Hybrid Sales Falling Like A Rock, Will Resale Soon Follow?

Firstly, I have a hard time believing my eyes!!
How can this be true!!-- afterall, we've been told through bobbleheads in the media & congress that everyone wants hybrids!!!! Looks like the vocal minority of idiot tree-huggers got too much media attention. Good news is that congress won't raise fuel taxes enough to make people want to buy higher mileage vehicles, so automakers are going to have to accept MASSIVE losses on these cars just to satisfy CAFE rules. GM alone has spent multiple billions (if not tens of billions) on the 2-mode pictured above... and they are going to have to accept a $10,000 loss per truck just to satisfy over-regulation.

Thank you, stupid liberals & short-sighted, un-educated public.

It all boils down to cost. People say they want to save the planet by going green. But if they have to part with too much money to do so, then they simply won't.

If you note as soon as the tax credits really started to fall off, gas price started to rise. Now one would tend to think that Prius sales would really skyrocket, however dealers commanded more for them since they had production issues limiting the supply at the same time.

The end result was you could buy other vehicles and save more money overall than the Prius would save due to the inflated prices. So people simply shopped other avenues.

yeah lets keep sending 700 billion dollars to middle east every years and billions more to Russian for oil because the "vocal minority tree huggers" are idiots. Yeah and only idiots care about pollution. Have you been to Mexico city? Lots of smart people living there breathing that toxic smog i guess.

God, dumb people like you just amaze me. Good thing though: no matter how hard you try you will be the vocal minority soon enough. You old stupid people with your love for this 19th century energy will die soon.

ps. price of oil will be back up to $100 a barrel in two years

DinamoR,

Firstly, you need to read my previous comments all over this site. I am all about efficient motoring however not via the retarded methods you and your kind insist upon.

Secondly, I am a YOUNG engineer who deals with automotive matters on a daily basis. All of my statements are made out of practicality.

Third.. had you gotten off your "lets force automakers to make things" rant... you'd see that forcing automakers to make certain products is ridiculous. We all saw this summer when oil spiked that people bought efficient cars. So what do we do as a nation????? We force automakers to foot the bill for stupid people like you who think that they are responsible for massive swings in prices of fuel. Here's an idea, START TAXING GASOLINE.

You militant tree-huggers have no experience in REAL industries. You live in a fantasy world usually because you have it easy (most people like you have a daddy with a big check book) and you sit on your high-seats and point down to everyone else. Stupidity such as yours will certainly bring the downfall of many automakers and cause massive panic in the economy. This means that the government would HAVE to step in and re-wrtie the stupid laws you dream up, and restart the auto industry... costing untold hundreds of billions of dollars. When all that is needed a damn gas tax.

LOL you wanna see a retard? Look in a mirror.

I have to say that you're like a pastiche of what this site used to be--constant Lexus bashing. You say the exact same things that everybody else has said in the past. Except now it's coming from an Infiniti fanboy instead of a BMW fanboy.

I drive a 600H and I am curious exactly what is so "awful" about it? It is an amazing car in my opinion, but I would be happy to hear just what you think is awful? Power awful? No.. Luxury accoutrouments awful? No.. Levinson sound system? No... Comfort? etc etc etc. Ok so we average 22 mpg combined. Not as good as a G37 which probably averages 23, but hey- it's not bad either for a huge car with 438 horsepower. Just my opinion of course. BTW, the executive seating is far from awful. If you're ever in Marin, LMK and I'll be glad to show you.

Hybrids are the way of the future, especially after battery technology improves more. Compare some of the numbers against diesel models, example; BMW X5 35d at 19 mpg city vs Lexus RX 450h at 29 mpg city. No contest.

David999, do you ever get tired of spewing half-truths? 30 seconds of internet research is all it takes to punch holes in your arguments.

