Costly Mistake? Obama To Allow States To Set Emissions And Fuel Economy Standards

he's a dunce

Obama just delivered one of the USA's largest car markets to Toyota and Honda on a silver platter. None of the domestic manufacturers will be able to meaningfully compete with Toyota or Honda for California sales in the next 3 to 5 years (if not longer). Considering how close GM and Chrysler are to falling into the abyss, this is a risky move. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama uses this decision to justify an even larger "assistance plan" for the US automakers in the near term.

YAAAWN....This fuel standards debate is decades old and boring. If you are not living with your head up your ass you would have learned from the events of the past year that we have to do this for everyones good, including detroits.

1. The more localized management and rule-setting, the more accurate and suitable decisions can be made - a very fundamental law of libertarianism. Good job, Mr Obama. Centralized decision-making was the heart of communism. ||| 2. Thanks to STRICT Californian (and other 10 states) emission laws, Volkswagen/BMW/Mercedes/Audi were forced to install NOx traps/AdBlue catalysts in their diesels which resulted in these cars spewing less cancerous agents. So it might result in less lung cancer deaths (main cancer killer, 5-year observed survival of less than 5%). In Europe manufacturers are not forced to do so and they ignore it, exposing our healths to a larger risk.

Oh great, and at the times of a crap economy, you will strain the money out of many automakers till the time of their death.

My scenario is that California will make it so difficult to sell a car in the state that all you will have is PEV and scooters being sold in 5 years.

Basically you better get ready to walk a lot.

THANK GOD I don't live in California.

In the perspective of car-buying that is...

This is a huge mistake. Letting 50 individual states set different emissions and fuel standards is absurd and the consumer will end up paying these higher costs. Also, the Dems keep saying they want to help Detroit. This will only make matters worse for the Big Three.

Mike-

Boy, somebody is a sore loser. Your criticisms are not only unfounded, but inconceivably idiotic and immature. I'm probably just wasting my time responding, but...

"imagine the confusion when you have a work or for whatever move"

Think. Manufactures simply need to create cars that fall within the toughest states laws and they can sell everywhere. It's not all that tough, guys...

They need to make cars so that they meet the most strngent state.... and thats easy huh.??!?! You've obviously never designed/engineered/built a car before. You are the one with no idea here pal. When you can pack $30,000 of technology into a car that is the size of an Aveo, and charge $15,000 for it (b/c no one wants it) then we can talk. Until then, i'll just sit in my office where I do mundane things like... oh I don't know, advance propulsion systems for alternative energy vehicles..... and scratch my head wondering how we're going to live through this mess.

This is hilarious. I cannot believe you actually don't get this. Here ya go, just for you, I'll lay it out nice and simple: If all cars are produced to meet the standards of the toughest state in the country, there would be no problems with cars being from a certain state. If Florida had the toughest standards, manufactures would simply produce cars that meet those standards. I really can't explain in a simpler way. The advantage to this, besides encouraging a more localized approach to emissions reduction, would be that it would also allow voters to have a more intimate relationship with the standards that effect them. And neutral, they have been following emission restrictions for YEARS. You think toughening them up will lead to the end of car industry? "You've obviously never designed/engineered/built a car before." And I'm suppose to believe someone like you, some who can barely build a coherent paragraph, let alone argument, has any idea what he's talking about. Please, find another forum to spew your ignorant drivel. Oh, and "advance propulsion systems for alternative energy vehicles" is not a verb.

Pres. Obama looks like a good person to look up to, but I think with these stringent rules, I think him and his motley crew of liberals and deomcrats should stay away from deciding how they should set emissions and manage fuel economy.


Though as our first African-American president, I hope many young African-American youths can start making a bright future for themselves and start making a worthy life for themselves to reach to the ranking that Obama has achieved.

shut the hell up. Obama rules. freaking FINALLY we have a president with a brain who will start getting things done. About damn time. If Detroit does not like it they can freaking suck on a fat one. Ford is fine with this because they will start making plug in hybrids, electric cars etc very soon. If GM and Chrysler are not they have no business selling cars. Let Tesla and Fisker take over.

Tesla & Fisker takeover HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

whatever you say b**tch. if the big 3 go bankrupt because they are still making a bunch of Suburbans around 2015 I say we give our support and money to companies like Tesla and Fisker. They understand what kind of technology the 21st century calls for. morons like you are still living in the 1950's HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I never said Obama is doing poorly in his job. Thats more opinionated than a fact. Hes only been in office for...a week. I'm not making a further judgement on him yet. And for plug-in hybrids, electric cars etc...its gonna take a lot more than "its greener" to convince me to buy an electric/plugin vehicle.

noone is trying to convice you to buy one. you'll freaking crawl on your knees a decade from now to buy an electric car, and then you'll even say thank you sir can i have some more. lmao

Blah blah blah, who knows whats going to happen in the next decade? It hasn't even happen yet. And if gas breaks bank, I'll take Metro DC public transportation BEFORE any vehicle electric/plugin/hybrid.

your over usage of profanity shows your age/maturity/intelligence, all low numbers (teen/4thgrader/IQ=70, respectively).

"your over usage of profanity shows your age/maturity/intelligence, all low numbers (teen/4thgrader/IQ=70, respectively)." Uh, and insults are better, how? neutral-"liberal moron," "detroit idiots," "idiot politicians," "ingorant morons," "Moron. You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about." You really are versed in the ways of intelligent debate, aren't you neutral.

Why does everyone think this is bad? First off the economy's of each state is different and the cost of enforcement is not placed on the feds, but on each individual state and it's lawmakers. Each state determines how their federal money for infrastructure improvements is spent. They set their own speed limits and they already set their own laws for power plant emissions which is generally above fed standards. This just seems like a natural extension of certain powers that the states should control and already do. If one goes really low, then all states follow weather they want to or not. We all benefit in the end.

