Lexus LS600h AWD vs Mercedes C320 CDI 4Matic

Let us face the facts. The Lexus is a pig.

I'm sorry but this test is just an example of full-blown bias and propaganda in German motoring press. Let's explain why.

First, let's start with this sentence:

"We begin with the LS600h, which has a very simple and conventional AWD systems design with certain features that could have been copied from Audi's revolutionary Quattro system: a central torsion distributor and limited slip differential with a bias towards rear power distribution (40f:60r)"

I'm sorry, dear lying German journalists but Lexus never copied anything from Audi. It's because Audi never actually invented the technology that's behind their quattro.

The heart of this system is a TORque-SENsing self-locking center differential which manages to perform differential action between the front and the rear axle and at the same time smoothly shift torque when "sensing" the diminishing summary grip at a certain axle (which becomes gradually devoid of torque) to the remaining one which still has some reserves of grip. That's why it allows to delay the moment of skidding and vastly improves both handling and safety. TORSEN-based all wheel drive systems are the best in the market due to their unique feature of working before the skidding actually occurs.

A brilliant design then. Who invented it? Audi?

No.

An American company called... Torsen. You can read about their history right here: http://torsen.com/history.htm Let me copy-paste it for lazy ones:

1958 Vern Gleasman patents fore runner of Torsen Type 1
1982 Gleason Corporation buys patent rights from Gleasman
1983 Torsen is adopted in the AM General HMMWV (High Mobility Multi-purposed Wheeled Vehicle)
1986 Audi implements Torsen in the quattro
1989 Toyota implements Torsen
Gleason Corporation and Zexel form a joint venture
1991 Mazda implements Torsen
1994 Rover implements Torsen
Zexel Corporation assumes complete ownership of Torsen
1997 Volkswagen implements Torsen
1998 BMW, Lexus, and HUMMER implement Torsen
1999 GM implements Torsen in F-Car Series
Honda implements Torsen in the S2000
Robert Bosch acquires majority share in Zexel Corporation
2001 Ford implements Torsen in the Ranger FX4 series
2002 Toyota implements Torsen in the 4Runner
2003 Bosch sells Torsen division to Toyoda Machine Works, Ltd.
GM implements Torsen in the SSR
2005 GM implements Torsen in the Trailblazer SS
Toyoda Machine Works, Ltd. and Koyo Seiko merge to form JTEKT Corporation.
2006 Toyota implements Torsen in the FJ Cruiser (MY 2007).

So the technology behind quattro neither belongs to Audi nor they invented it. It's just an "off the shelf" design which can be applied by any carmaker who are willing to pay license fees. Saying that Lexus ripped it off from Audi is just a lie. But it sounds good and German motoring press need to fool their readers as hard as they possibly can.

Now, the test shows how badly the big hybrid works in snow. I think than anyone would agree that an Audi A8 quattro would perform bri

[...] would perform brilliantly, right? Why? Because of its quattro all wheel drive which works so well in snow.

But the LS600h has the very same setup. How these two cars compare on dry tarmac?

Edmunds Insideline tested them both and posted slalom results:

Lexus LS 600h L Slalom (mph): 62.6

Handling Comments:
Even in "Sport" suspension mode, the LS is very soft. In fact, it lifted the inside front tire off the ground repeatedly. Understeer is heavy and inevitable. Steering is quite good with predictable accuracy but not much feel. Unlike the skid pad, the LS will oversteer in quick transitions. However even with "Sport" suspension mode, the car rolls a bunch while maintaining its line.

Source: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=120486/pageId=122610


Audi A8 W12 L: Slalom (mph): 61.3

Handling Comments:
Car feels big and heavy, but 12-cylinder engine still makes it easy to get up to 60+ mph entry speed and allows strong acceleration out of the cones. Body roll isn't bad for a large, luxury sedan, but it definitely rolls. Steering is tight and progressive, if a bit light.

Source: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=106174/pageId=64463

So here we are then - the Lexus is less entertaining and softer (as they usually are) than Audi but it manages to pull a decent and higher speed through the cones. Since the car has a very similar AWD setup as the A8, I'm not expecting much differences in snow. And we do know how well A8s perform when it's snowy and icy, don't we?

Saying, as Germans did, that the LS is "unhandlich" in these conditions which means it is "undriveable" is then just a huge steaming pile of bias from what was once a credible journal.

Why?

I don't know. German luxury cars are great (and if we talk about Audis of modern era, I'd even use the word "excellent" or "brilliant") and don't need to fear any Japanese competition.

You're right, but althrough Audi never invented TORSEN, they were first to employ it as a center differential, other carmakers (including HMMWV) were putting it as a rear or front differential, that's probably why they say that Lexus copied Audi AWD system -> Lexus also employed TORSEN as the center differential.

