Last Ditch Deal With Automakers May Get Approval- But Can They Be Trusted?

It will be a very very sad day if this bailout is approved.
Very sad.

Yea, it'll be so sad. You will have to see the avoidance of a depression. So sad.

Idiot.

Autospies needs a bandwidth bailout. It's very slow these days.

It's that dang Commodore 64 server we have....

HAHA, i had a commodore64 way back when...

Also, are you all seeing that "The page at http://www.autospies.com says:" "0" message? Pops up a lot over here. (FF 3.0.4)

Nope, no tape station, I had the high-tech 5" floppy drive

"Last Ditch Deal With Automakers May Get Approval- But Can They Be Trusted?'

Get rid of the UAW and I will help the big 3 get out of the ditch!

Get rid of UAW, pensions, replace management, and make all management pay performance based and we have a deal.

Now about the Autospies bailout....or "loan"....yes we need more so lets send 009 to congress driving a Yaris and see what happens!

Me in a Yaris? ...I shudder

Could get you an Aveo if it makes you happier....

slap a turbo in there, performance wheels, tires and brakes....you'd have all the ladies

Let the big3 have the money, even if it costs $50billion. Think of it this way...

1) Big3 have been MASSIVELY restructuring in the past few years. GM alone has shed 47% of its workforce since 2003. Ford, GM & Dodge are all very lean at this point, and they're only getting leaner.

If the economy turns around, and gas stays STABLE around 2.60-3.00, there will be an interest in high-mileage vehicles, and people will be buying again. Then since the companies are so lean, they make monster profits and We (the US Taxpayers) see returns on our investments...bigtime.

Also, GM & Ford are massively globalized. If things turn around, they create a revenue stream INTO the USA instead of everything else taking money OUT OF the USA (see oil, electronics, etc).

2) Alternative - No bailouts, Big3 die. Millions of people out of work, government has to fund millions of pensions and healthcare. We go into massive depression, violence becomes rampant and America ceases to be anything near a world power. Then, not only do we send hundreds of billions a year to the middle east, we'd be sending extra hundreds of billions to the Japanese and Koreans. Common mathematics shows that when you drain a tank of water and don't fill it up, eventually you run dry.

End point... The Big3 HAVE to survive, America's long term power depends on it. We need their R&D, we need their technology, we need their manufacturing, we need their jobs, and they give us some a real business. By real business, i mean a non-service based business, something that actually has property, and machinery.

Also, who will build all of our commercial vehciles if they die? Who will build the cargo vans & ambulances? Who will build the police cars? How's about the construction workers & contractors?

Long term costs of Auto industry Loan:
Worst case: $25 billion
Best case: we make money, in the billions and hundreds of billions if they are successful.

Long term costs of letting the industry die:
-Millions unemployed, hundreds of billions if not trillions of GDP gone. No military-industrial capabilities. Depression, famine, possible civil war.

Wake up America!! Make your next buy American!! Of course... if you really want some foreign car (b/c it inspires you like the G37 or the S-class) go for it. But if you are buying everyday cars, do yourselves, your communities and your country a favor and support the home teams. They have great products that are reliable, sporty, efficient and cost competitive.

Also, for anyone who doubts what i've said about fuel economy, go to www.fueleconomy.gov . You will see what I am talking about.

The argument that "big3 make poor quality cars" is also false. The ratings for quality are skewed.. Heres an example. On a scale of 0-100 (100 is the best), in 1980, toyota may have been a 60 while GM was a 35. Today, toyota might be 85 while GM is 84.5. People will rant and rave all day about how much better toyota is.... but in the big picture its the same. And GM has stellar warranties, and you help save america from ruin.

OK im dont with my rant. Sorry for it being so long.

3) Ford, GM, Chrysler die. Honda, toyota and VW take their place buying the factories and minimal amount of people lose their jobs. Companies make major success with alternate fuels and vehicle options as they have a much better understanding of what kind of product the customer wants.

The only "alternative fuels" companies in the USA are the big3 (E85), MB & VW (diesel).