"We all the benefit in the end." No we don't. As consumers, we will pay more since differing standards will drive up costs across the board. Haven't you ever heard of "economies of scale?"

Absolutely ridiculous. This is just another way for idiot politicians to pass the buck onto the automakers. Instead of being responsible and TAXING gasoline so that people actually wanted more efficient vehicles, here comes the liberal moron train attacking their arch-nemesis, the auto industry. Since its the auto industry's fault that people want SUVs, and trucks and sports cars. Yea, go eco-terrorists, you've effectively screwed the industry, from Detroit to Tokyo to Stuttgart to Seoul, everyone is screwed. This just means that California will dictate fuel economy for the whole country, which means people who need trucks for work, families who need larger vehicles like minivans, and people who just want to be individuals and NOT drive sissy Priuse will get screwed.

Way to go Obama, here we all thought you were going to make intelligent decisions based on weighing all the facts. Looks like you are just paying the eco-whackjobs for their votes. Goodbye Corvette/SL/6series/Ferarri/Lambo/Mustang/Escalade/everyOtherCarPeopleActuallyWant. Sad to see you go, a bunch of stoners with interpretive dance degrees from UCLA just destroyed the industry. Here Europe gets unified with a single standard, and America goes backwards with multiple standards (although everyone will be forced to adopt California's standards). Typical liberals, force others to do as they want because it makes them feel good inside. Yay for 50hp BMW M3's with Prius powertrains!!

because they're a bunch of oil humping losers who will cry about detroit begging for bailouts again when the world hits peak oil in 2015 and price of gas goes to $8 a gallon. Obama is doing the right thing by making those detroit idiots build cars that they'll be able to sell once we hit peak oil.

Making industry build things b/c the politicians want it.... yeap... talk about a recipe for disaster.

its not a recipe for disaster. it will work out great. helluva lot better than what is going on right now. 100% guaranteed.

Yea, those detroit idiots who are making cars that are equal to or surpass their asian counterparts in terms of quality, fuel economy, utility, etc in almost every segment they compete in. Typical blind moron, sadly its people like you that are going to be making life hell for everyone who has a real job for the forseeable future.

"Since its the auto industry's fault that people want SUVs, and trucks and sports cars."

I'm guessing you've never studied consumer habits and behaviors, because several theories claim just that. If the Big 3 had never built 2 ton SUV's, consumers would have never had a chance to get hooked on them. The Big 3 has put themselves into this situation, they should pull themselves out.

sorry 3 ton (and up) SUV's

STOP BLAMING THE CAR COMPANIES, PEOPLE BUY WHAT THEY WANT! Let me guess, if some study said that the moon was white because of racism you'd probably believe that too. Stop with the supply side dictating sale bullshit. Tell me, if GM built a 3 ton car that was the shape of a flamingo covered in red dots, would people buy them? Here's an answer, NO. Quit pointing the finger, typical liberal. People need to take responsibility for their own actions for once. Is it Nike's fault that kids in inner-city shoot eachother over Air Jordans?

Of course people buy what they want, but in the case of SUVs, the automaker WERE at fault for not keeping a diverse product line that is profitable throughout, and not just on the big ticket models. THAT is why they are failing. They bet their business models on selling large expensive and not very efficient cars. That was CERTAINLY their fault.

Both of you must be very out of touch with reality. Automakers are just going to make little crap cars across the board. Once again, California screws everything up for everyone. As if the industry didn't have it bad enough, the morons we call democrats have just signed the death warrants of the industry. Case & point: compare the Prius to the Insight. Both are essentially the same cars, and to acheive the mileage they do, they have the same proportions, aerodynamics and sissy powertrains. Goodbye auto industry, the ignorant, non-technically educated, industry hating liberals have destroyed you.

california is the #1 state. leader of this country. you neocon hits screw up everything. We should give alaska and the south to you so you can elect Palin your president and try to build a country on tax cuts and deregulation. It would be hilarious. We would have two poor Mexicos to our south. lmao.

I can't believe how shortsighted and biased some people are. Since when is have INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES a mistake? I guess Bush was in office too long and everybody got complacent when it comes to ceding your rights to a Federal Authority! If you don't like the legislation in your states, then vote in people with ideas you support...or MOVE. If he federalized the standards it would be "too much government control and Big Brother bs. If he gives the power to the states then "he is going to hurt the Big 3". State's Rights are the best way to go.

I think this is the step in the right direction. Let the state decide how stringent to make emissions standards so that more progressive states like California can continue to fight pollution. Personally, I'm tired of breathing in crap air in California (and I live in the Bay, LA is 10 times worse). In California more people die from diseases directly caused for pollution than from smoking. High performance and low/no emissions can go hand in hand (thanks Telsa, Fisker, etc.), so it is time that car companies evolve instead of producing the same inefficient crap that will be giving us flipper babies in a few generations. For those that don't want to be considerate towards your neighbors and the environment... it's okay you can move to one of the sparsely populated states where it pollution isn't that big of a deal.

You obviously aren't too sure about what you are talking about. By letting California dictate the CO2 regs, they will be effectively dictating the whole country's regulations as they have done with non GHG emissions. You say you are worried about pollution from cars? Give me a break, you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Something like 99% of tailpipe emissions are only CO2 & H2O, (absolutely harmless unlike NOx, CO, PM) so quit acting like pollution is hurting you. This is just a myth pushed out there by the environmentalists to get idiots to go along with their nazism.

Give us flipper babies eh? So EV's are the way to go eh? Thats right, b/c the majority of Air "pollution" comes from power plants. So what do you suggest, more demand for electricity. And let me guess, we can use renewables to generate electricity (which is great & all) but who's footing the bill? Oh yea, the taxpayers. Since most environmentalists don't have real jobs (or just low paying BS jobs), they don't pay much in the way of taxes. Typical....... Hey here's an idea for generating all that "super clean" electricity, more Nuke plants... yea... since you have all the answers.....