While you cite city mpg, you fail to cite highway mpg for the X5 and RX. From their official websites:

Highway MPG
X5 35d: 26mpg
400h: 24mpg

If you bothered to read my post, I was referencing the RX 450H, not the 400h. Just for your info, the 450h is rated at 28 mpg highway.

David999, doesn't it feel good to acknowledge the full story? Life is so much better when the Toyota blinders come off.

What are you talking about HS? You are the one who misrepresented the facts.

I've never seen a HUGE Infiniti fan brag so much about BMW's than this ChuckG37 character. He's like the unpopular Infiniti kid in class who tries way too hard to befriend all the BMW kids. Dude, be yourself.. There is a reason why Infiniti is never really in the midst of any discussion on majority of these auto forums.

Don't forget that your precious Nissan uses a Toyota Synergy Drive Hybrid system in the Altima.

david999 is absolutely right. The BMW X5 xDrive35d EPA is 19/25 MPG (city/highway), 2010 Lexus RX450h is 24/27 MPG. No contest, the super duper diesel got crushed. And the hybrid pollutes massively less in densely populated areas. If you realize it takes more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel than a gallon of petrol, the outlook for the BMW looks even worse.

Not to mention the X5's monstrous 400+ lb ft of torque. It will leave the RXh owners wondering what the hell just hit them. It's nearly as quick as the 4.8i but delivers significantly better mileage than the 3.0si.

CharlesG37,

You're a complete joke on this forum. I'm not sure how you consider yourself being more objective when all you do is bash Toyota and praise every other brand going against it, especially BMW. Just because the G has improved handling and added horse power doesn't make it superior to anything. Infiniti is crap just like all the Nissan's.

Wow, CharlesNissanG37 tells me what would it be if the X5/X6 were diesel hybrids? Well, what would it be if I were Warren Buffet? It's not tricky to realize hybrids and diesels carry a price premium over petrol engines. A diesel hybrid would carry this premium x2. S4cabriofoxone talks about some X5 35d torque (without realizing torque at wheels only matters, not at the crank) and RXh owners left wondering what the hell just hit them. Well, X5 35d has quoted 0-60 = 6.9 sec. The OLD RX400h AWD has 0-60 of 7.3 sec. The new, more powerful RX450h will be faster. Where are those Lexus owners left wondering? I can't see them. Hallo? Did I mention the 2010 RX450h is much more economical and drinks cheaper, less energy-dense fuel?

Guys like Chuck maxima3.7 and the other Lexus haters have no idea what motivates RX hybrid buyers. They really do not care about zero to sixty or the quarter mile. They don't care about the skid pad or how fast it went around some obscure race track in Germany. They could care less how it stacks up against the Cayenne, and most if not all have enough money to buy whatever they want. Hybrid sales are off because gas is cheap and most Americans are too foolish to play the movie forward. The problem dealers will have when it bounces back is there are very few banks that will advance more than invoice or low book, which means if you are stupid enough to buy a gas guzzler right now, you'll own it with both hands when gas goes back up.

After the 79 oil crisis, in the 80s people were dumping 4 cylinder econoboxes because they didn't hold up. The motors were overworked and had half the lifespan of a V8 because the cars were underpowered and you had to rev the piss out of the motor to get any horsepower acceleration.

When all the Eelctrical problems start occuring, people will be repowering these cars back to conventional motors if possible like the Junk GM diesels of the 80s were repowered to conventional motors.

It is the Automatic Transmission that must go. They have too much slip compared to Manual and Autos require high maintenance with Fluid and filter changes. It is a messy job to drain and refill ATF and it polutes the environment with waste products.

Most decent modern automatics have a lock-up torque converter that locks up in any gear above first, effectively yielding no slip at speeds above about 5 MPH. In regards to the fluid argument, most automatics made within the past 5 years are "fill-for-life" designs that never require maintenance or fluid changes...ever.