Apparently these companies you've mentioned DONT have a better understanding either.. Toyota has tens of thousands of cars sitting in Long Beach Docks, so does Mercedes & Nissan. The markets are crap. Big3 have very attractive vehicles, its just that A)No one is buying anything these days (even retail) and B)Too many Americans don't even bother to look at the Big3 Vehicles. You can't stand there and tell me that the Camry is a more attractive and efficient vehicle than the Malibu. You'd be a lying to yourself.

Also, like I mentioned above, AMERICA cant have any more capital outflows that we already have. We are going to be destroyed. Remember, an auto company is more than a couple execs and a bunch of line workers, theres armies of engineers and developers too. Do we really want to loose all that R&D? Do we really want to have any R&D that is done here in USA belong to the Asian companies? If the sh** really hits the fan here in America, you think the Japanese and Koreans are going to be here sticking it out with us? Hell no, they are going to pack up and leave as soon as the money is gone. GM/Ford/Chrysler are embedded American companies, theyre here for the long haul (provided they can stick around).


Think of it this way.... its 3 years down the road and the markets have picked up and the economy is doing well. Would it be better is the Big3 were selling well and making money, or the Japanese. Just because the Asian OEM's have some plants here doesnt make them American and doesnt make it OK to buy Japanese when the Big3 offer as good (if not better) products. Support your own country. Americans need to wake up and realize we can't let go of an industry that's definately on the right track but got blindsided by unregulated oil and resulting collapse of the financial markets.

How about we give Wall St. to the Asian banks too? Speaking of Wall St., I heard they want another 1.2 Trillion. Lord knows they'll get it and there will be 1/1000 the opposition compared to the auto bailout.

America... wake up.

Also Veyron1001, Im offering a $10000 reward for anyone who can show me the thugs that the Big3 hired to make people buy big SUV's and trucks they didnt need. How did the Big3 sell so many trucks & SUV's if the consumer didn't want them.... Tony Soprano must have been contracted and his goons broke enough knee-caps to force people.

End point - Big3 make good cars, but the markets have collapsed. The Imports are posting losses and have a glut in supplies. Everyone is being hit hard, its just that now all the people who for some reason hate the Big3 (mostly b/c its trendy) have a chance to voice their stupid opinions. I turn the TV on for 10 minutes and the bogus lies and myths just come rolling out. Congress thinks that GM hasnt developed a new vehicle since 1994. They keep saying over and over again "the Big3 resisted fuel economy standards" but they dont mention that GM alone is on-par, if not a few mpg better than most toyota models. The Prius gave such an image to Toyota, and our politicians are so dumb that this kind of crap gets said.

Don't worry, theyre coming!!

Ford is planning on bringing quite a few models over (thank god, although the fusion/milan is a nice car).

As for GM.... Opel Insignia... gorgeous. Wait for the Saturn version and GM is to unveil the new Buick lacrosse soon.

Turn off the lights on your way out...as sad day for the automotive industry here in the US. So many great nameplates - Packard, Duesenberg, etc. will soon by joined the GM who once had iconic brands in Cadillac and Buick way back then. So much tradition will be lost. I guess we will be able to observe the cars in museums in the future. What a vaccum this will create in the American automotive landscape as well. What happens to all the commercial trucks etc that are still needed?

*Light switch off and it goes dark*

We're not talking about a "lights out" bankruptcy for either of these guys. The only people turning out lights will be the UAW. And well. . . you get what you gave.

Why is everyone so anti-UAW.... God, its like whatever is trendy these days is just mindlessly spit by everyone.

The UAW was effectively broken last year when they agreed to a new pay scale and the UAW took on responsibility of their pensions/healthcare. They are the least of the Big3's worries right now. Just generating sales in this crap market is the biggest problem.