""""By letting California dictate the CO2 regs, they will be effectively dictating the whole country's regulations"""""

exactly. that's the whole point. that's why we love it so much:-) And when gas hits $8 a gallon after 2015 when the world hits peak oil, you detroit and everyone else will thank obama.

2015 eh, When there will be about 2 car companies left on the earth with 4 models we all will be thanking obama. So will the contractors who will have to pay $40,000 per truck, so will the families who have to pay $45,000 for a minivan, so will the poor who will have to pay $25,000 for a Chevy Aveo. Once again, tax fuel in a systematic and fair manner. This is a recipe for disaster. Big Government messing things up....

neutral- You really think stricter emissions regulations will put the auto industry out-of-business? Despite the fact that emissions standards have been dropping since the automobiles conception, as have safety standards, and it still seems to be surviving? 'Neutral' really isn't an apt name for you.

henBmw, Ive addressed the name issue before, I chose the name years ago before I realized that you have to take a position otherwise the illogical and un-educated on this earth will always win. Printing emissions on stickers means nothing, CO2 DIRECTLY translates to fuel economy. So when California says 50g CO2/Km, we can all be happy that all we can drive (by law) will be miniscooters.

I LOVE OBAMA! He's alreayd done more good in one week than Bush did in 8 years. Detroit needs to f***ing SHUT IT and start making fuel efficient cars. Or they'll be back begging for bailouts again when we hit peak oil sometime before 2015 and price of gas skyrockets making the $4 a gallon gas of last summer look like a bargain.

Moron. You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. You try being a farmer and replace your Chevy1500 with a prius... see how much work you get done. Detroit!?!?! yea b/c Toyota doesn't make the Sequoia/Tundra/RX/LX/GS/LS/Highlander, Nissan doesn't make the Armada/Titan/G37/M45/QX56/Pathfinder, BMW doesnt make the 7/6/X5/Mseries, etc etc etc.

You are pathetic. Bush was right NOT to do this, talk about communism. Dictating to industry what they must build for no other reason than some politician wants it, not becuase its viable or the consumer wants it. Great, Lenin/Stalin/Chruschev/Mao are LAUGHING in their graves.

haha suck on it and like it neutral. You can seriously kiss my ass. Obama 2012

communism? bush was right? hahaha we now have to spend billions bailing those LOSERS out because they make a bunch of gas guzzling suvs who noone wants to buy once gas hits $4 a gallon. These rules will take effect by 2016, gas could be $8 a gallon by then. This is for their own good so we don't have to bail out their stupid asses again 7 years from now. Bush is a f****ing retarded monkey.

Typical uber liberal, get use logical arguments, just get their bullshitters in office to force eveyrone to conform to their stupidity.

Oh yea b/c everyone is out in droves buying priuses right now

More Good ? -- I'd like to know how you measure bad? In the first week the stock market dropped like a stone, unemployment rates soared, some terrorists were hit with a drive by missle attack in Pakistan (without a TRIAL - Where was the TRIAL!!!) We have a tax cheat as the new Secty of Treasury. Banks are going out of business right and left, foreclosures continue to rise...

Oh yeah! Things are going just great.

uber liberal? compared to you uber neocons who want to turn this country into a freaking religious dictatorship?? oh yeah we uber liberals are trying to save detroit from itself by making sure people want to buy their cars a decade from now. how horrible! do you even know what Liberalism means? It is the philosophy the free world and USA was founded on.

I know Obama gave money to abrotion right gourps! great! better family planning in mexico so we have less drug dealing gang banging parent-less teenagers fighting the drug war at our border

DinamoR, tell me how obama is going to be president in 4 yrs when Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin & Illinois vote against him? Once people are driving shit cans b/c that communist Pelosi wants it, and no one has jobs b/c this new regulations have effectively driven the auto market to 8million cars/yr.... we'll see how long Obama lasts. Im seriously thinking my vote for him was a mistake....

It's funny. You guys keep saying how bad the last week has been with Obama as president and somehow try and claim it has something to do with him. If you didn't notice, the last several months have been some of the worst the nations history, and your criticizing Obama for DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT? For changing regulations? Baffling. And neutral, please don't use a term (communism) you so clearly have no understanding for. Allowing States (rather than the fed) make their own regulations is very far from communistic.

They are communists, they want to plan our economy, just like USSR. It's OK though, it worked so well for the Soviet Union that it'll be fine for us too!! Let's see here, since this will force the automakers into guaranteed bankrupcty (across the globe), the government will be forced to foot the bill for all this horseshit. People whine and complain about "the Big3 need to show viability, waa waaa waa". Well here's a thought... no one will be viable when this bullshit passes. Instead of logically TAXING GASOLINE, which every logical analysts, executive, and consumer wants, we are going to force (like a bunch of communists) the auto industry to make cars that no one wants. Everyone forgets that you can pass all the anti-gasoline measures on the earth, until a viable alternative is found (which it hasn't, don't kid yourselves with the EV, its still years off) then we are stuck with good old gasoline. These new proposed regs effectively make it impossible to make money on cars. Where do you people think Toyota is making all of its money, the freaking Prius?!?!?? Try the Lexus RX/LX or the Tundra or Sequoia. If you don't call forcing automakers, who by their nature are meant to be only moderately regulated (safety, emissions-nonGHG, noise, etc), communist economics, what do you call it?

The one failing principle of communism or socialism is that in the end, you always run out of other peoples money to spend. That's why it does not and has not worked throughout history.

Sailor, "Getting by just fine" is not what this country was founded on, all men created equal, the pursuit of liberty yudda, yudda, yudda. In some way, shape, or form, a socialist society has oppression, maybe for you a subdued form, but opression none the less. And I know what you are going to say next, we are oppressed too, and you're right, only because we've elected politicians with socialistic tendancies.