My first thought. You're my favorite new member. Congrats, lol.

the average person is pretty f-ing S-T-U-P-I-D. that is very clear to everyone with half a brain after the past 8 years

You are right. Gas prices won't stay this low for long. Then those morons who bought the big trucks for such low prices will be cryin again.

i wasn't a "tree hugger" until very recently but now i clearly see that those are the people who will shape the future, and people like the guy who made the first comment in this thread will go the way of dinosaurs very very soon- just a generation or two from now.

and honestly, people like that are some of the biggest idiots on this planet. not tree huggers. that's why they will die out in the next 50 years and tree huggers will win out. evolution baby! the smartest survive.

Oh by the way, im an ultra-environmentalist.. but a pragmatic one. I'll make sure never to throw away anything recyclable, economize my driving, etc. I have a small car with a small 4cyl engine. I seal my home in winter, turn the heat down when Im not home for extended periods of time, etc. But what I don't do is try to force some whacky idea I have upon the country that is infeasible scientifically. Sure we're moving to an electric-based auto world (unless renewable petroleum jumps into the ring), but the change is going to be gradual. Unreasonable people like your kind just are too thick headed to understand this.

For the record, my next car will most likely be a Chevy Cruze. I'd like to get a volt but it will be too unavailable and expensive.

Im going to laugh at idiots like DinamoR when their under-researched and under-tested electric cars run out of juice and they have to wait 16 hours to charge it. Im going to laugh at these same idiots when they don't have food because farmers can't have trucks b/c some liberal douchebag requires trucks get 28mpg. Im going to laugh when the contruction industry gets annihlated because idiots like DinamoR think that fuel economy is a matter of "flipping a switch". Stupid moron.

I'm all about "mr.Fusion" from Back to the Future! LOL!

Hybrids are a stop gap between Gas propulsion and zero gas propulsion. They are a step in the right direction and I applaud Toyota for making them afforable with the Prius. The Prius is successful because it is a Hybrid only vehicle and not a hybrid option like many other makes. To compete Auto comps need to also produce a Hybrid only class. GM's Volt is a great attempt and is a Mild hybrid with Electricity as main propulsion method.

What amazes me is the very short memory the buying public has with the current lower cost of gas. What this shows is that people prefer larger vehicles but are forced to buy small due to rising gas prices. Hard to have both and large hybrid are poor sellers due to additional costs.

If you can see that, then you might need to get your eyes checked.

50mpg? You must be smoking something real good. That will put most auto companies out of business.

Nothing like the efficient and technological government of our telling manufacturers what they can sell.

Plain stupidity. People whine about Big3 viability.... here's an idea. No new CAFE... in fact, repeal the 2007 legislation. No CO2 emissions regulations. Tax gasoline so the price is $3 a gallon when oil is $50/barrel and WHAMMO---- people WANT efficient cars instead of automakers loosing their hats on giving people hybrids and crap like that to satisfy some treehugger.

People do not understand the concept of purchasing a hybrid. They buy one to be in the neighborhood hybrid club and then replace it with in 3 years with a new one. Wasnt the point to owning these things were to save money in the long run using them for around 10years from using little amounts of gas?

veyron1001,

For once i agree with you. You are absolutely correct, hybrids (especially the Prius) is a fashion/status statement more than anything else. This is sad, since investing in efficient technology is something everyone should be doing religiously (for everyday needs). Instead, we are going to force automakers to go under making up for lawmakers' fear of taxing gasoline in an effort to get people thinking efficiency.

Good find 009!

If you bought a Hybrid, you just threw alot of money away. Instead of it taking 5-7 years to recoup your money, it'll take 8-10. Big Oil always wins boys and girls.

Don't forget that going Green means paying more Green. And when unemployment is on the march, people are looking for the cheapest transportation they can find. This will surely cut the legs off the resale of hybrids in addition to the low oil prices.

BSBB is right. Boost to that!!

