Are The Detroit 3 Just Victims Of A Bad Reputation?

A reputation they created.

Quite right. The big 3 for many years made lousy cars. They don't make lousy cars now but they dug a big hole for themselves. It takes a car enthousiast or and educated consumer to realise that the big 3 do make a decent product today.

I will never forget the crap they sold us ( big3) in the 80's and 90's!!

But a question that you have to ask is why people will forgive Hyundai for their cars of the period, which were FAR worse, yet Detroit remains a target of real hostility?

the big 3 had FAR MORE TIME and a far greater VOLUME of product, digging that deep hole.

You forgot to mention overpaid employees and executives that is common knowledge. Plus styling issues on most models, and bad PR. Whereas Toyota is always referred to as the mighty Toyota. The big three has to put up a massive PR campaign to boost its image, but only after it has cleaned up its acts. These acts are the ones we have been discussing on this site for the longest time.

They created that reputation and now they have to try and convince us that they are different.

But you say that they donèt make junk anymore. Have you see Chrysler's lineup. Ford isn't much better either. Only GM has made significant changes.

I'm sorry, but Ford is consistently the best among US manufacturers on measurable quality parameters. Just look at JD Powers or Consumer Reports. Ford is turning out vehicles that rank up with the best from Japan.

When Ford does not use Volvo and Mazda products and say thier cars have improved with American engineering I will acknowledge it. I believe BMW is all on its own.

While the quality of Detroit's cars (not trucks/suvs) may be the equal of anyone's, especially Ford, there is a style issue. The huge investment in SUVs has starved the car lines of fresh, attractive designs, and that counts for a lot.

VW has pretty crummy quality , but they are attractive and fun to drive. Jaguar got along for years with beautiful cars that were usually seen on the hook of a tow truck.

Americans have loved Detroit's SUVs, many of which equal or exceed the designs done in Stuttgart or Hiroshima. I see no reason that the teams that created popular vehicles like the Escalade, Explorer, and Enclave can't make equally desirable sedans. As people notice, they'll go back to the showrooms.

They just have to get the smell of K-mart off.

1UAW : Very interesting.....That´s why I still buying Cadillac..and now they are a lot better..Linconl sadly bite the dust cause they are doing old fashion cars, fall short in design and performance.

I agree with Adamsaf723...

Yes, the American car companies make far better products now compared with a decade or two ago, and many of these new American models outcompete their foreign competitors (e.g. Cadillac CTS), but how do you expect me to respect your company when you still have so many brands that you really shouldn't support?

GM= case-in-point:

GMC Acadia= Chevy Traverse, Saturn Outlook, Buick Enclave
Chevy Equinox= Saturn VUE, Pontiac Torrent
Chevy Trailblazer= GMC Envoy, Saab 9-4x
Chevy Silverado= GMC Sierra
Pontiac Solstice= Chevy Cobalt
Saturn Aura= Chevy Malibu
etc., etc.

How is this good business???

GM formed all those companies long before the US started importing cars. Options support decision-making, a sense of competition when there really wasn't any. It's like the pockets of a pair of trousers fighting over the billfold, who cares as long as it gets into the right pair of trousers. To GM it didn't matter which one you buy, son long as it's one of their brands.

Fast forward to today and now the import car companies have gobbled up GM's market share, and now the market is too diluted for GM to continue carrying the brands and still be profitable. Although I agree they are making much better (if not fantastic) cars now a days they have an image problem they will have a very difficult time overcoming.

For those of us old enough to remember Tylenol was nearly put out of business due to tampering, but they took corrective action and survived. Here's another one for you... Remember the ads on TV for the "ayds diet plan"?

I don't think anyone here who thinks GM should close out a few marketing channels is wrong, but it isn't stupidity that keeps them from closing a division or three.

While everyone screams about the unions, the very politically powerful car dealers have paid states to pass laws that preclude any easy dealer closings. GMs dealers are government protected, and can't be closed. They know they have too may, they know they have too many divisions. They are powerless.

It cost more than 2 billion dollars to close Oldsmobile because of payments that had to be made to dealers to buy out their franchise.

It's only "good business" because the dealers are a political force unto themselves. Franchise laws in every single state preclude GM from rationalizing its' product line, without significant payouts to the weasels known as "dealers."

The are as big a problem as any that Detroit faces, as their sales per dealership are much lower than newer Toyota and Honda dealerships. And there's nothing that they can do about it.

Why can't the big 3 stay with one model for a long time? Why do they keep on bringing out different models every six years?


I know there are some exceptions (F-150,Wrangler,Malibu.etc.)

Exactly. There is no brand loyalty to build on if they keep changing names.

I think Ford will be OK, great cars are finally starting to trickle out from them. GM needs to cut back big time and realize the market will no longer support 4 brands of the same model re-badge. They have good cars but just need to realize we only need one great version of it. Chevy and Caddy is all they need. Chrysler is the worst off of the 3. They have so many other issues that are far beyond money problems. Most of their lineup (besides the Ram) are about 2 generations behind everyone else in every category.

Absolutely.

Their bad reputation stems from arrogance and intelorance more so than the quality of their product.

Perhaps, one week perusing the comment boards on auto blogs will bring them a ton of insight.