You seem to forget about all of the personal rights that were lost during the bush administration. "Oh, but it was needed to keep us safe." Baloney! Have fun with your false sense of security, I'd rather have my personal privacy and freedoms, thank you very much.

1) In essence they are pushing to let California set more stringent standards which other states will tack on to and eventually it becomes a national standard and an EPA standard, so it really isn't 50 states each setting their own standard (though it may read that way) - That is just want the automakers want you to believe so they can whine about costs and lack of economies of scale.

2) Expensive to whom? We already own the automakers via our last bailout, so basically tax payer money already part of the massive bailouts given to the automakers is going into environmentally sound R&D projects (which by they way will mean someone has to be paid to create these new systems, manufacture them etc., i.e. JOBS!)

3) When automakers complain about how this will make cars more expensive to make, they are complaining about having to innovate rather than pay out exec bonuses...guess what, lead or get out of the way.

dz121,

You've obviously had nothing to do with building a car before, so quit bitch-whining about "owning the auto comapnies", you don't own squat. If thats the case, then fine. Instead of loans, from now on, the Federal government can cover the hundreds of billions in losses the Big3 are going to incur as a result of this BS. Japan's gov can cover their companies and the EU can pay for their companies. Yay for socialism!!! Since it worked so well for Russia / Ukraine / Moldova / Belarus / Latvia / Lithuania / Estonia / Georgia / Armenia / Azerbaijan / Kazakhstan / Kyrgizstan / Uzbekistan / Tajikistan / Turkmenistan / Hungary / Poland / Romania / China / Vietnam / Checkslovakia. WHAT ARE WE ALLOWING TO HAPPEN HERE!?!??

It's odd that the "let the government solve all of your problems" President is saying, "gosh, you people should make these decisions at the state level." I just wish he would apply the same logic to healthcare & taxes. But then again, it wasn't logic that drove this decision - he needs to make nice with the California village idiot - Nancy Pelosi.

It seems the state of California will stop at nothing to kill off every revenue stream it has at its disposal. By the time Arnie and the legislature are done, the only two things the state will have left to tax are Hollywood and the porn industry. Unless of course they add the beaver to the endangered species list, killing off the porn industry.

arnie is a republican idiot who couldn't run a car wash let alone a state. cali needs to get someone like Obama in there who knows how to run a 21st century society. these right wing losers like Bush who still think it is 1950 make me giggle.

Makes you giggle eh... grown men don't giggle, sissy.

I'm all for effiency...but increasing tax on gas is a much better indirect approach to get into the right direction. Raise taxes on gas now while gas price is still low.

It's the right thing to do for our economy. btw, I drive a V8 so you'd know... but, we have to go in this direction.

Stop with your logic!!! Your comment makes sense so it is not appreciated here on this site or in our government.... (sarcaasm)

EEK! ;)

you know all right wingers would completely blow their collective gasket if anyone even mentioned even thinking about mentioning to maybe think about raising some taxes sometime

DinamoR, Have to give you credit here. Every discussion i ever read/hear about raising fuel taxes has a bunch of ingorant morons ardently against raising fuel taxes (the same people who whine about having a balanced budget but want to cut revenue streams while increasing spending).

California is going in the right direction, but I still think we need a blanket federal standard...why make things that much more difficult for the carmakers by forcing them to make different models for different states? If California's new standards are going to equal aroudn 42 MPG by 2020, then just force the whole country to be that new standard.

But, I have a feeling Obama's allowing California to do this so he doesn't have to go through Congress/Senate to get this 42 MPG standard adopted...

They aren't forcing the auto companies to make different models for different states. My car for instance is physically exactly the same in all 50 states. The California models simply have different firmware installed in the ECU. You need to move to California? just stop by the dealer and have them flash the ECU. Done. There are no significant reasons why all cars could not be made this way by 2016. Automakers have plenty of time to prepare, and it certainly is better for all of us... I was rather disappointed this morning when I heard that the *entire state of Wisconsin* has a air-pollution advisory today, and Wisconsin isn't even a heavily populated area. We need to do something about pollution.

AAA - Agricultural Adjustment Act, 1933
CAA- Civilian Aeronautics Authority (now Federal Aviation Administration), 1933
CCC - Civilian Conservation Corps, 1933
CCC - Commodity Credit Corporation, 1933
CWA - Civil Works Administration, 1933
EBA - Emergency Banking Act, 1933
FAP - Federal Art Project, part of WPA, 1935
FCA - Farm Credit Administration, 1933
FCC - Federal Communications Commission, 1934
FDIC - Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, 1933
FERA - Federal Emergency Relief Administration, 1933
FHA - Federal Housing Administration, 1934
FMP - Federal Music Project, part of WPA 1935
FSA - Farm Security Administration, 1935
FTP - Federal Theatre Project, part of WPA 1935
FWP - Federal Writers' Project, part of WPA 1935
HOLC - Home Owners Loan Corporation, 1933
NIRA - National Industrial Recovery Act, 1933
NLRB - National Labor Relations Board, 1934
NRA - National Recovery Administration, 1933
NYA - National Youth Administration, part of WPA 1935
PRRA - Puerto Rico Reconstruction Administration, 1933
PWA - Public Works Administration, 1933
RA - Resettlement Administration, 1935
REA - Rural Electrification Administration (now Rural Utilities Service), 1935
RFC - Reconstruction Finance Corporation (originally a Hoover agency), 1932
SEC - Securities and Exchange Commission, 1934
SSB - Social Security Board (now Social Security Administration), 1935
TVA - Tennessee Valley Authority, 1933
USHA - United States Housing Authority, 1937
WPA - Works Progress Administration, 1935
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_agencies"...........................................................................................
The sad reality of all these governmnet agencies is they produce nothing but red tape. This country needs to be more productive, not subserviant to another govenrment agency. The country needs to have one national standard based on a uniform set of criteria. Otherwise there is no way a manufacturer can assemble cars for 50 different states and keep the production costs down. Perhaps we should just sell California back to the mexicans, it really would solve a lot of our problems. Preferably before Arnie goes to Congress for a bail out. And to DinamoR, it is a well documented fact that Arnie is a RINO.