50mpg- as if the government isnt already bothering the industry enough....smokefreak2003 I have to assume you have little to no experience with science/engineering and the business world that goes along with it. I hear north korea is looking for a few good commies... you can get in from China and see all the wonders of leaving communism for capitalism. idiot

The only reason going green costs more is because we have a screwed up non-free market economic system. our system is horrible at determining the true cost of things to set prices.

for example: organic food costs more than food grown with toxic pesticides. in reality, toxic pesticides destroy fertile soil, that means future generations won't be able to make money from it growing food. it pollutes ground water (heck, in kansas every farm has a well but noone drinks from them anymore. everyone knows they are toxic) and gives us food full of chemicals that cause everything from allergies to birth defects like autism.

organic food does not destroy soil (meaning gives us future profits) and does not make people sick, lowering health care costs and increasing quality of life.

so, in a real free market system that calculates the true cost of things organic food should be cheaper.

same with electric cars: pentagon spends billions a year protecting oil shipping routes. oil companies get to pollute for free like crazy. and CO2 emissions are bad for our health.

Glandly, I can tell you that in the future the whole world will move to Green Energy, Green Transportation, Green Buildings and a Green Economy. It is the only way of the future. Old people with their old way of life that has no future will die in the next couple generations. Young progressives will take over and everyone will be a "tree hugger" 50 years from now. 100% guaranteed no way around it in a world with 10 billion people.

you breathe out CO2. Plant more trees if you are so worried. If you really knew what you were talking about (which you don't), you'd understand that its other gasses besides CO2 which are MUCH more harmful Greenhouse Gasses, namely CH4. Something that wouldn't be too expensive to implement and is easy to implement due to its inherent nature would be to cap waste treatment plants and collect the methane produced. Then feed the methane into a generators, burning it and creating CO2. Yes, it'd create CO2, but pure methane is something like 56 times the GHG potency as CO2. So, in effect, you actually REMOVE GHG effects from the environment. But I shouldn't tell you this, it has nothing to do with screwing automakers over so you don't care.

and ofcourse hybrid sales are falling. have you seen whats happening in the credit market? you think everyone who wants a hybrid has a perfect credit score of like 720?

310,724 Hybrids is pretty good number. Much higher than the amount of diesels sold. But still it isn't saving the earth considering that even 2008's weak car market had about 13 million cars sold. 2.4% market share.

By manufacturer, the year's hybrid tallies broke down this way:


Ford Motor Co., 19,522 sales, down 22.2 percent for the year;
General Motors Corp., 9,475 sales versus none in 2007;
Honda Motor Co., 31,495 sales, down 12.5 percent for the year;
Nissan Motor, 8,827 sales, up 5.2 percent;
Toyota Motor Corp., 241,405 sales, down 12.8 percent.

"For all of 2008, hybrid sales tumbled 10.3 percent with 310,724 models sold. While nothing to boast about, the hybrid segment bested the overall market's performance of an 18.2 percent drop for the year"

Not too shabby.

They only experienced bigger drops in the last 2 months when gas prices reached (temporary) lows. And in the midst of a recession, that only makes sense. You hybrid haters can be happy for a couple months. Once gas prices begin to rise again, hybrid sales will increase.

Besides, as David has pointed out, the next wave of hybrids is going to blow people's minds. 28/27 mpg for the RX450h, with 295 hp. Sign me up. The ML320 Bluetec gets 18/24, and is already slower than the outgoing RX400h (w 268 hp). Better performance and better fuel efficiency. Yep, hybrids will be back, stronger than ever.

Bring on the Gen III Prius!!!

Word. All this will change in 2 years. Price of gas will be back up and plug in hybrids like Fisker Karma will be on sale. Fisker: 408 horses, 959 ft-lb of torque with ZERO gas consumption if you drive less than 50 miles a day. If more, probably around 80 mpg on average for a large, luxurious, fast, sexy full size luxury sport sedan. No diesel will come even close. I think we are on the verge of a new age in transportation and energy. Very very close. A generation from now people will laugh at the idea of buying a gasoline/diesel car.

