Bonehead Viewpoint Of The Day? Activist Links Toyota And Republicans As Anti American

I agree with most people on this site who say that the big 3 don't deserve the bailout it was due to substandard products that they are in this situation. But the fact still stands that letting them fall would cause a chain reaction of job losses. That is something that the US can't afford to allow in a recession. If the us wasn't in a recession I wouldn't mind as much but we currently have no choice. We are forced to support them or face the consequences. I am glad that they are beginning to turn around and hope they succeed.

1UAW, these Senators did the patriotic thing by trying to prevent giving $14 billion dollars of taxpayer money away to companies who have not altered their business plans and who will burn through this cash in mere months. GM, Chrysler, and Ford all need to radically change their business plan and not make insignificant changes to an already failed plan.

You have to remember, Americans have already voted against Detroit by not buying its products.

Finally, 1UAW, you still don't understand that the unionized auto workers have literally priced themselves out of the labor pool with these absurd pensions and health care plans. It is simple economics. Those jobs lost in Michigan, Ohio, etc. will NEVER return. This is why so many foreign companies have built plants in the non-unionized South. Union workers need to understand they can no longer be ENTITLED to an easy job with lavish benefits.

1UAW, that "free money" you refer was given on a state level to lure industry to the area to create new jobs Which in turn creates more income tax revenue from both the employers and employees. Southern states didn't throw money to bailout failing companies.

I'm not trying to sound condescending, but you really need to learn more about how economics and corporate finance works before making remarks.

Also, if you want to live in a welfare state, maybe you should apply for a job in a Puegot plant in France.

HSCenterconsole,

By your own logic, providing a lifeline to Detroit would stimulate Big3 based economies and help more to the US economy than those subsidieis to japanese/korean transplants.

Also, this "free Money" you speak of going to the transplants... well in detroit's case, its "loan money", which generates jobs and keeps america strong.

Get your ideas strait.

1uaw, you DO need to learn the realities of biz and economics.

transplant imports' costs are not just for payrolls. they also support SUPPLIERS. many being the same suppliers detroit also buy from. you do want THEM to survive, don't you.

they can actually 'spread the wealth around' better, without so much wealth getting snagged and STUCK to support legacy costs.

In response:

Neutral: Please read my comments thoroughly before replying to them. I used the term "free money" in quotations since that was what 1UAW was discussing. The "loan money" you refer to will generate NO new jobs from the Big Three. Rather, it will just help them sustain operations for a couple of more months. The cash burn rates of these companies are astonishing. For example, in Q308 GM burned through $6.9 billion in cash. At this current level of cash burn, GM will be insolvent by the middle of 2009. This $14 billion dollars from the Feds will be gone within months and they will back on the Hill begging for more. Throwing money at failing companies who are not drastically changing their business plan makes no sense. Southern states that gave tax breaks and incentives to foreign manufacturers actually created sustainable jobs.

1UAW: I understand where you are coming from since this is your livelihood. However, you belong to the very union who has helped contribute to the Big Three's current financial crisis. As snobbish as this may sound, you really can't grasp the financial and economic sides of this issues when you most likely only have a high school education and are attaching bumpers to cars on an assembely line. I'm no Ben Bernake (have undergrad business degree, working on getting my MBA part time at night, do some company research for my job), but just looking at the financial statements of F and GM is depressing. Furthermore, all those billions don't all go back to Japan. Much of that money is reinvested in upgrading plants, research and development on new products, marketing, and advertising. And that profit is also invested here as well. Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW or any other foreign manufacturer here aren't the robber barons.

HSCenterconsole,

I know this "freemoney" wasn't your original comment. Either way, quit assuming that these companies are doing nothing with their loan money. You seriously think they're just sitting around with a heap of money throwing it out of windows? Get real already.

Failing companies eh? Please elaborate on your obvious insider's view on the Big3.

And by giving loans, you really think they aren't creating jobs eh? Well you're right.. in the current conditions they are shedding jobs to keep afloat... just like Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, etc etc etc. By not extending a loan, the big3 would have been destroyed, plain and simple.

And as for the profits going to Japan... don't be so blind... sure they re-invest some back in the states, but in the end, they're Japanese/Korean companies. The bulk of their engineering, bean counting, suppliers, etc are back home. They use us like 3rd world labor. Open your eyes.

Be reasonable.

Neutral, just look at the financial statements of F and GM and you will see troubled and failing companies.

