Does the Loan To GM & Chyrsler Equate To Death For the UAW?

no matter what, UAW didn't help GM and Ford to grow. It only helped these companies to run in much loss. IMO, no UAW at GM and FORD

As a former UAW guy... I don't give a rats ass what factcheck or anyone else says. Experience tells me most of the auto workers are fine, hard working poeple. The UAW, as an organization foments bias, hatred, jealousy, partisinship... and unless you want to ignore all Jimmy Hoffa types embedded forever in it's management - they are utterly and completely corrupt.

I guess we'll see. These companies have 90 days to tear down legacy issues and provide a short and long term success plan. If the UAW presents a challenge, then yes, I expect the C-levels to eliminate that barrier in sight of the greater good.

not the end of the UAW but just the end of benefits for life for UAW members. the Detroit 3 still have to figure out how to be more efficient and labor is only a part of it.

Ah, the relentless pursuit of Non-Union. Reagan stated us on the Road in the 80s when they broke the Air Trafiic controlers.

The only Unions Left are the State Government Unions and Teacher's Unions. Maybe they are next with the Huge State Deficits and Taxes.

I love how ececutives get to have thier own contracts and pensions, while working people get strong armed into surrendering thier pensions.

So Goes the American Dream, and the standard of Living we can no longer pay for on our rationed pay checks.

I Guess our Grandchildren will just have to live with less and face the music.

and this is why...
Think You can Retire on a 401K? Guess again!

Click and Watch the Frontline Video and Hear what the experts are saying:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/generic.html?s=frol02p79&continuous=1

Do Yourself the favor and change the channel from Fox, CNN and MTV.

for once, i agree with mercuryguy.

he IS right on this.

Well , I am glad that I did not go with the gov's plan to put 25% of your income ( for the few that can afford it , not me ) into a 401K program and watch most of it disappear . Thats was they had that retirement catch up program so you can make up for the years that you did not put much in . What a hoot that was .

Have you ever considered the *possibility* that PBS, NPR, etc, are actually pretty impartial, and that you are actually so right-leaning that an impartial position is liberal from your perspective???

The UAW should've made concessions years ago. The fact that the union was hurting the Big 3 has been known for years, but the union was not working for the good of the company and the union, only the union, which seems like an oxymoron in itself is a major reason why the Big 3 companies are in so much trouble. I know the retirees were guaranteed certain things many years ago, but that agreement is no longer feasible. Even retirees in the military have been forced to give up some of their benefits, if Soldiers have to do what's best for their former organization, the UAW will have to make do. I don't mean to sound harsh, but a company's 1st responsibility is to the survival of the company, no particular entity is more important than the company as a whole.

Nissan/Renault/Infiniti is so profitable and efficient, that it doesn't need to cow-tow to any inane automotive unions. Nothing will stand in the way of production of the ALMIGHTY VQ powerplant.

Shut up already. Seriously.

Looks like only the chosen few are allowed to have a Pension and good pay.

Looks like it is back to the Feudal or Futile System of Surfs toiling in the fields for thier gruel and King and Queens living in Luxury.

So goes the American Dream and the standard of Living that tis country was founded upon.

We should have just stayed back in England.

There are many pension plans across the country that are properly managed. North Carolina for one is at 108%. Only difference between a 401k and a defined pension is that the State Comptroller or whomever is the conservator, manages the investments.

Fact is, State Workers make a lower salary and a higher benefit package vs Private Sector workers whom make a higher salary and lower benefit package.

Ie. I know an Internist that works for the city of Chapel Hill who makes 125k. He moved from a private hospital and took a 100k+ salary cut. Fact is he makes less but gets a better benefits package and work schedule.

Blah blah blah

Yep, I think thats what the French Ruler said along with "Let them Eat Crumbs" before the French Revolution.

You just hate PBS because watching it shows you how little you know.

au contraire!

PBS is for people who actually have brains. commercial tv is for those for whom thinking is "hard work." so what they watch simply anesthesizes their already 1/2 empty skulls.

Completely unrelated comment...

have you seen the new SRX? Pretty sharp looking but unfortunately, GM doesn't have a new DOHC DI V8 (thanks CAFE bullshit)

DI increases fuel economy, while also improving HP. If anything, CAFE makes it *more* likely that they would (funding allowed) come out with a DOHC DI V8, probably also with cylinder deactivation.

they had a DOHC V8 with DI, cylinder deac, cam phashing, etc. It was called UV-8.

It got shelved about a year ago.

gm seem to have a habit of ditcing technically better engines, for CHEAPER substitutes.

olds once had a dohc v6. it got dumped and gm soldiered on with the cheap chevy ohv v6 instead.

way back in the thirties, there was a new ohv v16 for caddilac. it got dumped for a cheaper FLAT HEAD v16.

is it any wonder import fans sneer at gm engineering? or is it beancountering?

sorry for misspellings. its late.

My 2 cents:

UAW has had its ups and downs, but I believe there definately is a case for the UAW, stated below.

1) No more union rules, they are a huge pain in the ass. Grievances and seniority, etc are a hinderance to productivity. You wanna work, then work. You don't then leave. (Sorry 1UAW, my only real beef)

2) The UAW now is the facilitator of UAW healthcare and pensions. This is good, an organization for the workers' pensions and healthcare, paid for initially by the automakers and afterwards by the workers. The UAW can run their own healthcare/pensions without being a burden on the manufacturers.