Althrough copy isn't good word becouse Toyota didn't copy but purchased TORSEN design:
[Quote]
Toyoda Machine Works Ltd., in 2003, purchased the worldwide Torsen division from Robert Bosch / Zexel Corporation. Zexel Torsen, Inc. was then renamed Toyoda-Koki Automotive Torsen North America Inc. to reflect this change. The company name change became effective September 1, 2003.
[/Quote]
http://www.torsen.com/

"Audi never invented TORSEN, they were first to employ it as a center differential"

That's true and great kudos go to Audi for doing that. In fact, in the olden days, they released a manual Audi V8 with TORSEN both center and rear diffs! So the car could vary torque split not only between axles but also between rear wheels. A technical jevel, I'd say. This idea returns now in the shape of 2009 Audi S4 with an optional sport rear diff and was available since some time in Mitsu EVO (SAYC), some fast Subarus (TORSEN rear diff) and Acuras (SH-AWD), however the last ones don't have a permanent AWD, only part-time one.

One can often hear some opinions that modern electronic center differentials (open diffs with an actuated clutch pack locking them when needed) are better than TORSEN ones (which are often called old and simple since these are purely mechanical devices) but in my opinion it's not true.

Any electronic diffs can start their job only after skidding occurs (since that's when electronics, using ABS sensors, can detect axles spinning at rates indicating slippage) while TORSENs can start varying torque distribution before this actually happens. So you drive along on tarmac, suddenly the front wheels start to roll over some oily patch and the TORSEN diff "feels" they generate less resistance (since the friction coefficient between them and the road surface drops) and sends more torque to the rear before front wheels start slipping. And that's brilliant.

Obviously TORSENs are far superios to classic open diffs (like Mercedes 4matic setup) which can only split torque at a given ratio, without varying it.

So, in my opinion, every car should have an AWD built like those in Audis larger than A3 and some Toyotas/Lexuses. Few exceptions from this rule might be cars definitely designed as sporty rear-wheel-drive machines which should send torque to the front only in emergency cases, leaving front wheels free from effort of powering the car in order to achieve more precise steering. That's why BMWs, Infinitis, 911s with AWD, Nissan GT-R and some other extreme stuff employ this design. Although one has to mention that the Audi R8 uses highly rear-biased TORSEN diff with the steady state split of torque 15% front and 85% rear and achieves this desired RWD feel. However, there's price to pay, namely in conditions of skidding R8 can send only 30% of the torque to the front. AFAIR GT-R can send 50% and the 911 Turbo even 100% which allows better skid recovery.

And I didn't know Toyota had bought the TORSEN company. Anyway, I just wish more car would feature this great setup.

Currently, selected cars having it as a center diff are:
- all Audis quattro larger than A3/TT, VW Pheaton, previous gen Passat B5/B5.5 4motion
- Lexus LS AWD, GX, LX, Toyota LC, 4Runner AWD
- Alfa Romeos Q4
- Range Rover
- Chevy Trailblazer SS

I think active differentials like for example Mitsubishi's rear AYC with overdrive are better becouse they can actively send 0-100% torque to specific wheel which Torsen can't do. In new Audi S4 at the rear is also installed active differential with overdrive so Audi itself recognized that it's better to have active differential than Torsen at the rear axle.

I don't know. German luxury cars are great (and if we talk about Audis of modern era, I'd even use the word "excellent" or "brilliant") and don't need to fear any Japanese competition.


+1

LEXUS LS600H ?
WHY THEY DON'T COMPARED LEXUS IS 250AW AND Mercedes C320 CDI 4Matic.
I KNOW DON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENT BUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CARS,YOU CAMPARE:
LEXUS LS AND MERCEDES S CLASS (BMW 7)
LEXUS IS AND MERCEDES C CLASS (BMW 5)
LEXUS RX AND MERCEDES M CLASS (BMW 3),ETC.... OR NOT?

Because they're undisguised "Haters" Anything to show they're hate for Lexus, even if it doesn't make sense. Like this!

I mean lexus RX and mercedes M class (bmw X5)
i'm sorry about that.

Mad cuz you bought an over-priced Z buddy? C'mon.

IF YOU ARE A GOOD DRIVER AND DRIVE A TRICLYCLE CAN BE.

Lexus' are just poorly engineered vehicles. I haven't been in one that has impressed me! They are just really good at marketing poorly engineered products.

Lexus' aren't vehicles, they're expensive appliances.

Toyota makes true RWD cars, ur Audi is FWD.

lexus vehicles work every day. the crap german cars are in the shop every other month which is why they dont sell as well as lexus in america. and none of you can afford any of these cars so go back to jerking off in front of your xboxes you clowns.