Real world numbers show the RX400h at an average of


24MPG


That's very good!

Ccheck it out here

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList2&make=Lexus&model=RX%20400h%204WD

Oooh and wait the ML320CDI gets 25.4MPG average!

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList2&make=Mercedes-Benz&model=ML320%20CDI%204matic

If you really want to green you should be riding a bicycle. Yes, I'm serious.

Mostly because if you read my posts, they make economic, engineering and logical sense. In AMERICA, government isnt supposed to tell manufacturers of consumer good what to produce, especially when those products may destroy the industries. Safety, non-GHG emissions, etc are a different story. Hell, even a baseline fuel economy standard is a good thing (prevents super cheap, inefficient cars from stealing market share). Its when people want to force automakers to produce things that are non-feasible, thats when I and most logical people get pissed.

For the record, I get deboosted left and right. I dont care that some high school kid or some know it all yuppie gets mad.

Well,

Firstly, most of those 50mpg+ vehicles are diesel microcars. There is an Opel Corsa mild-hybrid diesel out there that gets in the 60-70mpg range (US miles per gallon, not imperial gallons). The really isn't any whiz-bang technology out there except for the fact that these ultra high mileage cars are very small and lightweight. Now, the reason Europe has adopted small cars of the past 60 yrs since WWII is simple, Europe is very crowded and fuel is heavily taxed. From a size standpoint, having an escalade in Athens, GR or Palermo, IT would be ridiculous since these cities were designed thousands of years before automobiles. Like I've said before, I'm all about high mileage vehicles, but forcing automakers to build these cars is stupid when people don't want to buy them. Lets say there is a 50mpg standard.... GM can produce tons of Chevy Cruzes and Chevy Volts. Thing is, if gas is consistently $1-2 dollars a gallon, people are going to want Escalades and Yukons. Then GM has to sell its small cars at a MASSIVE discount (which translates into massive losses) to satisfy some arbitrary fuel economy number that makes eco-terrorists happy. Thats not good business, to let some whack job with a social agenda destroy our strategic heavy industry b/c it make them feel all warm and fuzzy. If fuel was taxed in a phased manner (over the course of multiple years) so that at $40/barrel of oil, gasoline was $3 a gallon, then the consumers would shift their demands to smaller, more efficient vehicles. In the end, its called BUSINESS. People the whole country over act as if the automakers are these bad guys who are trying to destroy the environment. They never forced anyone to buy anything and they are trying to make money with the cars the people want. Its not their fault that as a nation, our politicians are such chickens that they are afraid of taxing gasoline. CAFE should be something reasonable, even I agree that something has to exists but it shouldn't dictate that automakers HAVE to make small dinky cars that people dont want. 20mpg trucks, 30mpg cars. No CO2 regs, no new diesel regs (hell we should hold onto the 2007 regs until 2015 or something).

Also, if someone wants a "portenteous" SUV, who are you to say they shouldn't have it? This is America, since when is it OK to say that people should/shouldnt have certain things? And for the record, the full size SUV market is very small. Pickup trucks are a big market, but at the same time, pickups GET WORK DONE. So please weigh all the factors. By the way, Im a cheapo who won't buy a big SUV because they are expensive to buy, expensive to insure and expensive to feed. Also, I hate the idea of sending excess money overseas just for my everyday driving, however I find no fault with people who need trucks or for few of us out there who just simply want an SUV. If gas is cheap......... the average person doesn't care that demand will go right back up.. and the cycle continues.

Thank you BSBB, its nice to know I'm not alone on this site.

Yes it is possible to get high mileage with small vehicles like that, however the EPA isn't going to rate them that high. Honda Civics, Corollas, Cobalts, and Focuses routinely beat their EPA stickers. I also think the I20 is a cool car, but I don't know if I'd be getting one over the Cruze.

too complicated a tax regime, just tax gas to something reasonable so that people who need trucks/SUVs/minivans can afford gas, but everday people think twice about what they are driving.