3) The whole industry needs the UAW (hear me out before you go crazy). The UAW represents a massive voting block. When komrade Waxman or premier Pelosi decide to mandate that all cars are electric or 55mpg or no more V8's.... (the list goes on and on), the UAW and its political voting clout will prevent the extremist environmentalist from destroying the automotive world.

If the extremist environmentalists had their way, we'd all be driving toyota yaris' and honda fits. We'd still have global warming, thered still be massive environmental problems.... but these idiots seem to think the world would be perfect without car people actually want to buy (versus cars these fascists tell you that you want to buy)

Typo:

"perfect without car people actually want to buy "

should be
"perfect without cars people actually want to buy"

BimmerMike46 - "It was Marie Antoinette..."

Thanks for the History Lesson, I should have been more astute.

I now see your point, I have a Public School Education, and I was taught by Fat, Dumb and Overpaid Union Workers in our education system. Many of which didn't feel it was thier job to cover European History.

I see your point though about unions and unfair pay. I stand corrected.

Note that if you choose to be a teacher, you have NO CHOICE but to be a part of the teachers union. And certainly not all teachers are morons. Many of my friends are teachers and I find your blanket comment about all teachers truly offensive.

And teachers are most certainly NOT overpaid. The ones that are good (certainly there are bad ones) put in half again more hours than most people and for half the pay.

In Europe, VW's burdened labour rate equates to US$60 an hour.
I'm sure that's higher than US rates (but not by much).
Yet VW makes a Billion dollars a month profit (which won't drop too much, as sales are only down 8%, however, the high-end sales with big profits will be hit worst ... but that's not relevant to the topic)

So, why are VW & Toyota so profitable while the "used-to-be-big" 3 aren't?
The answer is simple.
Most of VW & Toyota's sales are outside of the US where car prices are higher.
The US has the lowest pricing on the planet for comparably equipped models. You can thank good-old competition and capitalistic markets for that. But part of the blame is execs who were stupid enough to go down the path of competing on price rather than value.

You don't see Benz tanking the price on an e-Class to that of a Cobalt to boost sales! It would boost sales, but kill profits. Instead of putting all the effort on cost-cutting (look how well that worked out) they need to improve the product.
It looks like they started on the right path ... its just too late now.

Killing the UAW isn't the solution, but a temporary drop in wages could help get through the next few years ... maybe.

Another way of looking at the difference between cost-based and value-based selling:

In a cost-based world, GM only sells cars like the Cobalt ... engineered to be cheap to build.

In a value-based world GM only sells cars like the CTS and CTS-V ... engineered to give the customer more than what they want!

Which version of GM would be profitable? Which one could actually pay union rates and still make piles of money?

but you also have to consider pickups. which are relatively cheap to build. AND not at all cheap. (before 'incentives' become the ONLY way to keep selling 'em that is.)

the HUGE PROFITS on p/us and suvs is what started detroit down on the red road.

holmstar: Note that if you choose to be a teacher, you have NO CHOICE but to be a part of the teachers union. And certainly not all teachers are morons.

Note that if you build cars for the big 3 you have no choice but to join the UAW. I have friends that work 10 to 12 Hours per day and weekends in very hot and dangerous factories, risking thier life for a days pay. Some people don't just put chrome trim on a car, they move engine blocks and forge steel with big dangerous equipment. Nor are all blue collar people Morons.

I don't know where you got that I was calling blue collar workers morons, I said nothing even close to that.

Certainly dangerous work deserves a certain pay level, I won't disagree with that, but why can't a robot forge steel, or position large or heavy parts? No risk of human life or injury. (unless you get in the way of the robot, of course) Thus This would reduce workers comp payments as well. But with more robots there would be fewer blue collar jobs... and people need jobs.

So do we hold back on improvements that reduce injuries, errors, etc in order to maintain blue collar jobs, or do we better train out workforce so that they can build, maintain, and monitor out new fancy robot factories?

I meant robotic (as in automated) factories.

the thing is, robots increase productivity.

holmstar - I don't know where you got that I was calling blue collar workers morons, I said nothing even close to that.

I'm not saying you did.

There seems to be a very Viscous perception about union workers and Blue Collar pay Vs. White Collar Pay.

I hear CNBC praising AIG workers, Former Enron Workers, but they want to throw working Americans under the bus, along with the familys they support.

I've seen Union Abuses, I've seen managment abuses.

I've seen Union Abuses in State Government. I've seen payroll abuses and union protectionism in Government sectors as well as the Private sector.

Immunity seems acccaptable for white Collar Non-Union workers and Or a Public Sector Union people.

I never hear CNBC talk about the Labor Cost Component for State Government Workers who have Free Facelifts and breast Augmentation included in thier Health Insurance and provisioned for in thier Union Contract.

No, you only hear CNBC bashing the UAW about Viagra as part of the UAW Health Insurance.

None of the above should be part of any Union contract, UAW or Public Sector.

We never hear about Union Labor inefficiencies for the Public Sector.

Yet, the inner city currently has a 45% High School pass level, and the kids are functionally illiterate at graduation. These kids are unrepaired for the workplace.

American Kids, unprepared to even work at Wal-Mart or McDonalds.