"the crap german cars are in the shop every other month which is why they dont sell as well as lexus in america."

the ONLY true statement in g37's biased diatribe.

all the toyota/lexus haters constantly make references to the unsurpassed reliability of these vehicles as 'appliance-like.'

can anyone tell me JUST WHY this is a fault? i 'spose those constantly parroting this, prefer having to take their toasters and fridges in to be REPAIRED EVERY MONTH?

yes, that makes for a FAR more exciting living experinece (replete with constant cuss words!!!) than simply enjoying the appliance-like reliability of japanese products.

superior reliability which EVEN GERMAN magazines admit to.

Seriously. If you keep posting ridiculous comments like this, people will soon realize that you own a PT Cruiser....Turbo. And ring it out at every light trying to prove something.

And we know the system in the s-class is just as awesome as the c-class...just read this..

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=109772/subsubtypeId=219

Nice job Audi, go Quattro.

they probably should have included the tires that were used in the test.

and i also thought more weight was a good thing in snow...?

Lexus LS600h: Pirelli Sottozero 245/45 R 19 V

Mercedes C320 CDI 4Matic: Continental Winter Contact 225/45R 17 H

Audi A4 3.2 FSI Quattro: Dunlop Winter Sport 225/50 R 17 H

BMW X3 3.0d: Dunlop Winter Sport 235/55 R 17 H

Fiat Panda 4 x 4 Cross 1.3 JTD: Continental Winter Contact 175/65 R 15 T

Jeep Wrangler 2.8 CRD: Continental Cross Winter 245/75 R 16 Q

Land Rover Freelander TD4: Continental 4 x 4 Contact 215/75 R 16 H

Subaru Impreza 2.0R: Continental Winter Contact 205/50 R 17 H

excellent, generally overlooked point.

the lexus is handicapped (along with jeep) with the WIDEST tires. in snow, skinnier tires have an advantage, 'cutting thru' more easily.

This is Auto Motor und Sport magazine so reasult of the comparison couldn't be different. I often read this magazine and German cars win there almost all comparison test.

I thought they killed off the LS460h because nobody would buy it!

"Another first from Lexus: the LS460h is the world's first car with a V-8 that offers 6-cylinder performance, yet gulps fuel like a V-10!"

Way to go Lexus. That car is a total embarrassment and should never have seen the light of day!

"copied from Audi's revolutionary Quattro system"

Some Japanese companies make much better and more advanced AWD systems than Audi's Quattro. Subaru, Acura, Mitsubishi...etc. This shitty magazine is nonstop praising Germans and putting down Japanese.

JUGNU

apparently a terrible copy though...

"Nevertheless the immense weight of the LS600h means it handles poorly on snow and its AWD system is useless in helping it out."

Wow..german bias to the fullest.

Wow,

this is defenitly the most stupid comparision that i've ever seen. I know people here in Switzerland who have S classe 4WD and try to use as less as possible in winter. By the way for members on this site who doesn't know well the Auto Moto und Sport magazine, this is the second most raciste auto magazine in germany after the Autobild. Never a non german car will win in thsese 2 magazine and wee all here know it. They have such a bad reputation here in Switzerland that it's among the less sold Auto magazines here.

Who cares about Switzerland?

??????????????????????????

it wasn't a comparison test. it was simply a test of 4 makers 4-wheel drive systems. and some of them really sucked.

meant 8 makers..

racist? what are you talking about?

so you think the losers in this comparison have great 4-wheel drive systems that really help in winter driving?

I think anyone with a half a brain would be able to tell that the LS600h is going to perform extremely poorly in a winter environment. First off the heavy weight is at fault, second, I can imagine the electric motor, which operates at low speed, is dumping an unregulated amount of torque to all four wheels, which, together with the "annoying ESP" make handling on snow extremely difficult.

Someone with more technical knowledge of these things should please correct me if I am wrong.


I am not surprised to see the Subaru, Audi and Mercedes at the top. These cars are relatively light and have excellent AWD systems. 4th to 6th place is occupied by heavier "light SUVs", which in this case sort of makes sense. The Lexus this far down is honestly not surprising.

Fiat Panda? I don't even know what that car looks like!

blah blah blah...

Yeah, a better car until the Q45's dashboard falls off...you know, those famous quality issues.

Chuck,

What's up with the talk about a Q? it's obsolete.

If you want a real Nissan sports car go by the 370Z or the GT-R, not the G37.

If you want a real luxury car go by a Mercedes, not a Nissan Cima.

ChuckG37,

I finally get it. You talk/type to hear/see yourself type/talk...or better yet exist. A loser always manages to win at showing he's a loser....LAME Everything you attempt to say has no backing or factual information to assist it.....i.e, I like Chocolate Cake. Sit down!

chuckg37 infiniti is a joke when it compares to lexus. well thats because it doesnt compare to to lexus. its trying to be a bmw competitor but cant do luxury very well. I am on my second lexus and infiniti doesnt have ANY products you could consider to be luxurious. and you I am sure like most of the losers on this site dont own, cant afford, and have never driven a lexus. so shut up about things you dont know about, namely, luxury cars.