what are you talking about? why would they assemble cars for 50 different states? they'll make every car according to the strictest regulations. Those 13 states that signed this thing make up 50% of americas auto market. Detroit better make every car according to California standards or they can close shop and go home

If you notice in the above post, most of these federal agencies were formed after FDR took office, or more appropriately, coincide perfectly to "The New Deal". Obama fancy's himself the second coming of Abraham Lincoln and FDR, is this what we have to look forward to, Bigger govt?

If you just admit they will make cars based on the highest strictest standard, then why not just have one federal standard?

I hope so. FDR built america. Before FDR america was a developing country with an economy that was going back to the stone age. After FDR America was the #1 superpower and the #1 economic power in the world until this day. I hope Obama is the next FDR.

You really should consider changing your name to DynoObamaMoron. Dude, it is a widely accepted fact that it was WWII that pulled this country out of the depression, and "Operation Paperclip" that catapulted the US to world Domination. Other than being the sitting president, FDR had little to do with either, he was merely along for the ride.

And FYI DynoObamaMoron, FDR is the primary reason the 22nd amendment was ratified 2 years after his death.

right right. FDR is a democrat so of course as always when good things happen under a democrat its not because of him.

WW2? WW2 was just a reason FDR could spend money and build this country up without losers like you complaining about it. He built the infrastructure, created millions of manufacturing jobs, etc etc. Herbert Hoover, just like loser republicans of today though, would have cut spending and tried to balance the budget precisely at the time when government had to spend to build the country and put people to work. Hell yeah FDR had a lot to do with it. And unlike the loser republicans, he actually WON A WAR

I will concede one issue to you, Hoover was about as intelligent as you are. Before you continue on about FDR and look more like the moron you are, I suggest you read this book by Jim Powell, it's called "FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression.".....In the book Powell reveals how all of FDR's programs are based upon the fatally flawed premises of Keynesian economics, including the following:
* That government spending is always good for the economy, even if it is engaging in pointless ventures such as building pyramids.
* War is good for the economy.
* Gold (as a standard of currency) is a "barbarous relic" that prevents economic growth.
* A capitalist economy will inevitably slow to a halt without periodic bolsters from centralized planning.
* Consumption (i.e., the destruction of wealth) not production, drives the economy. Thus, government should redistribute wealth from those who would invest it to those who would spend it. I caution you though, this is not a picture book and the pages do not "pop out at you", it is good reading though.

As my posts are often flamed for being wordy, I thought I would break this into two posts. This is the second. The economic results of FDR's programs were devastating. For example, consider the Agricultural Adjustment Administration (AAA). The price and production controls of the AAA led to perverse practices such as millions of tons of domestic oat and corn being burned while the U.S. simultaneously imported oat and corn, millions of peaches being left to rot and millions of "excess" pigs being needlessly slaughtered while lard was being imported from overseas. The extent of economic regulation under the FDR Administration reached such absurd levels, there was even a government board organized solely to control the production and pricing of milk!*******This book will also detail the oppressive controls on income and wages under the FDR administration. Under FDR, scores of private sector jobs were eliminated through minimum wage laws, personal income taxes hit 91% for certain brackets and it was a stated part of FDR's platform that nobody should have an annual income in excess of $25,000.

I find it bizarre that so many right wingers are pushing for centralized government when it comes to this particular issue, when in all other cases they want decentralized government. I would think that this would be a welcome change. You should also know that almost all of Bush's cabinet disagreed with Bush on his choice to prevent states from having the power to set their own standards.

This is what a revolution looks like people! We get stuff done FAST! nomore sitting around in the white house picking his nose waiting for a crises to force detroit to change because their backs are against the wall. F*** that! This will ensure detroit survives in the 21st century.

yes, detroit will be thrilled to be making cars that no one wants when gas is cheap. yes, EXPENSIVE cars that will have to be sold at a huge loss just to make the eco-morons happy. Tell me, why are the foreign manufacturers fighting this too? All this BS when we could do the logical thing and tax gasoline... its OK though, now that the government has signaled that they are going to dictate what cars people drive, then the government will be footing the bill for the massive losses. Oh, what was that DinamoR --- Tesla taking over?? OH yea, they want federal money too. Instead of letting science & technology take its course in a logical manner, we are going to force untested, un-forseen technology to the forefront of the retail market, spelling out DISASTER. Tell me DinamoR, have you been to the nickel mines in Canada where current hybrid batteries are produced? Im sure that you are aware of the nasty pollution created from lithium ion battery / solar panel production... naaaa who am I kidding. If it doesn't hurt the auto industry, you're not interested.

whatever you say confused little kid. Government has already been dictating what cars we should drive. Bush gave huge incentives for gas guzzling SUV buyers, billions a year to protect oil shipping lines, billins more a year in tax cuts and giveaways to oil companies, and of course they killed the electric car back in 2002-2003.

You're full of shit. Henry Ford Jr. is friends with Obama and he's in on this thing. Ford is about to start making plug in hybrdis and electric cars in a couple years that people WILL buy even when gas is cheap, though in a couple years oil will likely be back up to around $100. But of course dumb hicks like you don't have the brain power to think ahead to when gas will not be cheap anymore. I also support the gas tax, but this is fine. As long as we get it done, i don't care how its done.

