still president, so it is currently in his lap to solve it, second, the people of Michigan have been electing the same officals for years to D.C. to represent them, and those people have failed them year after year, if they are to stupid to fall for the lies of the UAW bosses, and keep voting the same people in, maybe they shouldn't have those jobs.

Last - we spend WAY more money a year on illegal immigrants than we do on the war...and i'm sure the people of Irag love you wishing that we wouldn't have gone there, they enjoy their freedom, ask the soldiers that come back...i have.

Bimmerfan25

Why is it that whenever you disagree with someone on this sight, they are a lunitic, crazy, ignorannt, idiot ... enough with the name calling. If you want people to pay attention to your ideas, you might try showing a little respect.

cantaffordone,

Wow...where to even start...

Obama, actually Obama/Biden, didn't win because they are "new and unknown", they won because they were the better option than McCain/ Palin. If it was Obama vs. McCain, I think it would have been closer, but it wasn't. Adding Palin and the disastrous 8 prior Republican years, McCain wasn't strong enough to pull it off. I don't think there would have been a republican ticket that could overcome the multiple bullet-holes-in-the-feet that the Bush administration had "administered".

If your ideas about clean nuclear energy were any good, you would be running the plant and be prepared to deal with an accident. If you're not prepared to do those things it means you can't possibly have enough information or insight about every aspect of nuclear power or green energy to form a "good idea". You're ignorant. It's like saying "I have a great idea! If people are starving in Africa, why don't they just move to France?".

If Obama had run a corner store, little league team, a small town, you'd just chastise him for not having run a WalMart, Major League ball team, or big city. Your statements are intentionally condescending and inflammatory, not factual or unbiased. Sell ideas to the uninformed? Please. He's not in office because of smoke and mirrors like some worlds fair snake-oil salesman. How do you explain the approval rating for Bush. Are all the people that voted for him who now wish they could take it back all suddenly "uninformed" as well. I mean, based on their logic, they must have been "informed" when they voted...

You're as bad as the right-wing Fox reporters who regularly slipped and called him "Osama" and consistently used his full name, including his middle name Hussein, in an effort to rile up the only kind of people who eat up that kind of below-the-belt attack politics; uninformed Republicans and ignorant racists/ bigots.

Try being informed instead of just opinionated. It's harder, I know, but if you were maybe you'd be shown some respect in return.

I understand the aurgument for the government not bailing out Detroit. Detroit has never been proactive about anything only reactive to what the market was doing. Further for it took them too long to be even reactive quickly enough. The culture of Detroit has to change. The government should bail them out but put preconditions on Detroit on car development. Further there has to be an analysis on costs to develop small cars versus foreign competition. If the unions are going to continue to be supported(which I'm against)then there has to be tarrifs of some kind on any foreign car maker that has a factory in the US. Provided there is an even playing field then it is all about product. A more immediate reason that Detroit has been going down the tubes is the tight credit market. The government must force banks to lend money. Detroit in the mean time has to down size significantly. Duplicate product lines have to stop asap.

What if GM (& Ford) sold off their foreign plants and companies?
That would generate some cash, and reduce their costs (salaries).
The US gov't should only be bailing US workers/citizens, not employees on other continents!

I think the best option is a foreign buyer (probably Chinese) who wants the existing dealer network to get a jump in North America.
They would be smart enough to keep the models that are in demand (Sierra, Colorado, Malibu, Impala, Acadia, ...) and kill off the lame ducks.
The gov't just has to impose a rule stating that they keep some portion of the US production capacity going (maybe 75% ???) which can be filled with 50% of the current "good" product and 25% with some tiny cars designed off-shore, or whatever they want.
Then there would be a transition time whereby the foreign maker could reduce production in the US (spread over 2 decades possibly) so that the reduction can be accomplished mostly by attrition (retirements, folks changing careers, etc.) and not affecting existing employees.
Finally, the new owners will be under the existing "domestic content" rules and AutoPac rules, so they have to build the cars from North American parts (mostly) or they are subject to import duties.
In exchange for the initial "American Content" stipulations, the gov't could subsidize the US salaries (partially) ... that would be the extent of the bailout.
This might be a relatively low-cost solution compared to other options.
-just the ideas of the CEO of a small North American manufacturing company...

Maybe Toyota, Nissan or Hyundai?? Long shot: indianTata?

Strange times indeed.

Only Ford will survive, because Europe like it.

The new Mondeo was awarded "Car of the year" in many countries around Europe. The new Ka and Fiesta are big hit here. C-Max and S-Max has strong positions, Transit and Transit Connect still are awarded. Only Focus in not so new, but is better looking than Toyota Auris and cheaper than Civic.

May be Ford made only one mistake in Europe. They should not spend so much money for creating Kuga, when they could bring Edge here. Edge is better looking and enough small for Europe.

So do not worry about Ford, but GM and Chrysler are almost dead!

How did GM suppose that Europe will buy Daewoo under cover of Chevy, even if they are sooooooo cheap!?!?!?!

GM also has a huge presence in China and is one of the largest producers of cars in that emerging market. Chrysler made a huge mistake cheapening it's interiors, when it should have been upgrading the plastics instead. Typical, shortsighted thinking for American car manufacturers.