For example:

Analyzing the common size income statements reveals a troubling and rising trend for GM in cost of goods sold (CGS). For 2006, 81.4% of net sales were part of CGS. This percentage rose to 92.2% in 2007 and for Q3 2008 the figure had risen even further to 98.7%. Looking back ten years, CGS was 83.1% for 1998. Clearly, the recent increase in CGS is one of the main reasons why GM is in such an enormous financial squeeze. With sales down, high commodity prices, and continued expensive union contracts, GM’s ability to generate a profit on its products no longer exists.

In contrast, Ford’s CGS for 2007 was 86.3%, far better than GM’s 92.2%. F has decreased their CGS by 10% over the previous year (96.3% in 2006). This could be attributed to plant closings and more efficient usage of materials, workers, technology, and inventory management. However, Ford’s historical CGS percentages make it difficult to predict whether this 10% decrease will be a sustainable trend or just the result of one time efficiency. As of Q3 2008, F’s CGS was 83% but Q2 was 106.3%, so 2008’s data is far from conclusive. Examining the past ten years, F’s CGS has fluctuated between 83.0% (in 2004) and 97.9% (in 2001). There is no consistency in these figures and it would hint that management lacks a true plan to sustain a reduced CGS over an extended period.

Out of curiosity, what do you do for a career Neutral?

Engineering.. and for security sake.. I can't say which firm it is I work for, but as a hint, I can say Im very "involved" with the auto industry. Although very "involved", most of my focus is in engineering & future products. Specifically, I do electronics systems --- usually spanning systems operations to quality control (six sigma design, etc). Sorry I have to be so secretive, you never know who is reading these posts.

You make good points, but lots of other points people forget is insane fluctuation in the resources markets (steel prices, etc), vehicle makeup, etc. You know as well as I that its not so cut & dry.

Nice talking to someone who is willing to do research though... boost for your last post.

My point is, the Big3 (and I really cannot comment for privately held Chrysler) have been massively restructuring. They have the products (contrary to popular opinion). They ARE on the right track and they have been for years. They just needed stability in energy & markets until about 2010-2011 to realize all the restructuing, etc.... but we know how everything went. Now they need financing... pure & simple.

Getting back to the main subject:
Toyota - Anti American? Please.. they're a company out to make money.

Republicans - Well, many politicians in general are very anti american, self serving pieces of crap.

The top selling vehicle from Detroit has been the redneck mobile F150 pickup truck! Americans should give up on building cars and stick to what they are good at, weapons.

To those who insist on blaming, these are the congressmen, the congressmen all of you chose to as a representative that voted AGAINST the bailout. Enough blame to go around huh?