Yes, b/c Ford Jr is really with Obama on this.... he isn't just playing politics. 1) You are full of shit, you have no real ideas of how to fix america's energy problems except to cause mass panic. 2) No one would buy an expensive hybrid/EV when gas is cheap and there no need to (I dont need to prove this, its happening right now). 3) I'm the dumb hick? Thats funny, my dark eyes, black hair, pronounced nose and overall quick wit would not agree with your asenine remark. 4) I don't have the brainpower? WHich field of engineering are you in? You have some gall mister, I spend everyday on the recieving end of your peoples' ridiculous laws and now the entire country is on the ropes because of it, and you're all ok with it. Tell the California farmers hi when you see them in the unemployment lines b/c they cant afford $50,000 work trucks just b/c some treehugger wants to feel good about himself.

hehe the middle eastern energy dictatorship is coming to an end starting TODAY. You, The Bush administration, Saudi Arabia, CEO of Exxon can kiss my ass right in the middle! I'm gonna love every minute of this......And its not like these rules will take effect tmrw and these electric cars will come out tmrw. At least 2-3 years by which time economy will start to rebound and gas prices will skyrocket. Dumb hicks like you never learn from their mistakes!!! Hehe go by a Hummer H2 if you hate these rules. Please!.....And why would Henry Ford Jr. play politics? He has a business to run. He is with Obama on this, he cares about a green future and energy independence. Not everyone is an ignorant f*** like you.

Read this, Im wasting my time with you. http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/26/autos/motor_world.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009012611

If you had any brains at all, you'd understand where your ideas are flawed. I can say this because you sound JUST like I did when I was about 18 or 19, almost to the letter. I used to be a sound believer in over-regulation and government control until I realized how certain things are meant to be regulated (electricity grids) while other things aren't (like 43 mpg). You think that there is a fuel economy switch that all the tens of thousands of engineers across the world refuse to turn on because they are all secretly scheming with eachother. Yes, we're all trying to get you and kill captain planet for good. It scares me that people like you with no understanding of economics, science, and engineering are going to be making all the big decisions for the next 2 years. Here I thought, "what could be worse than Bush's first two years"? Well... here it is folks.... the death of any type of "fun" motoring, the death of freely deciding what cars you want based on your ability to judge for yourself what is appropriate and the introduction of a command style automotive economy. Read the article, and make a legitimate comment based on rational logic (if you can).

Its funny how you guys are going back and forth with extremes when in five to ten years history will show that the truth lay somewhere in the middle.

Fact-The average American is for immediate gratification.A big SUV or truck is more appealing then a small economy car to most people. That's why government regulations become law after a while.We really don't care if we depend on foreign oil. If enough of us did that would have dictated the auto market long ago. So then government needs to step in because the average citizen refuses to take any reponsibility.I know plenty of people that decided to trade in their small car for an SUV recently because the price of gas dropped below $2.00 a gallon. That's an example of the problem. Of course conservatives say that's what the market will bare so it's just fine.Unfortunately it does not reduce our dependancy on foreign oil when people go out and to this crap.So we can bitch all we want. The answer is we brought this on ourselves.At least we will still be able to decide what fuel effecient car we should buy.

I'm no expert at anything but in cali I seen 2 year old cars that don't pass the emission control and you have to spend a lot of money fixing whatever the tech tell you it need to be done and at the 3rd try if it doesn't pass they take it away...and not everybody can afford to have their cars in the mechanic because some politician is kissing a$$ to a group who gave them some money for campaign. The market should dictate the route for the industry not the government if people really care about emissions F150 wouldn't be the best selling vehicle in the US and prius would've be in the top 10...

Driving on public roads is not a right, it is a privilege. People in the US seem to look at it the other way around.

I love how when there are new threads on auto spies about a new American car everyone bashes the crap out of them. Now that the president signs a law that helps the foreign auto makers and in turn helps our planet and our lives, everyone begins crying "noooooo......what about detroit, what should we do?!?!" Everyone here is a phony...American cars that the public can afford suck, i'm not talking about the high line vehicles, i'm talking about cars like the hhr, the pacifica, the seabring, the pt cruiser. Any law that makes it harder for these pointless cars to survive is a great law.

MBKing,
Those cars are slated to die, if not already dead. If California is allowed to make their whimsidaisical MPG regs, then we will all be driving prius or smaller cars. Cars by comittee, thanks to California, econazis and liberals.

Hey, California with all the liberals especially Hollywood just got what they wanted. Now that fewer people will be able to go to the movies, rent DVD's, etc... the liberal elite in Hollywood will not get their big paydays.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/26/autos/motor_world.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009012611

OK, maybe I don't know what I am talking about but hasn't this been done before with no problems? I seem to remember there were cars made just for California. And also, many states want to adopt the same restrictions not different ones so they would most likely be unified.

Finally, GM, Ford ,etc. deserve to go down for their short sightedness and greed. I mean, how much can you flood the market with large SUV's while not looking a few years out. Better fuel economy and lower emissions has always been happening and always will. The years during the Bush administration they basically fought hard against this normal trend of progress. Why stop progress for a few idiotic car companies that refuse to change? They are going to lay off people anyway and ship the jobs overseas like they have been doing. The last thing they care about is this country. Obama's approach seems to be one that more beneficial in the long run, and that is what most Americans have a problem thinking about, the future.

Oh, and all those bashing California, check to see what proportion California represents in population, economy and ethnicity.