Hell Nal

Bottom line in order for the Big 3 to survive they need to do the following
1)Renegotiate the contracts with the UAW so that after the pensions/healthcare are taken over in 2010 the salaries are identical to non-UAW workers.
2)GM needs to get rid of some brands either by selling them or liquidating them Hummer,Pontiac,GMC,Saab. I did not include Buick because their Chinese sales are strong.Ford needs to get rid of the Town Car and Marquis and set the Fusion and Milan for another restyle as in the Euro Ford Mondeo.Chrysler needs to merge with another automaker so they can replace their midsize and smaller vehicle.It should not be GM.All trucks from the big 3 need to be diesels and hybrids or both.Further every product line now has to have interior quality comparable to the foreign competition.

Mini,

I mostly agree, but killing off brands costs LOTS of money, especially with all the lawsuits that ensue. GM is still fighting court battles over the closing of Oldsmobile.

Another thing is, having those "extra" brands does generate extra sales and at a cheap cost. The cost to "re-badge" is really not that much and if it can generate a decent sales number, then its worth it.

Hummer might have to go. If GM picked up Chrysler in this whole mess, I say kill Hummer and keep Jeep. Everyone loves Jeep and I have to admit, even I was impressed when a friend took me around in his 2009 Grand Cherokee with the new 5.7L. What a nice ride, and the instrumentation panel, interior, etc was VERY nice, even though you can tell theres a bit of plastic. Chrysler really did a good job there, the grand cherokee (IMO) is a hit.

People point the finger at Pontiac a lot, and I can somewhat understand, but then again, even in these bad economic times, Pontiac still outsells many competitors, like mazda, scion, etc. And cmon now, you gotta love the G8. Even with the V8 it still gets good mileage, just talk to an owner (forget the EPA and the treehuggers, the G8GT can easily get 27-28mpg HWY).

Another thought-If the Big 3 want this loan for 25 billion they should bring 10 of their vehicles each to Washington and have all the Senators go drive them to see for themselves if the quality is there.

1UAW: You're so dang bias its pathetic. Your autospies ID says it all. You sound like one the typical UAW people noted in another blog; let the government bailout the auto industry. Why didn't you and your UAW kronies think about this 20, 25 years ago. Because over the years Ford & GM built more trucks and SUVs than the other auto makers. Because there is almost a $3000 difference in the per unit price on each vehicle that GM and Ford must make up to pay for your greed. I know this because my brother worked at Ford 32 years and recently took his retirement buyout package. Yeah lets not forget that the automakers at Ford had three different buyout packages for Sterling Heights, MI plant where my brother was employeed at; $35k plus health insurance; $75K and only a minimum percentage Health Insurance paid; $140K no health insurance paid if you had 30 years or more of service in his plant. We had to pay all this money big the UAW had these provision in the contract if any of the Big 3 laid people off or gave madatory retirements. I NEVER bought a car under his "Employee Purchase A-plan". Your UAW greed in past years, along with poor management decisions on products, quality controls and getting the product to the market quick enough, is part of the current problem now. So don't go telling all how bad it will be and asking for a handout from the government, then expect the taxpayers to bail you out again when it doesn't succeed. BTW: I'd fire all those CEOs from the BIG 3 who came flying in on those private jets too. They're still eating their steaks while their companies go under.

qkearns56,

So you are upset that your brother had a good living eh? Whether or not decisions 20 or 25 yrs ago were bad or good (they werent good), that was 20 or 25 years ago. Unless you are like most of our politicians who seem to have memories that stopped working 25 years ago, you will see that the entire domestic automotive landscape has changed completely.

You should be on your hands and knees thanking the Big3 for taking care of these people the way they have for the past 100 yrs. For all this time, the Big3 pumped massive amounts of money into our economy and have made sure that millions of Americans did not depend on government assistance for retirement and health care.

People keep talking about "i dont want MY taxdollars to go to an ailing dinosaur, blah blah blah, I dont have a brain, I just regurgitate whatever is trendy on the TV".

Hell, as a taxpayer who is paying A LOT of money to our corrupt government, and I definately want these loans to go through, even if its twice or three times are much as the Big3 say they need now. I want the Big3 to be strong, I want the Big3 to be dominant (projecting AMERICAN business across the world) and in turn, the Big3 will generate tons of cash, thus generating tons of tax dollars. This will in-turn make my taxes lower, and will add to the services that the government should fund (roads, schools, military, etc)

The fact that so many Americans are so against our own industry really has me shaken as to how dumb Americans can really be (although lets face it, we did elect George Bush... twice).