But at the same time they still manage to outsell Infiniti.

Compete how? I'd say they're doing well, seeing as where they stood in the early 90's.

As a lexus fan I can honestly say that performance-wise I'd prefer a BMW or Audi, but my likes of a brand isn't going to fuel a "bashing" to the next. It's almost as if Lexus knocked on your door and slapped a family member...it looks personal.

Oh yeah, moronic fans=sales; which is all that matter at the end of the day.

Listen up all you Toy/Lex haters out there. You can bash Mr Toyoda all you want to because while you're throwing darts, the elusive target is increasing his strategy and securing the profits. This will never change: 1) He who is top seller wins 2) He who controls market share wins 3) He who is maker of the Lexus brand will bring forth the fierce LF-A and reveal continue world dominance...Period. Loyal Toy/Lex customers and defectors are ever incresing in numbers because, most people out there will buy a Toy/Lex after the test drive. This is why they are top brand seller: High quality and superb drivability.

Yay subaru!

Dumb comparison of a mis-matched class of vehicles.

it's NOT a comparison test. it was a test of 8 automakers' 4-wheel drive systems and how effective they were. some, apparently, are useless.

if they REALLY wanted to just test 4wd/awd systems, they would've had toyota represented by the UNBEATABLE land cruiser/LX570, or a 4Runner.

they must've intentionally chosen the ls600h ONLY because 1) its gross weight makes it a less than stellar performer, and 2) they wanted to show up the Lexus brand, which has STOLEN thousands of customers from the vastly OVERRATED german trio.

how about a test comparison of the LandCruiser and/or 4Runner vs. ANYTHING the europeans have competing in this class?

Okay Lexus and Toyota bashers. They sell because they are nice cars with little or no ownership brain damage.

Having sold Mercedes Sprinters for the last 5 years, I would not buy anything that company made car or truck. The first version of the van was in production almost 10 years and still had reliablity issues and lousy parts supply.

Mercedes has not built a car since the 126 body S Class, the 124 body E Class, and the 201 190e that was built prior to the C Class.

Mercedes's answer to Lexus's assault in 1989 was to take out the over engineering from their cars. Mercedes cars of the new millenium have rust, electrical and reliablity issues. Plus, many of the dealers are factory owned and act like they are doing you a favour by working on your car.

Supposedly the new versions of the S and C Classes are showing return to the core values of old but I will wait and see.

In the meantime, I know even the lowest priced Toyota is over engineered. Just likes Mercs of old.

downtoearth

Good information. Thanks. Hope now more people would know about this joke German magazine. Their bias is so transparent for everyone to see.

LS is a great car, no matter what this shit maagzine says and btw can't wait to see new 2009 Lexus LS460 AWD compared to it's rivals.

JUGNU

Funny to see how people choose not to re-evaluate their feelings when it aligns with anything that comes from Chucky.

I like cars period and I understand why people buy different cars. Interestingly, it only has been within the last few years that there has been a Lexus brand in Japan. The LS was sold in Japan as the Toyota Celsior.

Some of the comments above refer to brand prestige. Most people that stroke a cheque for this type of car new have money. They have money because they have saved it, invested it wisely, worked hard for it etc. They did not get money by being stupid, can recognize a good value, and could not care less about brand prestige. This is why the LS400 sold so well. It raised the bar for MBZ and BMW. Both were slow to react while they looked down their noses saying the Lexus did not have brand prestige or heritage. Meanwhile they lost market share. The car would have sold branded as a Toyota Celsior I am sure.

The same thing is happening now with the Hyundai Genesis, which is fun to watch.

"Germany lives and dies by the auto industry so having the entire country pull out all the stops to save them isn't a surprise."

Sort of like the controlling of the Yen so that Japanese cars are cheaper in the US?

German mags tend to be biased towards German cars and Japanese Mags tend to be biased towards Japanese cars...big surprise! I wonder what the comaprison outcome would be in Japan? hmmm...?

Honda needs to hurry up and make a bigger RL so that people can see the best AWD product on the market in a true luxury test

This article is junk - handling comparison between a yacht and a jetski.

Hey Kthor (or ObesePig whatever you're going by these days) If your colon is still killing you turn around and see if you have a BMW service writer sticking out of your ass... If you do this is the first indication your full maint program has expired.

This comparo was a waste of my time. They're not even in the same class. I'm just sayin.

Another completely useless comparison. Different types of cars, different weight categories, different price range, different buyers, the list goes on. Why even bother to publish this or do car publications come to believe that all consumers are stupid?