First, if you knew the industry well (which I doubt you do from your comments), you'd know that even Detroit has been projecting $4/gallon gas for years now (I can only comment on the past few years from experience). A few idiotic car comanies eh? You mean Nissan/Toyota/Mercedes/BMW/GM/Ford/Dodge/Audi/Lexus/Infiniti/Hyundai(Genesis)? No one is debating the need to reduce our need on foreign oil, no one. Mind you, I'm an electrical engineer nerd, I like gadgets & technology but Im mindful of reality, logic & reasoning. Tax gasoline, GM has been advocating this for over a decade, if not longer. Ford has come out and publicly said this, even just recently (bill ford on Larry King). No one is saying tax to Euro levels (this isn't Europe, those high a taxes mess with the American can-do spirit) but it should be taxed so that when oil is $40 a barrel, gas should be around $2.70 a gallon (instead of the $1.85 it is right now). Lastly, you say that "they" don't care about this country... well I'd like to see you face to face so we could talk. AMERICAN companies don't care about AMerica, yea sure... the Japanese are. The Koreans are worried about our schools & roads... right. Get you eyes checked pal.

Neutral, I am guessing you were replying to my post. I will say this again, I believe the U.S. auto manufacturers are more concerned about lining their pockets than what is best for America. You bring up the Koreans and Japanese not caring about the U.S. but why should they? Their not Americans. Actually, they do care a whole lot about our economy, but again, just for $$$$. The point I was making is that what many of the things Obama is proposing will probably happen anyway, if not in his presidency but another. You said yourself the Big 3 projected gas prices to go up. So why didn't they start putting designs in the pipeline that were more efficient instead of trying to pump out more gas guzzling SUV's? Because they were greedy and shortsighted. No offense, but not for one second I think Detroit is producing some of the best cars on the road today. They have come a long way but damn, they are showing up to the party a little too late. As usual. Yes, many are advocating the gas tax. Even the Big 3. I would like to see it happen myself. I agree with "medrad"'s post too. There should be very limited government aid going to Detroit. Let things shake out the way they should be.

Only Detroit can kill Detroit. Detroit is on its deathbed because of the gas guzzling junk they've produced the last several decades. I don't like Obama, but Detroit got this far into their financial mess without his help.

Do you think things are going to get better with this BS? Seriously now, people were pissed about the Big3 going to washington for a Loan? Try the Big3 going to washington for the next 20 years to cover their massive losses thanks to their inability to sell cars the MARKET demands. Expect Mercedes to get screwed too. No more S550, S600, SL63, etc. (Hey ive been all about MB since I was a little kid, it kills me too). By the way, Detroit is producing some of the best vehicles on the road today, you can't sit there and tell me that the Malibu is worse than the Camry or the Tahoe is worse than a Sequoia. Pound for Pound, dollar for dollar, mpg for mpg and hp for hp, any logical, informed American would choose Detroit over Japan or Korea. I can't say the same for Germany, not because of fuel economy or build quality, but lets face it. Detroit has nothing to fight the S class / 7series, etc.

Neutral:

I have a couple questions for you.

1- If Detroit Products are on par with the Japanese Products, why does Detroit need a bailout ?
2- Considering the NA consumer has free choice over which product to purchase, how is it that the Japanese have a sales lead over the NA Domestic manufacturer ?

3- Have you ever spent serious time in a German Vehicle {Even 3-Series or A3} ? Did not mean that disrespectfully.

Q3 is asked because i have heard many BIG 3 supporters screaming that the Detroit products are on Par with even the 5 -Series, A6 & E Class and i have spent many days in Rented Vehicles from Manufacturers on both sides of the Pond and I just cannot see the Equality that you guys see. Not in Interior Quality (Materials & Design) or Exterior Execution. All i see is Cosmetic Glue-ons and get the impression that a lot more effort is spent on marketing instead of R & D.

I applaud the ZR1 Powertrain and Chasis Engineering teams for their work and also the NEW CTS-V gets the same Plaudits however Interior Quality Downfalls mean i would not me walking into a GM dealership to order either.

What you have to understand is that there seems to be a growing Gap between the Havs' and the Have-nots and those that have are not going to spend their money on vehicles with Easily Spotable Shortfalls, they would rather spend a little more on something with near perfect Execution.

See the thing is this, all attempts from GM to sell me a Cadillac Escalade or CTS or XLR shows me a company with misplaced Goals. The BIG 3 business model seems to me to be "Make whatever we can and let the Marketing Department Loose with Hundreds of Millions of Dollars with the task of Selling the Vehicles "
Whereas it should be " Make the Absolute best Vehicle we can make and then let the Quality speak for itself"

1) Your bailout comment... cmon now. I'm not going to entertain that. 2) In certain segments, yes the Japanese have had a lead, but in those same segments where detroit has been lagging in the past, Detroit has been fighting back fiercly for the past few years. Look at 2007 vs 2008 Chevy Malibu sales, and compare its growth with that of the Camry or Accord (in the worst sales year, and worst economy since WWII/Depression). 3) I have been in German vehicles, I own won along with an American car. You will notice that in none of my posts do I belittle or make rash statements about japanese, German, or Korean vehicles, quite the contrary (unless there is seriously something wrong... that that Kia Soul or Nissan Cube thing). As for interiors, I see great things coming from (CTS, Malibu, Enclave, 2010Fusion/Mustang, 2010Lacrosse), but I see certain cheaper materials in....even German... Imports, namely (and I HATE to say this-Seriously) the new C-class & E-Class' center stack.

i own ONE, sorry

I95SPEEDINGTICKETS: I will never argue against the merits of the Europeans however I must say this. We (all of us) seem to be so short when it comes to memory of the past. A little over five years ago none of the Euros were doing that great as far as quality was concerned and only recently have they improved to the point that JD Power and others have pointed out that they are doing well now. Last time I checked several automakers world wide were asking for a handout included several Japanese companies. Toyota and Honda haven't asked yet but neither has Ford which has about the same capital as Toyota last I checked. I dont know how much money Honda has but I assume less than Toyota and Ford. I have had to pleasure of living in Europe for several years due to being the military in the early 90's Korea as well (but there cars sucked then) and the 3 series has been and still is the benchmark for its segment but you cant say that we a straight face for any other BMW at this time. The S class Merc is the standard bearer today but look at most of the other stuff they make and I would argue that alot of their stuff competes with itself. Do they really need a coupe and convertible for every segment? So as I do understand your points I respectfully disagree with them.