America is typically cruel when it comes to huge, poorly managed companies going under. America practically invented automobile manufacturing, but to be honest the only thing that has mattered to these giants is quarterly profits and not long term viability. They have had 2 HUGE opportunities in the '70's to turn things around and they did nothing. This was in the 1973 oil crisis and in 1978 when Ross Perot, who was the largest stock holder in GM at the time, that he told the GM board that they were losing 1% of the US automobile market to imports every year and they had better come down from their white towers and see the junk they are producing. They got sick of his rants and bought him out for 750 million dollars. Now, the big 3's products are decent, but it's a day late and a dollar short. I say, let them fail and they will then get right-sized and then someone can build them back up from the bottom up. Throwing an influx of cash at the problem will not put their problems in to perspective and I for one DO NOT want my taxes used to delay the inevitable failure of these bloated companies problems.

Bloated eh? GM alone has cut tens of billions from payroll since 2005. If our economy was back up to where it should be, GM would be raking in billions.

If we had a government that wasn't run by morons with either redneck republican ideas (screw over all american industry, make everyone poor except for the guys on top) or green tree-huggers with no perception of reality, we all would be fine.

Cut the oil speculators out of the picture, cut the CAFE standards to something reasonable and leave the diesel emissions standards at their 2007 levels, if not their 2006 levels. Also, DONT LET THE ALTERNATIVE FUEL CO.'s DIE due to cheap oil right now.

GM & Ford are both producing great cars for a couple years now (finally). Ford's quality rating is on par with Toyota/Honda, GM has done amazing things with respect to quality, design, ecnomy, power, utility, etc. Problem is, for all the above mentioned reasons (lack of planning, a few union issues, greed / wall st.) the domestics got caught. The biggest problem is the American consumer is too lazy / stupid to even bother looking at a Big3 product when going to search for a car.

Most of all, OIL started this massive destruction of detroit. If we had controlled the oil speculation from the git-go (about 2 yrs ago), Detroit would have been able to make all the massive changes they were making in an environment that didn't require any government aid.

For everyone who "doesn't want their tax dollars going to bloated, inefficient companies" (which is a total load of crap BTW), you all are incredible hippocrites. You are the same people that are upset that the Big3 didn't have "long-term" outlooks in the 70's, 80's & 90's, but your short-sighted comments show that you don't know what "long-term" even means. You're all just spitting the same rhetoric of those who just hate Detroit, so stop.

I didn't see this much up-roar when we invaded Iraq... how dumb can we Americans really be.

Canada has no business running America...

We have enough beer and hockey supplies to go round.

**Joke**

Even so, i still do find it funny when I see canadian $5 dollar bills and there are kids playing hockey printed on the bill.

Canada has enough trouble running Canada.
That's a bizarre suggestion!

Japan rebuilt new factories that were bombed during World War II. America helped build modern plants in the Asian World. Additionally Japan has a National Healthcare system for workers.

America needs to rebuild more modern factories in order to compete with such a model.

It is like going to work and be given a wooden desk with a typewriter, and management tells you to compete with the people on the other side of the room who work in glass offices, armed with computers, printers, scanners and the most expensive software.

Can you compete with such a model?

How efficient could you produce with a typewriter?

Can You type at the speed of a new printer cranking out 100 pages per minute, error-free?

Most Americans would quit before their first day on the job had ended under such conditions.

Just something to stew over....immediate 2,000,000 job losses and the according to some labor statistics, up to 15 jobs support each OEM job. Do the math, then see if it would be in anybody's interest for The Big 3 to go belly-up. We're talking depression with a big "D" here if that were to happen. After that with all the guns out there don't think for a moment there won't be a civil war. Hmmmm. BTW, all you green-heads: you'll still need a strong manufacturing base to accomplish your hearts desires.

theSailor,

If GM sold the same number of cars from Jun-Oct2008 as it did in Jun-Oct2007, it would be ROLLING in Billions.

A little research goes a long way.

I think the US is long overdo from imposing tariffs on imports. I'm pretty sure other countries do it to our products. This I could see helping Detroit somewhat.

Holy crap! An intelligent, informed comment. Is that allowed here?
Seriously, there are some great postings on this topic ... I think some of the Auto-spies would be better at running GM (or the US Gov't) than the management they have now.

I'm really sick and tired of hearing about this crap bailout, paying the rich to get richer. Where are our leaders those who we voted for to help the average people and not their rich friends and themselves in the process? Barack Husain Obama said lots of crap and all he'll do is more crap. Detroit's problem is not money but management and honesty.

I think the trick is to bail-out GMs employees, without rewarding its lame management.
Somehow keep the engineering, workers, plants, pensions, and competitive models alive, but let the company and upper management (who are to blame for its current sad state) go tits-up.

But I don't have a clue how that could happen.

People against the bail-out know that GM screwed up and deserve what they are getting.
But the workers and engineers had no input in the planning process, and the people in favor of the bail-out want to keep them from harm.
Especially the poor sucker who's worked for GM for 40 years and is a year away from retirement ... does anyone really want to see this loyal American lose his/her pension?

What a dilemna!