If a family member had a problem with drugs, but then got clean and was doing well but lost their job, wouldnt you all help your family member? The same goes for Detroit. They made crappy cars from the 1970s till about 2002ish.. but then they started making great cars. Currently their lineups are awesome and only getting better, but they've fallen on hard times (thank you un-regulated oil & financial markets). We should help our brothers & sisters in the Big3 so that in the not so long term, they will be powerful again and will contribute greatly to our ever weakening country.

WE CANNOT AFFORD TO GIVE AWAY OUR INDUSTRY. I urge you all to call your senators and congressmen, let them know that we cannot loose Detroit. Let them know that we want oil speculation rules to be put BACK in place!

UAW: Your babbling. You talk about drug problems, etc. That has nothing to do with it. Lets point out 2 FACTS. Because of you UAW's unrealistic contract demands in the past, the Big 3 had to pay for those pension requirements & health insurance premiums. The R & D development cost for new products already put the Big 3 behind the 8 ball right out of the gates. (You never talk directly about those cost difference issues of union vs non union shops). The automakers can't adequately compete when the non union shops have this big advantage from the get go. I believe the the CEOs term used on Captial Hill was referred to as "UAW Legacy Cost".

I don't begrudge my brother for making a decent living. However when police officers, school teachers and fire fighters make less money than UAW workers for basically putting screws, nuts and bolts on something is not right. I say who cares about the UAW; let's them go and replace them with non union people. Ronald Regan did it with the air traffic controllers and things turned out fine. That's why we have Chapter 11 so companies can reorganize.

Tell me this UAW1. Should I buy into your theory of bailing YOU out (since you are obviously a former UAW worker), explain to me why you Won't just come back in 6 months or 1 year later asking for another $25 billion (or whatever the amount will be). Share how you're sure the the BIG 3 won't be back with their hand out again. And if they are, are you then going to tell everyone again, "We can't afford to give away our industry" again.

We're not giving anything away. Benz, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, VW/Audi, BMW and more all have successful transplants here. Part of the problem is the Big 3 built "junk" from about 1980 - 2000. No design flare or beauty to their cars like the old muscle cars; no quality; just steel crap. Tell me a true CLASSIC domestic built car from the years 1980 to 2000 that we'd all dream to own. In the 60's & 70's, there were a bunch of COOL muscle cars that I watched zoom down the Woodward Avenue strip in Michigan. I would say, I wish I'd own that 1968 Pontiac GTO Judge; or that 1972 Chevy SS Chevelle. I'm not totally convinced yet that we shouldn't just let them do a Chapter 11. Yes I'd hate for anybody to get laid off, but seems every business wants a part of the bailout package.

I dont think anyone hates America on this site. We don't care for the big 3 due to mismanagement, lack of foresight, and the greed of UAW (union leaders) AND management.
1UAW...you keep talking of "new hires this and new hires that"...what about retirees, or someone that has 10 years under his belt at a GM plant....what kind of compensation are these persons receiving? does it seem a bit out of line???
No one wants to see the masses unemployed either...maybe its the CEOs and union leaders that should be kicked out on their ears

I dont know about that.. it sounds good and all... but riddle me this.. How much would the Big3 have to pay to get a new CEO right now? Surely more than $1.

UAW! Your dementia is coming back....take your Ginko. Here's what you just posted above, "If a family member had a problem with drugs, but then got clean and was doing well but lost their job, wouldnt you all help your family member?". So you think that in your words (again), "the U.S. auto industry has paid the government a thousand times this amount already...".