Ok Hell really is freezing over. Neutral said something I agreed with.LOL

Obama is a turd that needs to stick to playing basketball.

It is a historical mistake that the US government approved auto industry bailout for GM and chrysler...
They should be left alone to the market which will define who should deserve to stay on in the market.

Then no more regulation. It should be up to the market to decide what people want to buy.

Well fellow comrades in CA, you can have any color Hybrid Trabant you want. As long as ve in the STATE(legislature) feel the color does not represent the idea that you are owning a environment destroying, freedom representing, capitalist ideal representing CAR. Yes, Ve in CALLIFORNIA are only doing what is best for da people, even if they do not know vwhat that is. Oh, and you collector ca owners, ve will be coming for your ride too. Soon!!!

Ok. lets face it; The improvements that have been spurred on by the environmental laws first laid down as impossible to meet by CA back in the late 1960's have worked. For sure in CA and the rest of the country, as well as the world, have benefited as well. I believe that we do have to continue to push the standards even tighter. BUT, right now is not the time to be putting this kind of pressure on automakers, not just ours Big 3, but all the makers who sell vehicles in CA, and the entire US. We need to focus on rebuilding our economy first. As well as the auto industry before we lay on them more stringent requirements that will need development dollars currently not available in order to bring the technologies needed to fruition, especially within the accelerated time frames that CA will want. Otherwise, in order for the industry to meet the proposed requirements, some of the vehicles a manufacturer currently sell in CA will simply have to be removed from the market so that the remaining line of vehicles can meet the new standard. What about the vehicles sold in neighboring states and driven in CA; how will that be handled? I can see this happening: The new CA standard is now in place. You live in AZ,and purchase a large SUV because you feel it best meets the needs of your lifestyle. Then your company transfers you to there office in CA. Not only do you have the stress of the move, but once you get here you will have to sell this vehicle and purchase another smaller, CA standard meeting vehicle because since your year SUV falls withing the new standard, it will simply not be allowed here? Yes, base on how our current inept and head in the sand CA state govt works, I can foresee this situation actually happening. SAD.

We're talking about 2016... 9 years from now. Not the next redesign, the one after that. That's something like 7 years to figure out how to build a more efficient car that they would have to have a handfull of years later anyway. There is no reason that they shouldn't be able to do it.

Wow... I agree with TheSailor... strongly agree even... scary.

Obama is great but I view this as the first mistake of his administration. Individual states should have no special rights in matters of national scope and importance. State mandates (provincial mandates in Canada) should be restricted to issues concerning only problems peculiar to particular states; otherwise, the nation becomes balkanized and weaker in the process.

EnnNorak, again pollution is a huge problem in the state of California, and that is exactly what they are doing... trying to ameliorate a problem in the State. Car emissions are harmful and are the cause of most of the pollution in California, not factories as someone else in this thread claimed. We should really start pushing emerging technologies. It would be great to see more EV cars on the road... it doesn't matter if the electricity is generated by coal, nuclear, solar, whatever... it would still be a dramatic improvement for California.

Pollution is a problem even is less populous states. Just this morning I heard on the radio that the ENTIRE STATE of Wisconsin is under an air quality warning... that's right, Wisconsin. There aren't even that many people in Wisconsin (comparatively speaking). I've always believed that the limit of your personal freedom is when your actions begin to create concrete negative effects on others, i'd say statewide pollution so severe as to warn people with asthma to stay indoors is a significant negative effect. We need to make sacrifices in order to maintain a healthy society, even if we don't want to. If everyone is left to our own devices then we will not make the necessary changes. It's just human nature.

The question is, what triggers an "air quality warning". Compare air quality from 1975 to today. Theres about a 200x improvement. Can't complain about non-GHG from automobiles in this day'n'age, its called engine management controls and 3way catalytic converters.

Let's use a little bit of logic & reasoning here. The most logical way (tried & proven) to get higher mileage vehicles on the road (and in essence, reduce GHG) is high price fuel. So, if California wants higher fuel economy and less GHG emissions, then they should tax fuel in California. They get the revenues which they desperately need, people are more mindful of their purchasing habits, and the simpleton environmentalists who think that GLOBAL warming is contained to California will be satisfied that their CO2 emissions are down. Naaa.... This is too logical, won't ever happen. Political suicide, so Here's "I'm different & totally solution oriented" Obama taking the political sissy-step like so all other "conformist" politicians. On the surface, it looks good, but upon analysis, GHG emission limits are dumb. CAFE needs only to be a backstop, 30mpg/20mpg, cars/trucks. The rest should be up to Gas Tax Revenue, it works for Europe, it works for Japan, etc. High gas prices in Summer2008 showed that people buy efficient cars when gas is expensive, so I ask: Do we want to pay $4/gallon with oil @ $130/barrel, or $3-4/gallon with oil @ $45 a barrel? Do you want that money going into US coffers for all these expensive projects, or do you want that money going into Saudi Coffers? Make the logical decision, even DinamoR should be able to do so.

if was obama... i would follow the footsteps of Roosevelt... I believe that if you pay manufactures to not produce for a while for a great example how Roosevelt paid farmers not to grow... then the value of cars should slowly begin to recover. Im not an economist but I would say that this should be a good first step forward

— neutral hit it on the head.

R.I.P Fossil Fuel V8+: i'm a petrolhead, wheelnut, whatever you want to call me.. I luv my grunty and torquie V8s. I will surely miss you. The thing is, i also like my cigarettes and booze... do you see a similarity? is the conventional car / industry a bad habit that we need to drop? Don't you think that the whole auto-industry is due for an overhaul?