http://www.seektress.com/realrep.htm


AK Rep. Donald Young R
AL Rep. Robert Aderholt R
AZ Rep. Jeff Flake R
AZ Rep. Trent Franks R
AZ Rep. Raúl Grijalva D
AZ Rep. Richard Renzi R
CA Rep. Xavier Becerra D
CA Rep. Brian Bilbray R
CA Rep. John Doolittle R
CA Rep. Bob Filner D
CA Rep. Elton Gallegly R
CA Rep. Duncan Hunter R
CA Rep. Darrell Issa R
CA Rep. Kevin McCarthy R
CA Rep. Grace Napolitano D
CA Rep. Devin Nunes R
CA Rep. Dana Rohrabacher R
CA Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard D
CA Rep. Edward Royce R
CA Rep. Loretta Sanchez D
CA Rep. Brad Sherman D
CA Rep. Fortney Stark D
CA Rep. Linda Sánchez D
CO Rep. Douglas Lamborn R
CO Rep. Marilyn Musgrave R
CO Rep. John Salazar D
CO Rep. Mark Udall D
CT Rep. Joseph Courtney D
FL Rep. Gus Michael Bilirakis R
FL Rep. Virginia Brown-Waite R
FL Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart R
FL Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart R
FL Rep. Tom Feeney R
FL Rep. Ric Keller R
FL Rep. Connie Mack IV R
FL Rep. John Mica R
FL Rep. Jeff Miller R
FL Rep. Clifford Stearns R
FL Rep. C. W. Bill Young R
GA Rep. John Barrow D
GA Rep. Paul Broun R
GA Rep. Nathan Deal R
GA Rep. Phil Gingrey R
GA Rep. Henry Johnson Jr. D
GA Rep. Jack Kingston R
GA Rep. John Linder R
GA Rep. Thomas Price R
GA Rep. Lynn Westmoreland R
IA Rep. Steve King R
IA Rep. Thomas Latham R
ID Rep. William Sali R
IL Rep. Jerry Costello D
IL Rep. Timothy Johnson R
IL Rep. Daniel Lipinski D
IL Rep. Donald Manzullo R
IL Rep. Peter Roskam R
IL Rep. John Shimkus R
IN Rep. Dan Burton R
IN Rep. Stephen Buyer R
IN Rep. Baron Hill D
IN Rep. Mike Pence R
IN Rep. Peter Visclosky D
KS Rep. Nancy Boyda D
KS Rep. Jerry Moran R
KS Rep. Todd Tiahrt R
KY Rep. Albert Chandler III D
KY Rep. Geoff Davis R
KY Rep. Edward Whitfield R
LA Rep. Donald Cazayoux Jr. D
LA Rep. William Jefferson D
LA Rep. Stephen Scalise R
MA Rep. William Delahunt D
MA Rep. Stephen Lynch D
MD Rep. Roscoe Bartlett R
ME Rep. Michael Michaud D
MI Rep. John Conyers Jr. D
MI Rep. Thaddeus McCotter R
MI Rep. Candice Miller R
MI Rep. Mike Rogers R
MI Rep. Bart Stupak D
MN Rep. Michele Bachmann R
MN Rep. Collin Peterson D
MN Rep. Timothy Walz D
MO Rep. W. Todd Akin R
MO Rep. William Lacy Clay Jr. D
MO Rep. Samuel Graves R
MO Rep. Kenny Hulshof R
MS Rep. Travis Childers D
MS Rep. Gene Taylor D
MS Rep. Bennie Thompson D
MT Rep. Dennis Rehberg R
NC Rep. George Butterfield Jr. D
NC Rep. Virginia Foxx R
NC Rep. Robert Hayes R
NC Rep. Walter Beaman Jones Jr. R
NC Rep. Patrick McHenry R
NC Rep. Mike McIntyre D
NC Rep. Heath Shuler D
NE Rep. Jeff Fortenberry R
NE Rep. Adrian Smith R
NH Rep. Paul Hodes D
NH Rep. Carol Shea-Porter D
NJ Rep. Scott Garrett R
NJ Rep. Frank LoBion

Oh, the article is full of s@%t.

Thad McCotter.... seriously....?

Im trying to check here, but I think you are off. I have a hard time believing any michigan politicians opposed the auto LOAN.

Ironically enough Toyota is more American than Chrysler, GM and Ford put together.

Not true. Where do most of the money go when you figure profit in state, benefits, and factory location. Toyota still import more vehicles made in Japan to the US. True the domestics have outside factories, but not nearly as many vehicles are imported to the states. Ford 150 made stateside, Saturn, GMC, Cadillac, Chevy trucks and SUV's Ford SUV's are made here, Chevy Malibu, Silverado, Colbalt, etc.

http://www.chicagofed.org/publications/fedletter/cfloctober2007_243.pdf

"Sales of domestic content measure lowers the domestic content for both domestic and foreign carmakers yet the gap in domestic content between Detroit Three and foreign carmakers become much larger. That is because the Detroit Three import only a few models for sale in the US market. Foreign automakers, however, import a much larger share of the vehicles they sell in the US market. According to the sales weighted measure, the domestic content of the entire fleet sold in model year 2006 by the Detroit Three is the US was 75.5% compared with 42.3% for Asian owned carmakers."


Study to show yourself approved.

In addition where are these cars engineered? Where are the production lines designed? Where are the components, robots etc... of those production lines designed and largely built? Where do the profits go? Although I don't think the Unions, Management and past products from the remaining US car companies always do them proud, I do think it would be idiotic ... almost national suicide to loose the last major industrial manufacturing done in the US. Oh and lets examine some of the reason these companies have such overhead for retirement etc... maybe it is because they were huge manufacturers in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc... when these others were almost nothing or just getting started... so they have huge bases of retired employees that are reliant on these companies (remember almost every company up until the mid 90s offered retirement). Health care is a big cost not only for current but retirees as well. When other companies have a large contingent of their companies outside the US (like engineers, back office, bean counters etc...) then they avoid all those costs our US car companies pay for. I really cannot believe the short sighted and ignorant people on this board that think it is best to let em die. I certainly hope you would do some real in depth research on this situation instead of the normal union bashing, us cars suck etc... This is a bigger issue and deserves more than that. The US car companies are making pretty darn good products for the most part now. Agreed they focused on SUVs etc.. a lot but that is what Americans were buying.. in droves, but look at the current line ups, see how they are doing in almost every car comparison test, read current SAE journals, go drive one yourself!