I think when it comes to trucks and suv's, there is no one better in the industry than American vehicles, period. But there is a shift in consumer behavior which now favors economy/passenger cars and reject SUVs. This shift blindsided the B

ig 3 and now have to adjust to the market. This will take time but i think once they put their mind/resources into it, they will make vehicles that can compete in today global market.

sorry hit submit too soon

I have owned american cars and trucks ranging in years from '66 to '98. By far, the worst came from the 80's and 90's. I did my patriotic duty. The sales engineers always said quality was never better. None of them made it past 100K miles without an engine replaced, a transmission or multiple failures. In between I owned Hondas, each lasted between 180K miles and 250K miles and I beat the snot out of them in the process.

Have american cars really improved? I'm going to wait about 10 years to see. By then my toyota might need to be replaced and my hyundai warranty will run out.

you are correct that it will take 10 years ON THE ROAD before it can be proven that detroit has truly "caught up." 90-day surveys just don't cut it.

look at any CR Frequency of Repair set of charts. after 5 years, the gap between honda and toyota and the rest of pack opens up again. WIDELY.

it's not the fault of detroit engineers and stylists, but of their Beancounter Culture.

all suppliers are selected solely on the basis of who comes in with the LOWEST BID. so the cars were essentially assemblages of the cheapest parts the companies could get. (other than parts/components built in house.)

hyundai also worked that way in the past. but when the old beancounter top mgmt was swept out, they were replaced by ENGINEERS. who demanded that decent parts were used.

all carmakers have to deal with internal beancounters. but top mgmt has to INSIST on minimum quality standards. and award contracts on THAT basis as well as low bids.

I agree that the beancounters kill the American car market. Look at the cars we treasure today and they come from the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Some are worth close to a million or more and engineers with designers ran the process - not bean counters. The downsizing and rush to front drive cars gave us crap and we bought it. Twenty or so years of crap will dig a deep hole.

The "downsizing and front wheel drive" were mandated by the US government and CAFE standards, and the economic realities of $30 a barrel oil rather than $5 dollars a barrel- plus this nation's refusal to face the economic realities of importing most of its' oil.

The real role for a capitalist, reform-minded approach is not throwing out the baby with the bath water, it's reforming the energy and fuel economy policies that have pushed Detroit into a corner.

We do need reform of labor agreements, dealership franchise laws, trade agreements, energy policy, and everything else. To throw away a strategic asset because you happen to like a Honda Civic or BMW 3 series (which I helped my sister buy, yesterday) is exceptionally short-sighted.

As Detroit shifts from investing in SUVs to small cars, I'm sure they will make excellent, reliable, and once again, desirable products, just as their SUVs are excellent, reliable, and quite desirable, to many, many people.

Driving an import is like wearing an Italian Suit, it is "in style"

Who wants to be seen wearing a suit for a discounter like SYMS.

Quality and Value is meaningless. It is only the Hood Ornament that really counts these days.

they have tried.

much of detroit stuff is simply NOT competitive outside the u.s.

too big for old world streets. too gas guzzling. too expensive in countries that tax by engine size.

Tucker died because it was woefully undercapitalized, even if Mr Tucker was not an outright fraudster. Hollywood, like many Americans, has scorn for industry, and delights in attacking it.

Kaiser, with hundreds of millions more to invest, and real experience in mass production, could not compete with Ford and GM. Kaiser also thought Americans wanted to save gas with six-cylinder engines. That error alone was enough to sink his cars, which were otherwise excellent.

Nash died because it was making small fuel-efficient models, which Americans didn't want, especially in the days of 15 cents a gallon gasoline. There was no conspiracy. American Motors tried to match GM and Ford model for model in the late sixties, and the capital cost bankrupted them, and they would up sold to Renault (like Nissan, years later, and yes, your Infiniti is a ward of the French Government).

Americans have grown up with unprecedented wealth, and seem to think that we have an entitlement to this, and that it will never end.

Wishing for the destruction of a major industry will economically weaken all of us, and putting together kits from Asia will not compensate for the engineering, design, and finance jobs that will flee to Tokyo, Seoul, and Stuttgart.

Even if you live in Southern California and drive a Toyota, failure of this industry will, immediately and over time, have a very negative impact on your standard of living and the military and economic security of this nation.

against the cutbacks and factory shutdowns across america, toyota BUCKED THE TREND and actually sold more american built camrys in 2008 than it did in 2007.

As recently as 2003, Studabaker tried to make a comeback with a SUV.

GM sued them and put them out of business for good.

Studebaker pretty much killed itself. Didn't need any help. Too bad they carried Packard down with the ship.

Well said, LauderdaleDriver.

Americans seem to no longer want to pursuit engineering excelence. We seek to find the lowest bidder, and we no longer want to pay for anything on our diminshed paychecks.

it may have even gotten to the point where americans can NO LONGER achieve engineering excellence in the automotive industry.

our first rate science and engineering graduates get grabbed by our ginormous "Defense" industries. (to build white elephants like the already obsolete but unkillable Star Wars project.)

detroit has to settle for 2nd and 3rd rate engineering graduates. europe, japan, and korea see their 1st rate graduates go into autos and electronics.