Of course they use less gas dummy, they sell it in litre's over there. A litre is a whole lot less than a gallon, or didn't you study metrics in highschool? And as far as emitting less CO2, it goes hand in hand with the litre thing. Besides, we Americans are so far up the ass of big business, we view the world as one giant colon. Only in America. Denny Crane!

You bastards who love your fossil fuels and downplay hybrids have never traveled to developing countries. People there are driving more and more each day. They will need more and more cars. Their vehicles pollute the air and water. Their pollutants get carried halfway across the globe. Our children get asthma and cancer from breathing that shit. Imagine if there were more hybrids or electric vehicles in those countries??? Driving gas guzzlers like there is no tomorrow is unsustainable. OPEC and the Saudis are playing games with the market. Americans are the Saudi's oil addict bitches. When the hits got too expensive, we turned away and turned towards hybrids. They saw that and said, I want my bitch back so they lowered oil prices to the point where I'm paying less than I did 5 years ago. After they kill demand for the hybrid and electric vehicles, they'll stick it to us again and you fossil fuel gas guzzling loving bastards will go broke and ask the government for a bailout!!!

First off, you are correct about the devolping world and their pollution generation. Quite frankly, we can be as clean as we want but all of our efforts could be in vain without international agreements. Second, the Saudis/OPEC didnt "lower" the price of oil. Speculators were the reason it shot up, and speculators were the reason it spiked down. Stop pointing fingers at the Big3, point your finger at yourself and your neighbors. The American people wanted these vehicles, and Detroit, as well as Japan, Germany & Korea supplied them. Get your blinders off.

Neutral - I'm with you on the pointing fingers. It's not entirely the BIG 3's fault. When I said...

"...you fossil fuel gas guzzling loving bastards will go broke and ask the government for a bailout!!!"

[BASTARDS] as in us AMERICANS who love to drive gas hogs and rack up credit card debt.

Well, there were 3 of us kids in my family too, but we found chrysler minivans were awesome for families, especially hockey playing families. Also, I love trucks/SUVs, its just I don't see myself getting a big truck or SUV. I love the Escalade, but realistically speaking I could never own one unless I was rich or something. At that point I'd get the escalade hybrid... reports are that people have achieved up to 26-27mpg. Anyways... like I said "if I were rich"....... Also, don't give up on the US public. Sure trucks sales are up again, but thats b/c companies/contractors/etc have been putting off truck buying and now they cant put it off any longer. You talk to any logical person in this country and they automaticallly think about MPG when shopping for a new car. Even if it isnt the foremost thing in their mind... take the Caddy STS for example. The 6-cyl is VASTLY outselling the 8-cyl. People are starting to realize that a 300hp DI 6-cyl is enough. Examples like this are the gradual shift from inefficiency that is needed. As for you and I, you are correct with regards to smaller cars, however I'm going to be upset with paying anything over $2/gallon for gas (but Ill be much less upset if that money went into OUR coffers instead of Saudi pockets).

The only chance you have of catching Denny Crane in a Durango would be the city in Colorado on a ski lift or hunting trip. And Denny Crane complain about gas? Never, it's un-american! There are two thing you will never hear Denny Crane complain about... Gas and Ammo! Lock n Load, Denny Crane!

We are our own worst enemy. We have no collective memory. We ignore a decade of warnings about coming fuel scarcity, over-react when $4 gas finally happens, and then go back to our previous bad behavior as soon as the flood waters reside. An individual is smart, but people are just plain stupid.

I don't understand why a normal American would run to a dealership to purchase a car that only gets a few MPG better than the one he owns. Do the math. At 4 better MPG on 4.00 a gallon gas( say from 30 to 34) it takes 500,000 miles to pay off a $10,000.00 loan. That's crazy!!!