Please,

No on cares to read your well thought out viewpoints on factual information. This is autospies......


Good post, Boost+1 !!

"Where are the components, robots etc... of those production lines designed and largely built?"


without being aware of it, you may have opened up a whole can of worms. which suggest that in truth, toyotas and hondas simply ARE better engineered, with more technical innovations in the background.

check out the u.s. gov't patent office website. enter your favorite car maker. enter 'robots' and see just how many patent numbers come up. and, the names on the patents.

for those not able or willing to go thru all that, suffice it to say that the big T and big H have roughly TWICE as many robot patents than any of the detroit trio. and that's only for robots. many other fields are involved in automotive R&D.

incidentally, this line of inquiry was suggested to me by a detroit loyalist and good forum friend. (he was lamenting how many japanese names were in new patents granted.)

like i said, just maybe, toyotas and hondas simply ARE better engineered, with more technical innovations in the production process if not products themselves.

it was in "production process" and innovation which essentially launched toyota into the bigtime car biz.

they invented the 'just in time' Lean Production system, which made mass production so yesteryear. gm partnered with toyota in the 1980s in the fremont joint venture, in part to learn toyota secrets.

which were NOT so secret, but gm was too dense to use the knowledge for many years, still stuck on the old corporate culture and habits.

ultimately, going thru Chap 11 (and hoping it doesn't devolve to chap 7) may be the best course for gm. it will FORCE restructuring and overhaul of the entrenched corporate culture, as well as mfgr'g process.

one of the MOST TELLING COMMENTS about how uaw folks are grossly overpaid:

in a recent NPR story, a 3rd generation uaw guy was being interviewed. said that of course, everyone tries to get a uaw job after high school. NOT everyone is able to get hired.

for the fortunate new hires, said he, "It was like winning the lottery!"

every other joe blow had to settle for REGULAR JOBS without extortionate wages and benefits, just like the REST of us americans.

Their hourly wage is about what it is at the older Japanese plants in the US (about 28 - 30 per hour). Of course when you add in the "benefits" like paying the zillions of retirees their healthcare and retirement pay of course the hourly "total pay package" goes through the roof. And I can see why it would be so exciting to get one of those jobs... many of those areas have been hit by huge unemployment. Instead of using anecdotal accounts why don't you do some research and find out the truth! I heard on googoo radio that XYZZ got some cake job scratching his ear. Great pay of course for someone who did not even have to go to 1st grade... just like all his brothers! He said it was like finding a zillion dollars and not everyone could get jobs scratching ears....

How about Senator Shelby. He seems to have the mentality of a Southern Plantation Owner.

Get People Down on thier Luck, from the trailer Park to build cars for pennies on the dollar.

Places with lower Tax Burdends for infrastucture, Roads, Bridges, Schools and so on.

Look at the Decline of Detroit, boarded up buildings, homeless people everwhere, no tax revenues left to fund schools or infrastructure.

Detroits last swing of the bat seems to be Gambling Casinos.

I've seen healthier cities in 3rd world countries.

"The profits go home to Stuttgart, Tokyo, Seoul, or wherever, and the children of engineers go to MIT. Children of factory workers might get to got to technical school."


very true. like it or not, this is a GLOBAL ECONOMY today. and look at how americans kids spend their spare time. compare that to asian kids (including indians) who continue to fill and build up their minds, instead of NUMBING them like americans!

look at their comparative performances in math and science from grade school on up.
true, we do have the best universities in the world. but howcum there are so many asian kids there now in the science and technical fields? and what are american kids studying?

not only is the future for american kids bleak if this does not change. but the 'future' of 10-20 years ago is being seen TODAY.

Georgemia, your comments are right on. These other countries are working hard to compete and the governments are assisting (not govt planning like Communists but assisting where it makes sense). To our own demise we rush! To the sound of applause too!!

and it would help a lot if our gov't MERELY assisted with universal health care.

but it seems there's little to no POLITICAL SUPPORT for this, because so many 'mericans have been BRAINWASHED into believing this is 'socialism' with bad, evil communism just around the corner from this simple, sensible step.