You and the rest of the UAW members are so full of themselves. You think you did some noble deed by making concessions a couple of years ago. You did crap because the big 3 were in serious trouble and you had to bargin due to your UAW friends ridiculous demands. You're like the rest of those UAW people; never did anything wrong; its all managements fault and etc. You sound like my silly brother who worked at Fords. Nothing was ever the UAW's fault - yeah right. You still hadn't addressed the issue about the "Legacy Cost" all these Big 3 companies still face, and the $3000 per car price difference right off the assemble line. That's because you can't dispute the fact that due to the greed of your UAW kronies, coupled with the poor management of quality and products, now you need all us tax payers to step in and pay your retirement benefits and health insurance. What will we get in return UAW... the other hand held out in 1 year when the Big 3 need "more money"? Oh wait a minute.....I forgot....we owe it to you since the "U.S auto companies have paid the government back a thousand times this amount...". Don't approve the bailout folks; write your Senators to tell them to pass this time...it's your money.

Short-sightness at its dumbest.

GM & Ford were on the brink of Massive profits and really gaining tons of market share a year ago, and then YOUR politicians let oil go crazy and then the financial markets collapsed. What you're implying is that because of things that happened decades ago, we should not prop up our industry.

Hey guess what, we fought a world war against Japan a few decades ago too!! Who cares that they are friendly to us now, lets go kill them!! (Sarcasm)

gkearns56, maybe instead of ranting your anti-UAW crap (and im no supported of the UAW but I dont hate them either) you would read my posts and SERIOUSLY consider the ideas of others. I've read your posts, I take them into thought.

OK UAW1, your views and Neutral's biasness toward the Big 3 are so slanted. You can tell both of you are probably former UAW members. Your silly contract demands in the past have added to many of the problems these Big 3 car companies now face. You or Neutral tell me (as ask previously) what domestic cars builts between 1980 thru 2000 would I just love to own. That's because there aren't any special cars that stand out. You UAW guys built crap. So don't tell us how we should save your UAW buddies. Maybe you should have given more thought about the negative outcome (foreign car companies taking a larger share of the market) when all your UAW fellows were pretending to know how to build cars us Americans wanted.

Hey gkearns56,

Im a first generation American, so blow off. My family has absolutely nothing to do with the auto industry. We pride ourselves on logic, reasoning and security.

And as for cars built between 1980 and 2000, you are correct, there are none that are super spectacular. But then again, what Japanese/Korean cars are there that stand out and say WOW, LOOK AT ME, IM AWESOME.... sure theres the NSX... but lets be reasonable here.

Also, maybe you should run for congress. Apparently you're caught in the same time-warp that they are. You seem to be stuck in 1980. Please tell me you dont have tight black jeans, some ugly shirt and poofy hair too.

neutral:
"...This will in-turn make my taxes lower, and will add to the services that the government should fund (roads, schools, military, etc)

The fact that so many Americans are so against our own industry really has me shaken as to how dumb Americans can really be (although lets face it, we did elect George Bush... twice)."


yes, many americans ARE dumb. not all, but enuff to have allowed bush and cheney to get away with STEALING not just one, but two elections.

i won't argue anymore about this (past) uaw greed and big3 incompetence anymore. both WERE BIG factors, and are still having a hangover effect. i also won't argue about the virtue, or not, of a $25B loan. or even $50b or $100.

i just ask you guys to compare it to the $1,500,000,000,000 we've pumped down the bottomless pit of Dubya's wars! and the stupidity of buying the lies that these wars were "for democracy." nope. it was for guaranteed access to OIL.

so blame puppets Bush and Cheney, and the Big Oilys who not only pulled the strings, but raked in RECORD, BANK BUSTING PROFITS. (oh yeah, halliburton, boeing, and other war profiteers raked it in too.)

'national pride' gets brought up every now and then.

sometimes, (false) pride just has to be SWALLOWED, people need to face up to REALITY, and GET ON WITH LIFE in a sensible manner.

this needs be done with regard to these stupid, $$$ and soul sucking wars. hey, we pulled out of vietnam, and the world didn't fall apart. the russkies pulled out of afghanistan. ditto.

i hope no misguided 'patriots' bitch and moan if Obama sensibly pulls out of afghanistan too. iraq admittedly would be a bit more difficult. we DID break the country, so we gotta at least patch, if not fix it first. we certainly have been PAYING for it.

would that time could be turned back and we had ONLY the non-lethal "car wars" of the 1990s!